The David Pakman Show - 12/14/23: Biden impeachment inquiry CONFIRMED, Trump decline noticeable at latest rally

Episode Date: December 14, 2023

-- On the Show: -- Steve Inskeep, Host of NPR's Morning Edition and author of the new book "Differ We Musts: How Lincoln Succeeded in a Divided America," joins David to discuss how partisanship and tribalism compare in the Trump era as compared to the Civil War, his viral interview with Donald Trump where Trump hung up on him, and much more. Get the book: https://amzn.to/3uWIBAp -- The House of Representatives approves an impeachment inquiry of President Joe Biden down a party-line vote -- Despite still having absolutely no proof, Republicans will try to move forward on impeaching Joe Biden -- A slurring and confused Donald Trump speaks at a rally in Iowa that failed to inspire even his most ardent, cultist supporters -- Attendees of Donald Trump's Iowa rally are interviewed, and it's difficult to assess their state as anything short of deranged -- As the stock market reaches all-time highs, Donald Trump's prediction of a record low stock market under Joe Biden collapses completely -- Hunter Biden shows up in Washington DC, defies his subpoena, and tells Republicans to let him testify publicly -- Republicans lose their minds over Hunter Biden's public comments in Washington DC -- On the Bonus Show: Supreme Court will hear case that could undo hundreds of Trump rioter charges, Supreme Court will hear abortion pill case, Fed likely done raising interest rates and could cut in 2024, much more... 🔊 Babbel: Get 55% off your subscription at https://babbel.com/pakman 🌱 Ounce of Hope: Get 20% OFF with code PAKMAN at https://www.ounceofhope.com/ ☕ Trade Coffee: Get 15% off all gift subscriptions at https://drinktrade.com/pakman 🖼️ Aura Frames: Use code PAKMAN for $30 off at https://auraframes.com/pakman 👩‍❤️‍👨 Try the Paired App FREE for 7 days and get 25% OFF at https://paired.com/pakman 💻 Stay protected! Try our sponsor Aura FREE for 2 weeks at https://aura.com/pakman 🚽 Hello TUSHY bidets: Get 25% off with code PAKMAN at https://hellotushy.com/pakman -- Become a Supporter: http://www.davidpakman.com/membership -- Subscribe on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/thedavidpakmanshow -- Subscribe to Pakman Live: https://www.youtube.com/pakmanlive -- Follow us on Twitter: http://twitter.com/davidpakmanshow -- Like us on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/davidpakmanshow -- Leave us a message at The David Pakman Show Voicemail Line (219)-2DAVIDP

. Well, my friends, it brings me no pleasure to tell you they've done it. Republicans on a party line vote in the House of Representatives have decided they are making official the impeachment inquiry of President Joe Biden. Now, thinking back to the Trump impeachment era some years ago, I do think it's important to remind everybody what the various steps are here. You have first an impeachment inquiry. Then you would have a vote on impeachment in the House. If indeed a president is impeached in the House, then the impeachment trial begins. The impeachment trial has the Senate as its jury. The case is presented by members of the House of Representatives that want to impeach

the president. They present their case. Senators vote either to convict or to acquit. As you may remember, under Donald Trump, he was impeached twice, impeached, meaning that the House voted, yes, we are impeaching him and we are going to try him in the Senate. Both of those trials ultimately leading to the acquittals of failed former President Donald Trump. So we are in thinking of where we are here already. Some folks confused, thinking Biden was impeached yesterday. He was not. This was a vote to formalize an impeachment inquiry.

And there is every reason to believe that Republicans are determined ultimately, no matter what the facts show. And so far, the facts show absolutely no criminality, no high crimes or misdemeanors. And we will get to that. But Republicans increasingly seem determined no matter what the facts show, eventually to impeach Joe Biden. Let's start with this report from The New York Times. House approves Biden impeachment inquiry as Republican Party hunts for an offense. They've not been able to quantify what is the offense. They've not been able to explain what evidence of a crime they have.

And many of you know that because we've been looking at those clips for a long time. New York Times writing Republicans are pushing forward with a formal investigation, even though their year long scrutiny of the president and his family has turned up no evidence of high crimes nor of misdemeanors. Republicans said this is their justification. Republicans said the vote was needed to give them full authority to continue carrying out their investigation amid anticipated legal challenges from the White House. Democrats have denounced the inquiry as a phishing expedition and a political stunt. We're going to deal with that claim specifically in a moment.

Here is 30 seconds of video from the House of Representatives when on a straight party line vote, the decision was made to open this inquiry. Take a listen. Speaker 1 On this vote, the A's are 221 and the names are 212. The resolution is adopted. Right. That objection, the motion to reconsider is laid on the table. Speaker 3 There you go. So a jubilant and defiant Republican Party saying we are doing this thing. Now, there is one element of this that I want to discuss. It's essentially B.S., the approach of saying we don't have the proof,

but we need the power of the inquiry to find the proof so that they don't stone Wallace. It's 90 percent B.S. and even Republicans like Mitt Romney have said you should have the evidence first and then move on to an inquiry. Some Republicans like Nancy Mason, others have said they need the power of the inquiry in order to get the evidence they need. If you research the question, do congressional investigative powers have more teeth if they are part of an official impeachment inquiry? Legal opinion is divided on it. I think this is the most objective way to say it.

Overwhelmingly, what you will find are legal opinions that say you don't automatically get any special powers. The House has investigative powers, period, as the body that it is, as the legislative body that it is. It has investigative powers. One could argue that courts may be more deferential to an official impeachment inquiry than the day to day investigative powers of the House. One could argue those who are subpoenaed might take the subpoenas more seriously if they come from an official impeachment inquiry rather than just the House Judiciary Committee doing its normal day to day. But that's really

on the fringes. It's not a very strong case that opening an impeachment inquiry suddenly grants the House additional powers. Might their powers be taken more seriously? Might courts look a little more strongly at their view if it's part of an official impeachment inquiry? Yeah, maybe. But we're not talking about a mind blowing difference here. So in general, the argument that unless we do this, they won't give us any of the evidence and we'll be able to get it by making this an official inquiry. 5 percent true. Ninety five percent propaganda. Let's now move on to what this is really about. Just about every single day. We are seeing more instances of Republicans asked super simple questions about what is now a formal impeachment inquiry against President Joe Biden. And it basically goes the exact same way

every time. Here's Nancy Mace being interviewed by Maria Bartiromo. Can you identify any actual policy decisions that Joe Biden has made in response to getting paid for those policy changes? Well, we'll have to. That'll be part of the investigation. That'll be part of the investigation. What evidence do you have that he committed a high crime or misdemeanor?

Well, you know, we're struggling to get the evidence because we don't have an impeachment inquiry. We need the power of the impeachment inquiry to find it. It's called a phishing expedition. That's what this is fundamentally at the end of the day. And increasingly, I'm glad that there are some Democrats who are willing to say this is all just to try to help Trump in 2024. That's fundamentally what this is about. Eric Swalwell said it to me during an interview last week, and he said it again yesterday on the floor of the House of Representatives during debate about this. Take a look at this. Speaker 4

Problem is they have zero evidence. The only crime is that Joe Biden blew out Donald Trump in the 2020 election. And that's a problem because this place is the largest law firm in D.C. with these lawyers working on behalf of just one client, Donald Trump, at the expense of everything else that matters. This increasingly and obviously and brazenly and pathetically seems to be the case. Republicans are recognizing, listen, if we have a rematch of 2020, which they know Trump lost. Right. Maybe there's a handful that you can find who think Trump won in 2020. But all of our inside sources say Republicans know Trump lost. They just are playing coy with all this voter fraud stuff. You've got Republicans now in mid-December about to be the holiday break.

Then we will have the first Republican primary votes in January. I mean, it's now the election is now Republicans are recognizing, OK, let's think about this. Biden beat Trump in 2020. The popular vote margin was monstrous. OK, on Electoral College, if a few states went a little bit differently than it goes to Trump. But we have a fine economy. They know it's stock market record high. We'll talk about that later. Unemployment,

historic lows for sustained period of time, wage growth, GDP up, inflation down. They know it. They see it. They know the history. They know we can say Biden's old as much as we want, but they know the history that incumbent presidents tend to get reelected when the economy is this stable. And they realize that voters are going to go to the polls and they're going to say, OK, are we going to vote for the guy who already lost to Biden and is facing 91 felony charges and was impeached twice? Or are we going to vote for the guy who wasn't indicted for anything, who wasn't impeached for anything and has a stable economy? So the calculation that Republicans are making is maybe if we can get Biden impeached once, we'll put a little bit of a black cloud, a gray cloud

over the head of Biden. And so when voters go to the polls, it'll be, well, I've got two choices and they were both impeached, even if everything else about them is completely different. That's the Eric Swalwell perspective. And it makes a lot of sense to me that that's what they're doing. Here's Jamie Raskin yesterday. This was either after or as this debate was going on again, explaining they can't even articulate what is the offense that Joe Biden was engaged in, even theoretically. But they still want to move forward with this. President Biden has done nothing wrong.

They have not laid a glove on President Biden and they have no evidence of him committing committing any offense, much less an impeachable offense. So this is where we are. We take it that the Republicans, if they can get their votes together, are planning to vote to conduct an impeachment inquiry. OK, so this was right before that vote, which ultimately this is the way the vote went. Today, a repetition of everything that we've seen over the last 11 months. But we are in a remarkable juncture for the US House of Representatives, because this is an impeachment inquiry where no one has been able to define what criminal or constitutional

offense they're looking for. Because they can't find one. We don't know what the crime is. The mysteries are called a whodunit because it starts with the crime and then you try to determine who committed it. This is more like a what is it, not a whodunit. We don't know what the crime is. And there are thousands and thousands of pages of evidence, but all of the evidence demonstrates beyond any reasonable doubt that President Joe Biden is not guilty of any impeachable offense. Yeah. You remember that board game clue, which, by the way, I hated when I whenever I went

over to any kind of gathering and someone said, let's play Clue, I became despondent and said, how the hell do I get out of here? But regardless, you know, it's sort of like you set it up and then eventually the answer you're trying to get to is, oh, you know, it was Mr. Jones with the with the the the hockey stick in the study that murdered someone. Oh, OK. We have a weapon. We have a crime. We have a victim. We have elements of this. They are starting with none of that. They have the perpetrator, the perpetrator. They know it's Joe Biden. It's Hunter Biden, et cetera. Maybe it's James Biden. Why not?

Maybe Joe Biden. You know, maybe I don't know. Maybe Obama was part of it to some degree, but they don't actually have a crime and I don't think they care Obama was part of it to some degree, but they don't actually have a crime and I don't think they care. It seems abundantly clear that they are committed to this. And so officially, this now starts. Hunter Biden showed up in D.C. yesterday to say Joe Biden has nothing to do with any of my business dealings. What are you people doing?

We'll get to that video later. We'll get to all of it. But they seem determined. And I don't know that at this point, I don't think they're putting the genie back in the bottle. Let's put it that way. If you're still trying to think of the perfect holiday gift for your friend or family member, try cannabis.

Our sponsor, Ounce of Hope, ships psychoactive THC cannabis products right to your door all over the US. It's all federally legal. Even if marijuana is not legal in your state, they're giving you 20 percent off for the holidays with the code Pacman. Ounce of Hope has delectable holiday treats with Delta eight and nine THC that will bring you a ton of holiday cheer like brownies, Rice Krispies, treats, chocolates, caramels, even honey. They have gummies, beverages, soft gels, oils, topamels, even honey. They have gummies, beverages, soft gels, oils, topicals and CBD. Unlike other companies that sell these products,

Ounce of Hope's process is all in-house. They grow the cannabis and their mom and pop indoor farm in Memphis, Tennessee, produce all of the products there, too. You can trust that these are high quality, safe products arriving at your door. And when you give someone ounce of hope as a gift, you can tell them why. Ounce of Hope is such a cool company. Their cannabis plants are fertilized by fish poop from the fish they raise on the farm. The fish poop means it is an aqua panic farm. They do a lot for their community, feeding the homeless in the area, giving to local co-op gardens. Plus, Ounce of Hope supports the work we do at The David Pakman Show, and you can support them. Check out Ounce of Hope at ounceofhope.com. Take advantage of the holiday sale, 20% off

everything they offer with the code Pakman. That's O-U-N-C-E of hope.com. Use code Pacman for 20 percent off. The info is in the podcast notes. consistently high quality roasts, a ton of selection customization. I've been enjoying trade coffee for years, which is why I asked them to be a sponsor of the show. A subscription to trade is a great holiday gift for any coffee lover. You choose how much do you want to spend? Trade will help your recipient personalize coffee to their preferences. You don't have to worry about shipping or deadlines. The trade coffee subscription is delivered I get my espresso in a lighter roast the way I like it. I get my French press and Chemex in medium dark the way I like it. Whether you know what you like or you need some help figuring it out, trade coffee makes it super easy. Give the gift of amazing coffee. Give them an experience that will last all year from now We have to be honest with ourselves.

We have to be honest with each other. Donald Trump's decline is accelerating. He spoke yesterday in Iowa at Coralville in Coralville, and he looked confused. He was slurring. He said things that didn't make any sense. He invented words, whole cloth. And at a certain point, we have to be able to calculate if he's declining this quickly week to week. What will be left of this man's brain come his criminal trials and come the general election in November of twenty twenty four. I'm going to play some of

these clips. These are tough to watch the audience silent through large parts of this event, themselves apparently confused and concerned by what is happening with their great orange leader. Here is Donald Trump wrongly claiming that there is eight dollar a gallon gas right now. Gasoline prices are now five, six, seven dollars and even eight dollars a gallon. By contrast, under the Trump leadership, my leadership, inflation was nonexistent and we had gasoline down to a dollar eighty seven a gallon. Doesn't that sound beautiful? Now, let me be extraordinarily honest with you. Gas prices are publicly available. Gas prices are down 40 percent to an average of 305 a gallon.

Can you find super premium somewhere in the remote California coast for some number much higher than that? Sure, you can. But to show up at a rally and try to fire up an audience over high gas prices when they are down 40 percent during Biden's presidency doesn't make a lot of sense. By the way, inflation adjusted gas prices right now are the equivalent of 250 a gallon pre pandemic. Understand that the price of gas has come down. But if you make an inflation adjustment, this would be like paying 256 a gallon at the time that the pandemic started January of 2020.

So these I think we can chalk up to lies. But then look at the other things Trump tries. Trump says, name one thing that's gotten better under Biden. And the crowd is silent because we all know so many things that have gotten better. Not one thing, if you think about it, has gotten better under crooked Joe Biden. What name one thing where we're doing well? Well, for one, unemployment went from six point two to three point seven and stayed at three point seven for a longer period than we've seen in 50 years. The stock market hit an all time historic high yesterday and it's climbing even more today. Inflation is down to three point one. GDP growth is up. Wages are up. I could go on.

Now, it's all it's not all thanks to Biden, much the same way that the problems and successes of the economy under Trump were not all thanks to Trump. But this is a very weird line and the crowd knows it. Now, then it starts to get a little bit scary cognitively. Trump, I don't know what word he says here. He says something about Christmas. He says we're going to have a blank something by Christmas. I think he calls it a you ish, a you ish economy by Christmas. I don't know what that means. I think it's what he's saying. Take a listen to it with your vote by Christmas. And we're going to have it by Christmas 2024. That's just shortly after the election. Because of the momentum of our victory,

we will have a Unis economy roaring. We will have a Unish. What is that? What is that word? A Unish economy or something like that? Back in in twenty twenty five, we'll have one of the greatest economic years this nation has ever recorded. Twenty twenty four looks like it actually could be one of those years. And then Trump continuing to slur his words, bragging while slurring that he took a cognitive exam. Be happy to hear a great football player is going to be happy to hear this. I took a physical and I passed with flying colors and I took a cognitive exam. I said, doctor, give me anything you want. I want to take. Yeah, he. Oh, boy. This it's getting painful to watch. My friends, Trump then confused about what the Supreme Court does, says that prosecutors are trying to get a guilty plea from the Supreme Court. Of course, that's not what the Supreme Court does. Trump looks confused. The audience

is silent. Nobody knows what the hell is going on. And you know, now they're saying, let's rush it to the Supreme Court. We've got to rush it, rush it, rush it. They could have started three years ago. Everything, nothing changed. They could have started three years ago, but they didn't. They started just recently with this crap. They started just recently.

They could have brought this lawsuit, Brenna, three years ago, right after I left. It's been three years, but they didn't do that. And now they're saying we have to go immediately before the Supreme Court. This thing would have all been over with two years ago. But they waited and waited and waited and then they saw I was running and they waited and then they saw I was hot and they waited and then they saw I was hot and they filed a lawsuit. Trump was so hot. These are very dishonest people.

That's called election interference. He's a very and now they're fighting like hell because they want to try and get a guilty plea from the Supreme Court of the United States, which I can't imagine because you have presidential immunity. Well, it's not because you have presidential immunity. The Supreme Court doesn't hand out guilty pleas. I don't even know what this guy is talking about. And as you notice, the lips are zipped of the crowd. They don't know what the hell this guy's talking about. Trump then going after the fake news once again because they're covering the fact that he's been indicted. Imagine that Trump

says the way that the news should be behaving is not to cover the fact that a former president has been indicted four times. That would be not fake news. Speaker 3 We are a nation that no longer has a free and fair press. Fake news is all you get. And they are indeed the enemy of the people. They refuse to discuss the Biden crime family, but enjoy covering the false indictments of Donald J. Trump, who has done nothing wrong except win an election. We are a nation where free speech is no longer allowed and where crime is rampant and out of control. You know, I think the reason that the fake news media so-called is struggling to cover the Biden crimes is even Republicans

can't tell us what the crimes are. It's sort of like Obamagate. We still don't know what that is. Trump says if he's not elected, there will be an economic depression for. And if we're not elected, we'll have a depression, the likes of which I don't believe anybody has ever seen. Maybe 1929. That's what's going to happen. What's particularly funny about this is Trump made the same prediction in 2020, saying if Biden gets elected, we're going to have a 1929 style depression. Trump making this claim as we have sustained sub 4 percent unemployment and quite literally on the day that the Dow Jones Industrial Average REITs reaches an all time historic high. Last clip from this totally deranged rally. Here is Trump saying that Joe Biden has low IQ during this holiday season.

Families all across America are struggling under the brutal weight of Bidenomics. You know, Bidenomics means a lot of bad things this year alone. The typical American family is seven thousand five hundred dollars poorer because Crooked Joe's globalist blunders and greedy betrayals have really hurt us badly. Joe Biden is a low IQ individual and he is truly the worst, most incompetent and most corrupt president in the history of the United States. So that actually the crowd was most alive when Trump said Joe Biden has a low IQ, confused, slurring, disoriented and dishonest. And unfortunately, the attendees at the rally were no better. I'm going to play a clip for you

of a woman at last night's Trump rally in Iowa. And I am not doing this to make fun of anybody. I am not doing this to make diagnoses that I am not qualified to make. I am doing this because it is once again a question of. When are these not merely political or religious beliefs, but they are diagnosable mental illness? I don't know the answer. I'm asking you, OK, here is a video of a woman that they interviewed yesterday at the Trump rally. And, you know, we talked about this yesterday. We have to go back to it. We talked about it yesterday with regard to MAGA Mike Johnson. Is the content of what this woman says not a paranoid delusion? Is this not mental illness? Let's listen to it and then let's discuss.

I don't want to say he's perfect. The only perfect person that ever walked this earth was Jesus. But he is. He was wonderful in office for four years and he proved that. So what is it about Trump that you love so much? Number one, he's a godly man. He's working for God, for darn sure. Number two, he really cares about us. He cares about us. He cares about what happens to us. He cares about our country.

He didn't come in there because he wanted the money. He's got money. He's come in there because he is actually working for God, and he wants to help us, and he wants to get us to a good spot He wants to make America great again. And I, you know, it's true, you know, but I think he's going to make it even greater because I don't think no matter what they try to do to stop him, he's going to come back because he's working for God and God's on his side. Speaker 1 God is on his side and he is working directly for God. Folks, you know, I know that when when we look at the when people make claims equivalent to this without a religious context,

often they are medicated. Right. You go to a psychiatrist and you say stuff like this or what Mike said yesterday about God told me I'm going to be a Jesus like figure as speaker of the house. You're often prescribed antipsychotics like Haldol or Zyprexa or Seroquel. These first line or second line medications that are out there widely available for psychosis, for paranoid delusions. And yet it's considered inappropriate to wonder whether folks like this should also be medicated. Now, again, this isn't about stigmatizing mental illness. It's actually quite the opposite. It's we talk about there is so much undiagnosed mental illness. And part of it is that mental illness is often under health insurance, considered this separate thing with different policies and

reimbursements in a different department. And people either don't have the wherewithal or simply don't have the coverage that they need to avail themselves of these services. Part of this is about primary care is often not good enough at saying there's something called integration where they try to integrate mental health services into primary care. So you go in because of what you say is a physical symptom and the primary care doctors are trained to determine this may be someone who would actually benefit from mental health services. This is not about we need to run. You know, we don't they don't need a they don't need an X-ray. What they need is a therapist. Right. So so integration is a movement that's trying to get in the middle of and try to expose people more to these sorts of things. But in all

seriousness, what would happen if we gave some of these folks the types of medications that when it's not a religious justification for their beliefs, but it's the sort of man yelling on the subway platform sort of stuff can be effective. And again, I'm not looking to stigmatize or attack or make fun of, but I wonder how much of people getting sucked into these cults where they believe Trump was chosen by God to become some sort of messianic figure, how much of it might benefit from being treated as if it was just regular old psychosis or paranoid delusions? I know there's a ton of mental health professionals in the audience. Let me know what you think. You know, this is really quite a day. Yesterday and even more today, as we are filming, the stock market is at all time record highs,

all time record highs. Remember this sort of interesting moment from the 2020 presidential debate? They said the stock market will move if I'm elected. If he's elected, the stock market will crash. Right. And then 12 seconds later, not exactly 12 seconds later, this announcement about the stock market 12 seconds later, that Bell marks a new record high for the Dow Jones industrial average going to close above thirty seven thousand for the first time ever. For the first time ever, Dow with a record close.

Here is Fox News bringing the news to their audience. Finish we've seen now in the better part of two years, the Dow has never been higher. The other average is racing along. We'll tell you what sparked this and what it could mean and portend for you in the months ahead. Your world. So there you go. Fox News having to admit it. Now, listen, I'm the first to tell you the Dow is not the entire stock market, although the S&P is also basically at the same historic highs. The stock market is not the economy. The stock market doesn't tell you anything about wages or whether the average person can afford food. That's not what this is about. OK, but it is another failed prediction from Donald Trump. And remember, he's making the exact same prediction again. This is from yesterday for

and if we're not elected, we'll have a depression, the likes of which I don't believe anybody has ever seen. Maybe 1929. That's what's going to happen. That prediction he made in 2020 stock market all time high, unemployment record low, wage growth up, GDP growth up, inflation down. It failed. So now he says, well, if you don't elect me next time,

this should make it so that this guy has no shot. This sort of thing. If Biden wins, you're going to have a depression. Economy's great. Well, if Biden wins again, you're going to have a depression. You should immediately have no credibility. This guy who's polling 60 percent among Republican voters and and potentially could be reelected. He should be laughed into the what's that thing that the Sanctus calls it the dustbin of history. He should be laughed into the dustbin of history politically. But he's not. And part of it isn't about Trump. It's about the voters. But follow the numbers.

Stock market record high, even though Trump's prediction was record low. Just evaluate the numbers. Stock market record high, even though Trump's prediction was record low. Just evaluate the numbers. Let's not do the thing this holiday season where you're racing around to multiple stores, spending way too much time scanning shelves for some perfect gift and then getting another gift card for mom. Here's an idea that will make mom or dad or stepmom or brother or friend very happy this year. A digital picture frame from or frames that can be preloaded with pictures. The New York Times named Aura the best digital photo frame. I've given each of my parents one of these as a gift.

My girlfriend gave her parents an or a frame as a gift. We loaded them in advance with pictures of the baby, which everyone loves. And now I can keep adding pictures or my parents can. Whoever wants to manage it, it's all done seamlessly over Wi-Fi with the aura app and you get infinite cloud storage. You don't have to deal with memory cards and USB cables and this sort of thing. One frame can have multiple users who add and remove pictures. And I love how you can load the pictures without even opening the frame. So you give them a brand new wrapped up frame already has pictures on it. You'll also get thirty dollars off their best selling frames when you go to or a frames

dot com slash Pacman and then use the code Pacman. These frames sell out quickly. Get yours before they're gone. That's a you are a frames dot com slash Pacman. Use the code Pacman for thirty dollars off. The info is in the podcast notes. Sometimes it can be tough to maintain an emotional connection with your significant other. You might work in different places at different times. There might be a kid in the way. It can be hard to find time for date nights, especially because kids demand so much attention, which is why I love our sponsor paired, which is the app for couples. The app will prompt you with a daily question or a game or a guided conversation, all designed by leading psychologists. And the point is to just have a deeper connection

with your partner, boost intimacy, build a deeper knowledge of one another. My girlfriend and I will use the prompts on paired throughout the day to stay connected. For instance, we answered a prompt about what we remember most from the early days of the relationship. It really helps us learn new things. And there can be funny moments as well. An independent study found that couples using paired saw 36 percent increase in the quality Thank you. I.R.E.D. Dotcom slash Pacman for a free trial and 25 percent off. The link is in the podcast notes. It's great to welcome to the program today, Steve Inskeep, who's host of NPR's Morning Edition, as well as NPR's Morning News podcast.

Up first, he's author of the new book, Differ. We must how Lincoln succeeded in a divided America. Steve, it's so great to have you on. I really appreciate it. Thank you for the invitation. I'm glad to join you. You know, it's interesting to start a conversation about Lincoln today with the country arguably as divided as it's been in a long time. You know, the former President Donald Trump has famously made some comparisons to Lincoln, saying he arguably may have been even better for black folks than Lincoln was and other extremely hyperbolic comparisons.

We don't have to weigh in on that necessarily, but I am interested in your view about what was it about Lincoln and the Lincoln era with the country as divided today as it is that it that interested you in looking at it through this lens? Yeah, part of it is just like Lincoln is always interesting. There's a reason there are thousands of books about Lincoln. He seems relevant all the time in different ways. But I was writing this book during I got started in 2020. So I was researching this during the period of the 2020 election and Trump's effort to overturn the election that he lost and everything that's happened that happened since.

And the story did feel more and more and more relevant to me. And it's not that we're divided in exactly the same way as we were, that we're heading for a civil war. I don't particularly feel that we're heading for a civil war. I mean, I'm happy to continue reporting on whatever happens and we'll see how things feel six months from now or a year from now. But it's not exactly the same,

but it is the same basic republic. And Lincoln faced this challenge that I think we do face today, which is we're not going to get everybody to agree. We have a lot of people with fundamental differences, but how do you assemble a majority to at least support the system, to support the institutions we have? You know, one of the things I've been talking about with my audience as someone who's on the left is not thinking about people like Mitt Romney and George W. Bush or Chris Christie or whoever

as people who I think are, you know, God's gift to politics or whatever the case may be. But the sort of practical reality that if we disagree about what the top tax rate should be or to what degree we should be funding certain programs, it's a much more sane disagreement than, you know, a lot of the stuff, for example, we saw at the most recent Republican debate about January 6th being a setup by the government or about so-called the mutilation of genitals and what seems like these extreme conversations. I can't help but wonder whether you agree that the disagreements in the era of Lincoln were maybe more like the ones I'm talking about, about what the top tax rate should be with people that are generally sane? Or am I wrong about that?

Were they as extreme as. No, no, no. Well, it's it's I want to think of the difference a little. Think of the contrast between the two eras a little differently. I think that not all, but a lot of our differences today are about style rather than substance. They're about fantasies versus facts. I mean, the thing that you talked about, like extreme rhetoric, a lot of our culture wars are ultimately about nothing. I mean, they're about someone's, I don't know, just someone's attitude or someone's implied statements. Of course, we also have real differences, serious differences today. Abortion is the first thing that comes to mind, but I could name 10 others. In the Civil War era, they had something that arguably was harder because it was a

fundamental difference about who gets to be a human being, about who gets to have full rights, and how do you organize the economy? What does it mean to have free labor? Who gets to have free labor? I mean, there were big, substantive, philosophical differences that had to be argued out. That is really, really hard to deal with. That's one of the reasons that, at least for this minute, I'm not like forecasting a civil war or something. Of course, our differences are very real today. And you pointed at something very important when you talk about being someone from the left who has an appreciation for Mitt Romney, because Mitt Romney gets the Constitution. And aside from the words of the Constitution, he gets democracy, which means that nobody gets to win 100% of the time. Nobody gets to win permanently. Nobody gets to have all the power. And even if you did, in theory, have all the power, you should probably take into

consideration a lot of your fellow citizens because it's a democracy and we're all supposed to be equal citizens. I think somebody like Mitt Romney gets that. I think somebody like Lynne Cheney gets that. If you're on the left, you probably had a wildly different opinion of Lynne Cheney just five years ago. Speaker 1 You mean Liz, right? Speaker 2 Liz Cheney.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah, yeah. So forgive me. Thank you very much. Thank you for thank you for the thank you for the correction. Dick Cheney's daughter and a former member of Congress from Wyoming. In any case, you probably had a very different opinion of Cheney five years ago. Her positions have not changed. But if you're on the left, there is something you can work with her on that you can deal with her on that is really, really important. And that is a thing that I feel that I learned about Lincoln.

He could be friends with a slave owner, someone we would consider totally morally bankrupt. But the way that he looked at this guy was we disagree on nine out of 10 things. But the 10th thing is something I can get some value out of. Yeah. So I want to dig into that a little bit more, because as you say in the book, you explore I disagree on nine out of 10 things, but the 10th thing is something I can get some value out of. Yeah. So I want to dig into that a little bit more because as you say in the book, you explore Lincoln engaging with people who supported slavery. They thought that slavery was a good thing.

It should be legal. It's a positive thing for the economy or it's not violating people's rights, whatever. Lincoln of course was against it. I sometimes will get people who call in and they say, Hey David, how do you deal with people in your life who you disagree with politically? And I say there's a difference between someone thinks that the top tax rate should be lower and someone thinks Jews are subhuman as a as a human and as a Jewish person. I'm going to have a much harder time, including in my life, the person who thinks that Jews are subhuman.

So today, I think a conversation with someone who thinks it should be legal to have slaves would be much more difficult maybe than it was when it was normal, so-called to have slaves. But but regardless, what was Lincoln's engagement with those who supported slavery? How did he balance the moral aspect of it or the economic or whatever the case may be? What was that relationship like? Yeah. A couple of things to say about that. One is that we understand that there's really like a black and white position on slavery today. It's right or it's wrong. And if you think it's right, like what's the matter with

you? Yeah. And we get that at the time when we can relate to that with other issues today, there was a kind of sliding scale. There was a small we would consider all these positions to be wrong today, but we can understand them on a human level where you would say slavery is unfortunate and evil, but it just is, it's a tradition. Slavery is wrong, but I can't figure out what to do about it. Slavery is wrong, but it's in my interest. And there were even literal slave owners who would say slavery is evil, but I inherited these slaves and they're my property. And it's just the way the system is. Or

I would like to end slavery, but it would cause a race war if there were all these free black people running around. I mean, all these incredible rationalizations for why you should do nothing. And those people are all wrong by our lights, but they may also have been in some cases people that a guy like Lincoln could work with, could ally with because he could get a little bit out of them. And that is part of what dealing with people

who have different opinions is. Like we have this attitude today. And it's prevalent on the left. I mean, there's a different version of it on the right. But on the left, you feel that it's like morally wrong to talk to someone who is wrong about an issue that it morally taints you and they are morally bankrupt. And we need to be clear. That's not my view, but I know that some on the left do feel that I will talk to mostly whoever. But yeah, no, no, I and I totally get it.

And some people have even pointed out to me, like if you're if you're gay, if you're black, do you like do you have to, like, expose yourself and smile to someone who denies your humanity? I don't think that you have to do that. No, not at all. But there are circumstances in which the other person is not necessarily evil. They're just wrong. And that doesn't even mean you have to like compromise your principles or accept their wrongness. But maybe you figure out in some cases that you don't have to take it personally and that there are a couple of things you can deal with them on. And even if you can't deal

with them on anything, maybe you can learn something from the conversation about how to get them, how to outvote them, which is what a democracy is about. What sorts of things could Lincoln get from the most ardent pro-slavery people? OK, the most ardent pro-slavery people, almost nothing. I mean, he ended up fighting a civil war after all. But let's think of a couple of examples in that gray zone. His best friend of his life, Joshua Speed, was a guy from Kentucky, from a rich Kentucky family. He grew up on a hemp farm worked by slaves.

At the time of his father's death, his father owned 50-some black people. That was the official property record in the will. So that was the world in which Joshua Speed grew up. But he then moved north to the free state of Illinois. He became friends with Lincoln, best friends with Lincoln. In fact, they were roommates for like four years. And in the 1850s, by which time they were both, you know, pretty well into adulthood, there is this letter where Lincoln writes him. And Speed has accepted as an abstract notion that slavery is wrong. He no longer buys that it's a good idea.

But Lincoln thinks that Speed is politically wrong. He's not serious politically about doing what is possible against it, that he's rationalizing away any possibility of acting against slavery. And so Lincoln tells him clearly why he thinks Joshua Speed is wrong. Then goes on to say, but if for this we must differ, differ we must, which is where the title of my book comes from. And he signs this letter, Your Friend Forever. He keeps in touch with Joshua Speed. And a few years later, when Lincoln was elected president, and when his election as an anti-slavery president caused southern states to try to leave the Union, Joshua Speed played a role as a prominent Kentuckian in trying to keep his state of Kentucky in the union, a slave state in the

union. And so like they were not on the same page as regards slavery, but they were are they were on the same page as regards the United States. Right. And that was a value that Lincoln got. Got out of keeping that line open. Steve, I want to ask you a little bit about an incident I'm sure many in my audience remember, which is when you interviewed the former President Donald Trump, you asked him about 2020 election fraud claims and he basically just hung up on you.

I'm I'm curious, first of all, how long did that interview take to even coordinate? Is it weeks? Is it months? Does it come together quickly? What was like the buildup to that conversation? Speaker 5 Well, I've spoken in public about this, so I'm not like telling tales on anybody, but it took six years to get this interview. I first started trying to get Trump on the line, in fact, more than six years, sometime in 2015 when he was running for president. And in early 2016, just before the Iowa caucuses,

an aide said to me, he will talk to you after the Iowa caucuses. And he did talk to me after the Iowa caucuses. It just took six years after the Iowa caucuses. But I just kept asking and kept asking and kept making the case. I think it is important for us to cover everybody. And if you think the person is dangerous, it is important for us to cover everybody. And if you think the person is dangerous, it is more important that I get you good information about what they're doing and saying and learn whatever I can. And he eventually just took the call. And I can't even really tell you why he took that call when he didn't take other ones. But he finally did, to his credit, until he hung up. So it takes six years. You finally

talked to him. You know, given what had gone on, that you're going to use this line of questioning. Do you anticipate that he may just hang up? Do you potentially want him to hang up because it's interesting? What was your approach? No, no, no, no. I don't I don't want to create a hang up moment just for a hangup moment. I had more questions for him. We had agreed to talk for 15 minutes and I think we talked a little under 10. I could have made good use of that extra, that extra five minutes. To be honest, it did not cross my mind that he would hang up. Other people who talked to him were not surprised. It's not the only hangup call he's ever done to to a journalist,

as I learned afterward. But I was completely surprised in terms of the way that Trump's candidacy is being covered right now, to the extent that you're watching. Is anybody striking the right tone in terms of the level of alarmism? Because there is the this is a fundamental systemic threat to democracy to, you know, maybe he'll try to do some of these things. He almost certainly won't succeed and maybe he won't even try. What do you think of the tone that you're seeing in terms of the report? Oh, well, I mean, I think some of the tone is overblown and some of the tone is like

people aren't even paying attention. Kind of depends on the channel. I can talk about, I guess, the way that I want to try to approach it as a journalist. And that is that I want to ruthlessly say the facts. And I shouldn't really need to use hyperbole because the facts are pretty dramatic in and of themselves. And even if the facts weren't dramatic, my job is to give you the facts. And I don't need to call him terrible things. I can describe the things that he does accurately and relentlessly, and you can make up your own mind and you may decide that it's really great.

I mean, that's part of the challenge that America now faces. There is a large number of American voters who believe the system is rigged, that the system does not work for them, and they want somebody to get in there and smash it. And the former president has been pretty explicit, like, if I win again, my job is going to be to break things, break a lot more things than I did last time. And there's some people who want that. And I don't think you need me to tell you whether that is right or wrong. But you do need me to report like, what does this guy say he's really going to do if he is elected again? And what are people doing to build a coalition behind him? And what are people doing to build a coalition behind Joe Biden or whoever

else may end up on the ballot with the various third party candidates and everything? What you need from me is information and intelligence so that if you're undecided about how to vote, you can cast an informed vote. Or if you already know for sure how you're going to vote, you know what the players are and what is going on. So you understand how to respond. Steve, I really appreciate your time. The book is differ. We must how Lincoln succeeded in a divided America. We'll link to Steve Inskeep's book. Thank you so much. Great to meet you and appreciate your time. Speaker 2 I've enjoyed it. Thank you so much. Speaker 1 You might remember that a few years ago the show got hacked and a bunch of money was stolen

and we never got it back. But I now have more peace of mind because I'm using Aura. Our sponsor, Aura, is your all in one tool for protecting your online and financial accounts. Aura alerts you anytime your personal information is found on the dark web or data breaches like social security number, login credentials, financial accounts, and you get super fast alerts if a criminal does something like try to open a bank account in your name or take out a credit card in your name. Aura also lets you instantly lock your experience credit file with a single click to stop unwanted

inquiries into your credit history. Aura will monitor your bank accounts, home and auto titles. All of these things really just safeguard you against fraud of all kinds. Aura even protects your phone by letting you block and screen spam calls and texts. And aura has parental controls for your kids devices. You can restrict apps or manage screen time, set focus time to make sure they're doing homework instead of binging YouTube or whatever the case may be. You can try aura for free for 14 days at aura.com slash Pacman. That's a u r a.com slash Pacman. The link is in the podcast notes. You know, one of the odd things that goes on in bathrooms in the United States,

where is this going is, you know, when I moved to the U S from Argentina, there's really no bidets in the United States. The bidet is just a part of life in Argentina. And why would you make a compromise in the bathroom? Why not have the elevated level of comfort and cleanliness, which is now easy and affordable with our sponsor? Hello, Tushy. The Hello Tushy bidet cleans everything with a fresh stream of water two times better than alternatives like paper. You just spray and pat. It cuts down toilet paper use by 80 percent.

It saves you money. It reduces paper waste. So a hello tushy bidet really pays for itself in under a year, attaches to your existing toilet. You don't need an electrician. You don't need a plumber. You install it takes eight minutes or less. Super easy. I got one and it is fantastic. And with over one hundred thousand five star reviews, every bidet comes with a 30 day risk free guarantee, 12 month warranty. Stop wiping and start washing. Hello, Tushy is offering my audience an exclusive limited time offer of 15 percent off your

first bidet order plus free shipping. Go to HelloTushy.com slash Pacman and use the code Pacman. That's 15 percent off all bidets at HelloTushy dot com slash Pacman and use the code Pacman. That's 15 percent off all bidets at hello to she dot com. Just enter promo code Pacman at checkout. The link is in our podcast notes. See site for details. Well, this is an interesting turn of events. Hunter Biden. Yeah, you remember where is Hunter? Where is he? No one knows where he is. Hunter Biden showed up in Washington, D.C. yesterday, moments before Republicans voted to launch an impeachment inquiry into his father, Joe Biden. Hunter Biden, who has no involvement with the Biden administration and who has not been linked in any way to Joe Biden with regard

to any of the wild and nebulous allegations that have been made against him. He showed up in Washington, D.C., and he said, my dad doesn't have anything to do with the stuff that I've done. I haven't always made the right decision. But Joe Biden hasn't been involved in any of it. And Republicans wildly triggered by it. Here's the statement from Hunter Biden. It's absurd that the son of a president who has nothing to do with his administration even has to do this. But this is where we are today. Thanks to Republicans. Listen to this. I'm here today to make sure that the House committee's illegitimate investigations of my family do not proceed on distortions, manipulated evidence and lies.

And I'm here today to acknowledge that I've made mistakes in my life and wasted opportunities and privileges I was afforded. For that, I'm responsible. For that, I'm accountable. And for that, I'm making amends. But I'm also here today to correct how the MAGA right has portrayed me for their political purposes. I am first and foremost a son, a father, a brother, and a husband from a loving and supportive family. I'm proud to have earned degrees from Georgetown University and Yale Law School. I'm proud of my legal career and business career.

I'm proud of my time serving on a dozen different boards of directors. And I'm proud of my efforts to forge global business relationships. For six years, MAGA Republicans, including members of the House committees who are in a closed-door session right now, have impugned my character, invaded my privacy, attacked my wife, my children, my family, and my friends. They've ridiculed my struggle with addiction. They've belittled my recovery. And they have tried to dehumanize me, all to embarrass and damage my father, who has devoted his entire public life to service.

For six years, I have been the target of the unrelenting Trump attack machine shouting, Where's Hunter? You know, oh, sorry, hold on. Well, here's my answer. I am here. There you go. It's genuinely sad that he has to do this. He it's not like Jared Kushner and Ivanka and Don Jr. and Eric, who are attention seekers throughout the entire presidency of Donald Trump, some even working directly in the White House. Hunter Biden's not looking for that. And here he makes clear Joe Biden just has nothing to do with his business dealings. Let me state as clearly as I can. My father was not financially involved in my business, not as a practicing lawyer, not as a board member of Burisma, not my partnership with a Chinese private businessman, not in my investments at home nor abroad, and certainly not as an artist.

During my battle with addiction, my parents were there for me. They literally saved my life. They helped me in ways that I will never be able to repay. And of course, they would never expect me to. And in the depths of my addiction, I was extremely irresponsible with my finances. But to suggest that is grounds for an impeachment inquiry is beyond the absurd. It's shameless. Speaker 1 So listen, after all this, I don't know that I could bring myself to vote for Hunter Biden. Now, I don't even really have to make that choice because he's not running for anything and he's not involved with Joe Biden's presidency in any way, period.

Full stop. And this doesn't actually matter to Republicans. John Hunter Biden insisting, I will testify, but I will do it in public. Republicans don't want that. And Republicans losing their minds over Hunter Biden showing up, not doing their closed door testimony, but instead speaking publicly. Let's talk about their reaction next. After Hunter Biden showed up in Washington, D.C., and said publicly, my dad had nothing to do with my business. You've been making my life a living hell for six years. My words, not his. You're belittling my recovery from addiction. You're belittling the problem

that I had a drug drug use disorder. Republicans are just furious. They're absolutely furious. By the way, Jim Jordan, who himself has ignored subpoenas, is furious that Hunter Biden won't testify behind closed doors for them. Listen to this guy. Second thing I would say is this in a few hours, I think the House of Representatives is going to pass the impeachment inquiry. They did. And that is an important step. If you talk to any scholars in this, I think we could proceed as we did under Speaker McCarthy, where he announced it. But this is an important step. The impeachment power resides solely with the House of Representatives. The majority of the House now says we're in an official impeachment inquiry as part of our constitutional duty to do oversight. That carries weight. That's going to help us get these witnesses in.

And maybe most importantly, regarding this morning's activities, this is the argument that the White House and Hunter Biden's counsel used to say he shouldn't come. OK, we disagree. We thought he should have been here. But when we take that vote this afternoon, what's our argument going to be then? We think he should come in. And so if he doesn't, we're going to we're going to move forward with contempt proceedings. There's a process we have to follow, but we plan to do that. All right.

So they are saying he is not showing up to testify the way we want him to testify behind closed doors. And we are going to move to hold him in contempt, says Jim Jordan, who himself has refused to appear for lawful subpoenas. He's one of the loudest screaming about this. Why? Because the rules don't apply to them. The rules don't apply when they are inconvenient.

Marjorie Taylor Greene furiously tweeting rather than follow the lawful subpoena for a deposition issued by James Comer. Hunter Biden decided to play circus outside the Capitol this morning. President Trump's own children sat for hours of depositions after being subpoenaed countless times by Democrats. We must immediately move forward to hold Hunter in contempt of Congress and then going forward and publishing this bit of an interview with her where now, apparently she is the arbiter of what is good, right, moral and legal.

Speaker 4 Follow the process for contempt of Congress, which absolutely should be done. Hunter Biden refusing to show up today is unacceptable. President Trump's own children sat for hours and hours, seven, eight, nine hours each of them in front of Democrat led committees. Why? Why is it a double standard for the Biden family? Hunter Biden clearly is trying to hide and cover up the money laundering and the abuse of power that he and his father are guilty of. Yes, that very that that wide spanning criminal conspiracy for which Marjorie and other Republicans have still been able to find zero evidence. Republican Congresswoman Nancy Mace tweeting out in oversight committee room. We're waiting. If Hunter Biden doesn't show up, hold him

in contempt. They should be mad at their fellow Republicans for making them look this dumb. This is their fault. They insisted that they want to move forward with this entire sham impeachment with no evidence. They insisted they need the inquiry, even without evidence, to find the evidence that they say is being covered up. But we have no evidence even exists. Right. We don't we don't know that it even exists. And they got themselves in too deep there in over their heads and they now can't back out of it. So what can they do? Claim it's all cover up, claim everybody else is breaking the law, even though they do the same thing. So ultimately, is Hunter Biden going to sit down in public behind closed doors and answer questions? I don't know. I have no problem

with him doing it. I don't believe at this time that there is any evidence that Joe Biden is linked to any of the wrongdoing that has allegedly taken place. They've not identified the crimes. They've not identified the misdemeanors, the wrongdoing. If they do, I will be here and I will tell you, yeah, Joe Biden's not special. He's not exempt, but they've got to put forward some evidence. And if it doesn't exist, just say it doesn't exist and you messed up. I'll respect them more than if they go forward with an impeachment despite no evidence. We have a voicemail number. That number is two one nine two. David P. I love voicemails like this. Here's a woman who's furious saying, how on earth does a blabbering libtard like you have two million subscribers?

Well, read the numbers and weep. Young lady, take a listen to this. Listen, I don't know who these two two million people are who subscribe to you, but you are awful. You're a terrible interviewer. You don't even listen to your guests. I didn't even like the shaman guy until he was on your show and was clearly more cool and logical than you were. You sound like a babbling libtard who just is like, oh, wait, hang on, back up. We're going to we're going to keep this on point here. We're going to I mean, that's right. I was trying to control the interview to prevent the shaman from going gish gallop and changing the topic every time he was cornered without facts. Guilty as charged,

ma'am. I did do that. You weren't. You're just you're awful at your job. You think you only pack it up and I can't wait to see your demise. Goodbye. There you go. And listen, this is not the only person who's been waiting for the demise of The David Pakman Show for a long time. When we were at one hundred000 subscribers. There were people already

waiting and wishing for our demise that they felt was inevitable. And then we got to a million and then to two million. So by all means, keep waiting, ma'am. I love it. We've got a great bonus show for you today. We'll tell you what the Supreme Court is up to. We'll tell you what the Fed is up to as far as interest rates and what's likely to happen in 2024. All of those stories and more on the bonus show. Oh, the bonus show where you want to make money. Everybody else that makes money to fund themselves is bad. Join Pacman dot com is the place to sign up. I'll see you then. And then tomorrow it's the Friday show.