The David Pakman Show - 1/23/24: NH primary tonight, Trump heckled, Yang tells Marianne to get out

Episode Date: January 23, 2024

-- On the Show: -- Congressman Ro Khanna (D-CA) joins David to discuss the Biden impeachment inquiry, the 2024 election, artificial intelligence, and much more -- A deepfake AI version of President Joe Biden's voice goes out as a robocall to many New Hampshire voters, telling them to stay home today -- A Nikki Haley supporter says that she would vote for Joe Biden over Donald Trump if Haley is not ultimately the Republican nominee -- Former Democratic Presidential candidate Andrew Yang endorses Dean Phillips for President and asks Marianne Williamson to drop out of the race, which angers Marianne -- Failed former President Donald Trump holds a rally in Laconia, New Hampshire, during which he looks terrible, slurs badly, and confuses the audience -- Donald Trump's final rally before the New Hampshire primary, in Laconia, New Hampshire, is plagued by hecklers and protesters -- In a new low, failed former President Donald Trump challenges Nikki Haley to a dementia test -- Republican Congresswoman Elise Stefanik tries defending Donald Trump's scary cognitive gaffe about Nikki Haley and Nancy Pelosi -- Donald Trump Jr says that Tucker Carlson may well be Donald Trump's Vice Presidential running mate in 2024 -- Voicemail caller wants to know why progressives should vote to re-elect President Joe Biden in 2024 -- On the Bonus Show: SCOTUS allows Biden administration to remove razor wire on US-Mexico border, NYC plans to wipe out $2 billion in medical debt for 500,000 residents, FL Republican nixes plan to have taxpayers pay Trump's legal bills, much more... 💰 Oxygen: Sign up for a personal or business account at https://davidpakman.com/oxygen 🧘 PHD Weight Loss: Call 864-644-1900 and mention Pakman for a free week! 🩳 SHEATH Underwear: Code PAKMAN for 20% OFF at https://sheathunderwear.com/pakman 💻 Stay protected! Try our sponsor Aura FREE for 2 weeks at https://aura.com/pakman 🪒 Henson Shaving: Use code PAKMAN for FREE blades at https://hensonshaving.com/pakman -- Become a Supporter: http://www.davidpakman.com/membership -- Subscribe on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/thedavidpakmanshow -- Subscribe to Pakman Live: https://www.youtube.com/pakmanlive -- Follow us on Twitter: http://twitter.com/davidpakmanshow -- Like us on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/davidpakmanshow -- Leave us a message at The David Pakman Show Voicemail Line (219)-2DAVIDP

. Primary election of 2024 number two is tonight. It's in New Hampshire. I'll be streaming live starting at 7 p.m. Eastern. We will get results. One very interesting and troubling aspect to this is the impact of artificial intelligence, deep fakes and cloned voices. And we're dealing with this right now.

Yesterday, this is a crime to be clear, a robocall purporting to be from President Joe Biden, suggesting to Democratic voters that they stay home, was sent out to an as yet unknown number of New Hampshire voters. It certainly sounds like Joe Biden. We will hear it in a moment. And it is really important to understand that this is a crime. NBC News reports the New Hampshire attorney general's office is investigating what appears to be an unlawful attempt at voter suppression after NBC News reported on a robocall impersonating President Joe Biden, which told recipients not to vote in tonight's primary. I think it is critically important to listen to this a little bit.

It certainly sounds like Joe Biden. We've messed around with some of these tools. We fed it some of my voice and then typed in what we wanted it to say. And even to me, it almost sounded like me. Listen to this. You know the value of voting Democratic on our votes count. It's important that you save your vote for the November election. We'll need your help in electing Democrats up and down the ticket.

Voting this Tuesday only enables the Republicans in their quest to elect Donald Trump again. Your vote makes a difference in November, not just Tuesday. If you would like to be removed from future calls, please press two. So that is a completely farcical call in the sense that it has nothing to do whatsoever with Joe Biden. An investigation is ongoing. This is a form of election interference, not the imaginary forms that Donald Trump talks about, but real election interference.

People have been convicted for this in the past. You might remember back in twenty twenty two, Jacob Wall, who and Jack Berkman, who ran this scam where fraudulent robocalls went out to eighty five thousand people in Michigan, New York, Pennsylvania, Illinois and Ohio. There is another story about Douglas Mackey, as reported here by The New York Times. This was from about five, six months ago. And this is an individual who spread Internet memes meant to fool people into not voting for Hillary in 2016. And he was ultimately sentenced to seven months in prison.

So this is indeed election interference. It's a form of election fraud. Whoever did it will hopefully be prosecuted. But even if this individual is prosecuted, we just have to acknowledge this is going to be a problem. I do not speak on the phone or answer my phone or anything. But there are lots of people who do. And if you do at any point now, you could get a call from someone who genuinely sounds

like they are whoever someone, you know, through the media, someone, you know, personally, and it might not be them. How is this going to be dealt with? I don't have the answers yet, but being aware of the fact that this is possible is the first step. A Nikki Haley supporter explained that while they are supporting Haley in the primary, if ultimately the nominee is Trump, they will vote vote for Biden over Trump. You know, we're going to look at this is Jen Psaki from MSNBC interviewing this gentleman.

And I believe he's a gentleman. Maybe I'm wrong. He is saying the same thing that some of my more moderate friends say, which is I don't love Biden, but he's not terrible. Trump's absolutely disgusting. I'm supporting Nikki. And if Nikki loses, ultimately, I will vote for Joe Biden. That's what this individual says. Let's take a listen. You're going to support on Tuesday. Yes, I think I have. I think I'm a Nikki supporter. Are you open to supporting Joe Biden?

I am. I voted for him in the last election. I haven't been pleased with some of his policies. What have you been most displeased with? Just just the spending. By the way, totally meaningless. I'm displeased with the spending. Oh, which spending? And do you know that a bunch of those programs are economically stimulative and they actually generate more for the economy than what they cut?

It's not even worth it. Right. Oh, I'm I don't like the spending. Oh, boy. Give me a break, dude. And his treatment of the border. I think we've got real problems that he's failing to recognize and do something with. But he's a much better choice than Trump.

All right. So that is not a super rare occurrence. It's not the majority of the Republican Party, but there is a slice of the Republican electorate that has that view. It's called putting what you believe to be best for the country ahead of what you believe to be best for your political party. And the question is, how big a slice of the electorate is it? Um, one of my friends knows Nikki Haley is not going to win, but he's going through the motions. He's going to vote for her in the primary, assuming she's still in it by the time that he votes. And, um, if it doesn't go that way, then, uh, Trump is not going to be the guy. Here's an interview also from MSNBC

with a New Hampshire Republican who voted Trump twice but says that that is not happening again. People who are say that they plan to support her. You hear a mix of voters that are unlikely allies. I consider myself a traditional Republican. Twenty six year old Joseph Mueller is planning to vote for Nikki Haley in Tuesday's New Hampshire primary. Policy-wise, I am more in line with Haley. But the law school student and self-described moderate conservative says his support is driven by another candidate.

I'm thrilled to be back in the great state of New Hampshire. Right now Nikki Haley is clearly the one that has the best chance of defeating Trump. And that's your top priority, defeating Trump. That's that's my top priority. The polling since Donald Trump's historic win in Iowa shows the former president leading by double digits in New Hampshire, but facing a tougher challenge from his former U.N. ambassador. I voted for him twice and I was just humiliated when I saw that the guy I voted for, the way he handled himself after he lost. We need a new. By the way he handled himself after he lost. By the way, it's funny when it listen, this seems like a perfectly nice guy.

And he's, of course, come around to the logic of saying, I'm not voting for Trump again. That was crazy. But when Trump spends the entire summer before the 2020 election telling you exactly how he's going to behave after the election and then he does it and you go, I was shocked by what he did. All right. Generation of conservative leader. Mueller is a key part of the coalition of voters. Haley has been trying to build from conservatives open to a new party leader and anti-Trump Republicans to undeclared or independent voters who in New Hampshire are legally allowed to participate in the Republican primary. All right. So you get it.

A bunch of people who support Nikki Haley but won't support Trump. Obviously, from our perspective, the hope would be that that slice is big enough that it could be the difference maker for Joe Biden in states like Pennsylvania, Michigan, Arizona, Georgia, etc. Tonight we'll get some very useful data. Trump's going to win tonight. Again, I don't see any way when you look at the polling of thinking Nikki Haley will win, Trump's going to win.

But the question of by how much and the question of and where do Nikki Haley supporters go next? Those are the questions whose answers will be significantly informative for what's to come in November. Former Democratic candidate and a Democratic primary candidate, Andrew Yang, is endorsing Dean Phillips for the Democratic nomination. You might say, David, I didn't think there was a Democratic primary going on. There isn't. But if there were, there's a sort of pantomime of one in which Dean Phillips and Marianne Williamson are running against Joe Biden. Andrew Yang spoke yesterday, endorsed Dean Phillips and

asked her his dear friend Marianne Williamson to drop out. Andrew Yang calling for Marianne Williamson to end her campaign. Marianne doesn't like it. Let's listen to what Andrew Yang said. Then I will tell you what Marianne doesn't like it. Let's listen to what Andrew Yang said. Then I will tell you what Marianne Williamson said. Things that Americans expect and deserve. I ask you to join us in challenging the true enemy. The true enemy is the political establishment that does not care about our families and communities and media cabal that will suppress or demonize anyone who wants to change things on behalf of the people of this country.

Mary Ann Dean is our best chance to change things. I am looking forward to serving in his administration and I hope that you will join us. There it is. Calling for Mary Ann to end her campaign, endorse Dean Phillips and join in what he believes is their best chance. Mary Ann Williamson not happy putting out a tweet on Twitter or as we now know them, excretions on X. Wow, Andrew Yang, the days of a woman stepping aside on the assumption that a man can do a better job are over, deeply disappointed in you guys. And the answer is no. Now, statistically speaking, if you want to beat Joe Biden in the primary, I get where you come away with the idea that

Dean Phillips is the best chance. If we look at, for example, New Hampshire polling, we see that it's Phillips 16 and Williamson five. Based on those numbers, it certainly seems like Dean Phillips has the better chance in an American research poll. It's Phillips 32 in New Hampshire and Williamson three. If you look more generally at national primaries, you've got Phillips three and Williamson two in a Redfield and Wilton strategies poll. Where else is Marianne Williamson on this? In a Harris X messenger poll, she is leading Phillips nine to four. So, I mean, listen, on average, Dean Phillips is doing better

than Marianne Williamson. Does should she be the one to get out instead of him? I don't know. You could make Marianne Williamson could make the case, Dean, if you get out of all of your support will come to me and I'm better positioned to defeat Joe Biden for whatever reason. Now, the reality is, if we want to operate in the real world, no matter which of them steps aside, Joe Biden is going to win the primary. There's not even a real primary. And I'm not saying that as something I'm cheerleading or attacking. It just when you have an incumbent president, you don't run a real primary. Democrats do it. Republicans do it. And so it all kind of seems an exercise in futility. If we want to maximize our impact,

it should be about what can we get from Biden in a second term? We've gotten quite a bit from him in the first term, which I'll talk about later on in the program. And that's where we are. So I don't know that Mary Ann is the one that should drop out. Dean Phillips could also drop out. Neither of them stands a chance. And just as a reminder for people saying, David, why won't you interview Marianne Williamson? We invited her onto the program for any duration interview she wanted and her press person said no. So that's where we are on the Marianne interview. We'll take a very quick break and follow up with so much more right after this. compelling is they're geared towards entrepreneurs who want to turn some kind of side business into a full time business because oxygen will incorporate your small business for you while

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makeup, soaking wet and dripping, but slurring very, very much struggling to put together sentences. This was in Laconia, New Hampshire. We streamed this one live and it was actually difficult to watch. Listen to this completely deranged, futile attempt at making a sentence in the English language. This is really, really tough to watch, which is incapable of solving even the smallest, smallest problem, the simplest of problems we can no longer solve. We can't do anything. We are an institute and a powerful death penalty. We will put this on. We did what on earth, which is incapable of solving even the soul's problem. We are an institute in a powerful death penalty. We will put this on. It doesn't mean anything in the English language. And people stand there

like this is normal, difficult to listen to the entire thing as sweat poured through Trump's caked on burnt umber bronzer, uh, QAnon theme music playing and Trump completely garbling the teleprompter speech with that creepy voice in bizarre altered syntax. Trump saying already that he will deny the results of the 2024 election. And the only way they're going to win, in my opinion, is if they cheat. There it is. The only way they're going to win, in my opinion, is if they cheat. There it is. The only way they're going to win, in my opinion, is if they cheat. At another point that really raised cognitive questions, Trump using shooting

sounds like ding, ding, swing, whoosh, boom to describe apparently the Iron Dome and again, looking extraordinarily unstable and disoriented. This is just getting really difficult. These are not muscle guys here. They're muscle guys up here. And they calmly walk to a seat. Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. They've only got 17 seconds to figure this whole thing out. Right.

Well, OK. Missile launch. Pshew. Boom. Pshe out. Right. Okay. Missile launch. Pushing boom. That's it's machine boom. Machine boom. This is not a normal political event. And I was actually worried when Trump went into that description that he was going to reveal classified information useful to our adversaries. Fortunately, I don't think machine boom is going to be particularly useful to China in figuring out how that iron dome works. As scary as Trump's performance was notable that the rally was plagued, plagued by hecklers.

And I want to talk about that next. You know, one of the things that was very different about Donald Trump's final rally in New Hampshire before tonight's primary, this was in Laconia, New Hampshire, which Trump at one point called it Laconia. It's as if it were Hebrew almost was that I've never seen a Trump rally plagued by this many hecklers and protesters. And Trump doesn't like it. Trump gets visibly irritated, sweating even more, getting even more orange. If you can imagine as this was taking place. I don't know how they got in. I don't know the back story of any of this, but it's certainly an interesting thing to see.

Take a look at the fascists, by the way. Those are the people that are a danger to the country. But never forget, our enemies want to take away my freedom because I will never let them take away your freedom. So the person starts heckling and Trump, people start booing and Trump just stops. All right. So heckler number one trumps a little bit irritated. Trump then heckled again when coming back to the microphone, looking increasingly agitated. Thank you very much.

Thank you. Those are great people. I was also honored. She's back. She's back. And listen, guys, I know half the comments last night were about how it looks like Trump's wearing clown makeup and how the face paint is just so distracting. I'm with you. I'm with you. But we're talking about the hecklers here. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. That's beautiful. I was also honored. This is very important because I was also she's going home now. Where have you been, darling? You know, we don't have that like we used to. We used to have it all

the time. Yeah. All right. So then yet another one, yet another one of these. These numbers. How about these numbers in the new Redfield Wilton poll? It's Trump 72, Haley nine in Nevada. All right. And then now a protester starts getting taken out by law enforcement. All right. So bye bye to that one. And then lastly, just this is just a really scary moment. The other moment where someone notably shouted out was they said, free the Jay Sixers, meaning just stop the process of law and order and let accused criminals go.

And Trump says we will really scary. By the way, where we go, when we go, all is a QAnon chant. That's what you heard there. Trump smiles. And says, we will. This is the party that claims to be about law and order. This is the party that claims to be about supporting and defending law enforcement. And Trump's plan, whether it's doable or not, I don't know. Trump's plan is to just let him go. Let the alleged rioters go pardon the ones that have already been convicted and sentenced. How exactly is he going to do that? We don't have an answer, but the fact that he plans to try should scare anybody who

claims to care about due process, respecting the justice system and law and order, which they claim to, but not when it's inconvenient to them. Super scary final rally for Trump before tonight's election. Also, we've reached a new low in this Republican primary. We have reached the point in the Republican primary where Donald Trump is challenging his opponents to a dementia test. I'm not kidding. Donald Trump now in the wake of a scary cognitive issue over the weekend where he talked about Nikki Haley being responsible for January 6th security in D.C., he now during an

interview with Fox News yesterday challenged Nikki Haley to a dementia test and says that he would do better than her, which is a particularly interesting moment because if he would do the test basically is you have dementia or you don't. And so by saying he would do better, I guess he's saying he thinks Nikki Haley has dementia to some degree. It's a very strange thing. Here it is. And how we are at this point in the primary where the candidates are challenging each other to dementia tests. This is really, really wacky stuff. So Nikki Haley says now she has the two person race that she's always wanted. She has been coming after you strongly in the past few days. It's worked both ways. And you've come

after her as well. She she keeps bringing up your age lately. What do you say about that? Well, I think I'm a lot sharper than her. I would do this. I would sit down right now and take an aptitude test and it would be my result against her result. And she's not going to win. I could even come close to winning. She won't come close to winning. I mean, I think what Trump is saying is she would do worse than he does on a dementia or brain injury screening test, which that's the first time I've ever heard that said about Nikki Haley. In fact, when I heard the word cognitive, you know, I've taken two of them now. I took one with Doc Ronnie, who's now a fantastic,

you know, White House doctor and a fantastic congressman from Texas, Admiral, the White House doctor, Jackson, Ronnie Jackson. And he's now a great congressman from Texas. I took one then and I took one recently. I think the result was announced and it was I aced it twice. Why Trump took another cognitive test recently? We still don't know. But I would say that, you know, I've actually called for a cognitive test for anybody running for president because so has Nikki. I mean, listen, they both called for it, I guess. Just sit down and take the dementia test. Republicans are challenging each other to dementia tests. That's where they are in the process of selecting their nominee. In case you were wondering, as deranged as it gets and I'll tell you what, bring on the

dementia tests. I would like to see it. I would like to see if it's true that Nikki Haley would struggle to score as well as Trump on the test. We'll take a quick break. Congressman Ro Khanna will join us next. We will later hear from Elise Stefanik. It's going to be quite a show. If you're like me and I know so many of you are just like me, you hate the sticking and the rubbing that comes with traditional underwear. I'm sure most gentlemen in my audience know what I'm talking about. Our sponsor, Sheath Underwear, solves the problem. They have a patented ergonomic underwear design,

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Valley. Congressman, it's great to have you on. You know, we are increasingly seeing these two competing narratives about the context of the 2024 presidential election. Maybe we'll start there and work down to some of the legislation that's going on. One story is when the economy, when looking at these important five or six metrics, unemployment, inflation, stock market, GDP, right. You look at these basic metrics. It looks good. And presidents tend to get reelected historically when the economy looks like this. That's one story.

The other story is it was easy in August to say the polling isn't really telling us too much yet, but it's almost February. And in a majority of these hypothetical general election polls, Joe Biden's not only losing to Donald Trump, he's losing to other potential Republicans as well. Seemingly competing stories. How do you see it? Well, I think we have to have a better performance on the economy. We're down 20 to 25 points. Even if you don't believe the head to head polls or there's some discrepancy there, the polling has been pretty consistent that the president is down 20 to 25 points on the economy. Now, in other words, people's perception of how he's handling it,

people's perception of how he's handling it, that they prefer Donald Trump by 20 to 25 points. Now, the question is why? Some of it is the cost of living, right? I mean, I was talking to a friend of mine yesterday. She said that it costs $30 a pound for ribeye steak and that 10 years ago, it used to cost $5 to $10 a pound. And now she's buying New York steak, doesn't like it as much,

but has to tighten the belt around groceries. And you've had prices increase for rent and you've had prices increase for child care. And people are borrowing money, which is telling the story of her mother-in-law who needed to borrow $10,000 for some cancer treatment that wasn't fully covered by the co-pay. So I think you talk to average Americans and they say it's too expensive to live in America, that our wages have gone up, but not dramatically and not as high, not as fast as the cost of living. And this deals with a structural problem of the middle class and working class feeling that they've fallen behind. And I think that that was exacerbated during covid and during the inflationary period. And it reminded people that their lives are still difficult.

So then in terms of what this means for the 2024 election, is it time to be worried? Is it time to panic? Or do you think that ultimately this is this is going to be OK because of the bigger picture about the economy? I don't think panic is ever a good strategy for running a race, but I think it's time to be clear eyed about this being a tough fight. And I would not run a morning in America, everything is great, let's vote, thank you, Joe Biden, for four years of passing legislation election. I would say,

we understand that you're going through tough times. We understand that it's still hard to make ends meet. Here are the things we did to prioritize the working class. In my first term, we brought massive investment in infrastructure to create good paying construction jobs. We brought back some factories. Here are the three things I'm going to do in a second term to prioritize working class Americans. That's going to mean we're finally going to get a minimum wage increase. We're going to have universal child care. We're going to make sure that we have housing, build many more units and make housing more affordable. I picked three main things and then contrasted with Donald Trump, who we know what he's going to do because he did it in this first term. He did massive tax cuts to the corporations and the wealthy. But I think we need a choice

election on the economy and we need a few forward looking agenda. What we're going to do to help working in middle class Americans. Speaker 1 I had your colleague Eric Swalwell on a few weeks ago, maybe closer to two months ago. And he said at that point, he thought Republicans in the House were going to impeach Joe Biden no matter what the inquiry turns up. The idea being to create a sort of parody where it will be two candidates who have been impeached, an attempt to level the playing field, which maybe they believe will will help them in November. Over the last month, I believe that two at the time over the last month, they've been far quieter.

Occasionally Maria Bartiromo will say, hey, what evidence do you have? And they'll say, you know, we're looking for the evidence. They don't really have any evidence. Is your sense from talking to your colleagues on the other side of the aisle that they remain committed to push forward with this thing or are they going to let it quietly die? I think they're divided when they're divided. I'm on the oversight committee, which Comer leads and wonder about it because they just haven't done that well, objectively.

I mean, they've had their own witnesses say there's not enough there there to impeach. And so they and there are about 20, 30 people in their own caucus who don't want to vote for impeachment. They're in swing districts that candidly they saw what happened to Democrats when we voted to impeach Trump twice. It was the right thing to do, but it was not politically helpful. It actually in polling strengthened Trump after the impeachment. And here there's no legitimacy. So I think that if I had to guess, it's going to be tough for them to get 20, 30 holdouts. And my sense is they won't actually impeach, but will just keep this hearings going to create a cloud of smoke of Hunter Biden and potential impropriety.

I also think candidly that the better the poll numbers are looking for Trump and Trump versus Biden, the more they're going to want to run on the economy, which is a far better campaign for them than to relitigate whether Biden should be impeached for January 6th. That seems to be without question true. I want to talk a little bit about the op ed you wrote in The New York Times about A.I. We've interviewed a bunch of people on the program about A.I., some like, for example, Eliezer Yudkowsky, who believes this is so dangerous that all of it needs to be stopped right now.

Total moratorium. This could quite literally kill humans, kill humanity. On the other side, you have a number of different thoughtful views, I think, about any technology brings with it risks and possible downsides. But stopping a technology rarely has worked in history, and the approach should be regulation and limiting the downsides while maximizing the upsides. What do you think should be done in terms of a regulatory framework in order to achieve the biggest upside and minimize the downside? Well, first of all, it's important to understand, in my view, what AI is right now. And that is that

generative AI basically is the ability to detect patterns and complete sentences. Now, what's different than what your iPhone has been able to do or Google has been able to do for years, generative AI figured out that you could put hordes of data. You can basically put the entire internet into this pattern detection. And before that you had to put very limited data. So it wasn't some massive advancing thinking. It was just the ability to have massive amounts of data.

Generalized AI would be an AI that actually could comprehend beyond pattern detection. I think we're far away from that. And remember, Immanuel Kant tried to figure out how human thinking works, and we're still trying to figure it out. I think the idea that AI has modeled human thinking is naive. And Noam Chomsky had a great op-ed in The New York Times explaining it for people who want to get into more depth. So I think this sense that AI is going to outwit human creativity and intelligence, we're at least a long way away from there. But even general AI has dangers.

And the two places we have to have the biggest regulatory framework is what are we putting into it? Because if you're putting garbage into it, you're going to get garbage out. And so what are we doing in terms of misinformation and bias? And are we having some sanitized data sets? And the second thing is, if this has predictive ability and the ability to do road tasks, what does it mean for labor and jobs? And that's what I wrote up in The New York Times. You can either have this AIB enhancing augmenting.

I mean, you could use it before interviewing me and it may give you some topics to explore or you could. All these questions were written by chat GPT. You know, I'm kidding. I'm getting. But no, no, we that that I think you're getting to the real question, which is there's a really good study which found for people who are in what we might call knowledge jobs. This may be a really great thing which allows them to significantly increase what's often defined as productivity.

And I can think of a whole bunch of ways in which these tools could do the jobs of a social media manager or whatever. Right. So someone like me in such a position, I to me, it seems like mostly upside. The same study found that for certain individuals in other types of jobs, it actually could be a very bad thing because it could make them unnecessary or irrelevant. And the effect will be to widen income inequality. I'm guessing that's a concern you share. Yes, and I guess the question is, does it have to? You know, for example, when we call a customer service support, how often do you press zero, zero, zero, zero, saying get me to a human voice? I'm almost fighting with the phone system.

That, in my view, is a case of often excessive automation where you'd probably be better off having human representatives augmented by technology instead of being totally displaced. And so I think the question is, how do you make sure that the workers themselves, whether they be writers of Hollywood scripts, truck drivers, customer support, are having a say in the use of this technology in their own roles, in the credentialing of this technology? And you don't just have Harvard and Stanford MBAs saying, we want to help the bottom line and eliminate payroll and do so at the expense of a company's culture and long-term performance. And that's why I called in the AI essay in the New York Times for worker participation in AI decision- making in what would happen to people before

their extensive layoffs and worker participation in the profits. I think what AI does is just exacerbate or highlight the challenge of of capitalism and having workers have a say in capitalism. So on the regulation question, do you want companies and workers to decide how this goes forward without imposing government regulation? Or do you think there needs to be some regulatory involvement? There needs to definitely be regulatory involvement. I would have regulatory involvement on safety and what AI's data sets are.

And then in the labor context, I would say public companies that are making decisions of workforce downsizing or elimination or transformation need to have a workforce committee participating in that decision making. And I would have federal tax incentives to give workers a share of the company profits, like Sears Roebuck used to do for many, many years before the sort of corporate takeover culture of the 1980s. So I definitely think on labor law, there need to be regulations. And I would defer to workers' sense of safety and requirements. So in the truck driver's case, I did support the California legislation saying there should be a human on board trucks over 10,000 pounds. And in close

calls like that, I'd say, let's listen to the workers about what jobs they think are needed. I think it's insulted to the working class or unions to believe they do make make up work or fake jobs. Speaker 1 I want to talk a little bit about immigration. There is the perception among many that something really jarring happened the day Joe Biden became president on immigration policy and that what's happening today is a 180 compared to what was happening under Donald Trump. A deeper look shows that this is certainly not the case, but the perception is what matters

here and there is certainly an appetite to see Joe Biden do something at the border or with immigration or with DACA or with overstayed visas to give the sense that he is taking it seriously in a way that some voters don't think that he is doing. What do you think is the lowest hanging fruit on the immigration issue that you would like to see done? First of all, the polling showed that the support for immigration actually went up under Donald Trump because his policies were so draconian and now have fallen under Joe Biden. As a baseline, I think the Democratic Party has to draw on the

traditions of John F. Kennedy, Mario Cuomo, Barack Obama, and make the case that immigrants enrich America. As cliched as that sounds, we don't do that enough. And on the other hand, you have rhetoric that immigrants are poisoning the blood of America. And so if you have one-sided critique blaming immigrants for a decline in people's economic living standards, and the other side scared of our own shadow to make the case for immigrants, you can understand why the polling would be skewed against us. But I do think there are real issues at the border. I'm not going to dismiss that. What we need is what the president's proposed, but he needs to propose it more loudly and clearly, more funding for border patrol agents, more immigration judges and attorneys so we can

quickly adjudicate legitimate claims for non-legitimate claims, a clear process of being able to work in this country once you're here so you're not forced to just be on the public goal when you want to work, and an increase in legal immigration so that people are able to come here and contribute without having to go through the treacherous journey and and break laws. You know, one of the things that I don't often hear discussed, particularly by those who oppose immigration of all kinds, is some kind of accounting for what is being described for some as the birth rate crisis.

And there's a book I bought I haven't yet read. It's called Empty Planet, the shock of global population decline. People like Elon Musk and others have talked about, hey, you know what? There's a whole bunch of countries where you're going to see population declines. Population is about to peak, but then population will start going down in a traditional neoclassical economic world. Growth comes from people working and producing stuff. And you would think that some of the folks who are opposed to immigration would realize if the population starts to decline, this is going to be an economic problem. So I find it very interesting that if you are concerned about the birth rate, as many of these folks claim to be an economic problem. So I find it very interesting that if you are concerned about

the birth rate, as many of these folks claim to be, you would be thinking of other ways to continue increasing the population of the country since that's where economic growth comes from. And yet they just say, no, we've got too many people here. They can't keep coming in. Have you given some thought to the impact of peak population and subsequent declines in Western nations and what it will do economically? Well, I think you make an important case that a nation for economic growth that needs people and needs productivity and they need young people and that immigrants have often been that source for the United States, both in terms of their ambition, in terms of their work ethic, in terms of their ability to do jobs where we have massive shortages, and that if we have appropriate

laws protecting unions and protecting workers and preventing against corporate abuse, then they actually won't have a decline in wages. And one of the reasons to do this, it's getting into a bit of economics, but when workers come here who are immigrants, okay, you have an increase in the supply of labor, but you also have an increase in the demand of labor because those workers are spending things in a community. And most economists have looked at it and say that the increase in demand outstrips the increase in supply under good labor laws. And you don't have a depressive wage effect. So I think we have to make these kind of arguments that that immigrants do enrich the United States and that that we should have an orderly and humane process for how it happens. But a lot of

this is not about economics. It's about culture. And there's this fear that, you know, we're becoming an America that is culturally different, which is why I think we also have to talk about the patriotism of immigrants. My parents used to take me every year to the Constitutional Independence Hall and the Liberty Bell as we would have relatives visit. And, you know, I think many immigrants are like that. Speaker 1 We've been speaking with Democratic Congressman Ro Khanna, who represents California 17th District. Always appreciate your time and insights. Speaker 4 Thank you. Well, I greatly appreciate your voice.

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It really seemed that nobody, nobody in this Republican Party was going to defend or try to explain away Trump's bizarre cognitive gaffe, where he repeatedly blamed Nikki Haley for failing to provide adequate security in Washington, D.C. on January 6th. Clearly it was Nancy Pelosi that Trump was thinking about, but he couldn't get it out. It was Nikki Haley, this Nikki Haley that, OK, nobody's going to to to defend that. Right. Right. Right.

Wrong. Here is video of Republican Congresswoman Elise Stefanik, one of the most despicable brown nosing Trump suck ups who just lies uncontrollably, uncontrollable liar saying that no, no, no. Here's what Trump meant. Nikki Haley relies on Democrats like Nancy Pelosi for everything. So in a sense, Nikki Haley was connected to security on January 6th. It's as absurd and patently vapid as it sounds. But at least the panic is willing to debase herself.

That's the thing she's shown. Trump, you know, DeSantis talked about willing to kiss Trump's ring. At least the panic is willing to kiss the ring. Listen to this. Speaker 4 That isn't a mix up. The reality is Nikki wasn't Speaker. Nikki Haley is relying on Democrats just like Nancy Pelosi to try to have a desperate showing in New York, in New Hampshire. But he was talking

about January 6. Trump has not lost a step. He is a stronger candidate, stronger than he is today than he was in 2016. And he was in 2020. This is it's like talking to a delusional person. Compare that to Joe Biden's weakness. She knows what she's saying is a lie. She knows it's untrue. I'm going to try to interpret the argument she's making. Trump says Nikki Haley failed to provide security on January 6th, 2021. It's Nikki Haley's fault that the riots got out of control. Oh, that's a cognitive gaffe. He obviously meant meant Nancy Pelosi. Elise Stefanik says no. Nikki Haley is relying on Democrats to help her win the New Hampshire primary in twenty twenty four. So Trump was right about what he said.

But wait a second. Trump was talking about January 6th, 2021. Doesn't have anything to do with Democrats voting in New Hampshire tomorrow. It has everything to do with what was happening in D.C. on January 6th, 2021. At least if it goes, no, no, no, no, no. We know Nikki Haley is dependent on Democrats to win this primary so that what Trump said was correct. What what the Lincoln Project tweeted that that video of Elise Stefanik is what selling your soul for MAGA looks like. And just as a reminder, Donald Trump's statement about this was abundantly clear. It was abundantly clear that that's not at all what what he was referring to. I'll just play it here for you once. Just as a reminder, nothing about New Hampshire Democrats, not at all. They never report the crowd on January six.

You know, Nikki Haley, Nikki Haley, Nikki Haley, you know, they do. You know, they destroyed all of the information, all of the evidence, everything deleted and destroyed all of it, all of it because of lots of things like Nikki Haley is in charge of security. We offered her 10,000 people, soldiers, National Guard, whatever they want. They turned it down. They don't want to talk about that. The worst I have ever seen Trump during a rally and Elise Stefanik defends it.

She sold her soul for MAGA. I wonder what she'll get out of it. Quite frankly, at the end of the day, I don't even know that it's worth it to her. Who will be the Republican vice presidential running mate to Donald Trump? Increasingly a question. Donald Trump claims that he already selected the individual. That's what he said during a Fox News town hall a couple weeks ago. Who would be in the running for a vice president? Well, I can't tell you that really. I

mean, I know who it's going to be. Give us a hint. I'll give you we'll do another show sometime. What about any of the people who you've run against? Would you be open to mending fences with? Oh, I will. I will. I've already started like Chris. All right. So the point here is Trump says he's already selected the person who it's going to be. Now of course, Trump lies all the time. It may not be true that Trump has selected the person already. It may be true that Trump has thought about someone but hasn't told them. It's also possible that Trump has chosen but is simply going to change his mind.

We just don't know. But here is Donald Trump Jr. This is super scary. Interviewed on Newsmax and says Tucker Carlson is someone being considered to be Trump's vice president. If you thought that another Trump presidency couldn't possibly be more damaging to the country than Trump's first four years, I have four words for you. Vice President Tucker Carlson. President, could you see your father running with Ron DeSantis? I asked him that question over the summer and he didn't rule it out. Could you see Ron DeSantis? How do you? It's hard. You know, people do that. Like, you know, I would do whatever

I could to make sure it wasn't Nikki Haley. But, you know, like a Ron DeSantis. Could I see? You're never going to rule out someone that is, you know, a leading contender. It doesn't mean that's who you go with. I could see other people. That would be great. I'd love to see, you know, a J.D. Vance. I'd love to see a Tucker Carlson. I'd love to see, you know, people who are just principally, you know, in alignment as well as, like, aggressive.

You actually need a fighter. The Republicans in Washington, D.C. are weak. You can have the House, the Senate, and they'll still roll over. Don, is your dad serious about Tucker Carlson? Are those rumors serious? I would imagine. You know, listen, that clearly would be on the table, right? I mean, they're very friendly.

I think they agree on virtually all of these things. They certainly agree on stopping the never-ending wars. And so, you know, I would love to see that happen. And, you know, that would certainly be a that happen. And, you know, that would certainly be a contender. Ben Carson, those rumors legit. That's great. I mean, what a what a great what a great American. All right. So everybody else, oh, this is a good person. That's a good person. The strangest thing about the entire Tucker Carlson idea is that it would really be a play to the most kind of brazen political opportunism in the sense that

Tucker has made it clear he doesn't actually like Donald Trump from the leaked text messages associated with the Fox News Dominion lawsuit. We learned that Tucker Carlson said that he vehemently despises Trump and anxiously looked forward to when Trump never had to be spoken about again. And yet he still is now hanging out with Trump. And it is being discussed that since they're so friendly, he's potentially going to be a vice president. I believe that Tucker does hate Trump. I believe that Tucker was not lying in those text messages. It's Tucker's opportunism and desire, this kind of atavistic desire to be associated with those in power that keeps him around Donald Trump.

And the funny thing is, Trump also doesn't really care whatever it is that Tucker texted. If Tucker is willing to suck up to Trump now, that's fine. And this is what it means to have friends in Trump's world. It's we agree to stop attacking each other because we perceive that we can use the other person. Trump may see Tucker as someone he can use and Tucker may see Trump as someone he can use to maybe end up as the vice president of the United States. As scary as the idea of another Trump four years are, the idea of vice president Tucker Carlson should also really, uh, uh, scare us and motivate us to make sure that that absolutely does not happen.

Now do I think Tucker's the most likely pick? No, but there are people who write to me, they say Tucker's the obvious pick or Vivek is the obvious pick or Carrie Lake is the obvious pick. I don't think there's any chance it's Carrie Lake. Carrie Lake's running for Senate. I just don't see that as a really a likely scenario. There was talk of Kristi Noem, for example, maybe except she has been so completely out of the public spotlight that it seems a little hard to imagine that Trump would do that because much of Trump's decision making is guided by what's been on TV recently.

So I don't have any guesses. But what I am very scared of is that it will be Tucker Carlson. Let's hope it is not. We have a voicemail number that you can call anytime you want. That number is two one nine two David P. Here is a progressive saying my progressive friends don't know why should they vote for Joe Biden? Please help me figure out an answer. This is Lily from Kentucky.

I have a lot of friends who voted for Biden in 2020, but they don't want to vote for him in 2024 because they feel this platform hasn't been progressive enough. What are some of the best policy accomplishments or arguments I can make and show them to help to convince them to vote for him again in 2024? Thank you for taking my voicemail. Well, listen, this is a really good question when progressives say, but why? Why would I vote for Joe Biden? What is it that we should talk about? It's actually the difficulty is not in finding accomplishments. The difficulty is in knowing which ones will resonate with whoever you're talking to. But in no particular order, some of the things that come to mind to me,

Chips and Science Act, the one of the things that left and right seem to agree upon is we need to do more domestic manufacturing. Among so many other great things, the Chips and Science Act bolsters domestic manufacturing. It's U.S. based jobs that pay well. The Inflation Reduction Act, which does so many different things, including bolstering major green energy investment. I think progressives like that. I'm a progressive and I certainly like it. Capping prescription drug prices at two thousand dollars per year for seniors on Medicare

doesn't matter. Million dollars a year in medications you might need no matter what your out of pocket cap is. Two thousand dollars. That's a really big deal. The infrastructure bill, the covid vaccine rollout. Biden has done more student loan forgiveness than any president in history requesting that cannabis be rescheduled to no longer be schedule one. It hasn't happened yet. It's in process. I'm hoping it does. We've been talking for a decade

about one of the major first steps in doing what needs to be done with cannabis is getting it off of that schedule. One having cannabis and heroin on the same list doesn't make any sense. Joe Biden has directed that to be changed. It's now going through the process to the extent that presidents guide the economy and they do to some degree. Right. I mean, when we say gas prices, it's not not up to the president. President has a little bit of an effect. Economic numbers. Presidents have some effect to the extent that presidents guide the economy presiding over record low unemployment sustained longer than we've seen it before. This low, dramatically reduced inflation record after record in the stock market. That is a major thing, especially if your expectation was

that the economy would crater. Biden got us out of a 20 year quagmire in Afghanistan. Was it a mess? It was a mess. Would it have been a mess under Trump? Of course it would have. But we're out and we needed to be out after 20 damn years there. The American rescue plan dramatically reduced child poverty and we saw increases in child tax credits, which I think are a great thing and a progressive perspective on how we should be doing taxation, gave Medicare the power to negotiate drug prices. We saw insulin capped at thirty five dollars a month. Ten of the most used drugs for Medicare recipients are now being negotiated as big pharma companies were forced to come to the table and negotiate those prices.

And what's difficult is there is so much that Joe Biden has done. And think for a second what Republicans have offered during this time. Obstruction, hesitation to get rid of George DeSantos, who obviously obviously should have been gone on day one after we found out all the things he lied about, focusing on, quote, men and women's sports, focusing on lists of books that shouldn't be allowed in schools and taking power away from professional educators to decide what and how should things be taught and with which materials. Think of the contrast to me as a progressive. When I look at what Joe Biden has done over the last three plus years, it's difficult to even have a full conversation because there are so many things.

So I hope some of those accomplishments are useful. There really has been something for everyone in this administration. Is it God's gift to progressivism? It is not, at least not yet. Is it an administration that on paper has accomplished as much as any of the last five, six, seven administrations? It probably is. And so if your progressive friends are unsure, have them call into the show. I'd love to talk to them. We have a tremendous bonus show for you today. Producer Pat will be joining me on the bonus show. We will talk about a Supreme Court decision which will allow the Biden administration to remove razor wire on the U.S.-Mexico border. Why does he want to do this? Why are right wingers furious? We'll answer those questions.

New York City plans to wipe out two billion dollars in medical debt for about half a million residents. The program is an interesting one. We will discuss that. And lastly, Florida Republicans have nixed a plan to have taxpayers foot the bill for Trump's legal bills. That is a great decision. Why did this Florida Republican go in this direction rather than the other? Well, we'll tell you all about it on the bonus show. You can sign up at join Pacman dot com. The coupon code is save democracy 24. And I really hope to see you tonight for live election results in New Hampshire, starting at 7 p.m. Eastern, 4 p.m. Pacific. I will be live on YouTube. I will be live on Twitch and I will be live on Facebook. See you on the bonus show. See you tonight. We'll be back tomorrow.