The David Pakman Show - 10/14/24: Lichtman calls it for Kamala, Trump town hall goes sour (CLASSIC EPISODE FROM 9/5/24)

Episode Date: October 14, 2024

COLUMBUS DAY / INDIGENOUS PEOPLES' DAY / CLASSIC EPISODE FROM SEPTEMBER 5, 2024 -- On the Show: -- Doctor Steven Hassan, world-renowned cult expert and author of "The Cult of Trump: A Leading Cult Expert Explains How the President Uses Mind Control," joins David to discuss his understanding of the MAGA movement through a cult lens. Get the book: https://amzn.to/4dTBM4q -- Allan Lichtman, top longtime election predictor, predicts that Kamala Harris will defeat Donald Trump in the November presidential election -- A new poll finds that Kamala Harris leads Donald Trump among Latino voters by 27 points, but this is actually a smaller lead than that which previous Democrats have held over Republicans -- A number of pro-Trump influencers, including Dave Rubin, Tim Pool, Benny Johnson, and Lauren Chen, have been named in an indictment related to Russian influence campaigns --Despite Donald Trump calling New York City a crime-ridden hellscape, and despite New York University being a "woke" institution, Barron Trump will be attending NYU in New York City -- Donald Trump appears to forget who he is running against in a disastrous Fox News town hall hosted by Sean Hannity -- Kamala Harris announces a major tax proposal and Donald Trump absolutely loses it -- Voicemail caller asks how to get the free goodies with David's forthcoming book, The Echo Machine. Get the book: https://davidpakman.com/echo -- On the Bonus Show: Republican Liz Cheney says she's voting for Kamala Harris, Ken Paxton threatens to block Democrats from registering to vote, Trump media stock crashing, much more... -- Become a Member: https://www.davidpakman.com/membership -- Become a Patron: https://www.patreon.com/davidpakmanshow -- TDPS Subreddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/thedavidpakmanshow -- Pakman Discord: https://www.davidpakman.com/discord -- David on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/davidpakmanshow -- Leave a Voicemail: (219)-2DAVIDP

Hey, this is David Pakman inviting you to enjoy a classic episode of The David Pakman Show today. We will return with new shows before you know it. Welcome to the program. The day we have all been waiting for. Well, no, not really. But it has been a curious state waiting to see what election predictor Alan Lichtman will say about Kamala Harris versus Donald Trump. Alan Lichtman, who was

recently a guest on this program, has correctly predicted the outcome of presidential races for a very, very, very long time. He has issued his prediction in Harris versus Trump, and he says that indeed Kamala Harris will win the presidential election in November and become the next president of the United States. There's a very interesting feature in The New York Times, which we have up on the screen right now. It includes a video. It includes writing. It includes various audio visual elements. But the key takeaway, the critical detail is that it is Kamala Harris who will win. Now we can put up the 13 keys that Lichtman has qualitatively analyzed and by an eight to four margin with one left blank with no clear advantage, eight to four. The advantage is for Kamala Harris.

The midterm gains key, the incumbent seeking reelection key, the no foreign military failure key, the charismatic incumbent keys are in favor of Donald Trump. On the other hand, the no primary contest key, the no third party key, the strong short term economy key, the strong long term economy key, the major policy change key, the no social unrest key, the no scandal key and the uncharismatic challenger key all are in favor of Kamala Harris. Now, I have two reactions to this. And of course, none of this is a substitute for we go and we vote because we don't know what's going to happen. And whatever Alan Keyes says doesn't substitute every single one of us recognizing that we've got to get out there and we've got to vote. A bunch of these keys are certainly debatable. Now, Alan Lichtman will say, no, they are not. These the answers on these are very, very clear. But those who are saying,

hey, you know what? Before we get too far ahead of our skis, we should consider that some of these keys are not completely clear. For example, key number nine, the no scandal key being a benefit for Harris. Many right wingers argue that the fact that Biden failed the June 27th debate and had to drop out is in and of itself a scandal and that therefore the key is just miscalculated. Or there are Republicans who will say the record, whatever border thing, criminal Biden, they will say that is a scandal. And even if Alan Lichtman doesn't want to acknowledge it, the scandal key should actually

favor Trump, which would make it seven to five rather than eight to four. The no primary contest key favoring Kamala Harris. There are Republicans who will say this is not that scenario. This is not Harris's president. And no one challenged her. And therefore she had no primary contest. They will say this is an unprecedented scenario in which Kamala Harris wasn't even a candidate in the primary.

Sure, she was the VP, but there was really no primary for Biden. But Harris has no place being there and it's a coup and it's undemocratic. Therefore, at minimum, the no primary contest key should be blank, should be blank. Therefore, that pushes it to six to five. So the key here is Alan Lichtman very clearly said on this program some weeks ago and he continues to insist the answers to the keys are clear. The model accounts for unprecedented scenarios. You don't throw out the model because we've never had a scenario like this convicted former president running again. And then the president has decided to step aside

and the vice president is now that. No, no, no, no, no. Alan Lichtman would say if the model doesn't work in that scenario, it's not a good model. There is a reasonable argument to be made that the unprecedented nature of this scenario and the question marks around some of these keys make the prediction a more complicated one. I will leave you to decide. But at minimum, at this point in time, a guy with a very good record at predicting outcomes is predicting that indeed Kamala Harris is going to be the next president. I want to hear from you. What do you make of the prediction? Is it just as valuable this year as in other years? Or is there something in particular this election cycle that changes your perspective? You can email info at David Pakman dot com. I have a major headline for

you that is only meaningful if you know how to interpret the data. The headline is Kamala Harris leads Trump by 27 among Latino voters. Wow. I mean, that that's awesome, right? Or is it? Well, you need to understand the history of these data. So let's start with an NBC News report. Harris Trump race is tighter among English speaking Latinos. Poll shows while she leads Trump with Latinos overall. Harris does far better with Spanish speaking

and bilingual households than with English speaking ones. This is a poll that was done of 3000 Latino voters. Fifty nine percent say they would vote Harris, whereas 32 percent say they would vote Trump. That's a 27 point advantage for Kamala Harris over Trump among Latino voters. As the article points out, if you look at English speaking Latino households versus bilingual or Spanish speaking Latino households, it is not quite so good. But here is the most important thing. This is a smaller margin. This is a smaller margin than in previous elections.

Forex and compared to Joe Biden, for example, Joe Biden in 2020 got 65 percent of the Latino vote compared to Trump's 32. In other words, when we say, wow, Kamala Harris leads by 27 among Latino voters. Well, Biden won Latino voters by 33. That six percentage point difference in the right states could make a major difference in the eventual outcome of the election. So like with many of these data points, what do we do with it? Well, we recognize there is something happening here where some groups of Latino voters, typically

Cuban, Venezuelan, but there are others as well, are leaning a little bit more away from the Democratic candidate and towards Donald Trump than we might expect and more than we've seen in historical elections. Does it change the totality of the election picture? No, it doesn't, particularly because we're also seeing a larger than normal gender gap in favor of Kamala Harris. Well, the larger gender gap where women are supporting Harris by a larger degree could counteract the smaller gap for Harris when it

comes to Latino voters. We can't do anything other than making sure that we're registered to vote, that we plan to vote and that we tell our friends the importance of voting. But if you're looking for indicators relative to 2020, there are some that look better, like the gender gap. And there are some like the 27 point lead among Latino voters smaller than Biden's victory in 2020 among that group that are more cause for concern. Now, an interesting little note, the White House recognizing that I am Latino, has invited me to an event in D.C. for Hispanic Heritage Month. And so that's in a few weeks. I'm looking forward to being there. I will report back

to you. This is an event with President Joe and Dr. Jill Biden, not a medical doctor, as I know many of the MAGA people will point out. David, you're going to D.C. and you think you're meeting with a medical doctor? It is not like a private meeting with the Bidens. It's an event probably with hundreds of people at the White House. But it should be very interesting. Curious to see what the dynamic will be like, given that Joe Biden is stepping aside with regard to the election. So I'll tell you when it's coming up.

And of course, I will fill you in on what happens there. But very, very interesting to see. Let's take a very quick break. An incredible story involving Dave Rubin, Tim Pool, Russia, Tenet Media and an indictment. This is an incredible story. We'll talk about it right after this short break. Looking for a way to enjoy some calm? Check out our longtime sponsor, Ounce of Hope, offering top shelf psychoactive THC products with an earnest commitment to giving back.

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Use the code Pacman for 20 percent off. That's ounce spelled out of hope dot com. Use code Pacman for 20 percent off. The info is in the podcast notes. The David Pakman show is an independent media program, and that is of particular meaning, given the story we're about to talk about regarding Russian influence and Russian money in American supposedly independent media productions. You can directly support the work we do. We don't have to worry about whether is the four hundred thousand dollars a month that's coming in from some rich guy actually laundered money from Russia the way Benny Johnson now has to worry about. I'll explain in a moment because we're funded by small dollar donations by folks

like you. We have a membership program. You can sign up at join Pacman dot com. We do offer a number of perks and goodies for those who sign up. And you can use the coupon code Save Democracy 24 for a sizable discount off of the cost of a membership. All right, let's get into it. Absolute bombshell shaking the independent media world. DOJ bombshell alleges MAGA media group is backed by Russian money. There is a fantastic Twitter thread by Pekka Kalyani from Votnik Soup and the Soup Central, who follows and is an expert on exactly these types of influence campaigns. So let me explain to you what's going on. And I'm not exaggerating when I say that this is shaking the independent media world. Russia has been funding a Tennessee based media company called Tenet.

Tenet Media is most known for promoting pro Putin, anti Ukraine, anti Democratic West narratives and for supporting Donald Trump. Now, the money that's in at play here, and I'm going to tell you who has been receiving the money, the money that's at play here originated with Russian state TV channel RT. It was funneled through various shell companies in countries like Turkey and the United Arab Emirates and others, in some cases masked as payments for electronics. And two individuals involved from RT, Konstantin Kalashnikov and Elena Afanasieva, have been charged. There's an indictment to with conspiracy to commit money laundering and conspiracy to violate the Foreign Agents Registration Act. These two also instructed

the content creators that were being funded by this entire project. Now, the reason we're learning about all of this is because of the indictment. The details in the indictment are stunning and I encourage you to look at it now. Interestingly, Tenet was founded in twenty twenty two by Lauren Chen and Liam Donovan. Now, you might remember the name Lauren Chen. I've met Lauren Chen. I was on a panel with her at Politicon years ago. And there there is something in particular about Lauren Chen's content relative to her name recognition. That is a common thread with a lot of these sort of astroturfed content creators, which I will get to in a moment. So then we have the list of media people that are involved with Tenet Media, and the list

includes Tim Pool, who's been a guest on this program. Benny Johnson, with whom I appeared on the Piers Morgan program recently. Dave Rubin, who he has been on this show before and I've been on his show a decade ago before he had this very strange political awakening where he changed all his political views and Lauren Southern. So Tim Pool, Benny Johnson, Dave Rubin, Lauren Southern, probably the biggest names that are involved here. Now, it's really interesting to go back and reconsider some of the content that these creators have been putting out in light of these revelations about the funding. Tim Pool, for example, went all in in his videos with claims like Ukraine is the enemy

of this country and suggesting we should apologize to Russia. They know it, but I don't know that it matters anymore. This is psychotic. Ukraine is the enemy of this country. Ukraine is our enemy being funded by the Democrats. I will stress again, one of the greatest enemies of our nation right now is Ukraine. They are expanding this war. Now, don't get me wrong. I know you've got criminal elements of the U.S. government pushing them and guiding them and telling them what to do. Ukraine is now accused, a German warrant issued for blowing up the Nord Stream pipeline in triggering this conflict. Ukraine is the greatest threat to this nation and to the world. We should rescind all funding and financing, pull out all military support, and we should

apologize to Russia. Now, he seems to be reading something in this video. If he's reading a script and who wrote the script, I mean, we just don't know. But obviously everything is suspect now, given these revelations also on on Twitter or X, as it's now called, Tim has been very vocal about this issue, tweeting at one point, I now hate and despise Ukraine, tweeting at another point. Trump got impeached for freezing military aid to Ukraine. Biden faces no consequences for freezing military aid to Israel.

This proves the Ukrainians run the U.S. Now, when someone asks, who is they, though, you respond, the Ukrainians. Tim Pool posting the people screaming about Trump working for Russia are the same people demanding social media censor misinformation. Stop listening to these people. So a lot of stuff here that now is very suspect involving Tim Pool. Then we go to Benny Johnson. Benny Johnson's main talking points have often focused around. He just doesn't want aid going to Ukraine. And Democrats are causing so many problems domestically. Why would we send any money to Ukraine? You then have Lauren Southern and the Russian connection there is much more plain to see. She's actually visited Moscow and she met with Alexander Dugin, who's this guy who provided the

blueprint for Russian expansion and imperialism in his 1997 book, Foundation of Geopolitics. We've talked about that. And then, of course, you also have Dave Rubin, Dave Rubin, who has increasingly pushed this pro Trump sort of skeptical of the West kind of narrative. Now, a lot of these guys, people are kind of panicking. And so they've put out statements that are all very similar in structure. Dave Rubin is essentially claiming he's just a victim here. He put out a statement where he says statement on the DOJ indictment. These allegations clearly show that I and other commentators were the victims of this scheme. I knew absolutely nothing about

any of this fraudulent activity, period. People of the Internet was a silly show covering viral videos, which ended four months ago. The DOJ has never contacted me regarding this matter. I have no intention to comment further. The screenshot from the indictment speaks for itself. So he's basically saying I was a victim here. I was victimized. Benny Johnson also referred to himself as a victim, saying, quote, A year ago, a media startup pitched my company to provide content as an independent contractor. Our lawyers negotiated a standard arm arm's length deal, which was later terminated. We are disturbed by the allegations in today's indictment, which make clear that myself and other influencers were victims in this alleged scheme. My lawyers will handle anyone who states or suggests otherwise, I guess, threatening

lawsuits. So let's talk a little bit about this. To be perfectly clear, I believe completely that no one was telling these individuals necessarily what they have to say. But it's sort of like the RT thing. I don't know if you guys remember when RT was on the air and we would often hear from RT hosts and whatnot, and they would say, I have total freedom to say whatever I want. RT never comes in and says, here's what you have to say about Putin or anything else. What's really critical to understand is that Russian intelligence prefers if you don't

know that you're doing their bidding, what they want to do is amplify voices that are already predisposed to say what's useful to them. And so when it came to the on air talent at RT, for example, they don't need to hire people and then go, listen, here's how you have to cover stories. They would say, hey, here's someone whose skepticism of American institutions is really useful to our goal of destabilizing American democracy. Let's hire them. Let's give them a bunch of money. We don't have to tell them what to say. So the strategy here is you amplify voices that are predisposed to say what you want, and then you give them the money to do as much as

possible with a larger reach. The report is that as far as Benny Johnson goes, it was a deal for four hundred thousand dollars a month, plus some kind of six figure signing bonus. These are early reports. It was very obvious in some of these cases, in some of these cases that the storylines just didn't really seem to match the natural development of one's kind of political views. And I want to be careful about what I say so that I don't necessarily anger any particular person. But when you look at the trajectories of some of these individuals and you see the rapid, in some cases, subscriber growth that took place without necessarily a lot

of views, sort of a disproportionate amount of public notoriety that didn't seem matched by the actual interest in the content, because a lot of people aren't necessarily interested in what these individuals are saying. You start to wonder, is there some artificial mechanism that is signal boosting the content? I think that's where we leave it for now. What I can tell you is that we don't get any money from anybody like this. We're on YouTube and we make money from the YouTube ad program. We have no contact with any of the advertisers. Individual people pay two, three, four or five bucks a month or 60 or 70 dollars for

the year. Any one of them can cancel at any time. None of them direct content on the program. I mean, the point I'm trying to make here is not all independent media is created equal. And sometimes apparently independent media can actually be wrapped up with some pretty ugly stuff. Let's leave it there. This is such a funny story. I don't want to spend a ton of time on it because at the end of the day, Barron Trump is not at this point a political figure. But there is a real irony in the news that Baron Trump is moving to New York City and

has started school at New York University, one of the leading, quote, woke universities in the country, if not the world. This is really funny. Page six has a report. Baron Trump, 18 years old, flanked by security as he arrives at NYU for his first day of college classes. Donald Trump recently announcing Barron is going to New York University. He was accepted to a lot of colleges.

He's a very smart guy and he'll be going to Stern Business School, which is a great school at NYU. What clinched the decision? Just it's a very high quality place. He he liked it. He liked the school. We like NYU. I've known NYU for a long time.

Right. There is definitely a healthy dose of irony here going to a known liberal left wing university in a city that Donald Trump has been saying is a crime riddled hellscape from which he escaped to Florida. But Baron Trump is moving to New York City to go to woke institution and why you why can't they put their money where their mouths are? There are conservative colleges he could go to. What about Liberty University? What about, I don't know, Hillsdale College or Texas A&M, BYU, although Mormon and Trump's

not Mormon, BYU with a very socially conservative on campus sort of series of policies or whatever the case may be. No, when it comes to, hey, where can I actually get the best education? It's going to the supposedly crime riddled hellscape dystopia of New York City and the woke left wing university NYU. These people are pathetic at the end of the day. And just a funny thing to see that this is where he's chosen to go. Are you having trouble sleeping or staying asleep? Sleep is one of the most important foundations of mental and physical health. And our sponsor beams formulation called Dream is a delicious nighttime hot cocoa drink with melatonin, clinically proven to help you fall asleep faster and stay asleep longer. Melatonin can also help

correct circadian rhythm disturbances, get your sleep schedule back on track, for example, in jet lag situations. Dream comes in great tasting flavors like mint chocolate chip, chocolate, peanut butter, sea salt, caramel. I love the cinnamon cocoa version. No sugar added, sweetened with monk fruit, just 15 calories per serving. Dream hot cocoa is it's just a nice way to wind down before bed. It's hot and flavorful. It's not overly sweet. It's a soothing way to The David Pakman Show David Pakman dot com. It's great to welcome back to the program today, Dr. Stephen Hassan, world renowned cult expert and author of The Cult of Trump. A leading cult expert explains how the president uses mind control. Now the former president and also, by the way, now with a new forward by George Conway.

It's great to have you on again. You know, we've been kind of talking to and about Trump supporters who we interview at rallies sometimes and other places. And there's this intuitive feeling I have having read about a number of different cult leaders that there's some similar mechanisms that are happening here. But as a non expert on cults, it's hard for me to kind of qualify them. Talk to us a little bit about what you see that would qualify at least some followers of the former presidents as sort of being in a cult type scenario. Oh, thanks, David, for having me back. I love your show. So part of the thesis of the cult of Trump is, first of all, that Trump has

the stereotypical profile of a cult leader, which is what Eric Fromm called malignant narcissism, something George Conway has been promoting in terms of his anti-psychopath pack and everything to try to say, look, this is a dangerous psychopathic person. We don't want him anywhere near power. So that's part of the cult of Trump. But to answer your question, what I realized was that there are actual authoritarian cults in the cult of Trump. And we're talking about tens of millions of people in groups like the New Apostolic Reformation churches and megachurches. And the media has missed the mark by calling them Christian evangelicals, in my opinion, because I have friends who are Christian evangelicals who

follow Jesus and the Bible. And what's different about these groups is they're self-proclaimed prophets or apostles who say, I speak to God, and God told me Trump won the 2020 election. And they use phobia programming, my bite model of authoritarian control, behavior, information, thought, and emotional control to create a pseudo-identity that's dependent and obedient on them. And it's because the leaders are saying, we have to do what God wants, which is elect Trump. They're following their prophet more than they're following Trump. Not to say that there aren't people who were infatuated by Donald Trump, too,

because chapter 7 and 8 have many different cults within the cult of Trump. But the point is, is that when you're in a mindset where you're unable to consider the possibility you might be in error, or that there may be information that you're missing, if you're so certain, and you know, that's the danger points that I want to urge everybody to step back and go, whoa, because we're human. And it's critical that we have information and evidence to make good decisions. One of the things I've noticed or thought about is that sometimes we, you know, our correspondent Luke Beasley or someone from a right wing network will interview a Trump supporter and they will say, for example, with total confidence that Donald Trump is currently the president of the United States. Now, we've talked amongst ourselves

sort of about are that are those claims literally believed to be true by the people who say them? Or is it sort of like, for example, with Jim Jones, there were followers of Jim Jones who certainly repeated they were on message. They were saying the things, but they weren't saying it because they necessarily believed that they saw it as how you kind of prove your membership in the group, for lack of a better term. Absolutely. Is one or the other the literal belief versus the I'm saying it to show I'm part of the team? Is one or the other more common among cult followers? So this is a graphic that I have on my freedom of mind.com website. It's in the cult of Trump. And I have a more detailed one for the cult of Trump.

Actually it's black and white, but most people in any cult or what I call fringe members, they align, but they still have some sense of self and they may be saying what they want to say in order to be in the in-group, very different than the core followers who would kill on command, die on command, do whatever they're told, think that they need to do a civil war, for example. And what I've learned as a mental health professional, frankly, is to treat each person with respect as an individual and actually have engaged, respectful, curious conversations where you ask questions that encourage people to think for themselves. And what I see in the media are people going to Trump rallies, putting a microphone, being self-identified as a media person.

And the way they're asking questions is going to elicit a cultic framework. And I talk about a defense mechanism to a degree that they see this person from the media. They're coming in. I perceive them as maybe challenging me or my beliefs, and therefore I am going to recite the things I'm supposed to recite. Not consciously. So part of what I want to convey to your listeners is that brainwashing is a dissociative disorder. It's literally in the Diagnostic Statistical Manual of the American Psychiatric Association as a disruption of identity. by the Mooney Steve Hassan. It didn't get erased, but it got replaced like a computer can get hacked by malware and it takes over your operating system. The programming is still there of who I was before. And so what I want to convey is that if you attack the leader, the doctrine, or the policy head on, automatic cult defense system, alert, danger, danger, persecution. But if you ask a question with warmth about who the person was before they

met the group, what they were interested in, their hobbies, their loved ones, etc. You're going to get more of the real identity. And so what I'm trying to convey to everybody who's listening is if you have a family member, a friend, a co-worker who's got taken over by the MAGA influence, be warm, open up doors. If you block them or muted them say i've been thinking about you how are you i'd like to i want you in my life can we do a redo and then if they say well you were mean to me or you called me names apologize and say let's not talk politics let's just be together because we want to create an off ramp for tens of millions of Americans. We need to depolarize this extreme situation, which is largely information, psychological warfare that's being conducted on us. There are some who, even if they don't disagree that there is an aspect of cult and brainwashing that's taken place here with at least some of Trump's followers. They're concerned that when you say this is a brainwashed individual,

you're dismissing their agency as well as political motivations to a degree and saying they are merely brainwashed, if that makes sense. Well? Yes, that may be. So can you talk a little bit about about that and addressing that? Thousand percent. Remember, I'm a mental health professional who was in a cult fanatically for two and a half years, was deprogrammed. So I speak not only as someone who was there, who believed Moon was the Messiah and God was going to save us from World War III, but I've been doing this work for 50 years with people from a myriad of cults. What you don't want to do is speak down ever to anybody, even if they are the most irrational, conspiracy-laden stuff. You want to be warm, curious?

Tell me how you arrived at this. When was the first time you ever heard the name Trump? I'm curious. Oh, I saw it on The Apprentice. Oh, really? What was your first impression? Oh, I thought he was a schmuck. Oh, that's curious.

Schmuck. So tell me how you came to start respecting him. I'm very interested in your journey. Help me step into your shoes. So never treat people as objects, put them down, or use the term brainwashing in a deleterious way. And what I want people to understand, when I call it the cult of Trump or I say people are brainwashed, it's because it happened to me and I know what it's like. And I agreed to my deprogramming in 1976 after a near fatal van crash to prove to my family I wasn't in a cult and I wasn't brainwashed. That actually

motivated me to prove it. And then I learned about Chinese communist brainwashing techniques and my mind started to open up because I saw something to compare my experience with. Can you talk? Speaking of comparing, can you tell us a couple of the tactics that Trump uses that are similar to those in religious cults, but maybe also differences. Sure. So there are any differences. Well. So it's very interesting you asked me this because I'm reflecting a lot. The thing that woke me up, David, in my deprogramming after five days was the ex-members handed me a speech printed by the organization, the Moonies, of Moon speaking to congressmen and senators. They didn't give me a judgment about it. They just said, read this and tell us what you think, Steve. And when I read it, it was Moon talking to congressmen and senators saying how surprised he was that anyone could think that an American could be brainwashed by a Korean like him. And he knows no American is so foolish. He respects them. Now, I had met with Moon a hundred times,

at least as a top leader. And he always dissed Americans as stupid, idiot, lowlifes. So what I'm trying to convey is the first critical thought I had in two and a half years was he's a liar. And then when I was like, well, if he's a liar, that means he can't speak for God, because God is a God of truth. That means he's not trustworthy. And the whole house of cards fell down. So what I'm trying to convey to you in terms of how to talk with cult members is remember their real self is in there. Most people are followers with good intent, good values, and really believe they're going to help save America. So in terms of your question about what techniques are used, behavior control, information, thought, and emotional control techniques, projection of his own stuff on everyone else, misdirection, the pathological lying, saying he knows more than anybody else.

Trust me. And literally, it fits the model so well. And I people say, don't you criticize left wing cults, too? And I'm like, sure, I do. China is like one of the biggest cults on the planet right now. It's a political system, but they operate as a dictatorship. Can we go back to one of the ones you mentioned, which is information control? Because in a strict sense, anyone with a mobile phone or access to the Internet has access in a literal sense to all the same information. Therefore, it must be that there is some other way that Trump is controlling access to information.

Is it the you can't believe what you're hearing and seeing from the fake news media that's the enemy of the people? Is it turning people against other media sources or how does he do it? Oh, absolutely. So let's remember fake news, which is loaded language. And don't believe anyone who's critical of us, certainly that piece. Just remember the dual identity. So the person who's programmed is self-monitoring. One other thing that I haven't mentioned yet, and it's the universal mind control technique, is phobia indoctrination. The indoctrination of irrational fears that terrible things are going to happen to you, whether you'll be possessed by demons or the communists will take over and flay your skin

off or something, other types of irrational fears, so that in the mind of a cult member, they can't imagine ever leaving or questioning the group and being okay about it. Only negative things happen to them. So I've worked with so many people in cults who just refused to look at any negative information because they thought it was going to hurt their soul or it was going to harm their spirits. So this self-monitoring happens. One other thing I want to say is that a lot of people talk about how the people are lonely and they have a need for community and that's how they get into QAnon. Absolutely true. We're social beings. We want community for sure. But what you learn with mind control cults is that your comrades, your friends, aren't your friends if you verbalize a question or a doubt.

The minute you do that, you're the enemy. And they turn on you like rabid wolves. And we see this historically. True believers then turned on by their peers because they're starting to wake up and ask questions. So when you're in one of these groups, you know, by the way, other people are being treated that if you start allowing yourself to verbalize doubts, same thing in Russia or China, you start criticizing the regime. You're worried someone's going to turn you in. When it comes to the fear tools Trump uses, the obvious ones seem the violent immigrants from Central and South America,

the communists and Marxists, the teachers that will do this, that or the other thing to your kids. What are some of the other fear tactics he uses? So it's very important, it goes back to the phobia programming, to have an enemy. And I'd like to quote a 1954 book by Eric Hoffer called The True Believer, one of the first books I read 50 years ago, 48 years ago, when I got out. He said, the strength of a mass movement, he didn't use the word cults, he called them mass movements. The strength of a mass movement can be measured by its vividness and tangibility of its devils, right? So if you want cohesion, make a devil, make it being unsafe out there. Right. Because then you'll you'll you'll you'll hunker down and you'll follow the apex, you know, leader who's going to tell you how to stay safe. And

this goes back to our early genetic programming of survival. And so that's the way that Trump is doing it, which is I'll make it so that the violent immigrants don't get you. I will be he will protect you from all of those things. Speaker 1 That's the claim. But of course, he is the danger. And people have to understand he is not doing God's will. This is a lie. He's a tool of political, Christian nationalists, New Apostolic Reformation, neo-Nazis. Putin was at the top of Chapter 7 of Puppet Masters, clearly. And so do we want human rights? Do we want women's rights, gay rights, indigenous rights?

Do we want the right to read what we want to read or do we want book banning? Do we want to be able to talk freely about our opinions or do we need to live in an environment where we're worried someone's going to turn us in and we're going to be cast out? The contrast, very, very stark for sure. We've been speaking with Dr. Stephen Hassan. The book now with a foreword by George Conway is The Cult of Trump. A leading cult expert explains how the president uses mind control. Always great having you on. I really appreciate it. Thanks so much, David. Continued success. Donald Trump has made it clear in a truth social post that if he gets elected, he will prosecute

people in response to imaginary voter fraud using the Justice Department as his personal tool for revenge. And it's crazy how conservative news outlets are framing this story like this headline from Ben Shapiro's Daily Wire, which says Governor Burgum defends Trump against leftist outrage over his demand for fair elections. Meanwhile, when independent media outlet Mother Jones is reporting on the same story, their headline is the Trump plan to prosecute election officials and suppress the vote. So you get a totally different idea of the story depending on who's reporting it. Our sponsor, Ground News, makes it really easy to see these differences for every news

story. Ground News shows me a breakdown of how each outlet is framing the story, who owns the outlet, what their political biases. So you can make up your own mind. I can also follow ground news is dedicated 2024 presidential election page for each candidate, which is an amazing tool right now just to sort out fact from fiction on the race. And my viewers get 40 percent off the same unlimited access vantage plan that I use. When you go to ground dot news slash Pacman, dodge the manipulation and see the media landscape more transparently.

Go to ground news slash Pacman to get 40 percent off. Ground News is unlimited access vantage plan. The link is in the podcast notes. In lieu of a previously scheduled presidential debate, Donald Trump did a propaganda town hall last night with Sean Hannity, and he didn't remember who he is running against. I it just keeps happening. At what point can we say it's not a joke? Trump certainly not speaking to a single new voter that he doesn't already have in this thing. And he repeatedly forgets who he is running

against. Listen to this. I can't imagine New Hampshire voting for him. Anybody in New Hampshire because they're watching right now. But anybody in New Hampshire that votes for Biden and Kamala, I really. He glitched out. He forgot who he was running against. Again, he forgets who he's running against. He forgets who's president. He doesn't know what is going on. And if you think that moment was a concern, well, there was a deranged and disastrously diabolical moment where Trump in an authoritarian haze tells the audience, you have no choice, but you have to vote for me even if you do not like me. You can't take the chance. You have no choice.

You've got to vote for me. You've got to vote for me. Even if you don't like me. You know, it's it's no, but even if you don't like me, you can sit there. I can't stand that guy, but there's no way I'm going to vote for her. Now you. Well, you know what?

People do have choices and certainly tens of millions at minimum are planning to make a different choice. But this is a terrified, terrified Donald Trump. At another point during this gong show town hall, apparently a mosquito got into the room, really distracted. And then he started ranting about bugs. The debate. I hate mosquitoes.

I'm surprised I didn't think we had. We don't like those mosquitoes running around. We want nothing to do with them, but we want nothing to do with bad politicians that hate our country, too. Trump's train of thought completely derailed off the tracks altogether, as Trump has done before. He argued that his knowledge of nuclear programs is bolstered by the fact that his uncle was at MIT. And I don't know about you, but just because you once had an uncle who was a surgeon, I'm not letting you take a scalpel to me. And I think the same thing probably applies to upgrade our entire program. And, you know, the one

program I hated to upgrade hated it was the nuclear program. And I understand it may be better than anybody. My uncle was at MIT, a professor, the longest serving professor in the history of MIT. Very smart guy. We have a smart family. People are clapping that Trump's uncle had a job. I mean, how weird is this? The smart family. But I knew I understood nuclear for a long time. The power of nuclear weapons.

You need a president that's not going to be taking you into war. We won't have World War three when I'm elected. But right. You can trust that Trump will best handle nuclear proliferation because his uncle went to MIT, taught at MIT. Who the hell knows? And, you know, thinking back to our interview earlier in the show today with cult expert Dr. Stephen Hassan, the crowd is playing their role. They clap when they are supposed to and expected to by the cult leader, even if it makes no sense. Why would you clap when Trump says his uncle was smart? Why is that even something to clap for? The crowd recognizes it as an applause line and they do it in the latest instance of I know you

are. But what am I? Trump says Tim Walz is weird, super original, huh? Really, really original stuff. Sorry, this is the right here's the right. There's something there's something weird with that guy. He's a weird guy. Jay. How creative, huh? He is not weird. He's a solid rock. I happen to be a very solid rock. We're not weird. We're other things, perhaps, but we're not weird. Nah, we're not weird. You guys are actually the weird ones. Really convincing stuff, really motivating to voters to get out and vote for Trump, I'm sure. And then finally, after confusing himself multiple times about who he's running against in this campaign, Trump complains that Joe

Biden decided to step aside. He doesn't like he had 14 million votes and they threw him out. They said, we want you out. And he wasn't going to win, I don't think. And then I don't think he was going to win. But we did a good debate. We had a good debate and it was a fair debate. And he was down like 18 or 19 points after the debate. OK, so that's very much not true. He was not down to 18 points after the debate. I hate mosquitoes. I'm surprised I didn't think we had. So here's the mosquito portion. Like those mosquitoes running around. We want nothing to do with them.

But we want nothing to do with bad politicians that hate our country, too. You want to know that? But he had they went to him and they said, we want you out. You're not going to win. And it was really a coup when you think about it. Yeah, it kind of wasn't really a coup. But the very interesting part of this is that I do think Trump is correctly assessing one aspect of this. Much of what took place did come after an assessment from Joe Biden and the people around him that the race isn't looking good. And so Joe Biden made a decision that someone like Trump could never and would never make,

which is, you know what, instead of staying in this thing because of personal ego reasons, I'm going to do what is actually best for the party and what he believes is best for the country, which is what action can I take that reduces the chance that Trump becomes president? If they came to him and they said, sir, we're crying, you're going to lose. Well, then Biden said, let's figure out a way to make it less likely that Trump wins. And that's getting out and endorsing Kamala Harris, which is what they've done. Trump, I mean, we criticize him a lot. He is correctly assessed.

That's the reason that what that's the reason that that sort of started the chain of events that led to Kamala Harris today being the nominee. Trump recognizes it's going to be much tougher to defeat Kamala Harris than it would have been to defeat Joe Biden. And he's furious. This town hall not really doing Trump any favors, reaching mostly people who are already either in the tank for Trump or on shows like this one. No chance in hell that they're voting for Trump. I don't know that these town hall events convince anybody. Kamala Harris announced her major tax proposal yesterday at a very interesting event in Portsmouth, New Hampshire. Trump furious that Kamala Harris is announcing tax policy, as we discussed yesterday on the bonus show.

Kamala Harris with a new plan to increase tax deductions for startups to fifty thousand dollars, making it less expensive to start a business meant to spur innovation. She explains it. Trump doesn't like the fact that she is actually rolling out policies that people like. And so all of this is why, as president, one of my highest priorities will be to strengthen America's small businesses. And here I am in New Hampshire to announce a few elements of my plan to do that. Elements. So first, we're going to help more small businesses and innovators get off the ground. OK, now I'm setting.

Geez, that's not sounding like communism to me. But some I'm sure are going to call a very ambitious goal. But you know what? I think we should admire ambition in each other. So I want to see 25 million new small business applications by the end of my first term. And by the way, that is an ambitious number. It's not going to happen. But if you can even get a fraction of that, it would still be a major accomplishment to

help achieve this. We will lower the cost of starting a new business. So here's the thing. On average, it costs about forty thousand dollars to start a new business in America. That is a great financial barrier for a lot of folks and it can hold entrepreneurs back. And the current tax deduction for a startup is just five thousand dollars. OK, so then you got to make up the delta there. Got to figure out how you're going to do that. Not everyone has access to that kind of wealth. Isn't it weird that she's talking about policy rather than insulting people and using various

epithets and capital? So part of my plan is we will expand the tax deduction for starting a small business. Second, my plan will help existing small businesses grow. We will provide low and no interest loans to small businesses that want to expand. And we will. And this is very important. Cut the red tape that can make starting and growing a small business more difficult than it needs to be. This is very much not Marxism. I think that that's abundantly clear. And Trump is not liking that. Kamala Harris is scooping him on the economic policy. What does Trump have to have? Trump's got tariffs. OK, as this speech was going on, Trump posted 22 times in an hour to Truth Social.

I don't even want to waste your time with it today. We'll look at it tomorrow. But she is doing policy. And by the way, also important to mention, if you want to hear the real pro-life position, here is Kamala Harris addressing yesterday's shooting at a Georgia school. Before I begin, I do want to say a few words about this tragic shooting that took place this morning in Winder, Georgia. We're still gathering information about what happened, but we know that there were multiple fatalities and injuries. And, you know, our hearts are with all the students, the teachers, and their families, of course.

And we are grateful to the first responders and the law enforcement that were on the scene. But this is just a senseless tragedy on top of so many senseless tragedies. And it's just outrageous that every day in our country, in the United States of America, that parents have to send their children to school worried about whether or not their child will come home alive. It's senseless. We've got to stop it. And we have to end this epidemic of gun violence in our country once and for all. You know, it doesn't have to be this way. It doesn't have to be this way. So we will continue, of course, to send our prayers and our thoughts to the families and all those who were affected,

including, you know, I'm going off script right now. But listen, I mean, you know, at the last year, I started a college tour and I traveled our country meeting with our young leaders. Right. And so it was college age, young leaders. So I did trade schools, colleges, universities, community colleges. By the way, I love Gen Z. I just love Gen Z. All right.

So now getting into some other stuff. But this is the real pro-life position, right? Not let's be pro-life by controlling women's bodies and trying to inject ourselves into rooms where doctors and patients are discussing what's best for them. That's not the pro-life position. The pro-life position is, are we going to do anything about this insane and depraved epidemic of gun violence? That's really the pro-life position. So a very good speech by Kamala Harris, heavy on empathy, but also heavy on policy. Trump flying off the handle as this was going on.

We'll look at some of his reaction tomorrow. We have a voicemail number. That number is 2 one nine two. David P. Here is a caller with a very specific question about my forthcoming book, The Echo Machine. what we send in. Do we send in a screenshot of the receipt or an order number just to get all the, you know, bonus goodies in the sign book plate and all that jazz? OK, so here's the deal. I want to be you know, I was recently speaking to my friend Brian Tyler Cohen, and he warned me that there was some confusion from many of the people who preordered his book about how to get the preorder goodies. So I want to try to head that off at the pass. My book is now in preorder. The book doesn't come out until early 2025. You can preorder any version of the book,

physical book, e-book, audio book on just about any website that sells books on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Audible David Pakman dot com. you automatically. This is such a critical thing to explain to people. You we are going to announce an email address when the time comes with my publisher. If you want the free preorder goodies, you will have to email a screenshot or order number to the publisher. OK, I'm going to say it again because Brian warned me there was a lot of confusion. You will have to send an email to my publisher with a proof of purchase to request the preorder goodies. It won't happen in an automatic sense or fashion. So just keep that in mind. I will announce that email address when my publisher is all set up. But the important thing is, no matter when you preorder the book, you will qualify for those goodies. We have passed fifteen hundred pre orders. We estimate

we estimate that if we can get to five thousand pre orders by the time the book goes goes live, that we will make the New York Times nonfiction new bestseller list, which would be obviously huge since there are so many people that believe unless you have the backing, unless you're on CNN, you can't possibly make the bestseller list. Well, we are I'm not on CNN and we have a path we believe could get us to that bestseller list. So David Pakman dot com slash echo or search any place that sells books for the echo machine, David Pakman. We've got a great bonus show for you today. We are going to talk about another Republican, Liz Cheney, saying she's voting for Kamala Harris. We are going to discuss threats from Ken Paxton in Texas to block Democrats

from registering to vote. They are doing it again. And we will also talk about the latest with the Trump Media and Technology Group, which is crashing and burning really, really badly. All of those stories and more on today's bonus show. Sign up at join Pacman dot com.