The David Knight Show - Fri Episode #2284: — The Untold Cost of COVID Compliance

Starting point is 00:00:30 of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act it's the david night show as a clock strikes 13 is friday the 12th of june year of our lord 2006 well i think we have a very interesting program for you today uh we cover the gamut from quantum physics and cosmology leading a scientist to god then we talk about the duty to disobey a new documentary coming from children's health defense. We're going to be talking to someone who was formerly in the military, as a career military, who got driven out by the vaccine mandates. What is being done to help those people? And where can you find the film as it's about to be released in theaters?

Starting point is 00:01:23 But of course, the physicist that we're going to be talking to is also an Emmy Award-winning presenter many years in the media and he's put together a documentary about his own personal journey toward God through the things that he saw in science that could only be explained by God. So stay with us. We're going to be right back. Well, today we have a couple of excellent interviews. I think you're really going to find a lot of information in this. I think you'll find it very enjoyable. First, we have coming up, we have Nick Cooper, who is an Arizona State representative. He was somebody, in the military who was fighting for religious exemptions against the vaccine mandates. And he is part of a children's health defense documentary that is coming up, a film they've put

Starting point is 00:02:33 together that is about to, you can catch it in the movie theaters. We'll talk a little bit about that and show you the trailer of it. But the movie is called Duty to Disobey. And so we talk about what happened with this, but it's not merely a retrospective on this. we talk about what needs to be done to keep this from happening again and what has been done for the people who are harmed by this. Have they made it right yet? Well, the short answer, as you know, is of course they haven't. What needs to still be done? And what needs to be done at the state level to make sure they never do this type of thing to us again? So we'll be talking

Starting point is 00:03:10 to Nick Cooper. He is an Arizona state representative and he's got a handle on some things that are very effective that could be done at the state level to protect our rights. we also have Dr. Michael Gillen. He is an award-winning. He's won many Emmys. For years, he was a science editor at ABC News. He is a physicist by training. He taught physics at Harvard. And he has had a lifelong love of science. But he was an atheist for a very long time. And he's written a book as well as a movie that has just been released in the last month or so. And he talks about his personal journey from a scientist to a Christian, and how things like quantum physics and cosmology and other things like that brought up questions that just couldn't be answered by science.

Starting point is 00:04:02 The way he expresses it, he says, I used to believe that seeing is believing. He said, now I say that believing is seeing, because through that he can see the true answers that are there. We should never run away from questions, whether we're talking about. science, or we're talking about the Bible, or talking about God. Those questions, when we have a question about something or questioning it, we should go further into it because the truth can withstand those questions. As a matter of fact, the questions are a kind of refiners fire, and it can help us to refine what the truth is. Along those lines, I want to preface this before we get into the

Starting point is 00:04:42 interviews, there was a letter that was written to me, actually an email, and it was from someone who was a longtime listener and supporter. And they wanted to clarify something that I said about Pete Hegsuff quoting, you know, God trains my hands for warfare, my fingers for battle. I said, no, that is, as Christians, that is a spiritual warfare. And so she sent me an email, which I did not disagree with any of that. And so when I read it, I thought, what is it that I said that made her think that I was saying something completely different. And so I think I need to clarify this. And I've got to say, if you're not a Christian, but you are looking at what is happening

Starting point is 00:05:29 with politics and culture, always understand it is always downstream of what people believe in terms of their religion. And of course, we're going to be talking about that with Dr. Gullen as he joins us as the second interview. But I have to also say that if you are a Christian, you need to make sure that we need to make sure that we are as ambassadors of Christ because we are called that. You need to make sure that we're representing him properly. They were not giving the wrong impression to people about what Christianity is about.

Starting point is 00:06:00 We don't want to excuse some of the harsh treatment that we've seen, things even like genocide and war. We don't want to cheer that. We see that as sometimes an evil necessity, but that's something that we should be cheering. And hopefully this will help. whether you're a Christian or not a Christian. And as I look at this, I thought, you know, I guess what I did when I spoke, Hegsteth,

Starting point is 00:06:27 when he says and does these types of things, it just infuriates me. I mean, you know, always in the past, and I think the way that it should be done, as I think the people who are in the military, people in the Defense Department, they should look at this as something that is necessary but regrettable, not something that you revel in. This is not some kind of a high school sporting event that you really just want to shove the ball down the other guy's throat. That should not be our attitude toward war, I think.

Starting point is 00:07:00 If this war were necessary, of course. Yes, of course. And again, it comes back to it has to be a necessary evil. And it is something that we do it with regret, even when it is justified and necessary. And so I guess that when I looked at that, I thought that, well, maybe I jumped into that and went into shorthand a little bit. So let me unpack a little bit what I was saying about HECF. And hopefully that will help you if you're not a Christian to understand what Christianity

Starting point is 00:07:31 is about and what is going on with Zionism that we see exhibited, the kind of Zionism that Higsef has. And also help you perhaps if you want to try to explain that what you're going to, you you believe and the God that you follow is not like the God of war that Hegseh is presenting to the public here. So this is the email that I got from our longtime listener and a supporter. I heard you talk about Hegsaith prayer a few times and referred to it as being a spiritual war. There are many allegories and metaphors in the Bible, but Psalm 144 is not one of them. David telling his son Solomon to build his temple because Yahweh told David that he had shed much blood.

Starting point is 00:08:15 And this was backed up by First Kings when Solomon is talking with Hiram and gave me several different Bible references. I won't read those off to you. But if you know the Bible, you know that this is absolutely true. What she's saying, David is a warrior. He and Jonathan fought many real wars and battles with them. And so, again, even looking at the Hebrew word for war, which means a literal war, and I looked at all this and I thought, yes, of course. Why would you think that I was saying something other than this? And so, again, I think it's because I went into shorthand

Starting point is 00:08:52 and because it bothers me so much to hear him prattle on and boast about this. But, you know, when we look at this, I don't anathematize anybody because of their theology, especially because of eschatology. none of us has any perfect understanding. It's why I'm reluctant to say something about this. I don't want to set myself up and preach down to people about this. I just have to say, though, that if we don't have, none of us has perfect obedience. Let's be honest about that.

Starting point is 00:09:24 None of us has perfect understanding. But there are consequences for the things that we don't understand. They can lead us into certain types of behaviors and patterns and things that are going to harm us. We also don't have perfect obedience, but there are consequences for that as well. Remember when King David committed adultery and murder, there were consequences for that. And again, God lets us suffer those consequences so that we learn from them. But then there were things that he did that he did not suffer from directly, but it had consequences for other people, as such as the time that he decided out of pride that he would number his army do a census of that

Starting point is 00:10:10 so that he could be proud of the number of troops that he had. It sounds like a Pentagon briefing nowadays, right? God punished the nation severely for that, not David, but the nation. And so we need to be careful about what we believe and what we say, because these are things that put distance between us and our relations. with God. They frustrate that, that harmony that is there, but it also has consequences for us and for other people. And I think that is the case in terms of dispensationalism as well. The secular evil of Zionism that it cheers and that it enables. That is a great evil, I think. And it is based

Starting point is 00:10:56 on what I believe is an incorrect understanding. It's not for me to judge the relationship to Christ of other people. But it is for us to look at doctrine and behavior. And if we see something that is wrong, we need to call it out. So I don't know even about Huckabee and Hagee and Heggis. He's a very public Zionists who are calling for very strange, unchristian things. I think, I don't know what their relationship to Christ is. But I do know that what they're saying is not consistent with what Christ has said, not consistent with the Bible either. And so I could never know anybody's position. Just as I imagine, you know, if you were a contemporary of King David and you saw the adultery and the murder that had taken place, you probably would think that the

Starting point is 00:11:49 guy was a hypocrite, right? We have a different perspective from the Bible because we have God's perspective on this. But I imagine that was one of the reasons why the sword never departed from his house was because people looked at it from a different perspective. So not only is the theology behind Zionism wrong, I believe, but I think it has led to a kind of secular idolatry. and when you look at the essentially the cheering of war, the boasting of war, the boasting of his power,

Starting point is 00:12:27 I think that is something that we as Christians need to speak out again. So I wrote back to the listener who sent this to me, I said, I absolutely agree that David was talking about physical warfare. I don't think anything in the Old Testament is entirely allegorical or symbolic. I've criticized many times Ben Shapiro

Starting point is 00:12:47 statement to Joe Rogan that he didn't believe that Moses parted the Red Sea and it was actually God who did it. Shapiro quotes Jewish rabbi Maimonides who Jews now revere as saying that it was now that it was likely a wind that separated the sea. When the Bible says Moses part of the Red Sea and the people walked across on dry land, I don't question that. I accept that as a miraculous intervention. However, I also understand that it also was a picture, for example, of many things. Baptism is one of them, as they see in 1 Corinthians 10. It says the Israelites were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. So it physically happened, but it's also a picture of something that is a greater spiritual reality. I think we make a big mistake when we think that the

Starting point is 00:13:39 spiritual examples and the pictures that the Old Testament gives us of what happened physically, what happened historically. I think it's a mistake to think that the spiritual reality is something lesser than that physical reality. So I don't discount the historical account of the Bible. I don't discount the physical miracles. But I also understand them in terms of what are they picturing? What does the Bible tell me about the nature of Christ and his work?

Starting point is 00:14:10 That's the way I understand the Old Testament. a physical historical reality that was a picture that was a type of a greater reality, a supernatural reality about nature that is above the physical. Another example is the tabernacle, for example. And later the temple, these physical realities spoke in their architecture, and even of the materials that they were constructed of, they spoke of the greater reality of Christ's person and his work. There were pictures to help us to understand the greater ultimate

Starting point is 00:14:42 spiritual reality. Yes, David fought physical wars. Moses parted the Red Sea. David's victories were won by God's strength, just as God parted the Red Sea for Moses. In Psalm 144, David acknowledges that God is the one who gave him the ability. God likely played a more direct role in his victories, even so. As we see time and time again, the same warriors would sometimes win and sometimes lose, depending on whether God was blessing them or chastening them, trying to teach them a lesson for something that they had done in rebellion, for example. And when David went to war, he didn't take it for granted that he would win because he was king of Israel. This is one of the key things when we look at Pete Hegeseth. Yeah, I'm on the side of Israel. Israel is going to win all the wars and should win all the wars and

Starting point is 00:15:32 so forth. David did not have that kind of arrogance. He would inquire of God many times. You see this throughout the Bible. Sometimes he would go to a prophet. Sometimes he'd go to a priest. The priest would have these things called Yermann Thumbum, and they would use that to inquire of God. I don't think that Pete Higseth has a Yermann Thumbum in the basement of the Pentagon. Maybe they got it stashed down there somewhere with the Ark of the Covenant, as Spielberg imagined it, but I don't think so. In these last days, we have a testimony that has been sealed in the blood of Christ and of martyrs. Remember, martyrs means literally in Greek witnesses. These are people who, they were not martyrs because they died. That's the way the Muslims have repurposed this. They were martyrs because

Starting point is 00:16:21 they were witnesses, eyewitnesses of what had happened. And they would suffer severe, horrific deaths rather than discount what they had seen. The Bible has the truth that guide us. And I don't recall who said it. For the way I believe we should understand the Old and New Testament is that the New is concealed in the old, and the old is revealed in the new. So Hegsef doesn't have a declaration of war from God. He didn't even bother to go to Congress to get a declaration of war. So he does not know whether God is in favor of what he's doing, except we can look at the principles that are involved here. As a matter of fact, if he were to go to the Bible, he might find things like this in Proverbs. Proverbs 11, for lack of guidance, a nation falls. Or, victory is won through

Starting point is 00:17:17 many advisors, but plans fail for lack of counsel. Nevertheless, with many advisors, they succeed. This was not the path that Hegeseth and Trump took. The way of fools seems right to them, but the wise listen to advice. Or just go to the, uh, song. Fools rush in where wise men fear to tread, right? And I think we rushed into a very foolish war that they did not have an edict from God to do. So after all, Israel is God to them, and Israel made it very plain when B.B. and the Mossad told them what they wanted, even though CIA director Radcliffe thought it was farcical. But it is my firm, belief that all of the Old Testament was for our instruction about the nature of God, how he deals

Starting point is 00:18:12 with us, his power, et cetera. It is my belief that dispensationalism's fundamental error is to ignore the purpose of the Old Testament, the greater spiritual realities of Christ and the church. It pictured that, and we are to focus on those things. What happened in the Old Testament was a shadow of the greater truths to be revealed. That's what the entire book of Hebrew, is written about. Today, the dispensationists are like the Hebrews that were being addressed in the book of Hebrews. They desire to return to Judaism. But Judaism was a shadow, a type of something greater. And what we're looking at today is not really even the Judaism that was practiced given, delivered by Moses. We're looking at rabbinical Judaism, which is a tradition of commentaries

Starting point is 00:19:04 that is not what you see in the Old Testament. Exeth longs for a third temple because he doesn't understand that the tabernacle and both temples were pictures of Christ and to some extent of the church, because Peter says that Christians are like living stones being built into a spiritual house. We don't seek to build a third temple. The temple was central, by the way, to the practice of Judaism. rabbinic Judaism, as I said, has little or nothing to do with the religion that God gave to Moses. It is nothing but rabbinic philosophy.

Starting point is 00:19:40 Without the temple, without sacrifices of blood, there is no forgiveness of sin. And yet, it wasn't the sacrifices that brought them the forgiveness of sin. The sacrifices look forward to the sacrifice of Christ. They depicted that, and they were fulfilled in that. And so I believe this all happened for our instruction about how God deals with us and to show us what Christ's mission accomplished. Dispensationalists today, like Huckabee, Hegset, are all like the Judaizers written to end Galatians. When anyone talks of the fulfillment of God's plan in Christ and the church today, these Judaizers cry that we have created replacement theology. when, in fact, it is the modern Judaizers who replace Christ and the church with ethnic Jews,

Starting point is 00:20:36 who say they're Jews, but they're not. They're not Jews ethnically, and they're certainly not Jews religiously. They are the synagogue of Satan, quite frankly. You won't find any religion that opposes Christ more than rabbinic Judaism. People like Hegsef and Hecabbee worship a political state. and they are the true replacers. Christian Zionists replace Christ and the church with an idolatry of the political state of Israel and to a lesser degree America as well.

Starting point is 00:21:12 And so we have to be careful that we don't get drawn into a heresy that feeds that kind of Zionism. I say all this to explain why I said and still believe that Hexeth is perverting and twisting scripture to justify his rash, illegal, unconstitutional, and immoral laws, wars, I should say. I've said it before. I'll say it again. He is a reproach to the name of Christ. He starts wars. He targets civilians and non-combatants, even those who are shipwrecked in the water, like in Venezuela. I believe War Pete's private interpretation of Psalm 144 is based on his Zionism and dispensation. The greater reality that David's physical wars pictured is a reality revealed in the New Testament about the war that each and every one of us is involved in on a daily basis.

Starting point is 00:22:11 This is what I was talking about when I said we don't wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. And that's, of course, from Ephesians 6. Now, what is the nature of that war? How do we fight a war with spiritual beings? Well, in 2 Corinthians, he also talks about spiritual warfare. Chapter 10, he says, we don't live, I'm sorry, yeah, chapter 10, he says,

Starting point is 00:22:41 we don't live in the world, and we don't wage war as the world does. The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. What does that mean? Well, he says we demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God. We take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. Not to make it obedient to the agenda of Benjamin Netanyahu or Israel. We have a – our warfare is one against ideas.

Starting point is 00:23:22 Just as Christ said, my kingdom is not. of this world. If it were, then my people would fight. But what we fight with is thoughts and agendas that are hostile to the knowledge of God, things that get in the way of us understanding what Christ has done, who he is, what his mission is for us. In both physical and spiritual war, based on his public actions and statements, I would say that Pete appears to be losing badly. Yes, David did fight literal wars, and he had a political, worldly kingdom. And yet ours is a very different battle. And we should not minimize that. As a matter of fact, when Paul was writing to the Corinthians, he said, our weapons are mighty. Yes, the pen is mightier

Starting point is 00:24:16 than the sword. And yes, God and knowledge of God is mightier than the sword as well. So again, that was, I wanted to clarify that because that has been a pet peeve of mine, and I guess I get upset enough that I took a shortcut on that and maybe confused some people about that, but that genuinely is what I believe. And I know that I probably offended some people who may be dispensationalist, but I believe that that has led to the error of Zionism, and I think that that is a stench. And so I'll just leave it at that.

Starting point is 00:24:56 And we'll go directly to our interview right after this break. I'm going to play a trailer for you for the movie, and the movie is duty to disobey. And then stick around because I think you're really going to enjoy this movie, The Invisible Everywhere, that Dr. Michael Gilli,

Starting point is 00:25:13 Dylan talks to us about. It truly is fascinating. And I think we need to be ready to give an answer for the things that we believe. And that's the purpose of his documentaries. He said, you know, a lot of people say, well, I just believe because I believe. He says, great. But we should also be able to explain that to people because we should have enough concern for them that we tell them why we believe what we believe. That's why I just said that about that. And I hope that my words did not come across as offensive or proud, but we'll be right back. It's your move. And now, the David Knight Show.

Starting point is 00:27:31 Whether you're feeling like the blues or blue grass, APS Radio has you covered. Check out a wide variety of channels on our app at APSRadio.com. I had a battalion commander come to me, and she said, dear God, we're killing our own soldiers. We gather today to honor the incredible service members. We owe you our thanks. The owe you our respect. We owe you our freedom. Just as we have gathered before to remember those who served, those who fought,

Starting point is 00:28:12 and those who gave their last full measure of devotion for our country. According to the Associated Press, the Pentagon is going to require vaccines for all service members. I'm asking the Defense Department to look into how. and when they will add COVID-19 to the list of vaccinations our armed forces must get. The military was ordering service members to take a shot that they could not lawfully order them to take. Leaders did everything legal or illegal within their power to coerce and influence their service members to get the shot.

Starting point is 00:28:55 I'll never forget I received a phone call from a mother whose son was a Marine at 29 palms and she told me her son and nine other Marines were being held in confinement in the brig until they got vaccinated. If you don't do what they tell you to do, they will ostracize you, they will destroy your life. Stop resisting or you will get text. They threaten me with Leavenworth imprisonment. They banned me from all Army Public Health Center facilities for 413 days. I counted over 140 days where I was put into isolation.

Starting point is 00:29:25 Once it becomes normalized in the military, it often very quickly finds its way into the civilian population, as we saw with the COVID mandate. The effects extend well beyond just those in uniform, and the impact is really on the entire nation. 8,000 well-trained men and women were fired. I lost my income. I lost my ability to feed my family. I mean, I'm being told you're getting dishonorably discharged. And if you get dishonorable, you lose everything. You can't get certain jobs as a civilian.

Starting point is 00:29:54 It follows you for life. You cannot mandate an experimental medical product. It cannot mandate that on military members. In my entire medical career prior to this, I had never seen a young person with a stroke. I had never seen someone have a massive clot without provocation. We were in great shape. We were doing very well. But then as soon after the vaccine is when everything my health went to town.

Starting point is 00:30:25 People celebrate all the freedoms of the military gets to grant this country. When the military's freedoms and really the country's freedoms are actually being taken away. Why was the vaccine mandate unlawful? How come the Secretary of War? is telling us that the vaccine mandate was unlawful. We all know that the previous administration issued unlawful orders on mandatory vaccines on an experimental vaccine, COVID-19. You know it, we know it. You are taught that you have a duty to disobey unlawful orders. You know, they postulated that we're going to have back pay for members

Starting point is 00:30:59 that were kicked out. They're inviting these warriors back into service. And that was huge. And I was so happy to hear that. But that does nothing for the institution. itself. What I have understood from people in the military is that it has not been made easy and that it really still needs to be done on an individual basis. We haven't stopped in four years when everybody was ignoring us and we're not going to stop for another four, 14 or 40 years. We're at a critical juncture and the soul of this nation is at stake. When we talk about orders that are on long, well, as those of you who've watched the program over the years know, I have talked a great deal about the vaccine and about the vaccine mandates. There's now a documentary out called Duty to Disobey.

Starting point is 00:32:13 And you can find that at duty to disobeyfilm.com. And I'm interviewing today someone who had a prominent place in this. And it was a big issue in his life and his career. He was a military fighting these mandates. And he is a part of this documentary now. Congressman now in Arizona, is that correct, sir, Nick Cupper. Thank you so much. Yes, thank you for joining us. And I want to talk to you about your personal experience and about what has happened and as a member of Congress,

Starting point is 00:32:47 what is being done to keep this from happening again. And I guess we could also talk about what's being done or not done about the vaccines as I was looking this up. And some of the mandates that came out, eventually Biden mandated it for private companies as well. And one of the people writing an article pushing back against that was Marty McCarrie, who now has just been pushed out, I guess. So I guess many of us are looking at this and saying, well, what has been done to keep this from happening again? That's one of the key things, I think.

Starting point is 00:33:16 But let's go back and review your particular case. You were in the military. You had been there for several decades, 20 years at least, I think. And there were severe penalties that were being done. People were losing their military career, losing their medical benefits. Tell us a little about the impact and the threat that it was to your life. Yeah, so for me specifically, the mandate came out right around the time I had 18 years in service. Pardon me.

Starting point is 00:33:44 And I fought it as long as I could because there were a couple reasons. Initially, I filed a religious accommodation request. My thought was I had already had COVID. I had proven I had antibodies. And actually, my base immunologist admitted that I had more antibodies than he did. And he had taken both shots. So the basic idea behind a vaccine is it gives you antibodies. If I already have antibodies, I don't feel like I need it.

Starting point is 00:34:08 But for my religious belief, I really looked at it from the perspective of I felt like my God had given me antibodies. And if I were to take the shot at that point, I'd be denying my God's protection he'd given me. I don't really feel like denying my God. That being said, the military did feel like denying my God. And so they denied my religious accommodation. They denied my appeal, just like everybody else who filed one. and they attempted to kick me out. But one of the other big issues, regardless of religion,

Starting point is 00:34:36 was the fact that Secretary Austin at the time, his order was technically written correctly. It said that we were mandated to take the fully approved vaccine. It's not really a vaccine. It's a shot, but that's what it said, including fully approved labeling. The DoD had to admit in the lawsuit that I was in Coker v. Austin that they never had anything that could be considered fully approved

Starting point is 00:34:58 until at least June of 22, which was six months after the deadline for Air Force members to have taken it. Well, is that the- excuse me, was that the back and forth between Cormonati and the Pfizer biointech vaccine? Because there was a labeling issue with that. And they were saying, technically, you know, you're saying that this one over here is approved, but that's not even available in the United States. Was that the issue? Yeah, that's the basic of it.

Starting point is 00:35:23 So Cumerity was the name brand of what they were going to have, their fully approved version. They got their full approval at the end of August of 21. The very next day is when Secretary Austin made his mandate. All of that is all well and good. The problem is when you get an approval, it doesn't mean that everything you produced up to that point is approved. It means literally if you follow all the rules of the approval going forward, you can produce something that's approved. Well, they, once again, in my court case, they had to admit that Pfizer never even manufactured an approved version until January 3rd of 2022. The DoD didn't order any until May of 2022, and they didn't get any on hand until June of 2022.

Starting point is 00:36:02 And then they gave me separation papers in July of 22, which was about three weeks before my 19-year work. So I was about one year shy of getting to retire. But thanks to a lawsuit brought by Aaron Siri, who's actually out of Arizona like I am, I got a class-wide court injunction that covered me the day after my separation papers. And that's what allowed me to actually retire and not get kicked out. Wow. Yeah. It's such a betrayal, really, of the Constitution as well as the people who were in the military. And again, as I said before, it wasn't just the military.

Starting point is 00:36:33 They then started extending this to anybody who had a contract with the government. They extended it to schools and universities. They started twisting arms and blackmailing people with financial threats and that type of thing. Financial threats to the universities, financial threats to hospitals, financial threats to corporations. You want to do business with us? this is what you're going to do. And that's why when you're talking about antibodies and everything, when I looked at this from the very beginning,

Starting point is 00:36:59 it was like there's basically an inconsistency here that is illogical, right? We were told that we had to shut down and wait for the vaccine. No other things are going to be allowed from the very beginning. And so it's like this really doesn't seem like they think that this is an emergency. And there's all kinds of contradictions within the science of, varology that really don't add up. That was my concern about this from the very beginning. No, it definitely, none of that felt right from the beginning for me. When everything kicked off, I was stationed in New Jersey. And unfortunately, living under that governor was like living under

Starting point is 00:37:40 a tyranny. It was Phil Murphy at the time. And I remember they arrested a woman at a playground with her kids for being outdoors by herself with her children. I remember. And we end up getting moved to Arizona because my daughter's in a wheelchair and the doctors there, they stopped giving her physical therapy because they said, well, we're scared of COVID. They kicked the kids out of school because they were scared of COVID. Well, my daughter can't learn on a screen. It's not in the cards for her. And I tried to point out to the doctors. I said she has 11 special needs. She'll die of something else. Like COVID is not the only thing that will kill her. You need to be able to give her treatments. They refused. She had an open wound on her hip for months and months and months.

Starting point is 00:38:17 They refused to try to treat it. And so we got an emergency move with the Air Force and that's what ended up getting me here at Arizona and how I'm in the state legislature there now, you know, this experience kind of galvanized me to run for office. I think politics are absolutely stupid. I think most politicians absolutely suck. I don't really want to be here. But I think somebody needs to step up who can make the difference. And to your point of using money as an incentive, if I will say, it's something I've noticed in the legislature. It's a very normal political tool. It doesn't mean it's always good. But it's a very normal political tool where you say, hey, we're not going to tell private industry technically what they have to do. But we're going to say,

Starting point is 00:38:51 if you don't do this, it's kind of like a mob, right? Right. Hey, we're not going to be able to offer your protection if you don't do these things. Nice business you got there. It'd be a shame if you lose your major contractor. Yeah. I've seen this over and over again when people were trying to say, well, who's responsible for all this stuff?

Starting point is 00:39:08 And I said, look, we have seen this play over and over again, whether you're talking about Obama saying you've got to put the trainees in the bathrooms with the girls or you got Trump saying you can't put the trainees in the bathroom with the girls. What do they always do? always get around the 10th Amendment by saying, we're going to withhold money from your school if you don't do what I say. And so they can say completely different things, but the tactic that they use is always the same. It's always the money. And so, yeah, we've seen that over and over again.

Starting point is 00:39:36 Well, let me ask you this. We've looked at this from the standpoint of the vaccine itself that is out there. And there's been a lot of people who ran under Maha, who's saying we've got to do something. in terms of better testing of the vaccines. And we need to pay attention to the safety and the efficacy of these things. Those people appear to be getting pushed out like Marty McCary. What is your take on what is going on right now in terms of vaccine safety, efficacy, and the FDA basically doing its job? I think what you see, unfortunately, is just the worst of politics that it's worse.

Starting point is 00:40:17 politics gets into everything, whether it should or shouldn't. It really does. I think what happened with people like McCurry getting pushed out is politics again. It's not that he doesn't have the right ideas. It's that maybe he doesn't play ball in another area where they want him to play a ball. Maybe they agree with him on certain things, right? But if he's not a fully committed team player, he goes away. That's a similar thing in political parties too, right?

Starting point is 00:40:44 Like if you're not fully sold out to your political party that you're a member of, you know, if you're not putting them first above everything else, maybe you don't make it any longer. You know, maybe they push somebody against you. I see it all the time in the legislature and this is one of the many reasons I don't want to be here, but one of the reasons maybe I should be here is because somebody is able to push back against that.

Starting point is 00:41:04 And at least both their conscience do what they truly believe is right every time. You know, there's like, Senator Fetterman. I disagree with a lot about that guy. However, I very much respect that he seems to vote what he truly believes. He doesn't care if his party wants to go off completely far left. He says, look, this is wrong or I think this is right, and he votes how it is.

Starting point is 00:41:25 Now, that being said, I'm pretty sure he won't ever be back in the Senate. I'm pretty sure the Democrats are going to find somebody else to replace him. And maybe that happens to me one day, too. That's right. Yeah, that's basically what they did Thomas Massey. The political parties basically pick who's going to run for the most part of the Now, you're in the state legislature there in Arizona. So you don't have really much that you can do about the national situation,

Starting point is 00:41:52 about what's happening with the FDA or in this other stuff. What is the situation in Arizona in terms of, because we've had a mixture of a couple of different issues there. At the state level, we've had some states that have said, we're not going to recommend it. Others have pushed back harder with that. Some local jurisdictions have pushed back on it and said, well, we now have enough data that we know that it is, it's not safe, it's not effective,

Starting point is 00:42:17 and it's fraudulent for them to be able to sell this. What is the situation in Arizona? So in Arizona, before our current governor, Hobbs took office and before I was in the legislature, we had Governor Ducey, and they were able to get some decent legislation that stopped some of the tyrannical ideas or prevented some that may come up in regards to vaccinations or, in this case, shots, because it's really not a vaccine. they changed the definition of vaccine. It doesn't vaccinate you.

Starting point is 00:42:45 So I try not to call it a vaccine. But since I've been in office and since Hobbs has been there, she stops anything at all that would have to do with your individual liberties. For instance, last year I ran a bill knowing that I have a Democrat governor, knowing that I'm probably not going to get anything past her in this regard because she doesn't care about your individual rights. But I try to water down version where I just said, look, the state can never mandate that you take any unapproved medical product.

Starting point is 00:43:13 I thought, hey, this has got to be bipartisan, right? Because it doesn't matter who's in the governor's office. What if there's a Republican who wants to mandate Democrats take something they don't want to take? Shouldn't they want my body my choice? That's kind of their thing, right? That's their argument. And I got zero Democrat votes on it, and she vetoed the bill. So this year, I ran a constitutional amendment that said the state could never mandate

Starting point is 00:43:34 that you take any medical product, period. Because in Arizona, if you're in a constitutional amendment, if it go to the ballot, and the people will get the chance to vote on it, right? Now, if they say, yeah, we want the state to tell us what to put in our body, well, that sucks, but at least they had their will. No state has ever given a constitutional amendment to the people that says this. No state in the history of our country. In fact, my bill has gone further than any in the history of our country.

Starting point is 00:43:57 The furthest ever gone before was out of one committee in one chamber. Mine got out of the House, all Republicans, no Democrats. It got out a committee in the Senate, all Republicans, no Democrats. But it's stalled right now and probably won't see the Senate. floor because there are four Senate GOP members who don't want to vote yes on it. Wow. Wow. I don't know who they are, they're unfortunately. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:44:18 Well, you probably check and see who's been taking pharmaceutical money and you, that kind of give you a key as to what's happening with. Let's talk about the harms in terms of safety. Do you know any members that had adverse reactions to this personally? Yeah, Carolina Stanzig. She's in the documentary. She was, I believe, a senior airman in the Air Force at the time. And if I'm remembering correctly, she had three heart attacks in her early 20s after taking the shot.

Starting point is 00:44:45 Wow. That's not something in early 20s person has who's healthy. You know, if you're in the military, you're typically pretty healthy, especially if you're in your early 20s. Yeah, yeah. And it has a situation now where they've got a situation. I'm sorry to interrupt, but they've got a situation now that's absolutely absurd. They started doing electrocardiograms on kids if they wanted to participate in sports. And it's like, we've never done.

Starting point is 00:45:10 anything. And they just pretend that that's normal somehow. Yeah, we had a bill in Arizona last year, and it may have popped up again this year. I was personally against it because I think it's a step too far. But they wanted to push AEDs within a certain amount of feet of every practice field for every single high school sport in the state. One, it's kind of a vendor bill where you're trying to get money to a certain vendor who makes these things. But secondarily, what are we doing as a society that all of a sudden high schoolers are having heart attacks. Maybe we should be looking at that and not like, this is a band-aid solution. Putting an AED there, maybe we shouldn't be forcing unproven things onto our

Starting point is 00:45:48 kids. Yeah, I know. Yeah, all of this stuff is so unprecedented. And it just is amazing to me that so many people will look at this. And I agree, the mandate was horrific. And we've had situations like that in the military before with anthrax vaccine. And eventually the, you probably know better than I do how that worked out in terms of remembering it. But I believe that eventually the military backtracked on that and said they were wrong. And I think they compensated individuals for that. Is that correct? Actually, what happened there is people weren't compensated for it. And they've actually gotten less protection than we have in the COVID group. There's a gentleman, he actually lives in my state, Tom Renfer. He's been fighting to get people taking care of from the anthrax thing

Starting point is 00:46:35 since day one. And he's very happy to see some progress for us with COVID, but it's more progress than he's seen from anthrax in the 20-some years. And ironically enough, my career was bookended by two different emergency use mandates. Anthrax, right when I first came in the military, which eventually in a case, Dobey Rumsfeld, the DoD lost is what happened. Because real quick background for you and for your listeners, emergency use authorized medications didn't exist before the early 2000s.

Starting point is 00:47:04 there were investigational new drugs, which you could only give in clinical trials, and then there were fully approved drugs. That was it. So there was no way to give military members, for instance, outside of a clinical trial, anything that wasn't fully approved. When anthrax came around, they wanted some way to do that. So under Bush, they passed this new option for the FDA called emergency use authorization, which said that you could give it outside of a clinical trial,

Starting point is 00:47:29 but it wasn't fully approved yet. But one of the caveats, and this is what really caught up anthrax and caught up the COVID shot was if it's emergency use, you have to give the member the option to refuse. And they weren't giving us the option to refuse. They were mandating. If you have an option to refuse, it's not a mandate. So Dale Saron, he was one of my attorneys on one of my lawsuits. He was one of the attorneys at the time who fought and won Doe v. Rumsfeld, where the DOD said, okay, we'll never do this again. But by the time they won that lawsuit, there was an approved version of anthrax and they only started mandating it in certain use case scenarios, not blanket like

Starting point is 00:48:04 they had. Well, then COVID came around, and they backtracked on what they told the court they would do with anthrax and started mandating emergency use again. So sadly enough, my career is bookended by the two illegal mandates. Wow. And you know, what you were pointing out before was something I was saying through all this. Typically, the people would say, my body, my choice, they wanted to take away your choice about your body. And, you know, when we talk about abortion, I am pro-life. And so I say, well, you're not talking about your body. That's somebody else. But when you're talking about this injection, there is absolutely no question. No any disputes. That is your body. And so we saw those kinds of crazy things. We also... Well, one quick note on that. I think it's really interesting

Starting point is 00:48:44 because you know, you said the words they would use is my body, my choice, but they're really talking about your body my choice because it's not their body. It's a baby's body. I will say they're at least consistent as far as their actions because once again, they want to control your body. They want to force things onto you. That's right. That's right. There's a consistency there. But, you know, when we're talking about anthrax, it's kind of interesting to me as well. I go back and I look at all this stuff. I always think back to Dark Winter. I had somebody who was involved in cybersecurity,

Starting point is 00:49:18 and he warned me about a year and a half before this start. He said, there's an awful lot of chatter about Dark Winter 2. You know what Dark Winter 1 was? And I say, yeah, I remember what that was. And so I don't know if you remember, but it was two months before the 9-11 attack. They had an exercise, which everybody talks about, event 201 and many of these other ones, but it was basically locking down society in response to some kind of an epidemic, some kind of a pandemic, and keeping everything locked down until they

Starting point is 00:49:47 rushed out an emergency vaccine. And that's exactly what they practiced for 20 years, and then we went through it. But one of the things that was key to it was the actual anthrax attack, which happened a week after 9-11. And people died from that. and they use that to push out model legislation to all the different states. And so as a state representative there, you've got an option to take a look at some of these laws that they pushed out as model legislation. And it got enacted at the state level. And that's that along with the, we'll give you money or will withhold money from you, will bribe you or will blackmail you over federal funding depending on if you do what we want you to do. but they also got the laws put in with the model state health emergency legislation that they

Starting point is 00:50:37 did two months after the anthrax attacks. So anthrax is tied together with the mandates as well as with the pandemic stuff that is there. I think it's kind of interesting to see that happen. Do you know what the situation is in terms of your pandemic legislation there in Arizona? Is there anything that you or others have looked at to change that at the state level? Yeah, we've looked, especially when you're talking about governor's emergency powers, and I don't care what party our governor comes from. A governor, I'm willing to say, okay, they should have emergency powers, right? There are legitimate emergencies where they can act much faster than the way as the legislature can act.

Starting point is 00:51:18 In fact, typically, we are slow as molasses. It's very pathetic. But there have to be checks and balances on them, and there have to be things where, hey, you can act with an emergency. authority for only so long and then you need to come to the legislature and let the legislature allow you to continue on. Furthermore, in your emergency powers, I don't think at any point you should be able to take away someone's individual liberties. The whole point of it is, you know, God gave us all these freedoms. They all come from God. They're derived from God. The Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of Arizona doesn't give these freedoms and liberties. What it does is it enshrines that it's

Starting point is 00:51:54 our job to protect them. They're God-given. We forget that all the time. We act as if, Oh, we're giving this to you little people. We don't give you anything. It's our job to protect it, but we screw that up over and over and over again. And so we, some of us, not all of us, unfortunately, some of us want to enact a legislation that ties the hands of the governor when it comes to stealing away individual liberties. But so far, we haven't got a whole lot of traction. I'm very hopeful that if we get Andy Biggs into the governor's seat next year, that he's going

Starting point is 00:52:24 to go ahead and sign off on a bunch of these because he actually seems like he gives a crap. That would be key. Yeah, that would absolutely be key. And you're absolutely right. It's the difference between rights and privileges if the government gives it to you. I said all through this, I said, what we have here is basically martial law. You know, declare a pandemic, and the government can do anything to you. And the governors had been given these powers for a pandemic, and then they were given the financial incentives.

Starting point is 00:52:53 We saw in many states the governors were given, and this, I'm talking about some Republican governors. They were given more money by the federal government than the entire state budget, and that was something that they could use at their own personal discretion. And that is basically power, and they weren't going to do anything to let anything get in the way of that power. Tell us a little bit about some of the people that you know that have experienced adverse reactions to this besides the person who's had multiple heart attacks. I mentioned there was a lot of this. Yes. Yeah, there was a gentleman. who worked in the exact same builders.

Starting point is 00:53:30 I didn't know him personally. I had seen him a time or two. He was a technical sergeant. I was a master sergeant who was in E6, I was in E7. He worked in the quality assurance department. And he had had both of his shots. I'm not sure if it was Moderna or Pfizer, but he had had both of his shots.

Starting point is 00:53:46 And on a Wednesday, he tested positive for COVID. He had some symptoms tested positive. So they sent him home. Come Saturday, he got so sick that he went to the hospital. by Tuesday he had died of heart failure. Wow. He was in his early 30s.

Starting point is 00:54:02 And originally they were trying to say, well, he didn't have his shots. But we actually got the basemanologist to acknowledge, no, he had had both shots. And one of the most telling things to me of how scared the Air Force was about this gentleman's death after having both shots was that they used to have a public facing website that would say how every time a new airman had died of COVID, they would list it. And I'm going by road here, but I believe the number was 16 deaths before he had died. There were 16 airmen who had died. And the Air Force was very happy to try to say, well, none of them were vaccinated. So look, only unvaccinated people were dying. From the time he died, they never updated their death number again.

Starting point is 00:54:41 They refused because they didn't want to publicly admit that somebody who had actually taken both shots and died. And one of my friends who worked directly with this guy, he came to him one day. He had taken both of his shots too. He didn't disagree with my stance on that, taking the shots. but didn't quite fully understand it. But he came to me and he said, you know what? He's like, I really wish I wouldn't have done it now after this. And he said, and he was almost in tears.

Starting point is 00:55:02 He said, I feel like the Air Force killed my best friend. And he's like, I'm so pissed off right now. I'm so hurt. And that's just one example, right? And there's Carolina earlier. And I'm not saying that it negatively affected every single person who took it. But it 100% negatively affected people and especially the fact that it was never approved anything that anyone took. I don't know that there's a civilian in this world who,

Starting point is 00:55:24 ever got an approved version of the shop because we were going to the CVS and everything else and no one had it. No one had the approved thing because it didn't even get manufactured until January 2022. And by that point, most people were taking it. Yeah, yeah, or weren't going to take it. Yeah, absolutely. Right. And that's the key thing when we look at all of this. It is, it was, there were so many signals that something was rotten in Denmark with all this stuff. I mean, the fact that you can't try Ivermectin or HCQ or anything else, we have these, protocols that we have determined we're going to do, we're going to use ventilators and we're going to use vaccines eventually. Nothing else was allowed. The suppression, the active suppression

Starting point is 00:56:04 of any information about adverse effects that were happening. And we saw this everywhere. We saw it not just the military, but everywhere. And so everything about it just was fishy. And yet, when we look at it, it seems to me it's kind of interesting that there is, when I I talk to people who are Republicans because I'm a conservative. So many of them only are concerned about the mandate, but they're not concerned as much about the vaccine itself or the shot itself. And it's like, yeah, but the issue is that Trump funded this, Trump manufactured it, Trump pushed it,

Starting point is 00:56:42 and he kept cheering about it, telling people that he'd save millions of lives. And I've got a real problem with that. I just, that kind of double think that is there again, it's a partisan blindness, I think of people not wanting and see the bigger picture. It is. And the hard thing with, yeah.

Starting point is 00:56:59 Yeah, the hard thing with President Trump is, and there's a lot of good about him, but there's also bad. He's not a perfect man. And his biggest issue, in my opinion, is a hubris. He won't go back and want to admit that he was wrong about anything. And the thing is, none of us do. None of us like to admit when we're wrong.

Starting point is 00:57:16 I'm wrong sometimes. But I absolutely hate admitting it. But I do because, especially as a father, I want to demonstrate to my son. into my daughters that look this is this is what a good adult does this is what a good human does if you screw up own it and move on from it right unfortunately president trump made mistakes with covid but he won't admit to it now the downside is there is a base of the republicans who want to idolize him you know we shouldn't idolize any human being right we should idolize our god and that is it

Starting point is 00:57:48 uh and trump is not a god i don't think he's trying to be a god either but he does love the fanfare. And it's, it's very frustrating when I think we could do, he could do better. He, he, I think he would actually ingrati to a lot more support. If he would just be open, I'm like, you know what, this was a mistake that I took. I took some bad advice. He was new to politics. Totally understandable. I get it. I mean, he never held a political office before being president. That's a pretty big jump. And so that, that unfortunately is a downside. I think most of my peers don't want to say anything negative ever about who our president is. He has flaws. He's not perfect, but he is the best option we have there 100%. I'm very glad he's in

Starting point is 00:58:30 office. Let's talk a little bit about the reinstatement and the back pay. What is your take on all that? Has there been just compensation made to correct that and to walk that back on the part of the military? No, it hasn't been done yet. Unfortunately, not correctly. They've taken incrementally better steps that have gone and a very appreciative of Secretary Hegsaft for what he's done and you know Stu Scheller's been one of the ones who's actually been helping us out and he was he he got kicked out over arguing about the Afghan withdrawal you know which was horrible and got 13 service members killed um so he was never part of the COVID thing but he's actually been a great fighter on our side of it because once he learned about it he realized

Starting point is 00:59:13 how bad it was and anyway they're they're working there but I don't know what the exact reason is. My guess is something to do with politics again, but they're not quite getting there. What they really need to do, it's pretty basic, is they need to just blanketly, if you were kicked out or coerced out directly over COVID, if there was only COVID related,

Starting point is 00:59:35 if it wasn't something else, like you set up car and fire, and you didn't take the shot. But if it was only COVID, they should be paying you the entire money they owed you for the rest of what your contract was, because when they kicked you out or coerced you out, they illegally terminated your contract. And all those contracts have now lapsed,

Starting point is 00:59:53 like even the longest person, their contract would have been over by now. So to bear minimum, they should give them the housing allowance, the food allowance, and the basic pay for the years that they illegally cut off of their contract. That'd be very simple, whether they come back in or not,

Starting point is 01:00:08 because here's the thing. So many of those people, maybe they didn't have families before, now they have families. They've moved states. They've started new careers. They can't just drop everything to come back in to get their back. That's not how that works.

Starting point is 01:00:18 And regardless, the military was in the wrong. And I told this directly to Secretary Higsev. I said this last year when I met with him in the Pentagon. I said, if you really want to do the right thing here, you guys have the opportunity to do something that no administration has ever done. You can write the wrong of your predecessor. We did the math on this. It would be roughly $6 billion.

Starting point is 01:00:38 But that's $6 billion that was already owed to these airmen and allocated to these airmen. I say airmen because I was in the Air Force, soldiers, sailors, Marines. but it was already allocated to them in the NDA, the National Defense Authorization Act, and appropriated, but they never spent on them because they got kicked out. So what did the DOD do with that money at the time? So they got it for something else now when it belongs to these people. So if they want to do it right, just pay everybody who is kicked out. Not me.

Starting point is 01:01:04 I didn't get kicked out. I got to retire by the grace of God. And especially those people who got kicked out whose contract would have taken them in retirement, pay off their contract, give them the back pay for the retirement, they've missed now and then put them on their retirement rules going forward. That's how it should be done. What happens to those people they got kicked out and didn't get the retirement? Are they getting any retirement now?

Starting point is 01:01:24 I mean, what level of compensation have they done for people? I mean, they're not giving them the back pay. Is that correct? From my understanding, the only people who are getting any money back are ones who rejoin. And that's travesty because like I said, not everybody can nor wants to at this point, right? And I don't think they should have to. They were kicked out. If I had actually been kicked out, I sure wouldn't want to come back.

Starting point is 01:01:47 At this point, actually, I don't want to come back. I'm retired, but I wouldn't want to go back anyway. Obviously, if somebody attacked my country, I would step back in a heartbeat. But that's a different scenario. But they're not giving anybody anything unless they come back in. If you're a retirement age person, you're not coming back in most likely. Right. And maybe you can't come back in because of life circumstances.

Starting point is 01:02:09 So no, they're not doing it right for people. And the reinstatement process itself, I know people, a friend of mine, Travis Gidre, it took him forever to come back in. He was doing everything they'd say, but they kept moving the goalpost or they weren't pushing the information down to the lowest levels of the local recruiter. And I used to be a recruiter. So I know this works. The local recruiters wouldn't know what to do. And so he would just be delayed and delayed and then told the wrong thing and then told the right thing, but then told the wrong thing again. It's a nightmare and it makes you want to not try. Let me ask you this. Let's say that somebody is their worst-case.

Starting point is 01:02:41 scenario, they're one day short of their 20-year retirement or something. They get kicked out because of this thing. They don't get any retirement benefits. Is that what the situation is right now? What do they get? Not that I've seen so far. Wow. Wow. That is harsh. That is harsh. And I agree with you. I think that is a violation of their contract, a good faith violation of a good faith contract. So tell us what duty to disobey really means from your perspective. What is the point of the documentary that's here. At what point do we disobey the orders that the government gives us as somebody who's signed up in the military? We knew it to be factually an unlawful order. And we knew it to be because in this particular case, Title X of U.S. Code, I mentioned this before, it specifically says

Starting point is 01:03:30 that for emergency use products, you have to be given the option to refuse. The only waiver for that is if the Secretary of Defense in writing requests of the President of the United States a temporary waiver for certain missions like a set deployment or something like that. The Secretary of Defense never requested in writing this. In fact, one of the special advisors to Psychicic Seth right now, Christina Wong, she was a reporter for Breitbart at the time. And she requested the DoD to give her, hey, did you ever request in writing? And they could never give it to her because they didn't request this in writing.

Starting point is 01:04:05 So they never followed the steps. So they're mandating us to take this emergency use product, which they can't mandate us to take. So it's one hell of a nightmare. It really is. Yeah. Let me ask you, too, because, I mean, this title, Duty to Disobey, that was really a red flag for Pete Hegseth when Mark Kelly and some others talked about that in terms of what's going on with the situation. I've been as well where they're shooting at boats in terms of extrajudicial issue. like that and even coming back and hitting people who were shipwrecked that were there.

Starting point is 01:04:41 But of course, in his response, when he was criticized for talking about the duty to disobey, Mark Kelly said, well, I haven't seen them do anything illegal. Right. Well, let's talk about Mark Kelly for just a second on that because I have a personal story directly tied into this. Good. So Mark Kelly made his video with some other members of Congress saying, alluding to the fact that Trump and Hague Seth were ordering people to do illegal things, but not providing evidence.

Starting point is 01:05:06 And when he was asked, he said, I don't know. Now, Senator Mark Kelly is correct that Article 92 of the UCMJ tells us that we have a duty to disobey unlawful orders. Be literally, like, it tells you you cannot follow an unlawful order. You have to disobey an unlawful order because it's unlawful. Well, when I was disobeying the unlawful order to take the emergency use product, I called his office because he's my senator. And I know he's a Democrat. And I wasn't in office the time. I was an active duty service member.

Starting point is 01:05:34 But I was in his state, an active due service member. He's my senator. I called his office and I said, look, I've talked to the base immunologist and I've looked everywhere there is. There is no approved version. They're telling me I have to take it by this date, even if it's not approved. They're telling me I have to take it. That's an unlawful order. I need help.

Starting point is 01:05:51 And their response was, just go to CVS and take it anyway. And I pushed back again and I said, look, I can't. It's unlawful. And they said, why does it matter? Just go take it. That was what Senator Kelly's office told me. Wow. So when one of his own constituents brought to him an actual unlawful order that I was disobeying,

Starting point is 01:06:09 he told me to piss off. But then he makes his video for political reasons, but he doesn't actually even follow his own advice. I agree. I think it was completely political because we knew from the standpoint, I think at the point where they did that, we knew that they had gone back and shot at people who were shipwrecked, which is, I think, clearly in the Pentagon as rules of engagement. So not only was it unlawful, but it violated those. rules. And yet, when pressed on it, he didn't want to give any specific examples. Well, I don't know

Starting point is 01:06:39 that they, I don't know of anything they've done illegally. I just want to say this as a general principle that you have a duty to disobey. Well, it's hard to give specific examples when you're lying. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, I agree with that. So it is interesting, but I do agree with you that there is a duty to disobey. And it is not simply for people in the military. It is for people everywhere to disobey these types of strong-armed tactics. Because as I mentioned before, They did it to students, to college students. They did it to undergraduates. And they did it to people of private companies as well.

Starting point is 01:07:12 Anybody with a military contract, it was a real strong-armed tactic that they were doing. Well, they tried with OSHA to cover everybody. Remember that? Yeah. And then that got struck down. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, even when they were doing the masks, it's like, you realize that OSHA's already got a rule out there saying that if you are working in a very dusty environment, which is the only thing those masks were good for,

Starting point is 01:07:34 that you have to give your employees, after they've been wearing this for 20 minutes, you've got to give them a break so they can get some fresh air. And then they wanted everybody to be forced to wear these masks all day. I mean, it was just, like I said, this whole thing. It was so inconsistent. Yeah, it was a crazy, whoever wrote the script needed to have some continuity advice on this

Starting point is 01:07:56 because it was discontinuous all the way through it and made no sense whatsoever. except when perceived through the lens of embrital power, I think, then it kind of made sense. So tell us a little bit about the documentary. You're interviewed in it, is that correct? Yeah, so this is a documentary of a lot of us who went through this, and we had varying, you know, stories.

Starting point is 01:08:22 We all got treated slightly differently because it was very unique base to base and service to service as to what would happen. you heard a little bit about mine, but every single person in this have their own kind of horror story to tell. And some had it far worse than others. Some had a weird quirk. So very happy that Children's Health Defense was able to put this together and get us all together. We filmed this last year. I'm actually going to be flying out to D.C. this week to do some premier stuff for it. And there's a lot of great stories. I think Senator Ron Johnson, who was a huge advocate for us the whole time. He's interviewed in it. And, you know, people who were, were allies with it,

Starting point is 01:09:06 not just the ones who had to go through it themselves. And I think there's going to be a lot that that people who watch this are going to learn. It's everything, you know, I believe that everything we all said was true. It's stuff that probably even the modern DOD doesn't necessarily want out there because it's not a good look because it shows the ugly source of what the DOD did. And in some ways is still doing. Now, they're not mandating COVID, but they're also not fully writing all the wrongs. And as much as I appreciate the current Department of War, I can also point out when there are flaws, just like with President Trump. The man has flaws. I appreciate him overall, but we've got to be able to call a spade a spade. I would want the same done of me. Yes. And so this is

Starting point is 01:09:49 going to be theatrically released because they have a link to get the tickets at the website, duty to disobeyfilm.com. What is the release date on this? June 30th is when it'll be out across the nation in tons of theaters, a lot of AMC theaters, a lot of smaller theaters. There's usually a place nearby just about everybody in the country if they want to go see it. Well, it's very important for people to not let this just go by. And this is a horrific episode for so many people in so many different fields, not just the military, but in many other areas. And if we just let this go and forget about it, and that's the thing, I guess, one of the

Starting point is 01:10:24 things that has really bothered me about this is that after people got tired of this, they just stopped obeying and they walked away, but they didn't do anything to correct it to keep it from happening again. And I think that's a key thing that we've got to look at this and say, well, I demand that this be reformed, this be changed, the types of things that you were talking about earlier. We need to see those things. We need to demand those things. So I think it's important for people to look at this and to think about what happened and to hear the testimony of people who suffered through this. And thank you for taking a stand. I really do appreciate that. I've had a lot of people on who have taken a stand, and it's cost them a great deal.

Starting point is 01:11:02 I've had a lot of people who have lost their jobs, been fired because they refuse to take the vaccine mandates. And I've got to say, of the people who did that for religious reasons, I have seen God bless them in very important ways. And I think we can usually see God doing that. When you stand up and take a principled stand on something, that God will usually has your back on that. and usually come out better than you were before, I think.

Starting point is 01:11:31 And that's certainly- It's always better to follow God's plan than follow our own. That's right, even if the circumstances don't work out. But I've seen over and over again that God has really blessed that. I've seen people who have lost their job and their career, they thought, and then they wound up starting an independent business, and God really blessed that. And I've seen that.

Starting point is 01:11:50 Well, it's like I said, when I was going through this, my father came to one day, and he meant well, but for about 15 minutes, you tried to convince me to take the shot so I can make sure I stole put food on the table for my family. And I said, look, I know that God has me fighting this for a reason. I said, if I get to stay in, then that was God's plan. If I get kicked out, that was God's plan. While my plan is, I want to stay in. I want whatever God's plan is because I know it's better than mine.

Starting point is 01:12:15 And so even if, you know, you mentioned the circumstance don't go the way we hoped they would. If you know that you're doing everything that your God wants you to do, then whatever the outcome will be will be what the outcome was meant to be by your God. That's right. That's right. And in your particular case, you're in a position now where you can help other people, being that Arizona State Representative. Are you, I guess as an election year, you're running again at this point in time?

Starting point is 01:12:41 I am. I'm very blessed, though. We don't have a primary. My seatmate and I are in the clear there. We do have one Democrat in the general, but we're a very Republican heavy district. I'm pretty confident I'll be back next year. Oh, that's great. That's great.

Starting point is 01:12:52 They need people like you. They need people who see. what the problem is. And so much of this is at the state level. And I said this throughout. I said, you know, when we look at this, you're talking about how people have these different experiences, even within the military.

Starting point is 01:13:07 But that was certainly the case in terms of civil government. And I highlighted cases all through where you might have a good sheriff or you might have a bad sheriff or you might have a good governor or bad governor. And these people would just amplify this in one direction or the other. And I said, really, we always get focused strictly on the federal elections. And yet, when you look at this, where the rubber met the road and all this stuff, is that the local level? And they could either nullify this or they could make it much, much worse than even Washington was trying to do. So it's very important to have these state elections.

Starting point is 01:13:44 And again, Nick, you're running, Nick Cooper in Arizona. So if you're there, keep him in mind and work with him to try to try to get. get some of these things taking it. We certainly have the right understanding of the difference between rights and privileges. That's one of the key starting place. That's where our country started was in that distinction between rights and government-granted privileges. So thank you so much for taking a stand on that. And again, the documentary is duty to disobeyfilm.com. You can find where you can buy tickets and where the documentary is going to be showing, and it's going to be coming out on June 30th. Thank you so much for joining us.

Starting point is 01:14:24 Nick Cupper. Making sense. Common again. You're listening to the David Knight Show. If you like the Eagles, on the dark desert highway, the cars, and Huey Lewis in the news, love the classic hits channel at APS Radio.

Starting point is 01:16:27 Download our app or listen now at APSRadio.com. All right, joining us now is Dr. Michael Gillen, and he is a longtime presenter of information about science. He has been a former Harvard physics instructor, but he's also worked for ABC News. He's a former Emmy award-winning ABC News editor for science. And someone who has a very deep, lifelong love of science. And when I saw his documentary, he saw first information about his documentary, but I now have seen his documentaries, excellent documentary. The documentary is called

Starting point is 01:17:04 the Invisible Everywhere. And in it, he talked about, how dedicated he was to science, how that captured his imagination at a very young age. And yet when I look at this, one of the reasons that I wanted to talk to, Dr. Gilling, was because I have seen over and over again the false dichotomy that people have where they say, well, it's either science or it's faith. Like the two of them are mutually exclusive. I don't think that's the case. It certainly isn't for me, and it's not for Dr. Gillen either at this point in time.

Starting point is 01:17:35 So we want to talk to him about his journey. I also want to talk to him, and I think you'll be interested to talk to him about some of the conundrums that we have in modern physics, things like quantum theory and strange things like that that are part of the invisible everywhere. That is something that I really do not understand, but it was something that helped to bring him toward God and changed him from being an atheist. So I think it's a very interesting journey that he's had. I'm very anxious to talk to him. Thank you for joining us, sir. Oh, David, thank you very much for that generous introduction. I'm so glad you were able to see the movie last night so we can really talk about it up close and personal.

Starting point is 01:18:14 Looking forward to our discussion. Thank you, sir. Well, thank you. And, of course, you have a very long history of working at ABC. It was interesting to see in the documentary that you've met down to the Titanic. You've done all sorts of things working for ABC. And that was a very hair-raising experience. You guys thought you were stuck down there, and for quite some time you couldn't get it. out, right? Yeah, and I'm here. I've lived, I've survived to tell the story, right? Yeah, I've been to the

Starting point is 01:18:44 North Pole, the South Pole. Yes, I've been to the bottom of the Atlantic. I was invited to go there. I think it was September of 2000. I had a deathly fear of water, which I think I got from my mom. So I didn't really want to go, David, but, you know, it was my job. And so I did. And wouldn't you know my luck? Go down there in this three-man sub. It's me and this British guy. who's my diving buddy and our pilot Victor, who's a Russian, this is a Russian three-man sub, two and a half miles below the surface. So imagine that, two and a half miles. I can't even imagine that.

Starting point is 01:19:20 No, no, it's really hard. And I remember when we thumped down at the bottom of the Atlantic after, it took us about two hours to get there, we corkscrewed down. I just thought to myself, wow, I'm at the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean. That's like being at the bottom of the world's biggest swimming. pool, you know. It's like, and as we were touring the front part of the ship, no problem. But when we got to the back part, yeah, our little sub got stuck in the giant propeller of the Titanic. And, yeah, I was ready to kiss my life goodbye. So I tell that story in the movie, as you know. Yes.

Starting point is 01:19:54 It was just one of many stories. 14 years, David. I was at ABC News. It was 14 years. And that's a long time. Yeah. I can't even imagine what it's like to go down, that depth. And and what you need in terms of a vehicle. Of course, we know the tragedy that happened with that other vehicle that imploded instantly like that, because the pressure is just unbelievable at that depth. I used to scuba dive, and every 33 feet you go down, it's another full atmosphere.

Starting point is 01:20:23 You know, it's another 14 PSI. So going down two and a half miles, I can't even imagine the pressure that's there. You know, I did that segment for 2020, but I also did some of spin-off segments for Good Morning America. America. And one of the props that I used was a styrofoam cup. When we were on the ship, it was called the Academic Keldish. It's a Russian research ship. We were allowed to kind of use colored pens to paint on styrofoam cups. And then the cups were put into potato sacks

Starting point is 01:20:57 that were attached to the outside of the subs. So that when we went down two and a half miles, all these styrofoam cups were subjected to that in pressure that you're alluding to. And wouldn't you know when you come back up to the surface, they're about this big. I wish I knew we were going to talk about this because I'd show it to you. And I remember showing it to Diane Sawyer. And she's like, my gosh, I said, one picture is worth a thousand words. That's what happened, unfortunately, to the, I think was it five people in the Titan who lost

Starting point is 01:21:28 their lives a couple years ago. And I was talking to media all over the world, David, for like four straight days. because I'm one of the few people who have actually almost lost their lives and survived to tell about it. But that's what happened. And I don't mean to be ghoulish or anything like that. But when you're down that far, that's what happened to those poor people. They got all the air got squeezed out of their bodies.

Starting point is 01:21:51 And in fact, if you read the accounts now, and again, and I'll just say it and leave it at that because I don't want to become ghoulish about it. But just to give people an appreciation for the pressures that are down there, when the remains of those passengers were brought to the surface, they were in a very tiny container. So that's what would have happened to me if I had been exposed to those pressures on the outside of the ship, all the air would have been squeezed out of me. So it's literally the ocean pressing in on you from all sides, all sides equally. So you maintain your shape, basically, like the little styrofoam cups.

Starting point is 01:22:28 They're perfectly shaped. But they're miniature versions of the regular styrofoam cup, because all the the air has been removed. Anyway, that's probably more than you wanted to know. Well, yeah. I don't actually like thinking about it very much because it was pretty scary. You see all the movies about a sub that basically has a problem and can't control its depth and keeps going down further and further and it starts creaking and creaking. And then if it goes far enough, it just all of a sudden just implodes and just crushes in on everything.

Starting point is 01:22:55 But yeah, and then looking at the other extent of this, you begin your documentary by talking about the solar system. and different galaxies and things like that. That was all really new to me. I've never really focused on astronomy, talking about things like clusters, super clusters, filaments, the cosmic web. You started seeing design in that. That's where it really first caught your attention, I think, was it?

Starting point is 01:23:22 It was. And, you know, it's interesting because, you know, when I first wrote the script for the documentary, I just started diving in. Well, this is what we've learned about the universe. And then I thought, well, wait, wait a minute. I don't think most people understand that the solar systems and the stars and the planets and the moons and the galaxies and clusters of galaxies and the super clusters and the filaments are beautifully designed. I mean, it's like this lacework.

Starting point is 01:23:50 It's beautiful. Yeah, it was all new to me. Oh, yeah, it was all new. So I put in that, thank you for validating my decision because, you know, it added another, I don't know, maybe five, six minutes to the most. movie, but I just really wanted, before we started diving in, I wanted audiences to understand what we're talking about, that the universe is beautifully constructed. It's not just random stars, because that's the impression I think most people would get. You look up at night and you're like, oh, okay, lots of stars, but they don't perceive the intricate design of it. So I learned this,

Starting point is 01:24:28 and I want to give a big shout out, when I was a grad student at Cornell, I came to know this woman Margaret Geller, Professor Margaret Geller, who was at Harvard at the Harvard Smithsonian Institute. And Margaret was one of the first astronomers to discover this pattern, this just stunning pattern in the universe. So Margaret, I know you're out there somewhere. I just really want to give you a shout out for opening my eyes to that beautiful pattern that I shared with you in the movie. And that was something that I'd never seen before. I mean, I've seen Dr. Michael Beahey's book about intelligent design where he talks about microbiology and he talks about the systems within systems within systems and how they're all designed as little tiny machines and that type of stuff. So you see an intelligence design that is there.

Starting point is 01:25:15 But I'd never seen, I'd never heard that about the clusters and super clusters and this kind of cosmic web that is interwoven as you describe it. We see God's fingerprints on this stuff everywhere, don't we? We do, and it's interesting because when I, you know, I was born in East L.A., fell in love with science in the second grade. And that dream of becoming a scientist drove me to UCLA where I got my bachelor's and physics and math. Then I went to Cornell, got my master's in experimental physics. And then it was my intention, David, to get my PhD in experimental high energy physics, which is the study of really tiny things, not the big things we were just talking about. But just on the opposite end of the spectrum, I was studying. about quarks and gluons and protons and neutrons and guess what there's that remarkable structure

Starting point is 01:26:06 even down there and then i changed my mind about two years into my grad studies and i petitioned to become not an experimental physicist but a theoretical physicist and then i i became interested in galaxies because there were some really interesting research going on so my career as a physicist i'm just fortunate that has spanned literally from the tiniest things from the study of the tiniest things in the universe to the very largest things in the universe so i do have an appreciation for that and i tried to convey that in the movie because i don't there are not a lot of scientists who have and i'm not patting myself on the back it's just the fact that i have this perspective this broad perspective of of the universe and you're absolutely right whether you look at the microscopic

Starting point is 01:26:56 or the biological or the macroscopic or the cosmic. You see God's fingerprints everywhere. It's just undeniable, except it's denied by people who just want to be, you know, deaf, dumb and blind, or willfully deaf, dumb and blind. But if you approach the study of the universe, as I did with an open mind,

Starting point is 01:27:17 it's just undeniable that, you know, God's fingerprints, the design is there. And so you have to explain it. Is it a result of an accident? of just, if it's an accident, then it happened on the smallest scale, the biological scale, the macro scale on the astronauts. So you didn't just hit the jackpot once. You have to believe you hit the jackpot like a million different times at all levels of reality. Or you can believe, as I have come to believe, and not all, I didn't always believe this, but I came to believe,

Starting point is 01:27:47 finally, that it's clearly the design of some brilliant creator. And I'm now a Christian. I was an atheist. for many years, but science really brought me to my knees this way, David. Yes. And now I'm a Christian. And of course, one of the things that you talk about is the anthropic principle, which when you look at it as people discover this, they said, well, you know, it looks like the universe was designed for us, and you got all of these factors, and you go into some of those in your documentary, all these different factors that had to be exactly precise.

Starting point is 01:28:19 And so, you know, you got this one factor, another one here, and another one here. All of those had to be exactly. the way they are or everything would fall apart and there wouldn't be any life. And so they look at that and yet because they are fixated on a particular worldview that they've got, they reject all that and say, well, isn't that lucky. And it looks like it's designed for us and it's got all these different factors. And yet we know that it wasn't because I've got these previous assumptions that I've got there. I think that's the really the key thing. Because when you do real science, you've got to get rid of assumptions, and you talk about this in your documentary, you say that your motto was always

Starting point is 01:28:57 seeing is believing, and yet we can blind ourselves if we don't go back to actually have an open mind about the data that is there. And so you went, you turned your paradigm upside down. You say, now believe that believing is seeing. Once you start with a understanding that there is a designer, that there's intelligence behind all this, then you can really see how it fits together and you can see that better. Yeah, and you've said so many things in just that one little bit. I don't even know how to reply except let me do. Let me, and we can pursue it even more because, yeah, your remarks just now are just rich

Starting point is 01:29:36 with meaning, rich with depth. And so let me begin by saying, yes, when I fell madly in love with science, I was, what, like a seven-year-old kid. And I just thought to myself naively that to be. a scientist, you had to take a very pragmatic view of things. And so I adopted for myself this motto, seeing as believing. It just seemed like the most reasonable thing for a would-be scientist to believe. So if I can't see it, I'm not going to believe it. It's the old show me state, the Missouri, show me. You don't show me. It's like the skeptics motto, right? And I think it was

Starting point is 01:30:14 when I was probably around middle school and I was teaching myself the special theory of relativity. I was very precocious. I learned that Einstein's theory revealed to us that there are actually invisible worlds in space time. And I talk about them in the movie. And that was jarring to me. So I would have been what, if I were, let's say, in the eighth grade,

Starting point is 01:30:36 I might have been barely a teenager. This was jarring to me because I had lived by the motto, Seem is believing, but here was Einstein my idol. I mean, he's like the physics, equivalent of some baseball idol for me. And he was telling me no, most of the universe you can't see actually. And that revelation was carried out even through grad school when I discovered that literally

Starting point is 01:31:03 95% of the universe is invisible to us. It's in the form of dark matter and dark energy. And we have no clue, David. I'm just being honest with you. We have zero clue about what either dark matter or dark energy. are. That's one thing. Let me address another thing that you said, and we can come back to this if you want. But yeah, I would say to give your audience a broad view of what's going on in modern cosmology right now, which is the study of the universe, it's one of my specialties, is that since

Starting point is 01:31:38 about 1929, when Hubble made the discovery that the universe is expanding, so about 1929, right, into the 30s and the 40s, cosmology has been plummeted into a crisis. There's no other way to put it. And I'm not overstating it either. I'm not being melodramatic. It's just the fact that modern cosmology is in a crisis. Why do I say that? Well, number one, up until that discovery that Hubble made, the dogma in cosmology was that the universe we saw today is the very same universe that has always existed and that will always exist. Oh yeah, I've heard that. Right?

Starting point is 01:32:22 The universe was unchanging. And I actually, when I was a Cornell, I was just fortunate enough that one of the visiting professors from England was Fred Hoyle. And one of the professors there at Cornell were Tommy Gold. Now, these names may not mean anything to your audience, but these two people, Tom Gold and Fred Hoyle, were two out of the three people who,

Starting point is 01:32:49 who desperately, desperately tried David to save what they call the steady state universe, to salvage that old dogma that the universe we see today has always existed and will always exist. Why did they try so, and they failed in the end. And they were all brilliant. Why did they try so desperately? Why was that a crisis? Because now all of a sudden, for the first time in the history of science, for the first time in modern cosmological history,

Starting point is 01:33:20 science had to come up with a way to explain the beginning of the universe. They'd never had to do that before. This was a huge problem for them. And this, of course, gave rise to the Big Bang theory, and there were variations of that today. And was it Hoyle that came up with that moniker, the Big Bang? Yeah, he was in the 40s, and I tell this story in my book, believing a scene which inspired the movie,

Starting point is 01:33:45 pardon me but it was in the 1940s right in the thick of this crisis where astronomers cosmologists were just tearing their hair out trying to figure out how and okay how are we going to explain that there was nothing and then there was a universe i mean they had never had to face that problem before right and so yeah the big bang theory had come up but it had been named yet and uh Fred Hoyle was being interviewed on the BBC, and the host was talking to him the way you're talking to me. And they said, well, Professor Hoyle, what did we hear about you scientists now

Starting point is 01:34:27 are coming up with some kind of a theory about how the universe kind of exploded into being? Can you explain that to us? And in a very kind of mocking way, because remember, he didn't go for that. He was trying to preserve the old dogma of the universe, everlasting universe. Oh, yeah, yeah, I call that the Big Bang Theory, right.

Starting point is 01:34:49 And, well, it's stuck, and here we are, what, 80 years later. And we're still talking about the Big Bang Theory. That's a crisis, even still, David, because you can say, okay, there was nothing, and then there was something, and then it was ignited by some singularity or by the quantum vacuum, or you can come up with all kinds of ways to describe the beginning. but you were stuck at the end of the day with, well, okay, but where did the trigger come from? Wow, the trigger came from, you know, and then there's all kinds of hand-waving. So they're still really mired in that controversy.

Starting point is 01:35:29 But it even gets more complicated than that because up until just recently, we thought that what we saw is what there is. In other words, if you look at the universe through our most powerful, telescopes, what we see is the observable universe. But now they're having to explain why is 95% of that observable universe invisible. And so now the crisis includes not just trying to figure out how to explain the beginning of the universe. How do you explain that 95% of the observable universe is made of stuff you don't even know what it is, dark matter, dark energy? You just put a name to something you don't understand. And it gets even worse to button this up because beyond this so-called observable universe, 95% of which is invisible

Starting point is 01:36:20 to us. Are you ready? Have you got your seatbelt on? There is another universe, the unobservable universe beyond the cosmic horizon that is 100% invisible to us. So cosmologists have their hands full trying to figure this out and they're not succeeding right now. They're not. You know, It's very interesting because always, you know, when I'd talk to people who are atheists, they would say, well, you know, how do you have a God man? How do you have a Trinity in these things that are the nature of God that seem to be contradictory? And yet you're finding in cosmology and in so many other areas, quantum physics and things like that, we see all these contradictions that are there. And again, it starts to point to God, doesn't it? In terms of talk about the nothing and everything at the same time issue. Yeah, look, I get it when atheists say, well, you know, how can you imagine God? I can't imagine God. So let's just establish that. Anybody who says they can imagine God is imagining a very small God.

Starting point is 01:37:25 Yeah, right. Because if you can fully imagine God, in other words, you can compartmentalize him within your human brain. That's not the God the Bible describes, okay? The God the Bible describes is transcendent. Yeah. You know, Isaiah, what is it, 55 says, for my ways are not your ways and my thoughts are not your thoughts, for as higher as heaven is from the earth, my ways and my thoughts are higher than yours. Yes.

Starting point is 01:37:53 So that's pretty much a verse putting us in our place and just saying, look, you ain't God. So don't even try to pretend. So I give that to the atheist. Yeah, when I say I believe in God, I'm admitting to you that I believe in something I can't fully understand. But what I'm saying to you is that I have this faith in God because there's so much evidence that I discovered in modern science that points to this unfathomable God. All right? So I just wanted to establish that first. So now you look at modern science and you say, well, modern science, if your argument, if you, Mr. atheist, is that, oh, you believe in some

Starting point is 01:38:36 invisible guy in the sky that you can't even fully fathom, okay, I grant you that. But then what's the alternative? Then you're suggesting to me that science is offering me an alternative that's easier to understand, right? That's more down to earth. That's more practical minded. That's more rational, right? Well, just the opposite has happened. Because as I indicated a moment ago, when you look at the canonical theory of creation in modern cosmology today, in the beginning, was the quantum vacuum, not God, but according to modern cosmology, in the beginning,

Starting point is 01:39:12 was something called the quantum vacuum. And I talk about that in the movie as you know, but just briefly, the quantum vacuum is conceived to be by scientists, something that is, on the one hand, nothing, absolutely nothing, nothing, perfect nothingness. And on the other hand, everything.

Starting point is 01:39:32 Yeah. And this, this, this, this, So let's pause for a moment. Okay, Mr. Atheist, your complaint about God is that I believe in something I can't fathom. But what's the alternative? The quantum vacuum is no easier to fathom than God. So there goes your excuse for discarding religion. There goes your excuse for embracing science over religion because modern science is now offering me an explanation for the beginning of the universe.

Starting point is 01:40:01 It's every bit as supernatural as the Bible. Yes. And you see this not only in questions about how the universe began, but all across the board, from the tiniest level to the highest levels of reality, you see this happening that modern science, rather than becoming more and more practical, more and more demystifying universe, actually modern science is becoming more supernatural, and it's actually deepening the mystery of the universe. And I talk about that in the movie.

Starting point is 01:40:31 And I think, you know, when you talk about believing, is seeing, what is missing from the things that they are coming up with, this idea of the quantum vacuum that is both everything and nothing, what is missing from all that is the intelligence that is there. In the beginning, there was the word, the logos, which is intelligence at the very beginning, and the intelligent organization that we see behind these things, the patterns that we can discern in this. And you mentioned in your documentary, of course, the proverbial tornado in a junkyard. It doesn't build buildings or build cars or whatever.

Starting point is 01:41:08 But when you see a car, your first question is, who built that? Why is it that when we see these complex structures, complex and replicating structures and things like that? Why is it that we don't ask, who did that? Instead, we just say, I think it just happened, you know? I think the reason many people don't ask that is because they don't want to know the answer. That's right.

Starting point is 01:41:31 That's right. I mean, I'm just being honest with you, David. I mean, look at Stephen Hawking, okay. A lot of respect for Stephen. I was the first correspondent to interview him in England, first TV correspondent, because he was very shy about being interviewed. He didn't want to. He was already in a wheelchair.

Starting point is 01:41:47 He was hard to understand. Plus, he was very wary of the media. But I had met him at Harvard when I was teaching at Harvard. I taught physics at Harvard for like eight years. And during that time, Stephen came to our campus and was there for about like a week. and he gave a series of seminars. The place was packed every time. And I got to know him.

Starting point is 01:42:09 So months later, when he came out with his book about time, a brief history of time, my producers at ABC said, wow, we should interview, you know, Professor Hawking. And I said, well, you know, he's very shy about being interviewed, but I did meet him. Let me give it a shot. So I emailed him. And I said, Professor Hawking, you know, this is Dr. Gillen. We met at Harvard. I said, would you consider allowing me to come to England, to you at Cambridge, to interview you?

Starting point is 01:42:43 And lo and behold, he said, yeah. Now, I had to submit the questions ahead of time because he had to pre-record the answers. So I was a rather interesting interviewer, you know, I would ask him a question. He'd push a button and he'd just sit there, you know, looking at me and the recorded answer would play. but he was most gracious. He allowed me to interview his wife. His son, Tim, was quite young at the time. I got to interview him as well.

Starting point is 01:43:08 But I'm telling you this for a reason. So I have a lot of respect for Stephen. But, you know, he at the end was an atheist. And he was this kind of guy. It was like, why don't you just ask yourself, you know, if you look at the Mona Lisa, you don't entertain the idea that somehow the Mona Lisa happened by accident. Exactly. that somehow the Mona Lisa painted itself.

Starting point is 01:43:31 So for Professor Hawking, why wouldn't you apply the same rigor, the same critical thinking to the universe? But he just, he didn't want the answer. He did not want to face up to the possibility that there was a God. So to the end, David, to the end, he said this. And this is a quote he's now famous for. It's one of the last things he said before he died. May he rest in peace.

Starting point is 01:43:56 he said well talking about the quantum vacuum this everything nothing weird weird everything nothing thing right he said well where there is the gravitational field within the quantum vacuum it's what we call a gravitational virtual field

Starting point is 01:44:15 he said the universe will create itself that's what he said that was his parting shot to the world before he departed to the next world right So I'll say that again. So where there, you can have an absolute nothing,

Starting point is 01:44:30 you have absolutely nothing, but where there is gravity, the universe will create itself. Now, I think a second grader, how do you have gravity? Thank you. That's it. But you see, and he was an intelligent man.

Starting point is 01:44:45 He didn't want to ask himself that quite. A second grader could punch holes into that. Right? Well, but Mr. Hawking, you know, if there's nothing, where did gravity come from? And so this, I don't take that kind of argument seriously. I have a lot of respect for Professor Hawking, but he just didn't want the answer that the evidence was pointing to,

Starting point is 01:45:09 which is the universe was not created by itself. Come on. The universe was created by an intelligent designer. Come on. When I was a kid, go ahead. I was just going to say, we kind of see the same thing with Crick and Watson. They discovered DNA. which to me is the most amazing thing.

Starting point is 01:45:28 We've got, and I think you were there, was it at Cornell, where you said you studied under Carl Sagan, and, you know, he and another guy who set up SETI, like the search for extra, trace, intelligence. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And yet, you know, they're listening for some kind of a pattern or something.

Starting point is 01:45:45 And yet within us, we have the DNA, which is this incredible code that is there. And when they find that, they look elsewhere. They say, well, we're not going to, We're not going to draw the logical conclusion from that. We're going to come up with panspermia or something. It truly is amazing. I think you said it a moment to go perfectly, David,

Starting point is 01:46:05 and that is what scientists are coming around to saying, but they're not following through on it. That's where the dishonest it comes in. What most scientists are now admitting is that whether you're talking or whether you're trying to explain the beginning of the universe or the beginning of life on Earth, you know, some kind of blank slate, where there's nothing and then there's something. You have to have one thing, apart from anything else, you need one thing.

Starting point is 01:46:37 It's called information. Okay. The DNA is the information. Where did that come from? Where did that information come from? With the universe, Professor Hawking was trying to say to us, well, where there is nothing, but there's gravity, almost like, hey, where there's gravity, which is the information.

Starting point is 01:46:57 In other words, he wasn't facing up to the fact that you need information at the beginning. Somehow, information, if there's nothing, somehow information has to come from somewhere, but if it's nothing, it can't come from within, it has to come from some external source. Information has to enter that closed system and disrupt that nothingness and allow that nothing. that nothing to become pregnant with something that becomes everything. But where, so all the questions we're discussing, whether it's the beginning of the universe or whether it's beginning of the life, it all comes down to that. This is the question you have to answer, Mr. Atheist.

Starting point is 01:47:42 Where did the information come from at T equals zero when there was nothing? Absolutely nothing. Not some shenanagan, nothing, everything. I mean absolutely nothing. Where did that information come from? And they won't face up to that. They will not. I've spoken to atheists.

Starting point is 01:48:04 I've spoken to college kids all over the world. They won't face up to that. They just won't. They don't want the answer. They don't want the answer that is obvious. Yeah, truly is amazing. And, you know, I didn't see this conflict from when I was younger. I didn't see the conflict between science and faith that so many people today

Starting point is 01:48:22 see. Because I would go back, you know, looking at the early scientists, people like Isaac Newton, and so many others, even, you know, more recent scientists, would look at the fact that they could understand the universe because it was created by an intelligence. It was created with a purpose. So I can try to discover the purpose, the organizing, the rules that God had an intelligence has created and set this together with. That was really kind of the basis of where many of these giants of early science were really coming from. Yeah. The universe is intelligible because it was created by an intelligible being.

Starting point is 01:49:02 That's right. The creation, the being himself is not fully intelligible, but his act of creation is intelligible. He imbued it with reason. And you have people even like Carl Sagan, who are oftentimes quoted by atheists. Well, Carl said more than once, and he's on record. You can Google it. He is not an atheist. He and he said very plainly,

Starting point is 01:49:28 science does not defend atheism. The science is incompatible with atheism because atheism makes an assertion that is scientifically unprovable. It makes an assertion that there is absolutely no evidence and there will never be any evidence for the existence of God. That's not trying to prove a negative. It's you're you're trying to you're trying to disprove a hypothesis with without any support for it. And so agnosticism, yeah, that's a reasonable place to be. If you if you can't bring yourself to believing in God, if you're not able to bring yourself to believing in Jesus for whatever reason, then yeah, agnosticism is as a is a reasonable position to take. I don't, I honestly can't.

Starting point is 01:50:18 offend it because I just don't because I've just seen the evidence, the overwhelming evidence for the existence of God. Einstein the same thing. Einstein is on record as saying, I am not an atheist. And furthermore, he went on to say, which is apropos would you just said, David, is that the fact the universe is intelligible is itself a miracle. It's an indication that it was, it was not, it didn't happen by accident. Accidents are not intelligible. When two cars come together and a head-on collision, the result of it is chaos. It's just unintelligible. It's an unintelligible mess. The universe is far from being an unintelligible mess. And so for me, as I was studying the universe, I was an atheist right up until I would say the middle of my grad school. Then I started asking

Starting point is 01:51:11 questions and I embarked on this scientific religious journey. I started with Hinduism. Then I got into Chinese mysticism and transcendental meditation and Islam and Judaism and so forth. And it wasn't until I was really in my 40s that I stepped back and I thought, you know what, if I want to be this intellectually honest person that I see myself being, that I want to be, then I've got to just drop to my knees and admit that if I look at the evidence that science has presented to me with an open mind, not edit it down and say, well, God's not, if I just look at all the evidence that I have learned as a physicist and an astronomer and a mathematician with an open mind, I mean, it's a no-brainer. It's like this giant finger

Starting point is 01:52:03 point, you know, giant pointer finger pointing to the existence of God. There's just, and that's why I'm so settled or I'm so at peace with what I believe. There's no, there's no, there's no between me as a scientist and me as a Christian, zero. I've written a book called Amazing Truths, how science in the Bible agree. I can tell you what I believe in detail, David. We don't have time in this company, but I could tell you, just write down,

Starting point is 01:52:32 go down the list and say, what do you believe, Dr. G, and why do you believe it? Can you defend it? Is there any evidence? You know, when I was a kid, I thought that science was evidence-based, and religion was faith-based. So I looked my nose down.

Starting point is 01:52:50 Science is evidence-based. Religion, faith-based. That's for weaklings. That's for people who don't value evidence. Well, if you can't figure it out, what you think is the great sky god that did it, right? You just attribute it to that. That's the way it's typically portrayed in the movies, right?

Starting point is 01:53:07 Yeah, exactly. So as somebody you really can't figure it out. Yeah, but what I've discovered, David, is now at this stage, of my life and very retrospective and very introspective as well. And I realize that both science and religion are both evidence-based and faith-based. It takes evidence and faith to believe in science, and it takes evidence and faith to believe in God. Now, there are some people who say, well, I don't need any evidence.

Starting point is 01:53:40 Well, at the very least, you're using the Bible as evidence, right? I think that it would be hard for me to take anyone serious who lives in a vacuum and says, well, I just believe. Because even Romans says, you know, when you look at the sky, the sky absolves you of any excuse for not believing in God, right? When you look up at the stars and, you know, behold what's been created, you know, they speak of God's existence. And so whether you're some native somewhere in the Congo,

Starting point is 01:54:10 you may not have a Bible, but you look up at the sky and the heavens declare the glory of the Lord. That's right. But somebody who's brought up in a vacuum, I don't think they're just going to spontaneously, you know, believe in God. Maybe they will. But I think both my Christianity, my Christian worldview is solidly based on evidence and on faith. And my scientific worldview, which is entirely compatible with the Christian worldview, is also based on evidence. it's also based on faith. I have to have faith in the scientific method at the very least in order to give value to what the scientific method produces as evidence.

Starting point is 01:54:52 Absolutely. Yeah. As you point out, I hope that makes sense. I'm trying to summarize complicated ideas in just a few minutes, but I hope that makes sense. It's been a tremendous transformation. And this movie is my journey. Yeah, and it's such a great movie. I love the documentary, especially some of the things we haven't gotten into, like quantum physics, which is just so head-twisting, crazy. We look up and we see the stars, and as you quoted from the Bible, you know, of heavens declare the glory of God. And, you know, night after night, day after day, they speak without a sound, right? So they're speaking to us in a sense. But let me ask you this.

Starting point is 01:55:29 I think we have all these different religions because so many people understand that there's a creator behind all of these different things. what was it that you said you explored all these different religions what was it that got you to fixate on Christianity I'll never forget this co-ed at Cornell who challenged me to read the Bible who I ended up marrying we're now been married for 34 years Laurel and God bless her and God used her to kind of rain me in and I remember reading the Old Testament it didn't really impressed me too much because like all other religions it came across to me as very logical you know an eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth you hurt me i hurt you that's karma um so i'll nearly every major eastern religion and the old testament has this kind of fundamental logic to it

Starting point is 01:56:25 you know love your love your friends hate your enemies that kind of a thing but when i got when we got to the new testament um it was a very different thing when i I started reading what Jesus was saying, this character. Jesus was unlike any other sacred figure ever, very different from Buddha, very different from Confucius, all of these other sacred figures, again, spoke in very logical terms. Jesus didn't. He said, hey, if you're first, you're going to be last. If you're going to be last, you're going to be first.

Starting point is 01:57:00 If you want to live, you have to die. You should love your enemies, not just your friends. and so forth. And someone was like, what? This doesn't make sense. Jesus is turning logic on its head. And the reason that struck me, David,

Starting point is 01:57:15 is because it was at a time, it was about the second year of my grad studies at Cornell when I was knee-deep in quantum mechanics. And quantum mechanics, as you can tell from watching the movie, is equally illogical. I call it translogical. So I made this immediate connection between the words

Starting point is 01:57:34 coming out of Jesus' mouth, which were translogical, and the words coming out of my classroom in quantum mechanics, which was also translogical. And that was enough to kind of get my attention. I didn't, you know, immediately convert to Christianity. As I said, I'm very hard-headed. I'm an intellectual. It wasn't another 20 years before I finally had that day of reckoning that I described to you a moment to go. And I said, you know, if I compare all the religions that I have immersed myself in. I have to say that the Christian worldview, the Christian worldview is head and shoulders the most consistent with what science is revealed about creation. That what the Bible reveals about creation and what science reveals about the creation are like that. I agree. And the truth spoken by Jesus

Starting point is 01:58:34 are similar in nature to the truths that quantum mechanics has revealed about the essence, the DNA of the universe. I don't know how else to put it. It's just an amazing confluence. So when I hear people saying, well, how can you be a scientist and a Christian? They conflict. I'm like, oh, my gosh, I don't even know where to begin to set you straight. It was a long journey for you, right?

Starting point is 01:58:59 And not only are they compatible, David, they are. they are synergistic. They live with one another. What I've learned in science about God's creation informs and uplifts what I read about creation in the Bible and about this beautiful God, this beautiful, loving, brilliant God. It's just, I'm in ecstasy right now.

Starting point is 01:59:20 I have never been happier, never been more assured of what I believe and why I believe. I'm not afraid of death. There's a part of me that God forgive me. I mean, I'm just looking forward. to stepping to the other side because I'm promised by the Bible, then that's when my eyes are going to be open. For a scientist, that's like a Chinese fay. That's like a being promised a feast, right?

Starting point is 01:59:44 An intellectual feast that I get to figure out what is dark matter, what's dark energy, what is all this stuff that we're just barely glimpsing at scientifically. That's right. Yeah, my son who's recording this says sometimes the hope is what sparks the reason. sometimes reason sparks the hope. And I think that is very true. That's excellent, so I agree with that.

Starting point is 02:00:07 You know, I can't remember who it was that I saw say this, but he said, you know, I'd studied all these different religions and he said, they all had a very high regard for Jesus. And it was kind of like the thing

Starting point is 02:00:17 that C.S. Lewis said, you know, he's either liar, lunatic, or Lord. And so he said, if they're all saying, Jesus is this great guy, and he said, and yet Jesus said,

Starting point is 02:00:28 I am the way. So maybe I'd just go straight to the source. That was his answer for that. But there was a lot. Sure, go ahead. Amen, David. But I want to comment on what Lance just said, because I do think that's,

Starting point is 02:00:44 that is profound what he just said. Because I, you know, there is a passage in the Bible. I don't know word by word. But it basically says, look, be prepared to explain the source of your hope in life. You know the verse I'm talking about, right? Yeah. The verse admonishes each of us. It says, be prepared to explain the source of your hope.

Starting point is 02:01:05 Or words to that effect. So when people say to me, well, I just believe because I just believe, they have a kind of a blind faith. I say, well, you know, God bless you for that. But what if somebody comes up to you and asks you this question? What is the source of your belief? What's the source of your hope? And all you can say to them is, well, I believe just because I believe. That's not going to help anybody.

Starting point is 02:01:27 That's right. I think that as a scientist and as a Christian, when people ask me, what's the source of your hope, Dr. G? I've written books in answer to that question. That's why I get messages from people all over the world. Latest count, 57 countries and all 50 states, people following me because I'm able, I'm in a position to be faithful to that biblical verse that asks me to explain the source of my hope. And so I just, I'm saying that because if people who are listening, there might be some, they say, you know, I don't need to watch the movie. I don't need to know about all this stuff Dr. G's talking to me about the, you know, the universe and all that. I believe because I believe.

Starting point is 02:02:10 Again, God bless you. I really envy you in some way. But just, but think not just about yourself. Think about somebody who you can help open their eyes. Exactly. And you're not going to open their eyes. by you just saying, well, you know, I know, good luck, finding that out for yourself because I know because I just know. That doesn't help anybody. And so one of the reasons I made the movie was to give

Starting point is 02:02:36 people information that will help explain the source of their hope and help somebody else understand the source of your hope as a Christian. That's what my movie ultimately is all about. It's the story of how science shattered my atheism, opened my eyes to the existence. of God. It's my testimony in an 80-minute movie. And when I'm dead and gone, it's going to remain my testimony. It's going to be my answer to the question the Bible says I should answer. Explain, be prepared to explain the source of your hope. That movie, the invisible everywhere, is the explanation for my hope. It's the explanation for why I have come to believe in Jesus Christ and make him my Lord and Savior. It is the reason why I have come to understand

Starting point is 02:03:25 that, yes, the heavens declare the glory of the Lord loud and clear from the tiniest things to the biggest things. It's beautiful, David. It's just beautiful. And I just want to share that with others. Yes, yes. And as a matter of fact, when Lance put that down, I didn't read the verse, but always be ready to give an answer to people for the hope that is within you. And that is exactly what your documentary does. And it's an excellent testimony that you have there. And we didn't even get into all the oddities of quantum physics, which still just is mind-blowing to me when I look at it. Or what you talked about in terms of the brain, the mind, and what is consciousness. This is something that the transhumanists and the people like Ray Kurzweil who are looking at the singularity,

Starting point is 02:04:13 they're constantly, and I've come across this with a lot of the transhumanists that I've talked to, and people are working on artificial intelligence in the early days, they would think that if they came up with something that was a physical recreation of the human brain somehow, but it was artificial, that somehow it would come to life, it would be conscious. And I thought,

Starting point is 02:04:34 you know, that is just, when we start talking about artificial intelligence and consciousness comes in, it's another one of those things, as you point out in your documentary, that people really don't have a good answer for. And it is at the heart of a lot, of this what is going around right now with artificial intelligence.

Starting point is 02:04:51 And of course, we were talking about atheists, Richard Dawkins got pulled into this AI psychosis. A couple of weeks ago, I don't know if you saw that or not, but he says, I'm having a hard time convincing myself. I'm working with AI right now, and I'm trying to convince myself that this is not conscious, and I'm losing, or something to that effect. I'm paraphrasing it.

Starting point is 02:05:12 But he really got raped to cost a cold for that because he doesn't want to believe in God. but do you believe in the artificial intelligence being conscious? Oh, yeah, and you know, have people like Dan Brown, you know, the Da Vinci Code and all this, who claims that a computer program can become so complicated that it will become God. It's this concept of emergence, you know, that from complexity, certain properties will emerge, like soulfulness or consciousness. Well, there's no evidence for that yet. It's wishful thinking.

Starting point is 02:05:43 It's also just a philosophy that is not supported by the evidence. talk about that in the movie. You're right. I also talk about the question, are we alone? Are we just another animal? Or is there something special about us? And is there life after death? I talk about all these big questions because these are the big questions that have always preoccupied me, David. They, ever since I was that kid in second grade. And they should preoccupy everybody. I always asked questions. Everybody. I mean, unless you're brain dead, I guess. Those are the questions, though, of life, really, that give it meaning, they give it perspective. And you've been asking, like you said, you're precocious.

Starting point is 02:06:21 So you've been asking yourself that question for a very long time. But again, the documentary is the invisible everywhere. And it is an amazing movie. Everybody needs to see it again so that you can help other people to find what you've come to understand. And I think whenever we do that, it also strengthens our faith as well because it makes everything come together in a different perspective, I think, for us. You know, we'll do that because we're a parent and we want to talk to our kids about that, or maybe we've got family members that we want to talk to about that.

Starting point is 02:06:53 But we all have a situation where there should be somebody that we care enough about that we want to show them the truth of life, which always points to God. I think that's the key thing that you're talking about here. And I think your documentary is an excellent starting point, especially because it gets right into where science is right now and these amazing mysteries that are there. We could call them contradictions, but they seem to be contradictions, but it's because we don't really understand them. That's what we always say when somebody will look at the Bible and say, well, that appears to be a contradiction in terms of how God is perceived when I read that. And yet we look at

Starting point is 02:07:32 it and we say, no, that really better described as a mystery simply because you don't understand it. That's why it appears to be a contradiction. Now, your website, what was the website where I found? I've got to written down here somewhere. Yeah, you can go, and thank you, David. You can go to Theinvisible Everywhere.com, theinvisible Everywhere.com. Or you can just go to Michael Gillen.com.

Starting point is 02:07:55 It'll take you to the box office. And yeah, you know, I have a Genzi son. Laurel and I have a Genzi son. I've tried always not to preach to him. So when I was making this movie, I wanted to be certain that this is not a sermon in the can. This is not a sermon in the can. There's no preachiness.

Starting point is 02:08:12 It's just me telling you my journey. And so what I'm hearing from people all over the world is it's the perfect movie you can sit down with your child. I would say 12 plus, 12, 13 plus. Just sit down with your child and just say, hey, there's this fascinating movie about science. And it is. It's it, Stephen Meyer, the endorsement he gave, very enthusiastic endorsement called it a brilliant, I think he said something like brilliantly highlights or brilliantly presents modern physics or something like that. And Dr. Rice Brooks, the wrote God's Not Dead has also endorsed it. Hugh Ross and his wife, Kathy Ross, over at Reasons to Believe, have endorsed it.

Starting point is 02:08:57 It's a movie that you can sit down with and know that it's not going to preach to you. you. I don't believe in preaching. I just believe in speaking truth with love. And that's all this movie is. It's stunning visuals, as you can see. The music is beautiful. People comment on the music and how beautiful it is. It's just uplifting. And it will leave you wondering. It will leave you with your mind spinning. But it's not preachy and it's not a sermon. So you can watch it with your loved ones without fear of being accused of, ah, ma, I didn't want to hear. I don't want to hear a sermon. No, it's fascinating stuff. It is fascinating. Because we're hearing all the time about quantum mechanics and things like that.

Starting point is 02:09:35 And we're going to be hearing more about it because of quantum computing. And that's one of the things that really is strange to me how something that is so unpredictable can be used in something that is so deterministic as a computer. That is an air contradiction to me. I mean, I can understand ones and zeros and I can understand on or off of that type of binary state. But when we start talking about quantum physics, it's like, well, how do you even turn that into something that can render an answer? So again, I was very curious to see that. And so there's all these different things in there. I'm sorry, just to say that, you know, all the questions that the movie asks and answers, like you said, you know, where did the universe come from?

Starting point is 02:10:16 How did life begin? What is human consciousness? Are we just another animal? Are we alone? Is there life after death, et cetera? Where is the mind located? What's the difference between the brain and the mind? All those questions, I believe God wired us to be curious.

Starting point is 02:10:30 God has wired us to ask these questions because he knew that if we diligently pursue answers, honestly, diligently with an open mind, the answers will lead us to him. And that's what I hope this movie does by asking these questions and explaining to the viewer what modern science has to say. Not in my opinion, not dog. It's just what is modern science discovering about the answers to these deep questions? in the end you'll see it points so clearly to God, the creator. I'm just so proud of the movie, but to God alone be the glory. It's a movie that was funded by prayer. I'm just pleased to talk to you about it,

Starting point is 02:11:14 and I just really want to thank you for the time you've given me to share my story with you, Dave. Well, I want to thank you for the movie, and what you were saying there is absolutely true. We have that promise from God, seek, and you will find. Knock and it will be open, ask, and it'll be given. Thank you so much for joining. sir. And again, as people can see, your website there is underneath your name on the video. So go there and you'll find the links to where you can find the documentary.

Starting point is 02:11:38 It's an excellent resource. It's an excellent movie, excellent documentary production values or top-notch. Thank you so much for what you did. I appreciate it. Thank you, David. God bless you and your audience. Thank you. God bless you. The common man. They created common core to dumb down our children. They created common past to track and control us. Their commons project to make sure the commoners own nothing and the communist future. They see the common man is simple, unsophisticated, ordinary.

Starting point is 02:12:23 But each of us has worth and dignity created in the image of God. That is what we have in common. That is what they want to take away. Their most powerful weapons are isolation. deception, intimidation. They desire to know everything about us while they hide everything from us. It's time to turn that around and expose what they want to hide. Please share the information and links you'll find at the Davidnightshow.com. Thank you for listening. Thank you for sharing.

Starting point is 02:12:58 If you can't support us financially, please keep us in your prayers. TheDavidnightshow.com.

The David Knight Show - Fri Episode #2284: — The Untold Cost of COVID Compliance

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