The David Knight Show - INTERVIEW John Kiriakou on Geopolitics, US Politics, JFK Assassination & more

Episode Date: June 2, 2023

CIA whistleblower, John Kiriakou, joinsPardons for sale in the Trump administration? Kiriakou's experience with Rudy Giuliani The importance of the Wagner Group and Ukraine. The plan to assassinate Julian Assange and what it meant to label him as a "hostile non-state intelligence actor"RFKj and the vaccine issueWhat RFKj heard as a child from the CIA Director regarding JFK assassinationWhat John says happened on 911DeSantis and torture at Gitmo Find out more about the show and where you can watch it atTheDavidKnightShow.com If you would like to support the show and our family please consider subscribing monthly here: SubscribeStar https://www.subscribestar.com/the-david-knight-showOr you can send a donation through Mail: David Knight POB 994 Kodak, TN 37764Zelle: @[e-mail] App at: $davidknightshowBTC to: bc1qkuec29hkuye4xse9unh7nptvu3y9qmv24vanh7Money is only what YOU hold: Go to DavidKnight.gold for great deals on physical gold/silverFor 10% off Gerald Celente's prescient Trends Journal, go to TrendsJournal.com and enter the code KNIGHTBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-david-knight-show--2653468/support.

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No, we bet more power to you. T's and C's apply 18 plus bet responsibly gambling care. A friend of mine said, you need to get to Rudy Giuliani. Giuliani's getting all kinds of people pardoned. And the sad truth is, and I hate to sound crass, but pardons were for sale in the Trump administration. They really were. So, so I reached out to a guy who I know who works for Giuliani.

And I said, you know, listen, I, I'm really interested in a pardon. Here's my story. Here's who I've spoken to. I've got Tucker Carlson helping me and a couple of other people, Alan Dershowitz. And he said, well, as it turns out, we're going to be in Washington next week. So why don't we all get together? I said, great. I'll meet up with you anytime you want. And he said, and I should have known from the beginning, this was a problem. He said, well, we've got to meet before two because Rudy's usually so drunk by two that he can't get any work done.

And I said, OK. So we met at noon at the Trump Hotel and it was Giuliani, his number two, my lobbyist and me. And so we're talking about, you know, the weather and the bar is really nice. And, oh, there goes, you know, Matt Gates walking into the bar. And I said, so about the issue of this pardon. And as soon as I said it, Giuliani says, I have to hit the head. And he stood up and he walked away.

And I looked at his number two and I said, what just happened? And he said, you never talk business with Rudy. You talk business with me and then I pass it to Rudy. Like it's the Sopranos, right? Exactly. It literally is. Yeah. So I said, all right, I want a pardon. I need a presidential pardon. And I just can't seem to get any traction. And he said, well, Rudy's going to want two million bucks. And I said, two million bucks.

First of all, I don't have two million bucks. And even if I did, I wouldn't spend it to recover a $770,000 pension. And he said, okay, well, it's 2 million. And that was the end of it. And Giuliani came back from the men's room. We shook hands and I walked out and that was the end of it. Well, it turned out he had been doing this with a lot of people. And I saw later in the New York Times, there was an article about his divorce, which I think is his fourth divorce. But he said that he's a member of 17 country clubs and that he needs $6 dollars a year to to maintain his current lifestyle. So this is what he was doing. He was just trying to gouge people as best he could at the end of the of the Trump administration

because he had gone all in on Trump and he knew that if Trump were to lose the election, he was done. And that's exactly what's happened. Giuliani, you know, he's going to end up selling single cigarettes on the street corner. Maybe hair dye. If this goes any longer, yeah. Maybe he could get a hair dye sponsor. That's right.

I used to have this problem when I would start sweating and when I was lying and my hair dye would run down my face. But with this new improved brand, this is why you should use this brand. This never happens to me again. That guy is absolutely an amazing clown. And, of course, you know, he was grifting everybody. This whole stop the steal thing was such an amazing gift. Yes.

All right, joining us now is John Kiriakou, somebody that I've had the pleasure to talk to many times, very knowledgeable about a lot of things. A guy who had the integrity to blow the whistle on torture because it was wrong. Torture that lied us into the Iraq war, lies about weapons of mass destruction. He was the only one who was punished for the torture because he blew the whistle on it, not because he did it. People who did it got away scot-free. As a matter of fact, Gina Haspel was Trump's CIA director who did the cover-up. But he's joining us now.

He's very busy. I really do appreciate him coming on for this prerecorded interview. He's got a weekday radio program from noon to 2 in Washington, D.C. on the radio. You can also find it on Substack. He's got a Substack account there, John Kiriakou. That's K-I-R-I-A-K-O-U. And the show is Political Misfits. Thank you for joining us, John.

Thank you, David. It's such a pleasure to see you again. It's good to talk to you. It's been a while. And I wanted to get you on because, you know, we've talked a couple of times about this whole Rudy Giuliani thing. And I'm sure that your phone's been ringing off the hook for the last couple of weeks about this after this lawsuit. And because the same thing happened to you.

And you've now had a confirmation from this woman in the lawsuit that Giuliani was selling pardons for $2 million. To your knowledge, you know, she said she's got tapes about this stuff. To your knowledge, does she have any tapes about the bribery aspect of it? There's allegations of sexual misconduct and things like that, but is there any existing tapes about the bribery part? That I haven't heard. And, you know, we should probably say at the outset, too, that what this woman is saying in the lawsuit, well, she's saying a lot of things in the lawsuit well she's saying a lot of things in the lawsuit but one of the things that she's saying is that Giuliani had bragged to her that he was splitting this money these two million dollar sales of of pardons with Donald Trump and there's no evidence at all that that's the case certainly never said to me that he was going to split $2 million with Donald Trump.

Yeah, that's why when I looked at this, I thought, you know, if this is, if she can substantiate this with radio, with recordings of this, if she can substantiate that, that would be, I think, perhaps the most damaging of any of the allegations against Trump right there. And that's huge. I agree with you. It would be such a clear uh felony that uh it would be the end really for for any for any politician or or current or former president to to sell something like a pardon would be the end and so it surprises me because i can understand

why the conservative press would not talk about it but i would have thought that there'd be all this rampant uh you know oh i, I think we got him again. You know, you see all the time from the mainstream media and the left wing press. I would have thought that this would have been a feeding frenzy to try to get information about it. But it was just a little blip and then just kind of disappeared. My take on it is that I really do think that they want him to get the nomination. That's just my take on it. I don't know what you think. I think that there's him to get the nomination just my take on it i don't know what you think i think that there's something to that yes you know no i don't want to get us too far off the topic

but um in the uh in the what was it the 2022 election the democrats took a lot of heat for funneling money to the most conservative senate candidates and gubernatorial candidates in the country that's right and that enraged a lot of of people farther to the left than the dnc um but their point was that they were willing to take a shot to to to help the most easily attacked candidates win republican nominations uh you know interfering in each other's political parties is just not democracy. It's one of those sad situations in this duopoly that we have, the two sides of the same coin. Well, of course they're going to donate money to each other's extremist candidates. That's what makes this world go round.

That's right. And it's what gets us world go around. That's right. Yeah. And it's what gets us in the kind of situation that we're in. Although there seems to be a lot of agreement on things like foreign policy. And I want to talk, get your take on what is happening in Russia, because we keep seeing escalation after escalation after escalation. And many of us are just sitting here on the sidelines, wondering how this is all going to end. I'd kind of like to get your take as to how you see this ending. They're doing everything to make it clear that this is an existential fight for Russia. I had an interview many years ago with Alexander Dugan, and he's been saying this since Yugoslavia and that type of thing, that NATO is coming for Russia.

And they're doing everything they can to validate that assumption. Now with the F-16s that are there, I don't really know how effective those are going to be as weapons, but it's a constant escalation. We have the drone attacks. How do you see this playing out? Do you think that Russia is going to settle for taking the eastern part of Ukraine and kind of having a neutral buffer. That's what some people who said maybe we could have peace if that were to happen. Is this going to result in the kind of regime change that they're looking for, or are we going to wind up in some kind of a Dr. Strangelove nuclear war? What do you think?

Or something else? This is a very complicated situation. You know, I had occasion to meet last Friday with a very senior Russian government official, very senior, like cabinet level. And he laid it out very plainly, very clearly that Russia is enormous. It spans 11 time zones. It has 200 million people. It has an army that's something like five or six times the size of Ukraine's army. And while we in the West joke

that the United States is willing to fight to the last Ukrainian, that's exactly what the Russians intend to do. They'll fight the very ukrainian he said the bottom line is the united states can send whatever it wants to ukraine missiles planes ammunition patriots you know it makes no difference that russia will win whether it takes a year or 10 years or 100 years russia will win because it can't lose it can can't lose because Ukraine is an existential threat. On multiple occasions since the Clinton administration, the United States, Lithuania, and Estonia to join NATO. Romania, which isn't on the border, but it's pretty darn close, joined NATO. We've allowed and supported Montenegro, for example, and North Macedonia. What national interests do we have in those countries that we're going to go to the

defense of of montenegro and north macedonia come on kosovo being next like how many times are we going to tell the russians that we're not a threat to them this is just to protect us and then we push right up to the border they just don't understand it and they don't believe us yeah you know in the clinton administration i was still in the cia during the clinton administration and um there was a lot of talk of the russians joining nato right because the soviet union had fallen the warsaw pact ceased to exist. And our fight was, at the time, we said it was going to be against Muslim extremism. This is in the days just before and during the creation of Al-Qaeda. Maybe farther out, it might be China or North Korea. But as far as we were concerned,

we had no problem with Russia. They were a Christian country. They're white, frankly. And so they were easier to deal with, let's say. And now those are a problem for the current administration. Being a Christian country and a white country, that's a black mark against the kind of current administration we've got now. But, yeah, you know, for the longest time, I think they realized what the real agenda is, that it is an existential fight. But the U.S. is not even trying to hide that anymore. You know, you got Lindsey Graham and other people. They're making it very clear this is about regime change. And I thought it was very interesting.

What was your take on the Wagner group when you had Bergozin after the fall of Bakhmut? And he had a lot of harsh words for russia for the uh the russian bureaucracy he said they were throwing sand in the gears as they were trying to do this i i thought that was pretty amazing that he was able to say that and uh you know still uh be at large uh evidently the the wagner group is very very important to the war effort right i could say yeah it very important yeah it might be a little bit less important than it was six months ago but without the wagner group uh the russians could not uh reach into uh other parts of the world like africa for example you know the french

were thrown out of most of the sahel countries over the past couple of years and they've been essentially replaced by the wagner group the west refused to help the Democratic Republic of Congo hold off the Rwandans who have attacked it from the East, and it was the Wagner Group that stepped in to help the Democratic Republic of the Congo. And the DRC doesn't have money to pay them, so they gave them mineral rights. Mineral rights. Can you imagine? This is exactly what we're going around the world trying to secure. And the government just gave them to the Wagner Group because they came to assist. So, yeah, the Wagner Group is very, very important.

And I wanted to add something, too. I spoke with a friend of mine today. He was on my radio show today. He's an American citizen. He's got his own radio show from New York. And he tends to be pro-Russian. And he wanted to see the situation on the ground for himself. So he went to the Donbass.

He just got back a couple of days ago. Was promptly put on the Ukrainian kill list, which we can get to in a moment, using U.S. taxpayer money. They put an American citizen on the kill list post his picture his home address and his cell phone number wow but anyway he said that one of the things that struck him the most well two things that really struck him one was that ukraine is shelling the donbass 24 hours a day artillery and hitting civilian targets now this is something that we criticize the russians for all the time because when you attack a civilian target that is a war crime that's right it's quite quite clearly a war crime it's a violation of international law and we criticize the russians every day for hitting

civilian targets in ukraine but the ukrainians are also hitting civilian targets in dunbas and yesterday and the day before in moscow as well why aren't we criticizing them for that? You can't target civilians, period. It's against the law. And it should be against the law for everybody, number one. Number two was when people say on Twitter that the Ukrainians have Nazis that are fighting for them. Not neo-Nazis, actual Nazis. You tend to get your account suspended for saying that on Twitter. But he said that all around Donbass, there are tables set up where Ukrainian Nazis are selling Nazi paraphernalia, Nazi memorabilia, to raise money for the Ukrainian war effort. At this year's Cheltenham, glory rests in the lap of the gods.

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We can't say there are Nazis in Ukraine. You can't say that Nazis are fighting on behalf of the Ukrainians. But that's the truth. It's documented. That's what the Azov Battalion is. It's a Nazi battalion. But we don't talk about things like that. And we don't talk about the fact that this has been going on for a very long time,

that there's shelling of the civilian areas since the CIA coup that happened back in 2014. When we look at this going forward, how do you see this playing out? Because as you said, Russia is so large. And I've been saying this, Gerald Slenty is on frequently. We've been saying this. It's like, you really think you're going to run down uh the russians how did that work for hitler had that work for napoleon these guys are not going to give up they'll never give up and they're larger and so how do you see this uh playing out is this going to go nuclear let's just put it that way yeah yeah this may not be such an original thought but i'll tell tell you what the senior government official told me. He said the United States hates the idea, but the Chinese, the Turks, and the Brazilians are all pushing to be mediators.

And he said, eventually, we're going to get to a point where the american taxpayer is going to be sick and tired of paying for all this where enough ukrainians have been killed that we'll finally get to the negotiating table the united states hates the idea because it's not the united states that would be the one to broker the peace yeah right the chinese just had great success between the iranians and the saudis and between the saudis and the Yemenis. The United States certainly doesn't want to see Chinese success between the Russians and the Ukrainians. But we've thrown our weight behind the Ukrainians. And it's really kind of suicidal.

I was going to ask you about that. You know, you haven't had a lot of experience in the Middle East. And look at the fact that, you fact that China brokered this agreement between Iran and Saudi Arabia, who've been at each other for a very long time. I don't know the roots of that. You probably do. But why didn't the U.S. ever do that? Do you think the U.S. even wanted to have that happen, or would they rather for these different factions to be fighting each other? That's my suspicion. Oh, forgive me for being crude, but I'm going to state a geopolitical fact right here. And it's going to be a little blunt for the diplomatic world. But our relationship

with the Saudis is very, very simple to explain. We buy oil, they buy weapons, period. We don't like each other. We don't like to be with each other, but that doesn't matter because we buy their oil and they buy our weapons. Well, now they're not going to need all the weapons that they normally buy from us. Or maybe they'll buy some from the French or some from the British or maybe some from the Chinese, which would really upset us. But the fact is that peace is against U.S. interests in the region. After 9-11, David, we transitioned into a full-time, wartime economy. And if we were to declare peace anywhere and not be able to sell those weapons and weapon systems, we'll move into recession. And we just can't risk doing that.

And so war is good for us. War all around the world is good for the U. recession. Yeah. And we just can't risk doing that. That's right. And so war is good for us. War all around the world is good for the U.S. economy. We're used to it, right? We've all eaten from that same trough, so to speak. And people, at least here in Washington, don't want to see that end. That's right. Yeah, and of course they would love to see this extended going into China. I had an interview with Paul Charest, who wrote a book for battlegrounds.

And I really wanted to talk to him about artificial intelligence because it was primarily about artificial intelligence. But the four battlegrounds were different aspects of technological competition with China. And it kept coming back to China, China, China. I thought I was going to read a book about artificial intelligence. And it became because he's working with the military industrial complex, it was all about how China was the target with all of this. And of course, I think that has a lot to do with the fact of why they're going after Russia first, because it's not just that they want to have a regime change, but they want to get rid of Russia as a military power because they don't want to

have to fight Russia and China at the same time. Would you say that's correct? Absolutely correct. This Russian government official asked me the other day for my own off-the-record opinion of something that can be done to improve relations between the United States and Russia, even in wartime. And I told him that two things came to mind. I said, even in wartime, the CIA and the whatever the FSB used to be, the KGB, can cooperate in three areas, even during wartime. We can cooperate on narcotics trafficking, right? 93% of the world's heroin comes from Afghanistan, and most of it goes to Russia. Russia and Iran have the highest rates of opioid addiction on the planet. So number one, counter-narcotics. Number two, counter-terrorism. We both hate the Chechens. We both want to crush whatever Al-Qaeda morphs

itself into on any given day. Number three, counter-proliferation. Nuclear proliferation is as much a threat to the Russians as it is to us. We should be cooperating on those given day. Number three, counterproliferation. Nuclear proliferation is as much a threat to the Russians as it is to us. We should be cooperating on those three things. And I said, second, your excellency, I understand that you have laws just like we have laws, but whenever you arrest an American citizen who happens to be doing whatever it is he or she happens to be doing and charge them with espionage and then just hold him or her until there's a prisoner exchange that's a bad look in the united states and he said do you know how many russians are in jails and prisons around america one thousand really he said do you think that the united states government ever offers to release any of those

1 000 prisoners and i, I understand that. And it's wrong. But I'm telling you, the American people don't know that. And if they knew it, they wouldn't care. And so when you arrest Brittany Griner, or Paul Whelan, or anybody else like this kid from the Wall Street Journal, it's a bad look. You should release them. Yeah, that's right. Well, it's a bad look when we have our surrogates arrest people like Julian Assange, isn't it? And you know, that's one of the things that got us on the pardon thing with Rudy Giuliani when we talked about it before. The fact that, you know, this is a real existential threat to free speech. And I know that you've gone to Australia, you've talked mentioned the fact that there was a very, there was essentially a very specific term that they used to refer to Julian Assange as a hostile non-state intelligence actor. Tell us the implications of that label on Julian Assange and who used it. Mike Pompeo used that.

And David, as soon as the words came out of his mouth, the hair on the back of my neck stood up. And it was funny to me because so many in the mainstream media just either ignored it or made a fleeting reference to it. Oh, he said Assange is a hostile non-state counterintelligence actor. Those were very carefully chosen words because whenever the United States, whenever the CIA carries out a covert action program, it has to brief the congressional oversight committees and it has to tell at least the gang of four, that's the chairman and vice chairman of the House and Senate intelligence committees, this is what we intend to do this is what the potential for blowback is and this is why we're doing it it's what we want to see happen in

the end but if the covert action operation is counter intelligence in nature they don't have to brief the committees and the thinking behind that is counterintelligence means foreign spying. And maybe the committees are spying on us, right? Maybe Senator so-and-so or Congressman so-and-so is a spy for the Russians or the Chinese or the North Koreans or the Israelis, for that matter. And so you don't brief them. Well, the plan was, according to Yahoo News, which interviewed 36, count them, 36 current and former CIA officers, the plan was to murder Julian Assange in the street in broad daylight in Knightsbridge, London, or if he were lucky enough, fortunate enough,

to get onto a Russian diplomatic plane to shoot the tires of the plane out in what would be an act of war, at the very least a major international diplomatic incident, to disable the plane and snatch him off of it to kill him then. Wow. Now, why did that not happen? Who got in the way of that? to disable the plane and snatch him off of it to kill him then. Wow.

Now, why did that not happen? Who got in the way of that? Or was it just lucky events? It wasn't clear. I speculated in an interview early on that Donald Trump's second national security advisor, General, I forget his name now, already. There were so many of them. Donald Trump's second national security advisor, General... I forget his name now already. There were so many of them. He went through a lot of people.

He was like the apprentice. He went through a lot of people. The one that replaced General Flynn. Anyway. Was it McMaster? My guess... I don't know. Sorry, go ahead.

My guess is for any covert action program, you have to get the approval of the National Security Advisor. It's more complicated than that. You have to get the Office of Legal Counsel at the Justice Department to sign off. When OLC approves it, it goes to the Attorney General. From the Attorney General, it goes to the National Security Counsel General Counsel. If he approves it, it goes to the national security council general counsel if he approves it it goes to the national security advisor and once everybody's in agreement it goes to the president for his signature and my guess is when it finally got to the national security advisor he said wait a minute wait a minute we're talking about assassinating an Australian citizen, a Five Eyes citizen,

who up until that point had never been charged with a crime. That's right. We're not going to do this. Right. At this year's Cheltenham, glory rests in the lap of the gods. Curses.

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T&C's Apply 18+. Bet responsibly. GamblingCare.ie. And I think that he was the adult in the room who just finally put his foot down. Well, that's good. Yeah. In terms of people who have not been charged with a crime in terms of pardons, you know, I think about, um, Ross Ulbrich was Silk Road and of course, uh, RFK Jr. has said, you know, he would pardon, uh, uh, Julian Assange and, um has said he would pardon Julian Assange and that he would hinted that he might be pardoning Ross Ulbrich as well. What's your take on RFK Jr. in terms of what's going on with Ukraine?

And especially since you were in the CIA, his certainty that the CIA killed both his dad and his uncle? Well, I'm proud to say that I've struck up something of a friendship with RFK Jr. I have a great deal of respect for him. And let's put vaccines aside, because at least on the left, that's the go-to attack against RFK, right? That way you don't have to say, well, you never run against an incumbent president, even if he suffers from dementia or can't put his pants on. They just go straight to the vaccines. And I raised that with him early on.

I said, you're going to have a problem with Democrats on the vaccine issue. And he said, look, the truth is my kids are vaxxed. My wife is pro-vaccine. He said, my beef was with Dr. Fauci enriching himself and with the fact that people were forced to vaccinate their children, even though there was evidence that that vaccines could cause autism right at the very least he said let's investigate this right but nobody wanted to even talk about it so he said the way i'm going to present it on the campaign trail is that i am anti big pharma and big pharma has been in

part the ruination of this country yes and i said that that's the way to go. That's right. RFK is very, how should I say it? RFK is adamant on some of these issues. Number one, on whistleblowers. He very generously, without being prompted or asked by anybody, he very generously tweeted that he would pardon Julian Assange, Ed Snowden, Tom Drake, Daniel Hale, the drone whistleblower, and me. It was an incredibly generous thing to do. And let me ask you- No two million. He doesn't want two million. But not for two million. And let me ask you rhetorically, how many votes is that going to win him? None. How about zero? It'll probably lose him votes.

Yeah. But he said it's the right thing to do. That's right. And so he said he would do it. On Ukraine, and broader than Ukraine, on these bigger issues of war and peace, he is 100% behind the rule of law. And the rule of law is also very clear on war. It says that you cannot attack another country unless that country has attacked you first.

You cannot move into another country unless that country has attacked you or unless you are invited in by the other country or with the approval of the United Nations Security Council. So why are we in two dozen countries around the world? That's right. Why are we in Syria, for example? That's right.

A lot of people were concerned about, amazed to say, well, we got, you know, we had a shelling and we had a civilian that was killed in Syria in the oil fields. It's like, what are we doing there? When do we put boots on the ground? Do you know when we put boots on the ground? I don't remember the press release about that. Do you? No.

But I remember in 2014, John Kerry, as Secretary of State, trying to justify why we were there. And a journalist saying, but wait a minute. It's a sovereign country. Bashar al-Assad, whether you like his politics or not, is the internationally recognized president of that sovereign country. Syria has not attacked us. Syria has not invited us in. And the United Nations has not said that we could put boots on the ground there. And we did it anyway.

Yeah. Why? That's true. It truly is amazing. uh so um yeah let me ask you uh you know since you're in contact with um rfk junior and uh and i'm not one thing that i would like to know since i am a climate skeptic and he has said in the past that he would jail climate skeptics uh you know and i know that you know he he said a lot of stuff about uh free speech question is has he changed his? I think he ought to say if he's changed his position and why, because maybe he's the target of this and he's lived through this.

That would be the obvious explanation if he's changed. But it seems to me like he needs to say that. I agree with you. He needs to say it. He's become much more of a free speech absolutist over the years. And he believes that literally everybody should have their say, so long as you're not encouraging violence against somebody or shouting a fire in a crowded theater, as the old saying goes. But yeah, I think he's evolved on that issue. And you asked me a moment

ago about his position on CIA involvement in the assassination of his uncle. We actually spoke about that. And I said to him, he told me a story that I'll tell you in a second. And I said, you know, that story is of historical importance. You need to publish that. And I mentioned it to Jefferson Morley, who's probably the country's leading scholar on the JFK assassination. And he said he had heard a variation of that story, which fascinated him. He thought it was important too. RFK told me that on the day that his uncle was killed, November 22nd, 1963,

he was in something like fifth grade and his mom drove to the local public school in McLean, Virginia, where they lived, and picked him up early and took him home. And he said when he got home, his father was in the driveway speaking with John McCone, who was the director of the CIA at the time. Now, John McCone and the Kennedys were very, very close. McCone had been appointed by John Kennedy as the CIA director. And almost immediately after he was named the job, his wife died of breast cancer and he was distraught. And the Kennedys, frankly, were afraid that he might harm himself.

And so they invited McCone to have dinner with them every single day. And when the weather was nice, McCone would go to the house. It's called Hickory Hill in McLean. He would swim in the pool and then they would all have dinner together at seven o'clock. So he said his dad was in the driveway speaking with McCone and he overheard his father say, tell me your people didn't do this. And McCone said, I don't know who did this. Bob said, he didn't say, of course my people didn't do this. It was probably the Russians, or it was probably the Cubans, or a lunatic. It was what he didn't say. He didn't say any of that.

He said, I don't know who did it. Wow. And, you know, Oliver Stone's a friend of mine, and he used to needle me quite often in very harsh language, I might add, which is his way of doing things. Because I said to him one time, I made the stupid mistake of saying to him, you know, I think we should look at the mafia too. We should look at Santo Traficante Sr., who, when told that Kennedy was killed, responded, we finally got the son of a bitch. Well, who's we yeah and we know that jack ruby uh through his contacts in new orleans was connected to the trafficante family so i said oh

maybe we should look at the mafia and he was adamant that no it was the cia well you know what i've finally come around to that view i think i don't think think it was an order from the top of the CIA down, go kill the president. But I think that there were angry and violent elements of the CIA who had been humiliated at the Bay of Pigs, who were in leadership positions at the CIA at the time of the Bay of Pigs, that likely had something to do with it. And of course, the CIA is like any other very large bureaucracy. It's not monolithic, right? It's got different factions.

Absolutely right. And that's something that so many people don't understand, especially back then. This is 15 years. Well, not 15. It's 12 years before the creation of oversight committees so the cia had to answer to literally no one they did whatever they wanted whenever and wherever they wanted and who was going to call them on it there was nobody to call them on it that's right yeah and then the nsa they you even denied their existence such agency right for the longest time that's right yeah that is exactly right and until james bamford's book was published uh in what was it the late 1970s the government didn't even admit

there was any such thing called nsa that's right yeah uh kind of interesting uh background well while we're talking about uh before we get on to some other things too because i want to get your take on uh desantis and get mo and some things like that because that disturbs me um but um uh going back to uh some of these seminal uh conspiracies that many of us believe are more than theories what is your take on 9-11 what do you think uh with 9-11 are you a skeptic i was just i not only was i in the c on 9-11, but I was assigned to the counterterrorism center. And I've always been adamant that 9-11 was carried out by Al Qaeda. Now that is not to say that we weren't purposely asleep at the switch. But, you know you mentioned the cia not being a monolith uh the fbi is the same way and the cia most americans underestimated the depth of of hatred that the cia and the fbi

had for each other hatred to the point where um as as americans now know they kept information about the threat from each other for For example, the CIA knew the identities of the hijackers, but thought that they could recruit one or more of them, and so didn't tell the FBI. Well, the FBI knew that the hijackers were in the United States and thought they could recruit one or more of them, and so didn't tell the CIA. And so they're working independently of one another. And it was a perfect storm that allowed them to carry out this operation. Now, the Bush administration, we know, had made a policy decision to not focus on terrorism. They were focused on China. Both Dick Clark, the counterterrorism czar at the NSC, and George Tenet, who was CIA

director, said in their memoirs that they were shouting from the rooftops about the Al-Qaeda threat. I know that that's true because I heard them shouting. It's all anybody ever talked about at the CIA was this big one's coming and we don't know when, we don't know where, but boy, we know it's going to be big and we can't figure it out. So I think that, you know, and I don't want to sound like a kook or anything, but, you know, when you look at the Dick Cheneys of the world and the people under Dick Cheney and the people who had supported and funded the George W. Bush campaign, they were all tied to the military industrial complex. And it's no secret now that 20 years after 9-11, we have the highest concentration of millionaires anywhere in America, right here in Washington, D.C. And that all comes from defense

contracting. So I think that they made a policy decision to just pretend that everything was fine, pretend to look long-term at the Chinese as our existential threat, and allow 9-11 to happen? Yeah, you know, when I look at it, I don't really know what happened on 9-11. I just don't believe any of the official stories like the magic bullet with JFK. You know, the aspects of the third building that was not hit and the three skyscrapers that just come down the footprint. Early video from the Pentagon that didn't show the kind of didn't show plane parts, didn't show, you know, had a very small hole in it. All that type of of things that I look at it, you know, the old whenever anybody asked me about 9-11, I say, well, you know what? Arthur Conan Doyle had his

character Sherlock Holmes say, when you rule out the impossible, what's left no matter how improbable is the truth. And so it seems like when I look at this stuff, that's my answer to it. It's like, I don't know what happened, but I certainly don't believe the government's official story on that. Let's talk a little bit. Yeah, go ahead. One thought there, too. Part of the government's problem is that nobody believes what the 9-11 Commission came up with. And it's because the 9-11 Commission, just like the Warren Commission before it, had its hands tied before it even held its first meeting. You know, when you don't, for example, when you don't allow the commission's members, who are some of the most highly regarded, brightest people and most highly cleared people in all of government, you don't allow them to speak to the CIA officers who were,

who were the ones supposed to be working to, to disrupt this attack. Then what do you, what do you hope to gather from that? So you can't believe anything they say. I will add one thing. I was confronted by a nun recently who yelled at me very pointedly because she said it was a missile that hit the Pentagon. And I said, sister, I said, what do you say to the thousands of people who were stopped in bumper-to-bumper rush hour traffic watching the plane fly into the Pentagon that morning?

One of whom's a friend of mine who was the head of security at the commerce department and she said she said i think that they believe they saw a plane but it happened so quickly and they weren't driving like this looking for a plane they were listening to the radio or looking to at traffic or trying to make a turn or whatever it happened so quickly they didn't realize it was a missile and i said but then sister what about all those people who were on the plane and she said i believe that they were bused to a military base and executed and i said well yeah okay yeah well my one of the things that I find interesting is the fact that you've got the Pentagon,

which has got to be one of the most heavily surveilled areas anywhere in the world, and there's no existent video of a plane or a missile or anything coming in. Yes. Do you find that interesting? The Russians said afterwards to our ambassador that they had a very hard time believing that we did not have surface-to-air missiles all around the Pentagon. What were you people thinking?

What do you mean you don't have surface-to-air missiles? And we don't. We never have. Yeah, but they've got cameras. They've got cameras everywhere. And there were cameras at adjacent places that they confiscated. Let's talk about DeSantis. We've, you know, the torture that's there that you talked about,

that's there at Gitmo, and there's now been some statements made from some prisoners about his time there. I think that's something that's going to resurface during this campaign at some point. Allegations from one prisoner saying, I recognize that guy. He was there while I was being tortured, and he's joking and laughing at these other people. What's your take on that?

I think there's something to that. You know, it's human nature for some people, many of whom I worked with at the CIA, to have wanted to sit in on some of these torture sessions, just to say that they did something to tell their children or their grandchildren, you know, back in the day, uh,

we caught the bad guys and I went in and I watched them get the information from him. It's sick. It's not something you and I would do, but there are a lot of people who would do it. Like I say, I worked with a lot of them. And when we,

we get reports like we did from this one Guantanamo prisoner, who otherwise would never have had any idea who in the world Ron DeSantis was, but then recognized his picture as somebody who had not just sat in on the torture session, but who was a representative of the judge advocate general at Guantanamo at the time. I think it's something that's worthy of investigation and you know it's funny um DeSantis to the best of my knowledge has never denied doing it his his denials are non-denial denials where he says things like I won't even give you the the luxury of an answer that's so preposterous. Okay, well, you didn't say no.

All we're asking is to say, that never happened. I didn't do it. The information is incorrect. He's never said that. That's a ridiculous question. I refuse to answer it. What are we supposed to conclude from that? I think he did it. And like I say, we know that there were CIA people, FBI

people, military people. This has all come out in just the last five years or so, who, even though they weren't authorized to be in the room when the torture was taking place, found themselves in the room anyway. Yeah, absolutely. What is your take on his position in terms of foreign policy? I mean, we pretty much know where people like Nikki Haley, Stan Pence, Stan all the rest of us, uh, your take on that in light of his involvement in Gitmo. One of the things that I really love about the Trump era Republican party is the return to its anti-war roots. You know, this is, this is the republican party of the 1930s

and early 1940s this is something that that the republicans used to have as a major plank in their platform uh about foreign entanglements you know we never get anything positive out of a foreign entanglement i will say though that if you, DeSantis made a mistake when he first announced his candidacy. The mistake being he momentarily, fleetingly expressed support for the Ukraine war. And then everybody jumped on it. And it was as though he said, oh, yeah, yeah, I'm supposed to be against that. And then he went back to his opposition. Like I say, I'm glad to see that this is no longer the party of Dick Cheney. I think Dick Cheney has done a national disservice of historic proportions by bogging us down in some of these forever wars. And by convincing a lot of the American people, whether they're Republicans, Democrats, or independents, that it's our job to be the world's policeman, whether we're asked to

be or not. I'm glad to see that the Republican Party has moved away from that. The Democrats now are the ones that push forever wars. It's better role reversal. That's right. Yeah. It's better role reversal. That's right. Yeah. And ramped it up. And, you know, you mentioned earlier about drugs and, you know, where we could come together on this.

But it's kind of interesting that drug, that the heroin supply and other things like that went down after we got out of Afghanistan. Because it was booming the whole time we were there. We were probably. David, may I tell you something about that? In 2011, I was the chief investigator on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, and I went to Afghanistan to do a formal report, a committee report on heroin trafficking. And I asked the military to fly me down to Kelmand province to a village called Lashkar Gah, which is literally physically in the center of heroin poppy country. For as far as the eye can see, it's nothing but heroin poppy. And I very naively, we drove out to this village and I said to a poppy farmer, and I said, listen, let me ask you a question. Instead of heroin poppy, why don't you grow things that

have two growing seasons, like onions or pomegranates or tomatoes? Why do you grow heroin poppy? And the translator translated my question. And he goes like this. Like he was so frustrated. And he says, look, the Americans told me in 2001 that if I told them where the Arabs were hiding, I could grow as much Poppy as I wanted. And now you come here and you tell me 10 years later I can't grow Poppy? And I said, whaticans told you you could grow heroin poppy and the military escort that i was with says we gotta go it's too dangerous here we gotta go and they physically pulled me into the jeep and we drove back to the helicopter and flew

back to bagram airbase wow that's how i reported it. Yeah. Nobody cared. Well, you know, we had Geraldo Rivera go to the fields and show that the soldiers were guarding it. And the excuse that they gave was, well, these people need to be able to earn a living. And it's like, since when are you concerned about that? We've got a massive welfare state here in the United States. So I think that if you were at all concerned about drug supply, you just put these people on welfare. They don't have a problem bringing in citizens from other countries and putting them on welfare just give them money we've done that in the past that's right and i said to this i said to this uh this colonel that was my escort a lieutenant colonel um why why are we do we have all these american military people down here

there's nothing down here but poppy and he he said, oh, it's to protect the farmers. I said, so they can grow their poppy. He said, no, no, no. The Taliban comes around and gives them sacks of poppy seeds and says that if they don't plant the poppy, they're going to come back and kill their families. I said, that's nonsense. In the year before the 9-11 attacks, you know how much heroin poppy Afghanistan produced? Zero. There was no heroin poppy. They started doing that when we took over Afghanistan.

Yeah, yeah. And got record crops out of it. Before we run out of time, you've got a couple of very interesting books that I know that my audience would be interested in. Surveillance and Surveillance Detection. You did that in 2022. Another book that came out, and these have both come out since I've talked to you, How to Disappear and Live Off the Grid. Let's talk about that one first, because we've just had CBS recently putting out a report talking about how easy it was to take down the entire electric grid here. I think what they came up with, they said, well, all you have to do is take down nine substations and you can black out the entire country pretty much. Is this predictive programming

for us? And of course, you know, getting off the grid, that may not be our decision. Somebody else may be making that decision for us, right? Yeah, it may not. It's hard to live off the grid, but it's doable. You have to change your lifestyle. You have to get used to life without a cell phone. You have to get used to life without the internet. Maybe you even have to come up with a fake name, and sometimes in not so legal ways. I mean, you can certainly change your name. You can move out of the country.

You can go down to Baja, California, as my friend Jesse Ventura has done. He lives literally off the grid for six months out of the year. I have great respect for that. He has incredible self-discipline. I don't know how he does it. He's down there right now. But it's hard to do, but it's doable. It depends in part on why you want to do it. If you want to do it just to not be bothered, yes, it's doable. It depends in part on why you want to do it. If you want to do it just to not be bothered, yes, it's doable. If you want to do it to escape after having committed a crime, it's going to be a lot harder. The big difference is you either have people chasing you or you don't have people chasing you, but it's certainly doable. Yeah, and it's going to be, I think as

people look at this, my audience, I think they're going to be looking at this kind of tying it in with the surveillance aspect of this, because I think everybody's very concerned about this absolute obsession that not just our government, but every government on earth seems to have in terms of giving everybody an ID and a cell phone and tracking and measuring every single thing that we do, the CBDC that's coming out, the smart cities, the 15-minute cities. They want to get us under a complete control grid. And I reported a story this week about a school system in Dallas that is now using artificial intelligence to create a behavioral profile of all the individual students so that it can notice when they have deviated from their baseline behavioral profile and flag them for whatever

reason in a kind of a pre-crime thing. And it's like, why are we trying to create? What kind of a society are we trying to create? I think you can see that in the schools as they've gone through this progression of a police state with metal detectors and constant surveillance and police in the school system. And now with this artificial intelligence, data mining the stuff and creating a profile for the kids, we see this coming in every direction. When you talked about in your book,

surveillance and surveillance detection in 2022, were you talking about something more along the lines of that or more along the lines of somebody putting a tail on you, like the FBI or something like that? I addressed AI in the book, later on in the book, but this was mostly about keeping yourself safe from tails. I said, maybe you're a cheating husband or a cheating wife. Maybe you're being cheated on and you want to do surveillance rather than counter surveillance or surveillance detection. So I went through each issue from both perspectives and tried to put it all in one place. Then I finished the book with exactly what I was taught at the CIA, how to do it and how to prevent it. And I start off the book by saying, just as an example,

I was assigned to a certain country post 9-11. You know what it was, but they wouldn't let me say it. And one day I left the small guest house where I was staying, and I noticed that there was a motorcycle being driven by a guy in a red motorcycle helmet. And he was trying very hard to stay in my blind spot. And the reason why this was a little troubling to me was, I don't even know where you would get a motorcycle helmet in this country. This was the first, they have hundreds of millions of people.

It's the first time I ever saw a motorcycle helmet so i speed up i slow down the guys staying right there in my blind spot and then when i got to uh the diplomatic quarter he split off i worked 14 hours that day 15 hours and it was dark by the time i left and i get in my car and i straight start driving in a kind of a windy twisty way to see if I'm being followed. And sure enough, there he is again. Now, the definition of surveillance is multiple sightings at time and distance. So you see multiple times at different times and at different places. I'm under surveillance. I was nervous about it all night. So the next day, I woke up at five o'clock in the morning. I checked under my car with a mirror to make sure there were no bombs under there.

I looked up and down the street. I didn't see anybody five o'clock in the morning. I get in the car. I start going back to the embassy and there he is again. And he's on me. So I waited for the security officer to arrive, told him what happened. We went to see the station chief and the chief said, after I explained everything, he said, well, you know what you have to do. And I said, well, you know what you have to do.

And I said, yeah, I know what I have to do. And he said, you never had to do that before, did you? And I said, no, never found myself in that position. And he said, well, don't worry about it. We're going to have a team. They're going to be there to help you sign out a gun from the armory. I said, I know I got it all day long. These guys are telling me, don't worry, buddy. Don't worry. We're going to be out there with I said, I know, I got it. All day long, these guys are telling me,

don't worry, buddy. Don't worry, we're going to be out there with you. We've all had to do it. Don't worry. And I wanted to throw up all day because I'm going to kill this guy if I see him this afternoon. That afternoon, I had a meeting

at a joint safe house that we shared with the local intelligence service. And at the end of the meeting, as I was walking out, I had second thoughts. And I stopped and I said, General, let me ask you a question. Are you following me? And he said, No. Why? And I said, Because I'm under surveillance. I'm positive I'm under surveillance. And if I see this guy one more time, I'm going to kill him. And I never saw him again. And later on, we learned that they were all sitting around one day

talking about me. And one of them said, you know, he is such a nice guy. And somebody else said, yeah, nobody's that nice. He's probably pretending to be nice to trick us. And he's probably spying on us. I wonder what he's doing when he's not here. And so they picked the worst possible surveillance officer to surveil me to see what I was doing in my time that I wasn't working with them. And I was going to kill the guy that afternoon. Wow. Wow. You just never know. It's like Rowan Atkinson, you know, the spy who gets the job by default. That's an amazing story. But I'm sure that book and the book about living off the grid, disappearing from the grid, that is, I think, an overwhelming concern of everybody as we look at the obsession of governments in every country. And I have people listening to me.

And we're not the worst. We're not the worst. It's worse, certainly, in the UK. every square inch of the uk is under surveillance it's worse china it's worse in israel yeah i mean it's bad here but it it's going to get a lot worse it's worse in the uae i was in the uae in their command center one day and they had a hundred screens, right? More than a hundred all over the wall. This is a system built by Siemens specific to Dubai. And while we were watching the screen, we saw a taxi hit a light post. Well, before the taxi driver could get out of the taxi to call 911 or 115,

which is their equivalent of 911. We had already sent an ambulance because we watched it happen. So while the guy's on the phone, the ambulance is already arriving. Wow. Complete and total blanket surveillance. Yeah. Yeah. And of course, with artificial intelligence, they'll be able to do individual profiles on all of us,

the pre-crime stuff that is there. It's very concerning, especially when we look at the long history of this. And, you know, people like James Clapper, who famously said they're not doing it intentionally, they've been doing geospatial intelligence intentionally for a couple of decades now, at least, having big conventions about it that the mainstream press never covers. Speaking of that, if you've got just a couple of minutes, you had a recent op-ed piece on Consortium News where you talked about Havana Syndrome. Is it paranoia or reality? Tell us your take on that. You know, I used to

think that Havana Syndrome was relegated to the realm of the mentally ill. And then people who I know and respect started coming down with some of the symptoms. So I decided to do something of my own investigation. I wanted to write about this. And I interviewed people from NSA and from CIA, and I interviewed psychologists and psychiatrists. And I've come to the conclusion, and I think it's pretty well documented, that there is science behind this. Something's happening out there. Now, I don't know if...

I'm not a scientist, and so I can't really speak as to directed energy weapons, although we do know that our government and others have experimented with directed energy weapons. I don't know if the Pentagon is beaming them at innocent civilians walking down the street. I don't want to believe that that's the case. But like I say, people who I respect have documented traumatic brain injuries that just can't otherwise be explained. Now, I don't believe that the CIA sneaks into your bedroom at night and they give you a shot and you're unconscious and they put a chip in your head. I don't believe that. And I believe that a lot of mentally ill people think that they are subject to directed energy attacks. But there are others where the evidence kind of points in that direction.

You know, it's kind of interesting going back to the Navy Yard shooter. I don't know if you remember that, but there's a guy who shot out of uh sure do I have a cousin who was who was in the building at the time wow and when he died you know he had uh carved onto the stock of his gun my ELF weapon and I that kind of rang a bell with me because of a um uh of a paper that was done by Michael Aquino a a guy who was worked for the NSA. He went on Oprah Winfrey talking about, you know, his, uh, temple of a set or something. He has some kind of satanic temple or something. And he wrote a book called mind wars. And in that he talked about, uh, using ELF.

So I was just wondering if anything, and that was pretty old. I was back in the eighties that he did that. And, uh, so I thought that was kind of interesting. I didn't see, you did mention extremely low frequencys that he did that. And so I thought that was kind of interesting. I didn't see, you did mention extremely low frequency radiation and things like that. There was also a Navy scientist and he discovered, his name was Alan Fry, and he discovered the Fry effect. Have you ever heard of that, the Fry effect? Yes, I have.

And so that's when I, when I was looking up the Savannah syndrome, that's when I found the Frye effect and it seemed to kind of line up, but your take on it was that, you know, there are definitely people who are more susceptible to EMF type of radiation, right? Yeah. You know, this is something that I found that, um, a lot of people who go into what's called the radio quiet zone, which is an area in Western Virginia and West Virginia, this is where we have these enormous space telescopes, enormous dishes that are trying to listen to signals coming from other galaxies. There's no cable TV. There's no cable TV.

There's no satellite TV. There are no cell phone towers. There's just nothing. And when people who suffer from these kinds of ailments, these Havana syndrome type ailments go there, they feel better. And so I wonder, I speculate in this piece that you know perhaps for some of them they're just unusually susceptible to to radio waves and low frequency admission

emissions things that the rest of us just don't yeah just don't feel because you know at any given time we're bombarded with you know a million different waves that are just flying through the air. Oh, absolutely. And a lot of people believe that that's something that's responsible for an increase in certain chronic diseases or long-term things. That's right. And all of us, we just are not susceptible to it. I've seen a video that people have taken of pulsing EMF,

and they have a bunch of bugs on a leaf, and the bugs are jerking all in unison, you know, so it would pulse it. So they could sense it as well. That's one of the things that concerns me about 5G. 5G and other technologies that will come along after it, 6G is a completely different thing. But 5G, they're rushing this out. I've seen pictures of them in New York City

putting these antennas right next to people's windows. And the people called up, you know, they said, hey, this is right next to them. They wake up the people called up and they said, hey, this is right next to that. They wake up one morning and there's this big antenna, this alien triffid or something, and it's right there by their window. So this is right by my toddler's bed. And they say, well, sorry about that. And then they say, and there's a label on it that says,

don't put this within 10 feet of people. And so they sent a technician out and he removed the label. But they don't really care what the health effects are. Seriously just seriously they just yeah that was reported uh new york post i think and and it was um uh there was a series of stories as they started putting them up it was a couple of months ago and uh they really don't seem to care about the health uh consequences like we saw with the vaccines and other things like that they're just they've got an agenda they're going to rush that thing through and then the other side of the 5g thing is the surveillance state. You know,

they need that as the, uh, uh, in order to have the broadband data, uh, you know, uh, with the,

that they can broadband, um, to, uh, do the kind of surveillance in real time, uh, analysis of that. And that's really the thing.

They don't really care what happens to us. Uh, as long as they get their ability to spy on every single thing we do that's something that really do you remember when you could take the battery out of your cell phone yeah yeah well you can't do that anymore and the Washington Post did a study not too long ago where where they did a route around the city with a cell phone and then they did the same route around the city with a cell phone, and then they did the same route around the city with the cell phone off, and then they did the same route around the city with the cell phone on,

but with location services off. And all three times, the phone tracked their movements within three feet. Wow. Within three feet. They should have tried that, uh, putting it into a sleeve to, uh, to shield it. Uh, I would be interested to see if it could still do it with that. If there's something internal there, I would imagine it's got to have some kind of radiation there, but that would be the other, other experiment to do with it. Uh, well,

it certainly is interesting to talk to you always in such a broad range of things that you've been involved in. And again, your show is from noon to two o'clock. People can find it on Rumble and tell us the name of the show again that they can look for it on Rumble. It's called Political Misfits. Political Misfits. And I also post a link to it every day on Substack. John Kiriakou. John Kiriakou. That's K-I-R-I-A-K-O-U, right? Thank you, sir. Great. Thank you so much for taking the time. I know how busy you are. It's always a pleasure to see you. It's always great talking to you. Thank you. Bye-bye.

And by the way, we didn't go into the Havana syndrome. I think most of you may know about that, but just in case you don't, these are people who are working at the U.S. and Canadian embassies in foreign countries. They started having ringing in the ears, cognitive dissonance, very disabling mental capacities. Something far beyond temporary cognitive dysfunction. It was permanent and disabling in many of their cases. So thank you for joining us. Always interesting to talk to John Kerry. Thank you. They created Common Core to dumb down our children. They created Common Past to track and control us.

Their Commons Project to make sure the commoners own nothing. And the communist future. They see the common man as simple, unsophisticated, ordinary. But each of us has worth and dignity created in the image of God. That is what we have in common. That is what they want to take away. Their most powerful weapons are isolation, deception, intimidation. They desire to know everything about us while they hide everything from us. It's time to turn that around and expose what they want to hide. Please share the information and links you'll find at thedavidknightshow.com.

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