The Dating Detectives - The Stalker: Part 2

Episode Date: February 3, 2025

In this two part episode, Mackenzie and Hanna delve into a harrowing story that left them both shaken—and they’re pretty sure you’ll feel the same. January is Stalking Awareness Month, and today’s guest, Carrie, shares the terrifying reality of her experience with a dogfish who wouldn’t take no for an answer.After meeting Jack on a dating app, what started as mild interest turned into a nightmare of manipulation, harassment, and stalking. Carrie’s raw, emotional journey reveals the lengths some people will go to exert control and the gaps in the legal system that fail to protect victims of stalking.From unsettling red flags on a first date to technology hacks, home intrusions, and relentless harassment, this episode explores the chilling escalation of Jack’s behavior. Carrie’s story highlights the need for more awareness, education, and legal reform to protect stalking victims before it’s too late.Interested in helping Carrie get access to a local PI or other resources that can help keep her safe? Click here to donate to Carrie's fundraiser!Click here to join our Patreon! For only $5 a month you will get 2 extra episodes a month, monthly virtual live events, and access to our community page!If you've been dogfished and want to share your story on the show, email [e-mail] or contact us through our website using this linkThis episode of The Dating Detectives is sponsored by Hello Fresh. For listeners of the show, HelloFresh is offering 10 free meals when you go to HelloFresh.com/TDD10***The following Program contains names, places and events that have been anonymized or fictionalized for the purposes of protection and safety. The following Program is provided for entertainment purposes only and any commentary from the hosts are strictly conjecture and should not be held as making any definitive statements about the truth or identity of any particular individuals or circumstances.If you or a loved one are involved in an abusive relationship, please call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7233 for support.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

The following program contains names, places, and events that have been anonymized or fictionalized for the purposes of protection and safety. The following program is provided for entertainment purposes only and any commentary from the hosts are strictly conjecture and should not be held as making any definitive statements about the truth or identity of any particular individuals or circumstances. If you or a loved one are involved in an abusive relationship, please call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-733 for support. Hello, everybody. Oh, it's recording. No, you're not. Y'all know I don't math, so the countdown didn't work out. I'm just kidding.

Sorry. Hi, happy Monday. Hello, my love. We're back for part two. So last week, today is going to be the second half of last week's episode. Hannah, will you recap last week's for us, please? Yes, definitely go back and listen. Carrie is our guest.

She told us the beginning of this story. And the hard thing about this story is that there's really nothing. I think Carrie could have done differently to change her situation. She's doing everything right. Yeah, she, and even if you don't do everything right, it doesn't mean that you deserve any kind of abuse or harassment. But it's nice to know that there are things you can do to prevent it. And stalking is so tricky because it's just easy.

It's easy for someone to start doing it, and it's very hard to stop it. So this is a stocking case. Carrie met a guy online. She is divorced, has a son. She lives alone. She meets a guy on, I think it was Facebook dating. Yeah. The name is Jack.

They talk does not give him her address, her location. She doesn't give him a ton of personal information. They go on a date. They meet there. It's fine. She said his picture was like, you know, probably from 10 years before. Like he was not catfishing per se, but, age fishing. And so she wasn't super into him, but she was like, you know, I don't hate him.

Date him till you hate him. Then, yeah, right. Then he sent her an engagement ring link via text in between the first date and the second date. And she was like, wasting no time. Like red flag. That's red flag. Big red flag. But then he was like, oh, I didn't mean to. Like, I didn't, I didn't, that was an accident. And she is a, you know, a very strong-willed person. and she's done so much for her community. She's very religious. And she just was like, I commit to my word. I'm going to go on a second date with him, even though I'm not sure how I feel.

They go on this date. They meet at a mall. She drives to the mall, meets at the mall. She does drive with him to where they go on the date. But, like, he didn't pick her up at her house. He tells her that her- moves. Yes, no, she's doing everything right.

He tells her that her religious expectations for him, even though he had previously said that he was totally the same, were too high. He was like, no man is going to meet what you're expecting. And she was like, you know, thank you so much for telling me because then we're probably not a match. And she kindly said, okay, well, then this probably won't work. He freaks out, starts like crying, starts getting angry. Temper tantrum, toddler.

Like, toddler. Major toddler to the max. He drives her back. She's stonewalling. You know, I was trying to think of the word for it when we were talking. but it's just when you're kind of like, I'm just going to be really calm and nice so I can get out of the situation.

You know, she's like, oh, it's okay. Quiet as possible. Just like, okay. Yeah, she has to be his mom and his therapist. Yeah, smile and wave, boys. She gets out of the car, goes back to her car. He drives away like a bad out of hell, like skitting, like angry driving. And he was driving like angrily.

That's it. That's the last time she saw him. And then I think he called her because he was so upset that night. and she kind of talked to him for a little bit and then was like, okay, hon, you're going to be okay. I got to go to church tomorrow. Good night. And then the stalking began.

And he started showing up around her in other cars and like doing the same kind of driving recklessly moves that she identified as him. You know, your femme tuition is good when she knew. She noticed, oh yeah, at first there were things going on with her phone. She was like, why is my phone like losing battery, acting weird? And where we left off is her coming home and realizing that one of her pillows, which she usually has the design facing out, is facing backwards. And while that might seem like something that's small,

I think a lot of us will relate to the idea that like, no, you know where your stuff is. But also, you know how you like that. Most of us also at the same time are like, no, there's no way. That's totally me. And we go to, we're like, okay, that was just a thing. That was just me. You're like, there's no way.

Yeah. So the rest of her story is, it's, wait to you guys hear it. But also real quick, before we hear from Carrie for the second part of her story, make sure you join us on the Patreon. It's $5 a month. And we're going to be keeping updates there. And we're going to be doing book club, which, by the way, January was stalking awareness month.

So it was perfect that this episode was started in January. And so we're going to be talking about Mike Proctor's book, antidote for a stalker. So make sure you join us. What's the date, Hannah? We're going to do it on. We literally just picked this and I already forgot. February, the last Sunday in February, February, 23rd.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so February 23rd, join us for a book club. The link to our Patreon's and the show notes. So you can join us there. Carrie recommended Mike Proctor. Yeah, she's spoken to him. So we were like, let's up. And I'm trying to see, I want to see if we can get him to talk with us.

I know. So I'm trying to connect with him. But if not, it would be really great to, The book is big, but it's not, it's a, it's a nonfiction book so you can like kind of start in the middle and, you know, pinpoint different areas you want to learn about. Pro tip, don't tell. There's not an audiobook, but on our Patreon, I'm going to read it and post the recording. So you can listen to that. Are you ready to get into Carrie's story? Let's, I think we should jump into it. We have to. Yeah, okay. Let's do it. Let's do it. And then by the next day, I thought exactly what you said before, I had decided to call the police because I said, this is just we. weird to me because I don't do that. And my friends who know me, they will tell you that I am very

much like in your, in the place, in its place kind of person. And that ended up being the first of many times that he broke into my home. And my house was broken into, but didn't look like a break in. So the police couldn't do anything, but they did do reports before I found the door that this guy was literally getting at my house. And it even had latches on it that were sort of. of like an L shape. So my door that was being broken into now, I know which one it was. It is an out swinging door. Those are very hard to secure with an in swinging door. You can use a jam bar. There are there are things for dead bolts that they're like little flaps that you can get because my doors all had dead bolts and regular locks on the door. But when it's out swinging,

you have no recourse. No, exactly. So, I'm now renting my house at this point in this other area. And my landlord had these other things put on. So there's just certain ones that can be put on out swinging doors. So they're extra latches. But they were just like these L-shaped things that just kind of sit into like a circle. If you can get the picture. I don't know if I'm painting it right.

Yeah, yeah. It's not there's not like something to hold it necessarily other than that. It's just you swing it and it drops into the. this thing and that's all it is. And then you pop it up and it swings out and it's that kind of thing. So I figured out that the door that he was getting into my house was this door that had these latches on that was the out swinging door because I think what he was doing was he was undoing the deadbolt. He was undoing the lock and then he was either sticking us like a ruler or something and popping those locks up. Yep. Yeah. And so I had no idea.

until September 10th. And I remember this day because it was a really good day at church. And I went home and I was just la la la, la, you know, doing these things. And then I go in the bathroom. And every other hook is off of my shower curtain. Just enough to be noticeable. Yes. Oh, so that's like sadistic.

He's trying. Yes. And so that's obviously not something. He wants you to know that you were there. He was there. Yes, exactly. And then the other thing that he did, which this is, this was the most. I don't even know. This is emotional again. I'm getting emotional. This part is emotional for me because I didn't

notice too much of anything else, but I ended up sitting in my recliner after church and I was reading my Bible. And I'm like, you know what? Let me go get my brother, my who passed away. Let me go get his Bible. And I just want to look at it and stuff. So I go get his Bible, which is in my room and it's on one of my shelves. And I open it up. And there were the first few pages. were ripped out of my brother's Bible. And as you can imagine, that I don't even know how to explain it. But I think because this guy obviously knew God was very important to me, those kinds of things were important. I don't know if he realized that that was my brother's Bible.

He probably did. But if you open any kind of Bible, there's a page that is like the cover, like the first page that's kind of a nicer page. And then there's like the topic. topical and you know how to find the books of the Bible so those pages were the pages that were ripped out so it was very obvious that I would not have done that because my brother's Bible was intact and how I know that was months earlier I had been using that Bible to study for a retreat that I was going to speak at and using that Bible and I know the pages were there and so I knew at

that point there was someone who had been in my home again and I don't know if it was that day or what day it was. It usually was my house would be the target, usually when I was at church. And so I started just praying. He knows you're going to be gone every Sunday or whatever it is. And so I start praying and I'm like, God, you have to show me what door is breaking. He's breaking into this. So I figured out, I went over to that door.

And see, I didn't use that door to go out of my house. I used my other doors. And so I didn't realize that when the landlord had installed these other latches to it, I didn't realize that's where he could break in because I'm thinking it's safe because of the hook, you know, the hook latches or whatever. Well, I go over to it and it's loose as anything. These latches are loose as anything. And they were tight as anything when they were first installed. And so I realized it was that door that he was breaking into. So what I did, this is actually really funny.

I went out and got some clear gorilla tape, and I taped that sucker on the outside and the inside. I put clear tape on the deadbolt. So I thought, you come up to that door again and try to break in my house. You are not getting in. And I taped that thing. She taped her door shut. I love it. It's like a chaperone at a field trip.

Did it help? It's it because I will say that was the last time that I know someone was in my house. And so, you know. That's like a horror movie. Literally what happens in horror movies. When you think of, when people think of stalking, I think many people don't realize how scary that is. There is so much fear. Even if you know this person and you've met this person, whatever.

And it's someone that is intruding in your space without your knowledge and your safe. which is supposed to be your home or your vehicle or whatever. It is so intrusive and that fear, you just have this like, this fear. Like you're angry, but you are just like, someone was in my personal bubble. And they're so close to you. And that is so, it is the scariest feeling you will ever feel. It is so scary. It's powerless, too.

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TDD10 one item per box with active subscription. Free meals applied as discount on first box and new subscribers only, but it varies by plan. That's up to 10 free hello fresh meals. Just go to hellofresh.com slash. TDD10FM. HelloFresh is America's number one meal kit. Thank you, HelloFresh, for sponsoring this episode. So in November, then, I did decide to file for a protection from abuse, knowing that it may be risky doing that.

But I called the domestic violence services, which I love them. We don't talk enough about those. I know. And they are a great resource, especially for someone going through stalking. they, in my area anyway, they were not dealing with stalking until I went to them and they started hearing my story and realizing that they're very deficient in that area. Yes, there needs to be more education. For sure. And all around with everybody. And so I decided to file a protection from abuse

and domestic violence services has lawyers that you go to and they're kind of connected, partnered. And so I was talking to this lawyer and she said, well, I don't think you're going to get this PFA. And so I was really upset because I thought, well, I'm going to file it. And at that point, I believe domestic violence services helped me the very first one. You get a temporary. And then the second hearing is to be the final hearing. And so the domestic violence services lady came with me, went to court. The judge heard my story. She granted me a temporary PFA. Oh, good. So, but when I was talking to the lawyer, she told me there's no way that you'll get this BFA. so I'm not going to represent you.

So I thought, Oh, okay. And Kate, very much. Did she say why just because you didn't have enough evidence? Exactly. That's exactly what she said. Even though you had like the written threats on your life, that's not enough?

Yes. Apparently that wasn't enough for her because a PFA, at least in the state, says that you have to have an intimate partner relationship. And of course, we did not have an intimate partner relationship. Praise the lamb. Huh. Yes, very much so. So she didn't represent me.

So I went to a private lawyer and I started asking him and he's like, well, I agree with her. You're not going to get this. And so, you know, I hate to be the bear of bad news, but you're not going to get this. So I just thought, okay, well, here we go. I'm like game on like Donkey Kong and I'm going to represent myself. So that is what I did. Because at this point, whether I get it or I don't get it, this I'm going to call him

stalker now. He will know that I'm filing for a PFA. So I, to me, yeah, exactly. And I thought, okay, so if I don't get it, you know, he's going to know and he's going to come after me. If I do get it, he's going to know and then he's going to come after me. But at least if I have it, I have some basis that the police can literally arrest him on the spot compared to going to have to get a warrant for his arrest. And they will be able. So I've made it very easy for the police, not necessarily for myself because it's just kind of a piece of paper. But all that to say, here I am. Now, the second week, he doesn't show up.

The officer I'm dealing with, she says that he got served and he never showed up. So we had to go to a third week. So the third week, go to court, he doesn't show up. The judge says there can't be a hearing because he never got served. And at this point, I have an email that I'm showing the court clerk. And I'm like, he got served three weeks ago. And I said, so I know he's been served. And she's like, well, if you need to go to the sheriff's office because they're the ones

who deal with that. So go down to the sheriff's office. Of course, I'm looking all professional because I'm representing myself thinking we're going to have a hearing. I'm going to have to talk to the judge. And so go to the sheriff's office. I walk in and there's just one lady there. And she's like, can I help you?

And I'm like, can you please help me? Yes, please. I said, there's this issue with this PFA and I need someone to look into this. And so she goes and gets one of the deputies who then calls another deputy. So we're all talking about this. In the meantime, I'm telling them all of the stuff that I found on this guy because I found so many things. So many things at that point. There is actually an article that a newspaper wrote about this guy 10 years ago that he has another victim.

Oh. A girl that he dated. That's what we need, baby. Then the fiancé. She actually lived in my area. and so he had literally snuck into her house apparently one night and this is after they were broken up and was in her shower waiting for her to come home and beat her up and held her captive and so why are he in jail exactly that's what that's what that's like that's like that's literally the movie psycho like I'm

yes yes this is what I'm talking about and remember but this is 10 years ago was that hard for you to find No, well, it's interesting how... Like, how'd you find it? So there's always a story to my story. So even before I decided to file a PFA, I didn't think I qualified for it. So I was just searching, searching, searching. So I have a good friend who she's a big prayer warrior. So I said to her, I was like, please pray for me.

I'm going to be trying to file PFA. I'm going to call domestic violence services. And so she's like, I'm on it. I'm going to let my ladies know. She had a lady's Bible study. So she lets her ladies know. So one of her ladies goes to work. She starts talking about my story.

And she's like, yeah, there's this girl who's a friend of my friend who is being stalked. And he's from this certain area. And there's a lady in her office. And she's like, that's funny. That's what my ex did. And then she's like, yeah, and he's doing this. And she goes, that's funny. That's what my ex did.

And so my friend's friend said, can you tell me what his name is? This is why we gossip. Gossip saves lies. Yeah. Literally, this is such a good example of good gossip. It is. It is. So she asked her, can you please share his name?

She sends it to my friend. My friend sends it to me. And I said, that's the guy. Oh, my God. She was like, unbelievable. She's like, this girl dated him. And so at that point, we arranged for us to have a phone conversation. So we have this conversation. She's telling me all kinds of things.

She's like, you know, before we started dating, she's like, he sent me flowers to my house. And we hadn't even met yet. And I didn't understand that initially. But now I understand that he was already into her life before he was in her life. Like he knew where she lived. Correct. Correct. He was, ooh, he's a creep. Yes, very much so. So I'm in the sheriff's office. giving them the lowdown on this this whole scenario. So they finally look at me and they're like, well, who is this? And they point out this paper. And I'm like, that's me. And they're like, we thought you were an attorney. Wow. I was like, I thought that was hilarious because I just thought, like, I am representing myself. So I'm glad I looked the part at least. So that was the third week.

I made friends with the sheriff's office. After that, stayed in touch with them by the fourth week, the one sheriff's deputy that I was in touch with, he said to me, because I said, am I going to have a hearing? And he said, you're going to have a hearing. So this judge, he heard my story. He asked me some questions. And he decided to give me the PFA for three years, which is the maximum. Praise. Praise the Lord. Oh, my goodness. And so he, I was so grateful for that because I thought, here, this guy is playing. He knows how to play the system. And I knew that. He sure does. And he knows exactly what, like, line to reach before it's too far. Wow. Exactly. Exactly. So that happened. That was like my Christmas miracle of 2022. And after that, the court hearings for his harassment charge started. And we went to court in February. The district court level could not do the hearing because he never showed up to that. But somehow he got a Zoom link to show up that way.

but claimed that he had had an accident and that he could hardly walk. And yet the police officer told me, yeah, but on the screen, you could see him walking around the area in his room or wherever he was on the Zoom. Welcome to my job. Yeah. Yeah. Frikin liar. Exactly. Exactly.

Exactly. So at that point, too, victim services, the lady was preparing me. And she was like, hopefully after today you can leave and you can feel better and things will be, you know, you'll go home, Scott free. And I said, no, I said, that's not going to happen. And she was like, well, why? You know, and I said, because things haven't stopped. And so why would I anticipate that they're going to stop now? I think I became the challenge for this guy, honestly, because I started to stand up for myself.

Because you can imagine his probably unbelief that what? She represented herself and she got the PFA. So this guy doesn't really know who he's messing with. Did he still contact you during this point? Like he's texting you at all or just hacking you? There were, it was mostly hacking. There were different phone calls. But again, my phone is set up that if you're not a contact, you're not in my phone.

You know, you don't get to contact me. But he's not like communicating with you about this ongoing. No. Because he's not allowed to. No, he's not allowed to. Right. If he does. But if, but they can't prove that he's hacking you.

So he's basically like effing around from like, and they can't prove it's him. And I'm still not over this hacking situation. situation. Like, is he anonymous? Like the hacker group? Like, he's obviously very good at it. I'm so interested in that. Yeah. It's just been a crazy, a crazy, crazy road and dealing with the police. And I went to every court hearing that he was scheduled. And they would tell me, well, you don't have to go to that. And I'm like, no, I do want to go to this. Because when I'm an advocate for other people, I want to know what happens at these things. So I end up going to them. So one of the very first, first ones that now it went from the district level now up to the county level. And so the DA,

I was talking to her and I said, you know, I want to come. She's like, you don't have to come, but she's like, I'll show you a courtroom. And I'm like, I saw the courtroom like four times back when I got my TFA. Yeah, it's not like I want a tour. I want to sit there. Exactly. So she's like, well, he's probably not going to show up. And so there's no need for you to come, but I can show you the courtroom. So I brought a friend with me and we were, we walked down to where victim services and then we walked down to the courtroom and we're inside the courtroom and the DA is, is explaining the different areas of what everything is and the victim services is standing. We're kind of like inside the door standing side by side. And so I'm on the inside. My friend is next to me. The DA is

kind of in front of me and then the victim services is in front of my friend. And so the door is there, people are coming, kind of coming in and out, but you can tell there's not much going on there. So all of a sudden, he walks in. And I'm like, there he is. And I was like, welcome. Welcome to your party. Exactly. So what happened?

So I was like, I couldn't believe my eyes because they're literally telling me he's not going to be there. You know, he's not going to show us all the stuff. But they are convinced that this guy, you know, he doesn't have to be there, all the things. And so I was so happy, though, to see because I just thought, I want this guy to see me and look me in the eyes because I'm like, I want to show him. I am not afraid of you. And, you know, yes, you're doing these things to me, but I'm going to stand up for myself. I'm not, I am not the victim here. And that's really why I wanted him to see me.

And so the DA notices, you know, and realizes that he's there at that point. And so she's like, let's go out into the hallway. So we go out into the hallway. well, doesn't he just follow us out there? Well, he is like, he's literally like, it's like a shark, you know, when they're going for their bait. He's like sharking around us. And she finally says, let's go into this other private room over here.

And it's close to where the courtroom is, but it's this other private area. And so we go into this little room and we talk for probably about 40 minutes or so. And I'm just asking them different things. And so we finally go out. And he's literally standing outside the courtroom where he probably was standing right by the room listening to us. It's crazy. He's still stalking you at his own hearing. Yeah, exactly.

So anyway, so they're very protective of me at this point because of having the PFA and they're going to protect me. So they always call the sheriff's office. They escort me to my car because you don't know what these people are capable of. And so at that point, we're getting ready to head back the hallway to where victim services is. And the DA says, I'll be right back. And so we go up and she then meets us a little bit later. And she says, she says, so she's like, I might have lied a little bit. She's like, I told him he had to go sit in the courtroom.

And we bust up laughing. And I told her, I said, that right there, you bossing him around, I said, was enough for me to want to come today. But the court hearings went on and on and on for, so he was charged in October 31st, and it went on until November 7th of 2023, where he got charged probation for a year. And so that was herders were harassment? Like, yes, he got, he has a harassment charge and amounts to basically a lot of nothing because if you know anything, it's nothing. So what?

He just has to like check in with a probation officer and maybe not do anything else. That's exactly. That's exactly what he has to do. He could go to break into your house and go to his probation officer and be like, okay. Yeah, exactly. He can make it there by lunch. Yep. And because I got so desperate last January, a guy ended up coming and banging on my door late at night.

I don't know if it was him. I don't know if it was somebody else. Finally, the church that I worked for, the cameras caught it. because I lived across the street from where I worked. And they didn't have cameras at the time when I first was hired there and the stalking first happened later on, maybe a year later, they finally got cameras. Well, we caught the guy, a guy walking up toward my house and then banged on my door late at night and I was in my bedroom.

So I heard him bang on my door. And at this point, I bought a gun actually and I carry. you. And so this is a protection for myself. And so hurt the guy. My neighbor who was next to me, she had a ring camera. And I asked her, I think it was the next day because it was pretty late at night. I asked her the next day. I said, did you get any coverage of a guy walking past your house? And so she's like, no, there's nothing. So that means he banged on my door and then he ran behind my house through the neighbors and back the other street and out the door, you know, out. that way. And so that happened. So after all these things were happening and the police are trying to be helpful, but kind of dismissing me because it just sounds crazy and we don't know

how to deal with this phone stuff and, you know, just really not. I mean, I literally went to the point of contacting the FBI because I thought, well, maybe they will help me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. security because they would know, well, guess what? I have a guy who is a friend of mine who was, he's retired from the FBI. I had submitted, you have to submit a forum online. They will not contact you. He contacted his people. I just said, look, can you just contact your people and see what is happening if they can help me? And so he contacted them. And he said, unfortunately, they can't help you unless you get money stolen. That is the one blessing in disguise, I guess, is that I didn't get money stolen. But I've spent thousands of

and thousands of dollars trying to secure myself. Right. Everything. Exactly. And also McKenzie, what you said earlier, he's doing everything up to the point of he's going, he's towing that line. And then he knows if he crosses it, he's in trouble. But if he stays back, he knows he ain't going to get in trouble. Because he knows that he'll just get a slut.

He's not doing enough. And okay, so also I want to talk about how you said the cops are like, you know, you just, there's nothing we can do. cops are so limited. They are to minimize a situation so that it can go to court and the court can deal with it, right? They're to do their job out on the streets, but the cops, there's nothing they can do with a stalking situation when it comes to cyber stuff because they don't know. There's no training. There's no education. And there's very, very, very, very few police departments know how to handle it when someone comes in and says, I'm being stalked online or someone is harassing me online.

they write it down but they're like what are we supposed they don't have the resources and they're at the local level they're not trained on that and at this it's 2025 like we need to start getting trained on that our children are being affected with the bullying and everybody being online it has something has to happen because the stalking that this guy is doing this the cyber stocking that he's not he knows he's not going to get in trouble because there's not enough there's not enough resources to catch him and he knows yes yes and he's very well and he's very very good at it. I have another podcast recommendation for you.

It's called You Probably Thinketh This Stories About You. And if you are someone who wants more dating detectives content during the week and have to wait, this is something you can do that will fill that void. So the host, Brittany, has her own dogfish story. And the first season, she takes you through it in depth. So it starts with the whirlwind romance, with, you know, her, quote, soulmate. And then she interviews other women who were affected by him and analyzes the pattern of manipulation he used. Then she goes through her experience of healing and recovery.

And it's really interesting and good and in-depth. It hit number one on Apple and Spotify in its first season. And now its second season deals with other stories similar to that, including two women from Ireland, finding friendship in the wake of a traumatic relationship, which we love stories like that. Each story spans a couple episodes, so it really gets in deep. And it's just a really raw, achingly human story is how it's described. But I really feel that it's like finds the beauty and the mess.

And she's a really great narrator who talks a lot about stuff we like. So get some more of this topic. It's not your typical true crime story. You probably think this story is about you. It's available anywhere you get podcasts. And you should let us know what you think if you go listen to Brittany. When we first were talking and met and all the things he said, two things stand out to me of what he said that he was good at cars and computers. And I thought, yep, I'm sure that you are.

And his family owns like an automotive place. And so I'm sure he probably steals people's cars to come to the area. I've been trying to tell the police there are cars that he drives like this big yellow Jeep Rubicon type vehicle. And so you can't miss it. You can't miss it. So he's not going to come in that vehicle. I was thinking about that. I was thinking about why he had another car.

I was like, and does he have a lot of money with like, is he getting all these lawyers? But he just knows he needs it to get away with what he's doing. Yeah. It makes sense. Yes. Yes. Exactly. And one of the very frustrating things that I was told by the first police officer who was a woman,

she finally said to me, he doesn't know where you live. He doesn't know your address. and she said something else. And I finally said to her, I said, is it going to take something happening to me or something even worse to happen to me for you to understand what I am dealing with? Someone has to die at an intersection before they will put up a red light. Yes, exactly. Every time. And so when that incident happened in January where the guy was banging on my door, I got so desperate that I decided to reach out to the author of this book. I found one book online that was called antidote for a stalker.

And it's by a detective Mike Proctor. Oh, I've heard of him. Yes. And you should contact him, honestly. I think he would be such a great resource for everybody. He is now retired, but he's kind of old school. But he has solved plenty of stalking cases. And he ended up actually calling me at work one day.

And he's like, I never call victims. And I'm thinking, why are you calling me? you know but again it was just a god thing that he called me i start telling him the different things that i have encountered from blinds being turned to the shower curtain to my pillow and he said of course he did that he said those are the things that they do he said they will go into your bedroom into the bathroom into the kitchen those are the areas that they focus on because those are the areas that we spend the most time those are the living areas yes yes and so i have have sort of become friends with this guy. He started to talk with some of the police and he has been

a huge help. His book, if nothing else, if you want to know more about stalking cases, he educates people on stalkers and there's different types of stalkers. There's, you know, what you think of as the regular stalker. There's the ones that are like the guy I'm dealing with, you know, where I think he's taking stuff out of my house that are like trophies. And I wouldn't be surprised. Those are dangerous ones. Yes. And I would not be surprised if someday when I'm living years from now, and this is hopefully in my past, that I wouldn't get mailed some of the things that I have. Yep. He took from my house because I just have that feeling about him. So mark my words. Because he hasn't gotten what he wanted yet. He doesn't have your fear. Yes. Yes. Exactly. Exactly.

So he sentenced him to a year of probation at that point. We then go and I go, there's now, a county detective that's involved. This is now around the time where we're talking about my brother's Bible. I'm asking them if they can fingerprint it because I know that's a capability that people can do. But do you want to do it because, well, all these things don't really prove that it's him. So, you know, God forbid we should try to do something that's actually helpful. So we're talking after the sentencing hearing. They're like, let him go out, let him whatever, do his thing.

So again, we're talking for probably about 40 minutes. We're getting ready to say goodbye. We get into the elevator. And we're like on the fourth floor and we're going down. We go down one level. The doors open. And there he stands. And we meet eye to eye.

I'm just like if I would have known that I was going to see this guy eye to eye, I literally would have took a step forward toward him to show him again a stance of I'm not afraid of you. And so, you know, it's one of those things. It's those little power moves that feel. make me feel like power empowered. Oh yeah. You know, to show you that you might be still doing stuff to me, but your day's coming. So I, they say you have to start stalking the stalker, so to speak, you know, because you have to get into his, you do, you do. And so I started to research

this guy, Google him, you know, do all this different stuff because I had his birthday and all these different things. And so one night I couldn't sleep. And so I was like, you know, that I would often Google stuff at that point, you know, because it made me feel better. And so I started Googling him and I found some stuff that he had posted on some forum. And I don't remember what it was, but he posted some things about Jeffrey Dahmer, who was a serial killer. And then I actually found another woman who he got married to five years after the 10 year ago one and she filed a PFA. We have all each of us have filed PFAs. We're all saying the same things. And I recently met with a chief of police and another detective and another township. And I said to them, when you have three

unrelated women who are saying he's harassing me, he's stalking me, he's in my phones, he's anything, blah, blah, blah. You know, I'm like, what's, more do you actually need to, and now we've lost our opportunity with probation to try to dig deeper into this guy legally. And so I'm like, oh my gosh, you know, how much more frustrating can this get? So this stuff has never stopped. Now, in April, I got let go from the church that I was at. They had to eliminate my position. I'm not exactly sure of the why. That was honestly very devastating to me because it felt like my community was turning on me. And yet they weren't because I love where I was at and I love, I really love the job I had.

And I, you know, I just was really sad that it had to end. But I don't know if it was because of this situation because honestly, a lot of people get let go from their jobs because of this kind of situation. They don't want to affect the business. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly, exactly. And so started my new job in April, then through a course of events, ended up being able to move into a new place with another person, which was a much safer situation for me to be with somebody else in a more tight community, that kind of thing. I bet that felt a little bit safer when you like having someone live with you and just kind of. Did they feel, did they know your situation? Like were they a little scared? Like, don't put me in this.

No, I got to know her pretty well and we actually ended up being at the same job. And so we ended up starting to walk together. She needed to move out of her place. I thought if the right situation comes along, I will move. But I didn't know how it was going to happen because I didn't know someone who would want to set themselves up like that. So she agreed. Yes, she knew exactly. She was like, we will whoop his ass if he comes up in here.

You said it perfectly. That's probably, she was probably like, yep, we are going to rock his world. Yes, yes. And she is not afraid. You know, so I'm very thankful for that. Yeah. And so we moved in July of last year and everything was going good until the end of September. So when I moved, what qualified me for the address confidentiality program, which is through domestic violence services and through the state, was the fact that I was moving.

And so what that does, it basically takes your information out of public record so that people can't find you. And so I qualified for that because of the fact I was moving. The end of September, I ended up being able to get an appointment with the detective of the new township. We met Saturday morning. I came home Saturday a little early afternoon. Did not go into my car until Monday morning. And when I got in my car Monday morning, my steering rail was moved and my seat was moved. And my car.

And you know. So my car was in the garage. It was locked. Now I didn't have any alarms or anything on my garage door, which I had in my old place, which I kind of let my guard down. And that's one of the things that unfortunately I made that mistake, you know. And so now every time something happens, I then form a strategy and all the things. And so that literally was just a few months ago. In your new place.

In my new place. Yep. And actually when we were signing, so she was the one, my roommate was the one who she was contacting all of the different people that we were looking at places and stuff because I didn't want to risk it going through my phone because my phone was acting up and things like that. And I just, I didn't want that on my stuff. Yeah.

And so knowing that I would be in this program, just wanted to play it safe all around. So we talked to the landlord and then we decided this was the place that we wanted. And I get two texts that say, hi, Wendy. Wendy? Yeah, they say hi Wendy. So they didn't even use my name, Carrie. So here I am. And now they're using a name.

And they're saying, hi, Wendy, congratulations on your new move and where, blah, blah, blah. And they say all the stuff. And I'm thinking, so I asked my roommate and I said, did you get a text? And she said, no, I didn't get any text. So then I said to the landlord, I said, did you, do you send texts out or do you contact people? He said, no, and I showed him the text. He goes, that's weird.

And I was like, nope, I don't think it's weird because I know who it is. I know that it's someone now showing me that they know where I'm living. And so that's what makes. Exactly. So my car, then that happened. And again, it's not damaging. So I reported that to. Yes, exactly.

So, yes. How is he doing this? Your guess is as good as mine. So now at this current juncture, actually today, I've been taking screenshots. I've been making little videos. What my phone is doing now is it is completely shutting itself down, meaning, and the only way I found out that it was doing this was my weather app. That I bring, I wasn't getting texts weeks and weeks ago. I wasn't getting texts.

I wasn't getting phone calls. I'm like, what is going on? And again, I have an iPhone. I'm now using Google Voice. I also use the app called Signal because it's encrypted on my end and your end. Good apps to use to cover yourself. And so what started happening is I wasn't getting anything and I thought this is really strange. So I go and I'm just kind of looking around my phone and all the things.

And I go in my weather app and it comes up and it literally will say at the top, no internet connection. And yet it has the bars like I'm online and it has everything, you know, going on, but it's completely shutting my phone down. So it's completely shutting all my apps down. And so it's not completely shutting it black down. It's shutting all of my apps down. But had it not been for my weather app, I wouldn't know that that was happening to my phone. Yeah. So now, and what I've been telling the police, I said, the concern with the phone is that if someone can shut your phone down, they can come then get into your house if they can shut the Wi-Fi and they can do something bad to you. Plus, the other, they can also get your bank.

Exactly. And I don't put, so I don't put any emails, nothing like that on my phone, which I know people are like, how do you even function? Now I actually just bought a flip phone because apparently they're the safest. I was about to say, I was about, I was going to make that suggestion. If you are being hacked, then you go by the, you go to Walmart, you buy the prepaid phone, put your minutes on it. and you you basically have a burner phone and that's what you use. And that's if you need to call or text.

And unfortunately, it's just how it has to be. It makes me mad that that could be like your solution forever. It's like you should not have to stop using iPhones. But the fact that he keeps getting into it is I was thinking at the beginning, we have had a case where someone put an app on someone else's phone when they were in person with that phone. Like they snuck the phone.

Was there ever an opportunity for him? to do that? Even if there was, he did it when she got a new phone later. Right. Oh yeah. That's true too. Right. Yeah. So now I'm like. And nothing was related. New phone, new phone number, new email, new account, new Apple ID. I mean, everything new. So he either got into my contacts and he knows me by getting into my friend's phones. And so because a few of my friends, my one friend, her phone like completely like exploded like I mean the whole system just burned out and I'm like okay that's really odd because for me you know I have this is the saddest part for me is that I have literally lost friends because of this situation they weren't your friends they're too afraid to be around me and that to me has just

been the hardest because it's awful I'm so sorry because I finally said to one of my friends daughters because she was a little bit nervous because she has little kids and stuff and she was nervous about her mom and hanging out with me and stuff. And I get it. I really do get it. But at the same time, I said to her, I was like, but you know what? When everyone just leaves, you're leaving the victim to have to deal with this themselves. And so they need community. They need more people surrounding them. Yeah, the more. Bodyguards you have, the better. Right. And more eyes, more ears, more everything. And so, you know, I have one friend who's my best friend who has been the one to be my steady through this whole thing. She has been there morning and night checking in with me. And she

lives back where I used to live. And so she has checked in with me morning, night, and she's my person. And we've come up with little icons and different things, even like places we're going to meet, we'll say, okay, let's go to location number one. And unfortunately, this is what my life has become. Because I don't know if someone is monitoring every little detail. So when my phone is on and it's working, are they seeing my text and seeing where I'm going and listening to my conversations? This is my life. It's the hard part is that you're being intruded on in every single aspect of your life. Just this week, actually, I had a lady, because I've been posting things on Facebook

because I feel like I need to put the word out and I need them to know because I went dark a little bit. And this lady contacted me who had worked at the church that I was with on behalf of another lady who works at the church. And I was able to meet with her last night. Interesting part is she works at the same church I did. She has the same color hair as I do. And she's being stalked in the same exact way that I'm being stalked. So is it the same guy? Same guy? We have no idea because she doesn't know who it is. I feel like that is too much of a coincidence to me. And so I'm literally this week I've been talking to the, I talked to the chief of police and the detective. And I haven't heard back from them quite yet. This is like, this is like breaking news right here. That is so scary.

So the same exact things happening to you or happening to her. Yes. The accounts, the, you know, she's felt like someone has been in her house. It's her phone. it's her computer it's everything her security system has gotten shut down all of that has happened to her and i'm like this is too much of a coincidence for me to think that this is not the same person or the same group of people if it's a group of people i don't know you said she has the same hair color as you and works at the same place were there other similarities between his wife and the first engagement so he was apparently married two times and then this other girl who was a victim, he was, they never got married, of course. But apparently, I don't know for sure,

because I sort of Googled them on Facebook to see what they look like and stuff, because I've only been in contact with the one, but I've lost contact with her. That's what we would do. Don't worry. Exactly. We do our due diligence. It's research. Exactly. Exactly. But I'm pretty sure the two other ones, the two other victims, I'm pretty sure they look similar, but I don't look like them. I have a different hair color than them. Okay. But I'm curious if maybe they all like, I don't know, like if he has some kind of like mommy issue that he's like, you know what I mean? This is totally speculating. But like, I'm so curious, like what he. It also validates the idea that it's not anything you can do. It's not anything you can prepare for. Like, these people have so much going on

with themselves and are targeting somebody based on qualifications. We can't understand because we don't know how that mind works. And I just, like, I hate that anybody would say, well, didn't you see it coming? It's like, no, we don't think like this. Right. Right. But that, I mean, as hard as that was to hear her story, I was able to go to her house last night and I was able to give her tips and tricks of the things that I've done, the things, you know, just little things that she has said how the police had made her feel crazy and people are saying stupid things to her like, well, what did you do to bring this on to yourself? And well, you're not that attractive. So why would he be stalking you or why would someone be stalking? I mean, just dumb

things. And I'm just like, and this lady is a little, she's probably a bit older than myself, but I'm still like, why are people so stupid? Why would they say these things? kinds of things. You know, especially with someone going through this, you're already going through enough. Like, you don't need another judgment on you going through this. And I'm like, that's why I'm going to be the best advocate. I'm going to tell everyone to shut up. Like, dip your lips. Yeah. You know? And so, so one of the other exciting things is I met with one of the directors at Domestic Violence Services. And we have been touring around talking to state representatives to get laws changed for a stalking PFA because the regular PFA, it doesn't cover a stalking situation.

And so, you know, in my case, I'm pretty sure I know who my stalker is. And so I would have every right to be able to do that. And if it's up to me, I want to make it for a lifetime that these people could not, you know, could not be around the victim. And so that's been really exciting for me. Again, being able to share my story is hard at times. But it feels so. worth it when people are hearing that and they're like, this is unbelievable. I can't even, you for sharing your story. Can't even. Wait, is he still on probation or is he off probation now?

He's off probation. He was off November of last year. And since that time has it gotten worse or no different or stay the same, like his level of like his audacity? I feel like it's lessened a lot. But it's still. He found somebody else. Either that or he.

He's just given up, which I can't see that. Because like I said, remember in September, my car happens. And then my phone is now acting up again where it's been fine for a while. And I've been telling the police the pattern is something happens. I do something new. And it will be fine for maybe about four, maybe six weeks. And then something will happen. And then, you know, here we'll go.

So when I met with the police chief and the detective a few weeks ago, my phone was not acting up. And now all of a sudden, here I am. In the last week, my phone is now acting up. So now it's, you know what I mean? It's the pattern that you get used to of just like, life starts to feel normal, normal, normal, normal, and then bam, something happens. Life starts to feel normal, normal, normal, bam, something happens.

So it's like you can't, you can't fully move on because it's still happening. And that's where we're living in that inhale. You don't get to exhale. Yeah. Yeah, for real. It's just, like I said, it's been, it's just been two and a half years or so of just living in hell, you know, and, but I'm trying to make the best of it by opening my mouth, by sharing my story, by just feeling courageous. Do you know that? Thank you. Like hugely. And I'm so inspired by the way you look for the blessings too. I've got to say this story has fired me up and I feel like

we just have to do something. We have to pull our resources and catch this man. The fact is that he's interred your house. That makes me want to say hire a private investigator and watch him. Round the clock. Is it pricey? Yeah. Someone's got.

But if we can, if we can gather some friendly PIs in the area that I know you live and really come together on this, I really feel like nobody, nobody has thousands of dollars to spend on a PI. They just don't. And private investigators, you're talking $100 an hour, right? So you're talking $2,400 a day. Okay, so if you want round the clock, but that's what we need. I think round the clock surveillance on this guy, and I think we watch him.

I think we tag team. I think we collect a team of private investigators. As far as stalkers go, I'm not super knowledgeable with like the cyber part of it and like the forensics of like the cyber stalking. but there are people who specialize in the forensics of like the cyber stalking and the harassment online. So things that are online and things that have to do with hacking. There are a lot of private investigators, for instance, are ex-law enforcement, ex-FBI. They're retired. They're retired from, you know, these big jobs where they actually did stuff like that.

And so there are private investigators that specialize in certain areas. And some of them do have that. training in the cyber security aspect. Yeah. But I think that's what like I probably know probably 300 private investigators like just in my role in it. Like just that I just know. Wow. Yeah. And so I feel like someone's someone don't know something. I'm I'm texting my people right now. Oh my gosh. That's awesome. I'm like I'm on the edge of my seat, but I see. I'm like I want to hear what they say. But I guess we have to wait. And that. I, you know, I'm a firm believer that, you know, like you said, the more eyes, the more community,

the more that this guy's going to get caught. And he's a danger to society. And I know he is because if you have three people that you know that he's stopped, how many more. And the first victim that I talked to, she said that he went after her dad and her landlord as well. And so it doesn't stop at women. It's men, too. Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah. So, you know, so. So it's because if he doesn't feel like he has enough control over you, now he's going to go affect the people that that you love or the people that you know. He's going to have that connection either way. And that also is like, I mean, just the fear of that being like, oh, now my family's involved. Now people in my life are involved. Like that is another way of in a way like showing power on the same victim. It's so crazy. Sorry, McKenzie. What were you going to say? No, that's okay. I was just saying that the rates of stalking prosecution. need to increase.

Like there's, there is a, there is an unresponsiveness when it comes to stalking prosecution. There's no, like, nobody, because it's hard, it's so hard to prove. And with this guy, they are literally just towing the line. They get so close.

And there are, uh, the statistics say, 13.5 million people are stocked in one year period in the United States. 13 and a half million. Like, think of how, many people that is that are being stalked. And that's just the ones that we know that are reporting. Yeah, we don't hear about it. We can't prove it. The cops can't do anything. There's no one that can

arrest. What do they do? And you know, you know what? I would love to see. I said this to the one state representative. I said, I would love to see the statistics of suicides by people who are being stalked because I know I've had thoughts that are not, I'm not proud of it, but are very real. that I'm like if I can't get this to get to get better and it's never going to go away I'd rather go away do you know what I mean and well but I value my life you feel like you you just feel so helpless and so hopeless and you're like this is there's nothing I can do like this is yeah you can't get away from it yeah everywhere thank you Carrie thank you so much for telling you we love you I just think you're so brave and we're gonna I want to I want to I want to I want to do I want to

into this because I am like so fired up and I know so many of this is not over so yeah this is thank you guys I just feel like the one thing I've struggled was not having any advocates or people to be by my side and you guys just want to make me cry because I just I'm so thankful because like I used to tell my single moms I'm like as one person we can make a difference but when we link arms together we're like a force to be reckoned with power and numbers baby yes yes So I feel like, and we believe you and we're here for you. Thank you, guys. This was a horror story and it is, but you're not alone.

No, it's, it's really deep. Like, it is hitting me in the gut so hard. I've been stalked before. I know exactly what you're going through. It's awful and I'm just not, I'm just so proud of you. So thank you for standing up. And I, just to make it clear, sometimes there's, it seems like there's no answer. Like, there's no solution.

there's no resolution right but you just telling your story is going to help someone else even if it just helps them feel less alone but I just feel like you can you I think you are going to change the world I'm really I'm really proud of you for sharing so thank you so much for being here and we're going to we're going to give you guys updates with care of people holy bananas I'm like you guys fired up I got heated I got heated you guys I got freaking heated during Like, I guess I just feel like I know what it's like to feel so helpless. And so, like, you have no control over the situation. Number one.

Number two, it's ongoing. It is so intrusive. Like, this guy is making it clear to her that he's in her home and there's nothing she can do to prove it. Yeah. And that there's nothing she can do to know if he's going to stop. Like, that's the thing for me is, like, it is almost impossible to have peace of mind after you go through something like this.

Yeah. Even if they stop, you always have to live with that feeling of what... Of wondering, are they really stopped or did they just take a pause? Like, do you know what I mean? Like, are they... And then it's like...

And then, at least in my case, you feel guilty, like, oh, they're gone now, but who else are they doing this too? And then you feel guilty that it's someone else and you're like, oh, man, like this is likely happening. And that's terrifying. It's horrid. And she said she knows of three other victims, but there are probably more of his.

So we want to try to help her because this is ongoing. McKenzie has already, so we're recording this outro about a week from talking to Carrie. We've done some digging. Let's start there because I think, at least for me, I like having some feeling of action of like the little bit that we can control makes me feel better. Maybe that's a problem,

but that's for my therapist to deal with. So do you want to talk about what you thought as a recommendation? for what she should do with PIs and what you're thinking. I talk to a friend about the phone thing. So, yeah. So I always recommend a lot of people are, they want to prove something. So they're like,

well, I'm just going to watch them or I'm going to set up my own surveillance or I'm going to document it myself. That is at least in Florida, every state governs their own private investigators, right? But at least in Florida, and I know several other states, you're not allowed to get that information on your own.

Because that's stalking. That's called stalking. Like you're not allowed. But if you are licensed and you have a license to do the investigating and you are, you hire someone to do it who is licensed, who has already gone through all the things to make sure they're doing it legally, that's when you can get the information. So don't do it yourself. I recommend if you cannot hire someone or if you cannot catch them for whatever reason or maybe you have cameras and they keep taking them out somehow or whatever, hiring a private investigator that will do surveillance, although it can be really expensive, is a great way. to get a professional legal view on this person and so that they can legally document what this person is doing day by day, whatever. And then you get proof.

And then you have legal proof. So I recommend hiring a surveillance investigator who specializes specifically in surveillance and who can set up a team for you. They know where to position themselves and they're familiar with this kind of case. And McKenzie's kind of touch and base with some people she knows.

and we're trying to help Kerry get PIs help and also help with that cost. So we're going to let you know how you can do that. Yeah. And if you are a private investigator and you listen to our show and you have ideas for how you can help or you know somebody, I would really appreciate if you reach out to us and just let us know because I am basically, I'm on this mission of compiling as much help and information as possible from all the private investigators that I know. I do happen to know a couple. There's a few in my Rolodex from Carrie's area that I've been in contact with. And we're going to try and help her

as much as possible. She is, Carrie has set up a GoFundMe. Because this case is ongoing, we want to help her. Personally, I feel like as a private investigator, I feel like the best thing to do is hire a private investigator do the surveillance. And I feel like if we can help her do that because it's ongoing, we could potentially help stop this guy and also help protect her, keep her safe. So she's set up a GoFundMe. So we're going to put the link to that fundraising page in the episode notes. And please consider donating there if you can to help Carrie. And this Carrie's case in particular is ongoing. So that's why I think it's for her safety. I would, man, I'm just so worried for her. Well, we talk to her, yeah, about where would be best for our

resources to go. I'm stressed out about the phone situation. Can we talk about the cyber-stalking? Oh my God. So here's what I have gathered from some learning from you guys reaching out and from talking to a friend who's been hacked on his cell phone many times. The first thing is like our cell phone numbers are the key to our lives. And I think we all need to start getting Google voice numbers and using them always. Google Voice is free. Yes. I knew about Google Voice and I knew like, oh, don't maybe give your phone number to somebody

you just meet on an app. But I put my phone number everywhere. Like every time I sent you that stupid plaque and had to put my phone number in, you know what I mean? Like it's anything you buy online wants your phone number. So I don't think we can do that ever because it's out. Google voice number. So I'm going to read some of what my friend wrote.

Is that cool, y'all? Yeah. Because it was very helpful. So this is my friend who has a job that puts him at risk of a lot of hacking. So he got, like, he described it as stop North Korean hackers level security phone. Like he bought the most protected phone possible and got a phone plan for that. So I wanted to get that information to carry because she got a flip phone. but even then it's like she shouldn't not be able to use a smartphone.

Like that's not bad. You know, I'm just like angry. Okay, so I asked him about how much the very, very secure phone was. He said it was about 1 to 2,000 and he said there's just your basic phone bill after that. But he did say that while that was great, it might not be as necessary as getting the phone plan service that he thought was really, really good. So the phone was called Glacier. That's the type of phone he got. But Afani, E-F-A-N-I, is a secure mobile service provider.

And he thought that might be like enough. So then I was like, how did this happen? Like, why did he have access to everything on her phone? And this is where I learned, like, all you really need is your phone number. And then he's like, if he had any access to like her driver's license or passport, even a photo of it, done. And I was like, well, he's been creeping into her house. So I have a feeling he could get a picture of that.

So what happened to my friend is people would go to Verizon and impersonate not only him, but his mom, people on his family phone plan. God, that's so crazy. Right? And they would convince the phone people because they had his identification, her identification, his phone number. He even had his social security number hacked at one point, which is a whole other thing. He's having to get a new one.

And they would set up phones with that number. And I think he called it sim swapping. And that he was like, you would be so surprised that that is so easy. Basically, they call cell phone companies pretending to be you and get the cell phone company to put your number on their phone. Then if you have any other accounts, you can click forgot password and set up a new password and get into anything. And it's just easy.

Like, I was like, wait, someone could do that to me right now. Like, I want to go change my number. So that was stressful to learn about, but I think it's important for us to know about. Yeah. I definitely think that service, the Afani secure mobile service provider, he said he hasn't had any issues since that started. And it seems like that could be a helpful thing. And then he was like, there's also sites that will delete your information from the internet.

And I was like, like, delete me? Who we want ads with? We advertise with delete me. Delete me will. they will find, it's a subscription service and they will find the info that you don't want online and they will remove it. So delete me. I mean, I hope that we can help her do more of that. I know she's already kind of started that process, but the phone thing blew my mind. I really was like, if he didn't have access to her physical phone, which he never did because he wasn't with her on the phone,

how did he do it? But I guess it's not that hard. It's not that hard. And, The problem with that is we as law enforcement has not caught up fully with the hackers and what they're learning. So the hackers are learning faster than law enforcement. So right now it's really, there's only a small number of law enforcement that understand and know how to how to find these people and, you know, hack them back. Like, do you know what I mean? Like it's, it's the hackers know more than the cops right now. And until we can get more manpower and get more, you know, more education in our law enforcement about these cyber crimes, this is going to continue to happen.

So that's super important that we keep trying to, you know, learn more about that as far as our law enforcement goes. Two things based on that. If you are dealing with a stalking situation, one thing I took away from this story is not to be discouraged if going to law enforcement doesn't immediately result in a solution. because her story, it showed me that they really were doing the best that they could, given their level of clearance and level of training. And that's not to say that the training shouldn't change and the process shouldn't change.

But in this moment, if you go to the police and they say, I can get you even a order of protection, I can make a note of it, but that's kind of the extent. there are other places that can help you. She went to the domestic violence services, her local domestic violence services. I wouldn't stop there. Like I wouldn't just be like, oh, the police didn't stop it. And so I'm screwed. As we're still trying to work on how to handle it better, I just know there are other

private resources out there. And the sad thing also, and this was talked about in the book club book, Mike Proctor, was like, the reality is the more money you have, the best. better you can handle this. It is just a pricey thing right now. Even these phones, like the secure phones are expensive. The phone plan is expensive. The PI is expensive. Like the things that you actually need to do to stop this. Sometimes the investment though is worth the peace of mind. Oh, for sure. If you can do it, I mean, it's just sad, but that's the way it is right now. So that's the tech side. There's so much more that happened. I mean, never give you a real phone number.

Blocking on phone goes through to I message computer. That was weird. Oh yeah. She was like blocking his texts and then they still were coming up, obviously. Which is crazy. Like block means blah. Like no means no. It's fine, I guess. She talked about her court process getting through the court system was just so many struggles.

Yeah. And not even that it wasn't working. Like it was working. It just takes so much work and money, as I said. Yep. And a lot of times the money is the problem because it costs more than anybody could ever afford like do you know it's so hard it's so it's so it's really frustrating but this is the what kills me is that this is ongoing and so we the way that I guess what we and what we've learned

here on the podcast is that the more we talk about it the louder we are the squeaky wheel gets the grease right so the more we talk about it the more we bring awareness to it then the it's like kind of out there it's not hiding anymore right and so that's what we're hoping to do is bring awareness to this and so if anybody here there's this and they're like, you know, someone's going to be like, oh my gosh, like I went through the same thing. This is what I did, you know, that helped me or whatever. And so that's what we're hoping for is that we can bring some kind of like finality to this for her. Because just to, it's just a subtle, it's just a subtle, these subtle things that this guy is doing that is intrusive

and it just feels like you're, it's invasive. It's so scary. I also love how. you emphasized to be annoying and call law enforcement every single time. Something happens. Oh, yeah. Well, because oftentimes we're like, well, we're not, who's not going to call the cops? That's dramatic. Listen, I am a dramatic person and I would rather overreport and know that when, if something does go down, we're going to have, okay, look at all these 10 things that happened before the 11th thing was like, holy crap. And now we have all these 10 things to fall back on. Whereas it's like, if you make a report after 10 things happen and then finally and they're going to be like,

oh, this was a one time thing. And you're like, no, no, no, no. But wait, this happened and this happened. And they're going to be like, why didn't you call? And then because of our justice system, you have to, like, you're going to have to prove it. And they're going to say, well, you didn't document it. You didn't call us. So if you feel something is wrong, you feel like your pillow is turned around and you're like, oh, man, I'm crazy. I put my pillow wrong when really you honestly think it could be someone else. Call, make a report. And you don't have to call 911. You don't have to call and, like, send the squads. Like, just call and make a report. or walk into the police department or a sheriff's officer, whatever,

and just say, hey, I just want to make a report of this. I don't know that it's anything, but by law, they have to record it. I was just, then it's, okay, yeah. So yeah, don't, you don't have to call the emergency number, which I think was great. So I was just watching the HBO documentary series on P.D.D., which is not all out yet, but it's very distressing and disgusting. And one thing that a woman who was a victim, of rape by him said, which broke me,

is that she didn't report it. And her reasoning was because she was in the middle of a very messy custody battle with her ex-husband. And she didn't want anything to interfere with that. What would you say to somebody who is going through something maybe like that and is like, if I start reporting that I'm being stocked, there's a chance. And they're going to be like, we're not going to give you a kid with your, yeah.

I mean, like, what do we do when you have a very justifiable, reason to be worried about law enforcement. So you don't, it's good to call in and make a report, but also if you just keep a journal and you document and you can justify, like, this wasn't an emergency, so I didn't want to call the cops or I didn't want to call the non-emergency line or whatever. But what I did was I kept a journal to kind of document what was happening. And don't you also, write it in the journal and email it to yourself, right? Yes.

Yes. So then you have a digital time. Email it to yourself. Save it and take a picture of your notebook and save it to your Dropbox, whatever. Email it to your mama, like somewhere where it's safe. So like if your email gets wiped out, now your mom, like send it to someone, whatever. Send it to as many places as possible and save it so that you have this documentation. So they'll say, well, why didn't you call the cops?

And you'll say, you know, I wasn't sure if it was an emergency, but I did document it. And here's what I wrote down. And then you can say so on this date at this time, this happened. And then on this date at this time, and then they can look at your job. journal that you've written down and say, oh, okay, like, you know, and hopefully that could help in your case or whatever. So if you're not, if you don't feel confident enough to call law enforcement, at least write it down. Keep a journal or email it to yourself. Like my son, he gets, he started getting nosebleeds more often. And the doctor's like, you know, it's probably just wintertime

and his nose is dry. Whatever. Well, in order to document it, every time he gets a nosebleed with me, I text his dad. And every time he gets a nosebleed with that, he texts me. So now if I go to his text and type in the word nosebleed, we can document what date and time he got a nosebleed. And so that's just we're just keeping track for that way. So you can do the same thing. Text it to yourself. Do something like this time. And telling somebody, that's a great thing too because obviously I know.

Sometimes you don't feel, you feel isolated. These people can do a lot of things to make you feel that way. But she had a community that did seem to really come into play. Having people that you can go to and talk to and can validate you. when you're like, I'm crazy. And they can be like, no, actually, that's insane. And somebody did come into your shower and take one hook off every other thing. Yeah.

But someone is there to back you up. And like if it has to go to court or something, you have someone that can speak on your behalf and say, this person was, you know, I noticed that my friend was very scared on these days. And this is what she reported to me or whatever. Like you never know how it could be helpful. So definitely tell someone, make someone aware. because what will happen is the more you tell someone like, oh, this is happening to me,

like this is going on or whatever, it's going to heighten everyone's awareness around you too. And so if something happens to you or they can't get a hold of you, they're going to be like, you know what? She keeps telling me that something is weird. She keeps telling me that things are happening weird in her home. So not hearing from her for a day is not normally alarming, but I haven't heard from her a day and this is going on. Let me call someone.

And so it just raises those alarm bells just a little bit. bit more to make everyone around you more aware too. So I talk loud. Say it, say it out loud. And if you're afraid of people thinking you sound crazy, like, who cares? Get you to stay it. Yeah, go practice. Go sing in an elevator with strangers and get comfortable because, well, we love the Ashley Flowers saying, be weird, be rude, stay alive. Be weird, be rude, stay alive. I even wrote down. I wrote down, be a Karen when it comes to your safety. It's true. A lot. Be a note. Be a That is one time you're allowed. And it's easier said than done.

I even have been recently in a public situation where I saw a girl that I wasn't sure if the guy was like something she was welcoming or not. And I really hesitated. I was like, oh, I don't want to be annoying. I don't want to seem like I'm intrusive or whatever. And I was like, I'm just going to say hi for something. And I just walked over. But it took me a minute, like me, who talks about this every week for a living.

But you're right, though. Like you don't want to sound crazy. You don't want to sound like you're being dramatic or whatever, but you can call me dramatic all the live long day. It's true. You know what I mean? Like honestly, the best case scenario, like in that instance is that they're fine and I seem a little over dramatic.

Like that's what I want to be the case. You will always sound crazy until you don't. And I feel like just keep talking. And that's why I'm glad that Carrie was so brave to tell her. story, even though it's ongoing, because it's just the awareness. And that's very, very brave of her. I'm really proud of them. She talked about some of the statistics and you have awareness of some of the statistics, which in the book club book and from what I see, they're probably inaccurate. Like so many people don't report what's happening to them. Under reporting, yep, for sure. So it's like,

we don't really even know how much is happening, but it's happening a lot. And also she was like, I wonder what the suicide rate of survivor or actually victims of of stalking is. And I mean, it says, I looked and it says, this is old, but like 24% ruminations, suicidal ruminations, which feels low and probably is. And we don't know. There's just, it's such a vague crime. It's such a vague crime. Because there's no relief from, there's no relief.

And it's just like, you're just so, you're at a. point where you're scared, you're anxious, you're, you know, all the time. And it's like, you just want relief. Like there's no, it's like chronic pain almost, it seems. And it's like chronic anxiety and you're constantly looking over your shoulder. Well, that's why I hope this podcast as simple as it is. It's like, yes, we do live in a world that sucks. Like, we have to do that. But at least with the dating detectives, you have like a group of people who you can kind of vibe and connect with over that. you can be like, man, walking through a parking lot alone sucks. L.O.L.

And we can all, L.O.L. with you. And then we can sell some pepper spray with dating detectors on it because that is something that is coming soon. Surprise. But like, you know, I just want to have sisters and siblings of all kinds in cahoots with this because we have to go through it together and it makes it easier. But keeping it on a swivel. and tell your people and you're not alone.

God, there was so much here. So send us any reactions if you're going through something like this. I hope that something has helped you, but also that Mike Proctor is a great resource. Stop stalking us.com is a resource. She talked about her local domestic violence services being really helpful. So look for that. Tell everyone around you.

Yeah, this was important. Carrie, thank you. and we're so proud of you. We'll keep you guys updated. Yes. Let us know what you think of her story. And let us know if you've been through something similar or going through something similar, what you experienced and what support or advice that you can offer,

we would love to hear it and share it with her. So thank you so much for always being willing to support our guests. We love it so much. Patreon, $5 a month, bonus episodes. And we'll make sure we update y'all on Carrie's case as we can. And we're also reading, what's it call again? Antidote for a stalker. Antidote for a stalker.

Yes. February 23rd will be moving in. Join the Patreon and come do the book club with us. We have, we always get together and like we talk about it. Everybody has their different opinions and ideas. And sometimes it gets heated and not like heated in a friendly way. No, it's like fun discussion. Yeah, it's actual like real, just real discussion about like these, these different topics that are so important.

And so I don't just come join us. And you get two bonus episodes. a month and we really appreciate the support also. Yeah, I'm excited. I saw somebody recommended another book for a fiction month. I won't spoil it now, but let's just say it sounded like a little smutty, but also relevant. So I was like, yes.

Yes. But, dude, smut is in right now. So many people are talking about, have you read this latest? And I'm like, you guys are hoes. Good for you. I like it. I represent. Loud and proud.

Right? No, I love a smut. I love a smut. I love a little smutty book. I'm reading Onyx Storm if anybody is right now. Let me know. It's trendy. Don't worry about it, McKenzie.

It's dragons. There's dragons. I don't do it dragons, but it sounds great. I love that for you. Thank you. Guys, email us. Our email address is investigate at the dating detectivespodcast.com. You're welcome.

Stunning. Stunning. And share, review five stars. It gets to more people. Yeah, we really appreciate. And share on your social media. When you guys share on your social media, we love it so much. Like we get a lot of people who are like, oh my gosh, my friend shared this.

And I'd never heard you guys before. And this story really helped me or whatever. And it's like, wow, one person shared this. And we were able to touch somebody or help somebody. So I think that's really cool. So thank you for sharing. Keep sharing. Thank you.

And listen to the medical detectives, our sister pot. Yeah, that's it. A lot of people are really liking the medical detective. Oh, it's so good. It's so good. I'm so glad to hear that. Okay. We love you guys.

and let us know what she thought. And we got, we're here for you. And until next time, trust your femme tuition.