The David Knight Show - Interview: Quantum Mechanics Led Him to Christ

Episode Date: June 12, 2026

Dr. Michael Guillen (MichaelGuillen.com) — former Harvard physics instructor, Cornell-trained experimental physicist, and 14-year Emmy Award-winning ABC News science editor — walked away from atheism not through religion but through the physics he spent his career studying. His documentary The Invisible Everywhere traces what modern science actually says about the origin of the universe, the beginning of life, the location of consciousness, and quantum mechanics — and argues the honest answers point unmistakably toward a creator. Money should have intrinsic value AND transactional privacy: Go to https://davidknight.gold/ for great deals on physical gold/silver For 10% off Gerald Celente's prescient Trends Journal, go to https://trendsjournal.com/ and enter the code “KNIGHT” For high quality made in America products go to HomeSteadProducts.shop and use promo code “Knight” for 10% off your purchases Find out more about the show and where you can watch it at TheDavidKnightShow.com If you would like to support the show and our family please consider subscribing monthly here: SubscribeStar https://www.subscribestar.com/the-david-knight-show Or you can send a donation throughMail: David Knight POB 994 Kodak, TN 37764Zelle: @[e-mail] App at: $davidknightshowBTC to: bc1qkuec29hkuye4xse9unh7nptvu3y9qmv24vanh7Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-david-knight-show--2653468/support.

All right, joining us now is Dr. Michael Gillen, and he is a long-time presenter of information about science. He has been a former Harvard physics instructor, but he's also worked for ABC News. He's a former Emmy Award-winning ABC News editor for science, and someone who has a very deep, lifelong love of science. And when I saw his documentary, he saw the first information about his documentary, but I now have seen his documentary. It's excellent documentary. The documentary is called The Invisible Everywhere. And in it, he talked about how dedicated he was to science, how that captured his imagination at a very young age.

And yet, when I look at this, one of the reasons that I wanted to talk to, Dr. Goehan, was because I have seen over and over again the false dichotomy that people have where they say, well, it's either science or its faith. Like the two of them are mutually exclusive. I don't think that's the case. It certainly isn't for me, and it's not for Dr. Gillen either at this point in time. So we want to talk to him about his journey. I also want to talk to him, and I think you'll be interested to talk to him about some of the conundrums that we have in modern physics,

things like quantum theory and strange things like that that are part of the invisible everywhere. That is something that I really do not understand, but it was something that helped to bring him toward God and changed him from being an atheist. So I think it's a very interesting journey that he's had. I'm very anxious to talk to him. Thank you for joining us, sir. Oh, David, thank you very much for that generous introduction. I'm so glad you were able to see the movie last night so we can really talk about it up close and personal. Looking forward to our discussion. Thank you, sir. Well, thank you. And of course, you have a very long history of working at ABC. It was interesting to see in the documentary that you've been down to the Titanic.

You've done all sorts of things working for ABC. And that was a very hair-raising experience. You guys thought you were stuck down there, and for quite some time you couldn't get out, right? Yeah, and I'm here. I've lived, I've survived to tell the story, right? Yeah, I've been to the North Pole, the South Pole. Yes, I've been to the bottom of the Atlantic.

I was invited to go there. I think it was September of 2000. I had a deathly fear of water, which I think I got from my mom. So I didn't really want to go, David, but, you know, it was my job. And so I did. And wouldn't you know my luck go down there in this three-man sub? It's me and this British guy who's my diving buddy and our pilot, Victor, who's a Russian,

this is a Russian three-man sub, two and a half miles below the surface. So imagine that. Two and a half miles. I can't even imagine that. No, no, it's really hard. And I remember when we thumped down. at the bottom of the Atlantic after it took us about two hours to get there we corkscrewed down I just thought to myself wow I'm at the bottom of the Atlantic ocean that's like being at the

bottom of the world's biggest swimming pool you know it's like and as we were touring the front part of the ship no problem but when we got to the back part yeah we our little sub got stuck in the giant propeller of the titanic and yeah I was ready to kiss my life goodbye so I tell that story in the movie as you know Yes. It was just one of many stories. 14 years, David. I was at ABC News.

14 years. Wow. And that's a long time. Yeah. I can't even imagine what it's like to go down, that depth and what you need in terms of a vehicle. Of course, we know the tragedy that happened with that other vehicle that imploded instantly like that. Because the pressure is just unbelievable at that depth. I used to scuba dive, and every 33 feet you go down, it's another full atmosphere.

You know, it's another 14 PSI. So going down two and a half miles, I can't even imagine the pressure that's there. You know, I did that segment for 2020, but I also did some of spin-off segments for Good Morning America. And one of the props that I used was a styrofoam cup. When we were on the ship, it was called the Academic Keldish. It's a Russian research ship. we were allowed to kind of use colored pens to paint on styrofoam cups. And then the cups were put into potato sacks that were attached to the outside of the subs

so that when we went down two and a half miles, all these styrofoam cups were subjected to that enormous pressure that you're alluding to. And wouldn't you know when you're going back up to the surface, they're about this big? I wish I knew we were going to talk about this because I'd show it to you. And I remember showing it to Diane Sawyer and she's like, my gosh, I said one picture is worth a thousand words. That's what happened unfortunately to the, I think was it five people in the Titan who lost their lives a couple years ago. And I was talking to media all over the world, David, for like four straight days.

Because I'm one of the few people who have actually almost lost their lives and survived to tell about it. But that's what happened. And I don't mean to be ghoulish or anything like that. But when you're down that far, that's what happened to those poor people. They got all the air got squeezed out of their bodies. And in fact, if you read the accounts now, and again, and I'll just say it and leave it at that because I don't want to become ghoulish about it. But just to give people an appreciation for the pressures that are down there, when the remains

of those passengers were brought to the surface, they were in a very tiny container. So that's what would have happened to me if I had been exposed to those pressures on the outside of the ship, all the air would have been squeezed out of me. So it's literally the, the ocean pressing in on you from all sides, all sides equally. So you maintain your shape, basically, like the little styrofoam cups. They're perfectly shaped, but they're miniature versions of the regular styrofoam cup because all the air has been removed. Anyway, that's probably more than you wanted to know. But I don't actually like thinking about it very much because it was Pretty scary.

You see all the movies about a sub that basically has a problem and can't control its depth and keeps going down further and further and it starts creaking and creaking. And then if it goes far enough, it just all of a sudden just implodes and just crushes in on everything. But yeah, and then looking at the other extent of this, you begin your documentary by talking about the solar system and different galaxies and things like that. That was all really new to me. I've never really focused on astronomy, talking about things. things like clusters, super clusters, filaments, the cosmic web.

You started seeing design in that. That's where it really first caught your attention, I think, was it? It was. And, you know, it's interesting because, you know, when I first wrote the script for the documentary, I just started diving in. Well, this is what we've learned about the universe. And then I thought, well, wait, wait a minute. I don't think most people understand that the solar systems and the stars and the planets and the moon

and the galaxies and clusters of galaxies and the super clusters and the filaments are beautifully designed. I mean, it's like this lacework. It's beautiful. Yeah, it was all new to me. Oh, yeah, it was all new. So I put in that, thank you for validating my decision because, you know, it added another, I don't know, maybe five, six minutes to the movie. But I just really wanted, before we started diving in, I wanted audiences to understand what we're talking about, that the universe is beautiful.

beautifully constructed. It's not just random stars because that's the impression I think most people would get. You look up at night and you're like, oh, okay, lots of stars, but they don't perceive the intricate design of it. So I learned this, and I want to give a big shout out. When I was a grad student at Cornell, I came to know this woman, Margaret Geller, Professor Margaret Geller, who was at Harvard, Smithsonian Institute. and Margaret was one of the first astronomers to discover this pattern, this just stunning pattern in the universe. So Margaret, I know you're out there somewhere. I just really want to give you a shout up for opening my eyes to that beautiful pattern that I shared with you in the movie.

And that was something that I'd never seen before. I mean, I've seen like Dr. Michael Behe's book about intelligent design where he talks about microbiology. And he talks about the systems within systems, within systems. and how they're all designed as little tiny machines and that type of stuff. So you see an intelligence, a design that is there. But I'd never heard that about the clusters and superclusters and this kind of cosmic web that is interwoven as you describe it. We see God's fingerprints on this stuff everywhere, don't we?

We do. And it's interesting because when I, you know, I was born in East L.A., fell in love with science in the second grade. And that dream of becoming a scientist drove me to UCLA. where I got my bachelor's and physics and math. Then I went to Cornell, got my master's in experimental physics. And then it was my intention, David, to get my PhD in experimental high-energy physics, which is the study of really tiny things, not the big things we were just talking about.

But just on the opposite end of the spectrum, I was studying about quarks and gluons and protons and neutrons. And guess what? There's that remarkable structure even down there. And then I changed my mind about two years into my grad studies. And I petitioned to become not an experimental physicist, but a theoretical physicist. And then I became interested in galaxies because there were some really interesting research going on. So my career as a physicist, I'm just fortunate that has spanned literally from the tiniest things,

from the study of the tiniest things in the universe to the very largest things in the universe. So I do have an appreciation for that. And I tried to convey that in the movie because I don't, there are not a lot of scientists who have, and I'm not patting myself on the back. It's just the fact that I have this perspective, this broad perspective of the universe. And you're absolutely right,

whether you look at the microscopic or the biological or the macroscopic or the cosmic. You see God's fingerprints everywhere. It's just undeniable, except it's denied by people who just want. to be you know deaf dumb and blind or willfully death dumb and blind but if you approach the study of the universe as i did with an open mind it's just undeniable that you know god's fingerprints the design is there and so you have to explain it is it a result of an accident of just if it's an accident then it happened on the smallest scale the biological scale the macro scale on the

astronaut so you didn't just hit the jackpot once you have to believe you hit the jackpot like a million different times at all levels of reality. Or you can believe, as I have come to believe, and I didn't always believe this, but I came to believe finally, that it's clearly the design of some brilliant creator. And I'm now a Christian. I was an atheist for many years,

but science really brought me to my knees this way, David. And now I'm a Christian. And of course, one of the things that you talk about is the anthropic principle, which when you look at it as people discover this, they said, well, you know, it looks like the universe was designed for us, and you got all of these factors, and you go into some of those in your documentary, all these different factors that had to be exactly precise. And so, you know, you got this one factor, another one here, and another

one here. All of those had to be exactly the way they are, or everything would fall apart, there wouldn't be any life. And so they look at that, and yet because they are fixated on a particular worldview that they've got, they reject all that. And say, Well, isn't that lucky. And it looks like it's designed for us. And it's got all these different factors. And yet, we know that it wasn't because I've got these previous assumptions that I've got there. I think that's the really the key thing. Because when you do real science, you've got to get rid of assumptions. And you talk about this in your documentary. You say that your motto was always seeing is believing. And yet we can blind ourselves if we don't go

back to actually have an open mind about the data that is there. And so you went and you turned your paradigm upside down. You say, now believe that believing is seeing. Once you start with a understanding that there is a designer, that there's intelligence behind all this, then you can really see how it fits together and you can see that better. Yeah, and you've said so many things in just that one little bit. I don't even know how to reply, except let me do let me, and we can pursue it even more because, yeah, your remarks just now are just rich with meaning, rich with depth. And so let me begin by saying, yes,

when I fell madly in love with science, I was what, like a seven-year-old kid. And I just thought to myself naively that to be a scientist, you had to take a very pragmatic view of things. And so I adopted for myself this motto, seeing as believing, it just seemed like the most reasonable thing for a would-be scientist to believe.

So if I can't see it, I'm not going to believe it. It's the old show me state, the Missouri. Show me. You don't show me. It's like the skeptics motto, right? And I think it was when I was probably around middle school and I was teaching myself the special theory of relativity. I was very precocious. I learned that Einstein's theory revealed to us that there are actually invisible worlds in space time.

And I talk about them in the movie. And that was jarring to me. So I would have been what? If I were, let's say, in the eighth grade, I might have been, you know, barely a teenager. This was jarring to me because I had lived by the motto, seem, is believing. But here was Einstein, my idol. Right. I mean, he's like the physics equivalent of some baseball idol for me.

And he was telling me, no, most of the universe you can't see, actually. And that revelation was carried out even through. at school when I discovered that literally 95% of the universe is invisible to us. It's in the form of dark matter and dark energy. And we have no clue, David. I'm just being honest with you. We have zero clue about what either dark matter or dark energy are. That's one thing.

Let me address another thing that you said. And we can come back to this if you want. But yeah, I would say to give your audience a broad view of what's going on in modern cosmology right now, which is the study of the universe. It's one of my specialties, is that since about 1929, when Hubble made the discovery that the universe is expanding, so about 1929, right, into the 30s and the 40s, cosmology has been plummeted into a crisis. There's no other way to put it. And I'm not overstating it either. I'm not being melodramatic. It's just the fact that modern cosmology is in a crisis. Why do I say that? Well, number one, up until that discovery that Hubble

made, the dogma in cosmology was that the universe we saw today is the very same universe that has always existed and that will always exist. Oh yeah, I've heard that. Right? The universe was unchanging. And I actually, when I was a Cornell, I was just fortunate enough that one of the visiting professors from England was Fred Hoyle and one of the professors there at Cornell were Tommy Gold. Now these names may not mean anything to your audience but these two people, Tom Gold and Fred Hoyle were two out of the three people who desperately, desperately tried David to save the what they call the steady state universe to salvage that old dogma that the universe we see today has always existed and will always exist. Why did they try so, and they failed in the end,

and they were all brilliant. Why did they try so desperately? Why was that a crisis? Because now all of a sudden, for the first time in the history of science, for the first time in modern cosmological history, science had to come up with a way to explain the beginning of the universe. They'd never had to do that before. This was a huge problem for them. And, And this, of course, gave rise to the Big Bang theory. Then there were variations of that. And was it, Hoyle that came up with that moniker, the Big Bang? Yeah, he was in the 40s.

And I tell this story in my book, believing a scene which inspired the movie. Pardon me, but it was in the 1940s, right in the thick of this crisis where astronomers, cosmologists were just tearing their hair out, trying to figure out how, okay, how are we going to explain that there was nothing and then there was a universe. I mean, they had never had to face that problem before, right? And so yeah, the Big Bang Theory had come up, but it had been named yet.

And Fred Hoyle was being interviewed on the BBC, and the host was talking to him the way you're talking to me. And they said, well, Professor Hoyle, what did we hear about you scientists now are coming up with some kind of a theory about how the universe kind of exploded into being? Can you explain that to us? And in a very kind of mocking way,

because remember, he didn't go for that. He was trying to preserve the old dogma of the universe, everlasting universe. He said, oh, yeah, yeah, I call that the Big Bang Theory, right. And, well, it's stuck, and here we are, what, 80 years later, and we're still talking about the Big Bang Theory. That's a crisis, even still, David, because you can say, okay, there was nothing and then there was something and then it was

ignited by some singularity or by the quantum vacuum or you can come up with all kinds of ways to describe the beginning, but you were stuck at the end of the day with, well, okay, but where did the trigger come from? Well, the trigger came from, you know, and then there's all kinds of hand-waving. So they're still really mired in that controversy. But it, It even gets more complicated than that because up until just recently, we thought that what we saw is what there is. In other words, if you look at the universe through our most powerful telescopes, what we see is the observable universe. But now they're having to explain why is 95% of that observable universe invisible. And so now the crisis includes not just trying to figure out how to explain the beginning.

of the universe, how do you explain that 95% of the observable universe is made of stuff you don't even know what it is, dark matter, dark energy? You just put a name to something you don't understand. And it gets even worse to button this up. Because beyond this so-called observable universe, 95% of which is invisible to us, are you ready? Have you got your seatbelt on? there is another universe, the unobservable universe, beyond the cosmic horizon, that is 100% invisible to us. So cosmologists have their hands full trying to figure this out, and they're not succeeding right now. They're not. You know, it's very interesting because always, you know, when I talk to people who are atheists, they would say, well, you know, how do you have a godman?

How do you have a Trinity in these things that are the nature of God that seem to be kind of, contradictory, and yet you're finding in cosmology and in so many other areas, quantum physics and things like that, we see all these contradictions that are there. And again, it starts to point to God, doesn't it? In terms of talk about the nothing and everything of the same time issue. Yeah, look, I get it when atheists say, well, you know, how can you imagine God? I can't imagine God. So let's just establish that. Anybody who says they can imagine God is an amatheas. imagining a very small God. Yeah.

Because if you can fully imagine God, in other words, you can compartmentalize him within your human brain, that's not the God the Bible describes, okay? The God the Bible describes is transcendent. You know, Isaiah, what is it, 55, says, for my ways are not your ways, and my thoughts are not your thoughts. For as higher as heaven is from the earth, my ways and my thoughts are higher than yours. Yes. So that's pretty much a verse putting us in our place and just saying, look, you ain't God.

So don't even try to pretend. So I give that to the atheist. Yeah, when I say I believe in God, I'm admitting to you that I believe in something I can't fully understand. But what I'm saying to you is that I have this faith in God because there's so much evidence that I've discovered in modern science that points to this unfathomable God. all right so let's i just wanted to establish that first so now you look at modern science and you say well modern science um if your argument if you mr atheist is is that oh you believe in some invisible guy in the sky that you can't even fully fathom okay i grant you that but then what's the alternative then you're you're suggesting to me that science is offering me an alternative

that's easier to understand right that's more down to earth that's more practical minded, that's more rational, right? Well, just the opposite has happened, because as I indicated to you a moment ago, when you look at the canonical theory of creation in modern cosmology today, in the beginning was the quantum vacuum, not God, but according to modern cosmology, in the beginning, was something called the quantum vacuum. And I talk about that in the movie as you know. But just briefly, the quantum vacuum is conceived to be by scientists, something that is, on the one hand, nothing, absolutely nothing, nothing. Perfect nothingness. And on the other hand, everything. And this, this, this, so I, so let's pause for a moment.

Okay, Mr. atheist, your complaint about God is that I believe in something I can't fathom. But what's the alternative? The quantum vacuum is no easier to fathom than God. So there goes your excuse for discarding religion. There goes your excuse for embracing science over religion because modern science is now offering me an explanation for the beginning of the universe that's every bit as supernatural as the Bible. Yes.

And you see this not only in questions about how the universe began, but all across the board from the tiniest level to the highest levels. of reality, you see this happening that modern science, rather than becoming more and more practical, more and more demystifying universe, actually modern science is becoming more supernatural, and it's actually deepening the mystery of the universe. And I talk about that in the movie. And I think, you know, when you talk about believing is seeing, what is missing from the things that they are coming up with, this idea of the quantum vacuum that is both everything and nothing, What is missing from all that is the intelligence that is there.

You know, in the beginning, there was the word, the logos, which is intelligence at the very beginning. And the intelligent organization that we see behind these things, the patterns that we can discern in this. And you mentioned in your documentary, of course, the proverbial tornado in a junkyard. It doesn't build buildings or build cars or whatever. But when you see a car, your first question is, who built that? Why is it that when we see these complex structures, complex and replicating structures and things like, why is it that we don't ask, who did that? Instead, we just say, I think it just happened, you know. I think the reason many people don't ask that is because they don't want to know the ants.

That's right. That's right. I mean, I'm just being honest with you, David. I mean, look at Stephen Hawking, okay. But a lot of respect for Stephen. I was the first correspondent to interview him in England. First TV correspondent, because he was very shy about being interviewed. He didn't want to.

He was already in a wheelchair. He was hard to understand. Plus, he was very wary of the media. But I had met him at Harvard when I was teaching at Harvard. I taught physics at Harvard for like eight years. And during that time, Stephen came to our campus and was there for about like a week. And he gave a series of seminars. The place was packed every time.

And I got to know him. So months later, when he came out with his. book about time, a brief history of time. My producers at ABC said, wow, we should interview you know, Professor Hawking. And I said, well, you know, he's very shy about being interviewed, but I did meet him. Let me give it a shot. So I emailed him. And I said, Professor Hawking, you know, this is Dr. Gillen. We met at Harvard. I said, would you consider allowing me to come to England, to you at Cambridge, to interview you. And lo and behold, he said, yeah.

Now, I had to submit the questions ahead of time because he had to pre-record the answers. So it was a rather interesting interviewer. I would ask him a question, he'd push a button and he'd just sit there, you know, looking at me and the recorded answer would play. But he was most gracious. He allowed me to interview his wife.

His son, Tim, was quite young at the time. I got to interview him as well. But I'm telling you this for a reason. So I have a lot of respect for Stephen. But he at the end was an atheist. And he was this kind of guy. It was like, why don't you just ask yourself, you know, if you look at the Mona Lisa, you don't entertain the idea that somehow the Mona Lisa happened by accident. Exactly.

That somehow the Mona Lisa painted itself. So for Professor Hawking, why wouldn't you apply the same rigor, the same critical thinking? to the universe. But he just, he didn't want the answer. He did not want to face up to the possibility that there was a God. So to the end, David, to the end, he said this. And this is a quote he's now famous for. It's one of the last things he said before he died.

May he rest in peace. He said, well, talking about the quantum vacuum, this everything nothing, weird, everything nothing thing, right? He said, well, where there is the gravitational field within the quantum vacuum, it's what we call a gravitational virtual field. He said, the universe will create itself. That's what he said. That was his parting shot to the world before he departed to the next world, right? So I'll say that again.

So where there is, you can have an absolute nothing. You have absolutely nothing. But where there is gravity, the universe will. create itself. Now, I think a second grader... If you got nothing, how do you have gravity? Thank you. That's it. But you see, and he was an intelligent man.

He didn't want to ask himself that question. A second grader could punch holes into that. Well, but Mr. Hawking, you know, if there's nothing, where did gravity come from? And so this, I don't take that kind of argument seriously. I have a lot of respect for Professor Hawking, but he just didn't want the answer that the evidence was pointing to, which is the universe was not created by itself. Come on. The universe was created by an intelligent designer.

Come on. When I was a kid, go ahead. I was just going to say, we kind of see the same thing with Crick and Watson. They discovered DNA, which to me is the most amazing thing. I think you were there, was it at Cornell, where you said you studied under Carl Sagan and, you know, he and another guy who set up SETI, like the Search Wrextor Terrestrial Intelligence. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And yet, you know, they're listening for some kind of a pattern or something. And yet within us, we have the DNA, which is this incredible code that is there. And when they find that, they look elsewhere. They say, well, we're not going to draw the logical conclusion from that. We're going to come up with panspermia or something. It truly is amazing. I think you said it at a moment to go perfect.

David, and that is what scientists are coming around to saying, but they're not following through on it. That's where the dishonest it comes in. What most scientists are now admitting is that whether you're talking or whether you're trying to explain the beginning of the universe or the beginning of life on earth, you know, some kind of blank slate, whether there's nothing and then there's something, you have to have one thing, apart from, anything else, you need one thing. It's called information. The DNA is the information.

Where did that come from? Where did that information come from? With the universe, Professor Hawking was trying to say to us, well, where there is nothing, but there's gravity, almost like, where there's gravity, which is the information.

In other words, he wasn't facing up to the fact that you need information at the beginning. Somehow, information, if there's nothing. Somehow information has to come from somewhere, but if it's nothing, it can't come from within, it has to come from some external source.

Information has to enter that closed system and disrupt that nothingness and allow that nothing to become pregnant with something that becomes everything. But where, so all the questions we're discussing, whether it's the beginning of the universe, or whether it's beginning of the life, it all comes down to that. This is the question you have to answer, Mr. Atheist.

Where did the information come from at T equals zero when there was nothing? Absolutely nothing. Not some shenanigan, nothing, everything. I mean absolutely nothing. Where did that information come from? And they won't face up to that. They will not. I've spoken to atheists.

spoken to college kids all over the world. They won't face up to that. They just won't. They don't want the answer. They don't want the answer that is obvious. Yeah, it truly is amazing. And, you know, I didn't see this conflict from when I was younger. I didn't see the conflict between science and faith that so many people today see. Because I would go back, you know, looking at the early scientists, people like Isaac Newton,

and so many others, even, you know, more recent scientists, would look at the fact that they could understand the universe because it was created by an intelligence. It was created with a purpose. So I can try to discover the purpose, the organizing, the rules that God had an intelligence has created and set this together with. That was really kind of the basis of where many of these giants of early science were really coming from. Yeah. The universe is intelligible because it was created by an intelligible being. That's right.

The creation, the being himself is not fully intelligible, but his act of creation is intelligible. He imbued it with reason. And you have people even like Carl Sagan, who are oftentimes quoted by atheists. Well, Carl said more than once, and he's on record. You can Google it. He is not an atheist. And he said very plainly, science does not defend atheism. The science is incompatible with atheists.

because atheism makes an assertion that is scientifically unprovable. It makes an assertion that there is absolutely no evidence and there will never be any evidence for the existence of God. That's not trying to prove a negative. It's you're trying to, you're trying to disprove a hypothesis without any support for it. And so agnosticism, yeah, that's a reasonable place to be. If you can't bring yourself to believing in God, if you're not able to bring yourself to believing in Jesus,

for whatever reason, then yeah, agnosticism is a reasonable position to take. I honestly can't defend it because I just don't, because I've just seen the evidence, the overwhelming evidence for the existence of God. Einstein, the same thing. Einstein is on record as saying, I am not an atheist.

And furthermore, he went on to say, which is apropos of which you just said, David, is that the fact the universe is intelligible is itself a miracle. It's an indication that it was, it was not, it didn't happen by accident. Accidents are not intelligible. When two cars come together in a head-on collision, the result of it is chaos. It's just unintelligible. It's an unintelligible mess. the universe is far from being an unintelligible mess.

And so for me, as I was studying the universe, I was an atheist right up until I would say the middle of my grad school. Then I started asking questions and I embarked on this scientific religious journey. I started with Hinduism. Then I got into Chinese mysticism and transcendental meditation and Islam and Judaism and so forth. and it wasn't until I was really in my 40s that I stepped back and I thought, you know what, if I want to be this intellectually honest person that I see myself being, that I want to be, then I've got to just drop to my knees and admit that if I look at the evidence that science has presented to me with an open mind, not edit it down and say,

well, God's not, if I just look at all the evidence, that I have learned as a physicist and an astronomer and a mathematician with an open mind. I mean, it's a no-brainer. It's like this giant pointer finger pointing to the existence of God. And that's why I'm so settled or I'm so at peace with what I believe. There's no, there's no tension between me as a scientist and me as a Christian. Zero. I've written a book called Amazing Truths, It's how science in the Bible agree. I can tell you what I believe in detail, David. We don't have time in this company,

but I could tell you, write down, go down the list and say, what do you believe, Dr. G, and why do you believe it? Can you defend it? Is there any evidence? You know, when I was a kid, I thought that science was evidence-based and religion was faith-based. So I looked my nose down on religion. Science is evidence-based.

Religion? faith base. That's for weaklings. That's for people who don't value evidence. Well, if you can't figure it out, what you think is the great sky god that did it, right? You just attributed it to that. That's the way it's typically portrayed in the movies, right? Yeah, exactly. So as somebody who really can't figure it out. Yeah, well, what I've discovered, David, is now this stage of my life and very retrospective, very introspective as well. And I realize it's both science, and religion are both evidence-based and faith-based. It takes evidence and faith to believe in science,

and it takes evidence and faith to believe in God. Now, there are some people who say, well, I don't need any evidence. Well, at the very least, you're using the Bible as evidence, right? Yeah. I think that it would be hard for me to take anyone serious who lives in a vacuum and says, well, I just believe. Because even Romans says, you know,

when you look at the sky, the sky absolves you of any excuse for not believing in God, right? When you look up at the stars and, you know, behold what's been created, you know, they speak of God's existence. And so whether you're some native, some native somewhere in the Congo, you may not have a Bible, but you look up at the sky and the heavens declare the glory of the Lord. That's right. But somebody who's brought up in a vacuum, I don't think they're just going to spontaneously. believe in God, maybe they will. But I think both my Christianity, my Christian worldview is solidly based on evidence and on faith.

And my scientific worldview, which is entirely compatible with the Christian worldview, is also based on evidence, but it's also based on faith. I have to have faith in the scientific method, at the very least, in order to give value to what the scientific method produces as evidence. Absolutely. Yeah, as you point out. I hope that makes sense. I'm trying to summarize complicated ideas in just a few minutes. But I hope that makes sense. It's been a tremendous transformation. As the Bible says, it's my journey. Yeah, and it's such a great movie. I love the documentary, especially some of the things we haven't gotten into, like quantum physics, which is just so head twisting, crazy. We look up and we see the stars. And as you quoted from the Bible, you know, of heavens declare the glory of God. And, you know, night after night, day after night, day day they speak without a sound, right? So they're speaking to us in a sense. But let me ask you this. I think we have all these different religions because so many people understand that there's a

creator behind all of these different things. What was it that you said you explored all these different religions? What was it that got you to fixate on Christianity? I'll never forget. This co-ed at Cornell who challenged me to read the Bible, who I ended up marrying, were now been married for 34 years. is Laurel and God bless her and God used her to kind of rain me in. And I remember reading the Old Testament. It didn't really impress me too much because like all other religions, it came across to me as very logical.

You know, an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. You hurt me. I hurt you. That's karma. So nearly every major Eastern religion and the Old Testament has this kind of fundamental logic to it. You know, love your, love your friends, hate your enemies, that kind of a thing.

But when I got, when we got to the New Testament, it was a very different thing when I started reading what Jesus was saying. This character, Jesus was unlike any other sacred figure ever, very different from Buddha, very different from Confucius. All of these other sacred figures, again, spoke in very logical terms. Jesus didn't. he said, hey, if you're first, you're going to be last.

If you're going to be, if you're last, you're going to be first. If you want to live, you have to die. You should love your enemies, not just your friends and so forth. And someone was like, this doesn't make sense. Jesus is turning logic on its head. And the reason that struck me, David, is because it was at a time, it was about the second year of my grad studies at Cornell when I was knee-deep in quantum mechanics. And quantum mechanics, as you can tell from watching the movie, is equally illogical.

I call it translogical. So I made this immediate connection between the words coming out of Jesus's mouth, which were translogical, and the words coming out of my classroom in quantum mechanics, which was also translogical. And that was enough to kind of get my attention. I didn't immediately convert to Christianity. As I said, I'm very hard-headed. I'm an intellectual. It wasn't another 20 years before I finally had that day of reckoning that I described to you a moment to go.

And I said, you know, if I compare all the religions that I have immersed myself in, I have to say that the Christian worldview, the Christian worldview, is head and shoulders the most consistent with what science is revealed about creation. that what the Bible reveals about creation and what science reveals about the creation are like that. I agree. And the truths spoken by Jesus are similar in nature to the truths that quantum mechanics has revealed

about the essence, the DNA of the universe. I don't know how else to put it. It's just an amazing confluence. So when I hear people saying, well how can you be a scientist and a Christian they conflict I'm like oh my gosh I don't even know where to begin to set you straight it was a long journey for you right it was a long and not only are they compatible David they are synergistic yes they live one another what I've learned in science about God's creation informs and uplifts what I read about creation in the Bible and about

this beautiful God this beautiful loving brilliant God it's just I'm in every ecstasy right now. I have never been happier, never been more assured of what I believe and why I believe. I'm not afraid of death. There's a part of me that God forgive me. I mean, I'm just looking forward to stepping to the other side because I'm promised by the Bible, then that's when my eyes are going to be open. For a scientist, that's, that's like a Chinese fay. That's like a being promised a feast, right? An intellectual feast that I get to, I get to figure out what is dark matter? What's dark energy? What is all this stuff that we're just barely glimpsing at scientifically? That's right. Yeah, my son who's recording this says sometimes the hope is what sparks the

reason. Sometimes reason sparks the hope. And I think that is very true. That's excellent. I agree with that. You know, I can't remember who it was that I saw say this, but he said, you know, I'd studied all these different religions and he said they all had a very high regard for Jesus. And it was kind of like the thing that CSU has said, you know, he's either a lot, liar, lunatic, or Lord. And so he said, if they're all saying Jesus is this great guy, and he said, and yet Jesus said, I am the way. So maybe I just go straight to the source. That was his answer for that. But there's a lot of ways to get there. Sure, go ahead. Amen, David. But I want to comment on what Lance just said, because I do think that's,

that is profound what he just said. Because I, you know, there is a passage in the Bible. I don't know word by word, but it basically says, look, be prepared to explain the source of your hope in life. You know the verse I'm talking about, right? It's just be, the verse admonishes each of us. It says, be prepared to explain the source of your hope. Or words to that effect. So when people say to me, well, I just believe because I just believe, they have a kind of a blind faith, I say, well, you know, God bless you for that. But what if somebody comes up to you and asks you this question?

what is the source of your belief? What's the source of your hope? And all you can say to them is, well, I believe just because I believe. That's not going to help anybody. That's right. I think that as a scientist and as a Christian, when people ask me, what's the source of your hope, Dr. G? I've written books in answer to that question. That's why I get messages from people all over the world.

Latest count, 57 countries and all 50 states, people following me. because I'm able, I'm in a position to be faithful to that biblical verse that asks me to explain the source of my hope. And so I just, I'm saying that because if people who are listening, there might be some, they say, you know, I don't need to, I don't need to watch the movie. I don't need to know about all this stuff Dr. G's talking to me about the, you know, the universe and all that. I believe because I believe. Again, God bless you. I really envy you in some way. But just, but think not just about yourself.

Think about somebody who you can help open their eyes. Exactly. And you're not going to open their eyes by you just saying, well, you know, I know, good luck. Finding that out for yourself because I know because I just know. That doesn't help anybody. And so one of the reasons I made the movie was to give people information that will help explain the source of their hope. and help somebody else understand the source of your hope as a Christian. That's what my movie ultimately is all about.

It's the story of how science shattered my atheism, open my eyes to the existence of God. It's my testimony in an 80-minute movie. Yes. And when I'm dead and gone, it's going to remain my testimony. It's going to be my answer to the question the Bible says I should answer. Explain, be prepared to explain the source of your hope. That movie, the invisible,

everywhere is the explanation for my hope. It's the explanation for why I have come to believe in Jesus Christ and make him my Lord and Savior. It is the reason why I have come to understand that, yes, the heavens declare the glory of the Lord loud and clear from the tiniest things to the biggest things. It's beautiful, David. It's just beautiful. And I just want to share that with others. Yes, yes. And as a matter of fact, when Lance put that down, I didn't read the verse, but always be ready to give an answer to people for the hope that is within you. And that is exactly what your documentary does. And it's an excellent testimony that you have there.

And we didn't even get into all the oddities of quantum physics, which still just is mind-blowing to me when I look at it. Or what you talked about in terms of the brain, the mind, and what is consciousness. This is something that the transhumanists and the people like Great Kurzweil are looking at the singularity. they're constantly, and I've come across this with a lot of the transhumanists that I've talked to, who and people are working on artificial intelligence in the early days, they would think that if they came up with something that was a physical recreation of the human brain somehow,

but it was artificial, that somehow it would come to life, it would be conscious. And I thought, you know, that is just, when we start talking about artificial intelligence and consciousness comes in, it's another one of those things, as you point out in your documentary, that people really don't have a good answer for. And it is at the heart of a lot of this, what is going around right now with artificial intelligence. And of course, we were talking about atheists, Richard Dawkins got pulled into this AI psychosis.

A couple of weeks ago, I don't know if you saw that or not, but he says, I'm having a hard time convincing myself. I'm working with AI right now, and I'm trying to convince myself that this is not conscious, and I'm losing, or something to that effect. I'm paraphrasing it, but he really got right to cost a cold for that because he doesn't want to believe in God, but he'll believe in the artificial intelligence being conscious. Oh, yeah, and you know, have people like Dan Brown, you know, the Da Vinci Code and all this, who claims that a computer program can become so complicated that it will become God. It's this concept of emergence, you know, that from complexity, certain properties will emerge, like soulfulness or consciousness.

Well, there's no evidence for that yet. It's wishful thinking. It's also just a philosophy that is not supported by the evidence. I talk about that in the movie. You're right. I also talk about the question, and are we alone? Are we just another animal? Or is there something special about us?

And is there life after death? I talk about all these big questions because these are the big questions that have always preoccupied me, David. They, ever since I was that kid in second grade. And they should preoccupy everybody. I always asked questions. Everybody. I mean, unless your brain did, I guess.

Those are the questions, though, of life, really, that give it meaning, they give it perspective. And you've been asking, like you said, you're precocious. So you've been asking yourself that question for a very long time. But again, the documentary is the invisible everywhere. And it is an amazing movie. Everybody needs to see it again so that you can help other people to find what you've come to understand. And I think whenever we do that, it also strengthens our feelings. faith as well because it makes everything come together in a different perspective, I think, for us.

You know, we'll do that because we're a parent and we want to talk to our kids about that, or maybe we've got family members that we want to talk to about that. But we all have a situation where there should be somebody that we care enough about that we want to show them the truth of life, which always points to God. I think that's the key thing that you're talking about here. And I think your documentary is an excellent starting point, especially because it gets right into where science is right now and these amazing mysteries that are there. We could call them contradictions, but they seem to be contradictions, but it's because we don't really understand

them. That's what we always say when somebody will look at the Bible and say, well, that appears to be a contradiction in terms of how God is perceived when I read that, and yet we look at it and we say, no, that really better described as a mystery simply because you don't understand it. That's why it appears to be a contradiction. Now, your website, what was the website where I found? I got a written down here somewhere. Yeah, you can go, thank, and thank you, David. You can go to The Invisible Everywhere.com, The Invisible Everywhere.com.

Or you can just go to Michael Gillen.com. It'll take you to the box office. And yeah, you know, I have a Genzi son. Laurel and I have a Genzy son. I've tried always not to preach to him. So when I was making this movie, I wanted to be certain that this is not a sermon in the can. This is not a sermon in a can. There's no preachingness.

It's just me telling you my journey. And so what I'm hearing from people all over the world is it's the perfect movie you can sit down with your child. I would say 12 plus, 12, 13 plus. Just sit down with your child and just say, hey, there's this fascinating movie about science. And it is. Stephen Meyer, the endorsement he gave, very enthusiastic endorsement, called it. I think he said something like brilliantly highlights or brilliantly presents modern physics or something like that. And Dr. Rice Brooks, who wrote God's Not Dead has also endorsed it.

Hugh Ross and his wife Kathy Ross over at Reasons to Believe have endorsed it. It's a movie that you can sit down and know that it's not going to preach to you. I don't believe in preaching. I just believe in speaking truth with love. And that's all this movie is. It's stunning visuals, as you can see. The music is beautiful. People comment on the music and how beautiful it is.

It's just uplifting. And it will leave you wondering. It will leave you with your mind spinning. But it's not preachy and it's not a sermon. So you can watch it with your loved ones without fear of being accused of, ah, my, I didn't want to hear a sermon. No, it's fascinating stuff. It is fascinating because we're hearing all the time about quantum mechanics and things like that.

And we're going to be hearing more about it because the quantum computing. And that's one of the things that really is strange to me how something that is so unpredictable can be used in something that is so deterministic as a computer. That is an inherent contradiction to me. I mean, I can understand ones and zeros and I can understand on or off of that type of binary state. But when we start talking about quantum physics, it's like, well, how do you even turn that into something that can render an answer? So again, I was very curious to see that. And so there's all these different things in there. And by the way, David, if I can I'm sorry, just to say that all the questions that the movie asks and answers, like you said,

you know, where did the universe come from? How did life begin? What is human consciousness? Are we just another animal? Are we alone? Is there life after death? Et cetera. Where is the mind located?

What's the difference between the brain and the mind? All those questions, I believe God wired us to be curious. God wired us to ask these questions because he knew that if we diligently pursue answers, honestly, diligently with an open mind, the answers will lead us to him. And that's what I hope this movie does by asking these questions and explaining to the viewer what modern science has to say, not in my opinion, not dog, it's just what is modern science discovering about the answers to these deep questions? In the end, you'll see it points so clearly to God, the creator.

I'm just so proud of the movie, but to God alone be the glory, it's a movie that was funded by prayer. I'm just pleased to talk to you about it, and I just really want to thank you for the time you've given me to share my story with you, Dave. Well, I want to thank you for the movie, and what you were saying there is absolutely true. We have that promise from God, seek, and you will find. Knock and it'll be open, asking it'll be given. Thank you so much for joining us, sir. And again, as people can see, your website there is underneath your name on the video. Go there and you'll find the links to where you can find the documentary.

It's an excellent resource. It's an excellent movie, excellent documentary production values or top-notch. Thank you so much for what you did. I appreciate it. Thank you, David. God bless you and your audience. Thank you. God bless you.

The common man. They created common core to dumb down our children. They created common past to track and control us. Their commons project to make sure the commoners own nothing. and the communist future. They see the common man is simple, unsophisticated, ordinary. But each of us has worth and dignity created in the image of God. That is what we have in common.

That is what they want to take away. Their most powerful weapons are isolation, deception, intimidation. They desire to know everything about us while they hide everything from us. It's time to turn that around and expose what they want to hire. Please share the information and links you'll find at the Davidnightshow.com. Thank you for listening. Thank you for sharing. If you can't support us financially, please keep us in your prayers. The Davidnightshow.com.