The David Pakman Show - 12/5/24: Trump melts down over failed nomination, Biden considering blanket pardons

Episode Date: December 5, 2024

-- On the Show: -- Sam Wolfson, features writer and editor at The Guardian, joins David to discuss his recent article "Don’t underestimate the Rogansphere. His mammoth ecosystem is Fox News for young people" -- President Joe Biden is reportedly considering preemptive blanket pardons for a number of Democrats who will be targeted by the incoming Trump administration -- Donald Trump melts down as yet another nomination implodes -- Megyn Kelly interviews Pete Hegseth, Donald Trump's nominee for Secretary of Defense, and it does not go well -- CNN's Manu Raju asks Pete Hegseth whether he will commit to "not drinking on the job" if confirmed as Secretary of Defense -- Senator Richard Blumenthal claims that a number of Republican Senators have privately told him they will not support Pete Hegseth's nomination, which if true, means the nomination cannot succeed -- Republican Florida Senator Rick Scott wants to ask questions about the allegations against Pete Hegseth, but tells CNN's Jake Tapper that Hegseth should not lift the non-disclosure agreement preventing an alleged victim from speaking -- Democratic Senator John Fetterman says he'd considering voting to confirm Ron DeSantis as Secretary of Defense on the condition that DeSantis admits that he wear shoe lifts to make him appear taller -- On the Bonus Show: South Korea's opposition parties move to impeach the president, Satanic Temple to offer religious program for elementary school students in Ohio, UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thomspon killed in targeted attack in NYC, much more... 👕 Cozy Earth: Code PAKMAN for 40% off at https://cozyearth.com/pakman 🩳 SHEATH Underwear: Code PAKMAN for 20% OFF at https://sheathunderwear.com/pakman 🤪 Doomlings: Use code PAKMAN for 15% OFF at https://doomlings.com/pakman 😁 Zippix Toothpicks: Code PAKMAN10 saves you 10% at https://zippixtoothpicks.com 👩‍❤️‍👨 Try the Paired App FREE for 7 days and get 25% OFF at https://paired.com/pakman 💵 Sponsored by Ridge Wallet: Get up to 47% off the best holiday gift at https://ridge.com/pakman 🖼️ Aura Frames: Use code PAKMAN for $35 OFF & free shipping at https://auraframes.com/pakman -- Become a Member: https://davidpakman.com/membership -- Become a Patron: https://www.patreon.com/davidpakmanshow -- TDPS Subreddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/thedavidpakmanshow -- Pakman Discord: https://davidpakman.com/discord -- David on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/davidpakmanshow -- Leave a Voicemail: (219)-2DAVIDP

Welcome everybody. We are talking about pardons increasingly, not only because Joe Biden pardoned his son, Hunter Biden, but because we now have some Republicans, including Marjorie Taylor green saying, I would like Trump to give me a blanket pardon. We'll talk about that tomorrow. The obvious question is if Marjorie Taylor green wants a pardon, why does she think she would need one? But we'll deal with that. The Biden administration is now discussing preemptive pardons for officials who might end up in the crosshairs of Donald Trump's revenge tour. Now, normally preemptive pardons raise some pretty significant red flags. They imply that you're guilty.

If you go out and say, I am issuing a blanket pardon for this particular person, the natural reaction would be to say, well, what did they do that anyone thinks they need a pardon? And this can really undermine public trust in government and generate a lot of other problems. When Donald Trump is openly planning to weaponize the government to punish his enemies, which is what he has run on now for over a year, it might be the perfect time to break out what is admittedly an extraordinary measure. Now, it's not paranoia. It's not a desire to circumvent the law that has triggered these discussions in the Biden White House. It's Trump's nominations. And it's the threat that has been so clearly spelled out for everybody to see in the public. Donald Trump has

selected Kash Patel to be FBI director. Now we don't yet know whether cash is actually going to be confirmed, but this is not someone who's going to go and soberly push law and order and judicious use of investigative power. We know why Patel has been selected. He's been public that he has plans to go after people like Adam Schiff, Liz Cheney and others involved in holding Donald Trump accountable, failing to do so mostly. And now the revenge tour is going to start. Now the list of people that Biden is worried about is extensive. It includes Adam Schiff, who of course chaired

the house intelligence committee during Donald Trump's first impeachment. It includes Liz Cheney, a Republican who helped lead the January 6th committee and has been a target of Trump's ire and wrath ever since. Anthony Fauci is another potential target in his eighties. They want to see Fauci in prison. It's wild. He just has become the perennial scapegoat with anything related to health or the pandemic. And Donald Trump has already called for Liz Cheney and some others to be jailed. He casually said during the campaign, this person should be in prison and that person

should be in prison. Fau person should be in prison. Fauci has been the subject of endless conspiracy theories. None of this stuff is hypothetical. This is actually happening. When we talk tomorrow about Marjorie Taylor green's wish for a blanket pardon for herself, we are left to wonder who does she think is going to target her unless she did something wrong that she knows about, which we'll talk about. But we know who's going to target Adam Schiff and Fauci and Liz Cheney. They've told us that they want to do it. Now, we do have to consider the optics of this. The White House has to think carefully about how to approach this, because on the one hand, they are trying to protect officials who might face baseless but relentless investigations under Trump. They have good reason to believe that

that will happen. Now, on the other hand, issuing pardons now looks defensive. It could incriminate people who have committed no crime whatsoever. I don't think Fauci committed any crime. I don't think Liz Cheney committed any crime. I don't think Adam Schiff committed any crime. I don't know if Marjorie Taylor green committed a crime. She wants a pardon. Uh, and this is why with these possible Biden pardons, the beneficiaries aren't even asking for them. And some of the folks have actually sort of publicly opposed the idea. Adam Schiff, for example, said if Biden were to pardon him now, it seems it would seem defensive and unnecessary. So if we zoom out, these end of

administration pardons do happen all the time, but it is an unprecedented situation. Trump's return to the white house we know is going to be a real revenge tour. That is not law and order. Cash app Patel, other Trump loyalists, they aren't pretending that this is about justice. They want to punish Trump's enemies. They want to intimidate future dissenters. And that's their clearly stated goal. Even without getting anybody convicted, just being

targeted by a Trump DOJ could really devastate people financially. Legal fees for high profile investigations can be hundreds of thousands of dollars, even if you did nothing wrong. And so the preemptive pardon from Biden is sending the message. Don't even bother. Just don't, don't even get involved in this. Now, I think it is important to mention these blanket preemptive presidential pardons would only apply to federal charges. State charges are not covered at the same time. No one seems to think that Adam Schiff, Fauci or Liz Cheney have done anything wrong at all. Nevermind anything that would lead to any kind of state charges. So in this particular case, you all know I am extremely careful and judicious in how I want to see presidential pardon president

presidential pardons used. This is not just about protecting individuals in this particular case. How much am I worried about Adam Schiff specifically? I don't know. Not that much. I think he's going to be okay, but it is important to send a message that you can't just go and do a campaign on political retaliation and revenge and retribution come into power and then expect to get away with all of it.

The idea of the preemptive pardon from Biden is saying you're not going to now do the revenge tour. Trump has made it clear that he's coming after his enemies. Joe Biden is trying to do what he sees as the right thing on his way out. And the thing here that is very clear, there is no personal benefit to 80 something year old Biden to preemptively pardoning Adam Schiff. If anything, Biden is just exposing himself to criticism. So it's really important to consider the difference. Trump's pardons have been for cronies, individuals who he subsequently hired. There were business connections, all sorts of stuff wrapped up in it. There is no upside at

all to Biden to preemptively pardoning Liz Cheney or Anthony Fauci or Adam Schiff or the other people he's considering pardoning. And that only reinforces to me that Biden is genuinely trying to do the right thing. We could disagree. We could say he shouldn't have pardon power or this is the wrong time to use it. But there is no case you can make that this is Biden's rapacious hunger for personal gain because he is going to get widely panned if he does this much the same way that he's being criticized for his pardon of his own son. Let me know what you think. Should he do it? Should he not? I want to hear from you. Info at David Pakman dot com. Donald Trump's second presidential transition is shaping up exactly as you would expect a revolving door of scandal plagued nominees,

public embarrassments, and of course, Trump himself whining when it all starts to fall apart. The latest drama is that Trump's DEA chief nominee, Florida Sheriff Chad Chronister, has withdrawn. We talked about this yesterday on the world famous award-winning bonus show. Trump is not handling this well. The wall street journal, which I am not, I don't consider it a beauty, not a publication I'm exactly in love with the wall street journal reported that Chronister decided to bow out, citing the gravity of the responsibility, sort of like a weird, vague explanation. But the undercurrent of rumor is that Chronister was being targeted as not being MAGA enough. Trump couldn't just leave it as Chronister

decided to bow out. No, Trump hops on truth central to rant that the wall street journal is obnoxious, that it's unreadable and he has to get the last word in. And Trump's last word is he didn't bow out. I told him that it wasn't going to work. So this is Trump having to say he's in charge. He's the decider. No one does things to him. He does things to other people. So here's his message. Trump writes, the wall street journal is becoming more and more obnoxious and unreadable. Today's main headline is Trump's DEA pick pulls out in latest setback with all that's happening in the world. This is their number one story of the day. Besides, he didn't pull out. I pulled him out because I did not like what he said to my pastors

and other supporters. But more importantly, what's my latest setback? I just won the presidency of the United Shaysh. They haven't written a good story about me in years. Somebody over there ought to look at what they're doing. The only one worse than them is stupid China centric Forbes magazine. Trump, this is the epitome of Trump. Trump is more concerned about fealty to Mago world dogma than competence, qualifications or fitness for the job. And it really shows because Trump's transition team is a complete and total circus. Pick after pick after pick imploding under the weight of scandal. Pete Hegseth, his choice for defense secretary, endless allegations of drinking, chanting, kill all Muslims, sexual misconduct. Matt Gates dropped out of the running for AG because what a surprise. He's also knee

deep in allegations of sexual misconduct and drug use. Some of them involving underage girls. And we're not even getting into the questions around cash Patel, Robert F Kennedy jr. Tool C Gabbard, by the way, reporting is increasingly pointing to cash. Patel can't get confirmed to FBI director tool. See can't get confirmed to director of national intelligence. This isn't just bad luck. This isn't liberal attacks. This is a pattern that reflects Trump's inability to surround himself with competent, scandal free people. And in fact, it's lack of support from Republican senators that's putting these

nominations in question. If every Republican senator were on board, it wouldn't matter if the W uh, if the wall street journal says something Trump doesn't like or what democratic senators believe or think or want. If they had every Republican Senator on board, it wouldn't matter. So when it all blows up in his face, Trump responds the only way he knows how, which is he throws a tantrum and instead of addressing the very real issues with his picks, he lashes out at the media because they dare to report on yet another nomination failure.

Trump's transition is a disaster, but it's a disaster not because of the liberal media or democratic senators or Liz Cheney or voucher or whatever. The transition is a disaster because competence doesn't matter when making the picks. Uh, integrity doesn't matter when making the picks. Integrity doesn't matter when making the picks. It's loyalty to the MAGA brand that gets people nominated. And sometimes that backfires. Inevitably, it has been backfiring. And so Trump is left scrambling, as he always does, to blame anybody but himself.

In this case, in this case, the wall street journal is not the problem. Chad Chronister actually isn't the problem. Even though I disagree with him on a lot of policy, he's on paper qualified for this role. The problem here is Trump and his nominations. And my hope is that this continues happening to more of them. Make sure you are subscribed to the YouTube channel, youtube.com slash the David Packman show big show today. Quick break. We'll be right back. One of our sponsors today is cozy earth. Cozy earth has the highest quality luxury products for every room in your home, bed and bath clothing, candles, skincare, and more. They make great holiday gifts. Cozy Earth's goal is help you create a sanctuary within your home, a refuge from the demands of the outside world.

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com. Really appreciate everybody's support. All right. This is one of the funniest interviews that I have seen in an attempt to stop the flow of negative reporting about Donald Trump's secretary of defense nominee, Pete Hegseth. Hegseth decided to do a friendly interview with Megan Kelly. Remember when I went on Megan Kelly's show and she and Hogan Gidley, uh, double teamed me and it was just a complete and total waste of my time. Remember when I went on Megan Kelly's show and she and Hogan Gidley double teamed me

and it was just a complete and total waste of my time. Well, Pete Hegseth gets a different sort of treatment than I did when I went on Megan Kelly's show. This is the interview is funny. The interview is sad, but primarily the interview is a reminder that Hegseth has no business in the world being even nominated or considered for secretary of defense, nevermind being confirmed. Here is Pete not exactly convincing in saying he has no drinking problem. Listen to what he had to say.

You tell me whether you think this is convincing. First of all, um, I've never had a drinking problem. I don't know. No one's ever approached me and said, oh, you you should really look at getting help for a drink. Never. I've never sought counseling, never sought help. I've never sought help is not really proof that you don't need help. I respect and appreciate people who who do. But, you know, what do guys do when they come back from war? Oftentimes have some beers. You know, how do you deal with the demons you see on the battlefield? Sometimes it's with a bottle. Unfortunately, tragically, for too many guys, it's with the bottle and then it's depression and even worse suicide. I mean, he seems to actually be acknowledging that this is a problem, just not as bad a problem as it is for others who, for example, tragically take their own lives. We've got an epidemic of that in our country. Thank God, by the grace of God, I found my chapters of purpose that pulled me out of

that. I found in many ways, I found two things. My two J's, my Jenny, my wife, Jennifer, changed my life, saved me. There's just no doubt about it. And my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. First of all, I've never. So if you want to convince people you have no drinking problem, this is not exactly the answer that, that, that I would give. He sort of laughs a little bit, denies he has the problem, but then does say he did self-medicate with alcohol when he came back from war. But it wasn't as bad as what happened to some other people, not really convincing moments after claiming that the allegations are made up.

He then does say, oh, there are some kernels of truth, some kernels of truth. What you're seeing right now with me is the art of the smear. It is the classic art of the smear. Take whatever tiny kernels of truth and there are tiny, tiny ones in there and blow them up into a masquerade of a narrative about somebody that I am definitely not. And what they. So, so far we've got, he did come back and do a bunch of drinking, just not as much as some other people. And the allegations are based on kernels of truth, but he says they're exaggerated. So he's mostly admitting to the whole thing.

Ever quote, and we'll get into this too, are the legions of people from who I served with in combat, multiple tours, from the multiple veterans organizations that I very proudly ran, and I really want to get into that, and my time at Fox News.

They never asked the people closest to me. They never asked the people who were involved directly. And when they do, and I've got a list right here of people and Will Kane and my hosts at Fox News have come out. All the folks on Fox Friends have all come out and said, this is not Pete. And we've worked with Pete for 10 years, every single morning, every single day. They never asked those people. Yeah. And that's what a smear looks like. Yeah. They didn't speak to the couple of people who didn't have horrible stories to report about Pete Hegseth. Megyn Kelly then tries to help him out by saying, do you think they're just doing to you what they did to Brett Kavanaugh? Which, by the way, what they did to Brett Kavanaugh

was there were all sorts of serious allegations against Brett Kavanaugh. And so they were investigated and they were explored in his confirmation hearings. And it's all just a smear as far as Pete Hegseth is concerned. Do you think you're being Kavanaugh right now? I had a member not 45 minutes ago, look me in the eye in private, just he and I and say, that's what they're trying to do to you. That's what they're trying to do to you. That's their playbook. Get ready for more. And they're going to make it up just like they have so far. All anonymous, all innuendo, all rumor, nothing sourced, no verification. And they're just going to keep doing it because you're a threat to them. It's important to mention that at least one of the people

who could come out and answer questions about Pete Hegseth can't because she's under an NDA that she signed when Pete Hegseth paid her off. We'll deal with that later as well, by the way. You're a threat to their system. You're a threat to all the things in Washington, D.C., the swamp, the things that people have rejected, you're a threat to that. And so they're coming after you. And and I know that he knows that. And when you stand firm on that, it's it's it's not difficult to just continue to fight. So, yeah, we saw what happened. But guess what happened? Kavanaugh stood up and he fought and he won. And hopefully Republicans have learned that lesson. Yeah. So hopefully they're all going to stand up and win now. Hilariously, later in the interview, Pete Hegseth says, you know what?

If I do become secretary of defense, I'm going to stop my drinking. The drinking that isn't a problem that is being made up that he doesn't really do. He's going to stop it. So you don't have to worry. And, you know, we knew about the wife situation, right? Sure. But nothing with respect to alcohol. It is, it is again, the anatomy of a smear. They're trying to extend it out because they want to create a scenario where senators go, okay, I could handle this. I could handle that. But if he's drinking, I can't handle that. That's, that is by far the least true aspect of any part of this.

So have you stopped drinking now? Thank you for asking that. Thank you so much, Megan, for asking that terrific question. So my plan going forward, ongoing, is when I deployed, we had something called General Order Number One. And in General Order Number One, you are not allowed to drink while you're on deployment. So if you're in Iraq and Afghanistan in a combat zone is you are not allowed to drink while you're on deployment. Right. So if you're in Iraq and Afghanistan in a combat zone, you're not allowed to drink. That's how I view this role as secretary of defense is that I'm not going to have a drink at all. That's not hard for me because it's not a problem for me.

But I need to make sure the senators and the troops and President Trump and everybody else knows when you call me 24-7, you're getting fully dialed in, Pete, just like you always did in Iraq and Afghanistan. I hate to say it, but this is pretty classic, pretty classic alcoholism behavior. And I don't say that as an insult. I mean, it's a classic thing where people who have a problem with alcohol use or abuse say, I'm good. I'm going to stop drinking if X, Y, Z happens. If the alcohol is not really a problem, why would you even need to stop drinking? Some of you know that over the years I've gotten emails on the show.

You just like one a year from people who go, David, you know, I, uh, I'm, I'm in recovery myself and I can tell from your glassy eyes that it seems that you're drinking during the show and so on and so forth. And every time I, uh, explain that it's the lights that make my eyes, uh, shiny, but that I, I barely drink. Um, but I don't start going, I've stopped drinking. Or if someone came to me and said, listen, David, we would hire you for something, but only if you stop drinking, I wouldn't go, oh, I will absolutely stop drinking. If you hire me, I would say I have like one drink every two weeks. There's no reason for me to stop drinking. It's just not really a big part of my life. Pete Hexeth is going, no, no, no, no. If I'm made secretary of defense, the

drinking will stop. I'm going to stop the drinking. Uh, yet another kind of just question mark. And then finally asked about withdrawing from the nomination. He says he will only do that if Donald Trump asks him to. Is there a point at which you do what Matt Gaetz did? You know, too much of a distraction. Realize I can't get through. The senators won't do it. Is that is there a point like that? I mean, that's the president's call.

What I know in this entire process is there's only one man in America that got 76 million votes. One man that American voted for and for his for change in the Senate and in Washington, D.C. Yeah. He asked me. I shook his hand. I told him I'd fight like hell for him. The problem, of course, is they love to say this.

Trump got 76 million votes. He now gets to decide. First of all, most voters voted for somebody else. I hate to remind Pete, but more than 50% of those who voted did not vote for Trump. But more importantly, Trump won and he gets to nominate whoever he wants. That's what Trump gets to do. Senators determine whether Pete or cash or whoever are people that they want to confirm. And that's up to them. The senators don't need to be influenced by Trump's margin of victory. It just doesn't make any sense. So a disastrous interview for Pete Hegseth and really a disastrous day. This is a short one, but it's just so funny because of how far we've fallen.

CNN's Manu Raju in one of these sort of like you yell questions at Pete Hegseth sort of things as Hegseth was going between interviews to meetings with lawmakers and trying to resuscitate this nomination that's on life support. Manu Raju asks him, will you commit to not drinking on the job? And let's take a look. Let's take a listen. And then I want to talk about it a little bit. A wonderful process to go through and meet with senators and talk to them, especially members of the Senate Armed Services Committee, whose passion is the Defense Department and our warfighters to hear what they want to do to make sure

that department is properly oriented for the threats of the world and make sure that we're putting the warfighters first. That's what Donald Trump asked me to do. Your job is to bring a warfighting ethos back to the Pentagon. Your job is to make sure that it's lethality, lethality, lethality. Everything else is gone. Everything else that distracts from that shouldn't be happening. That's the message I'm hearing from senators in that advise and consent process. It's been a wonderful process.

As far as everything else, I had a chance to sit down with Megyn Kelly today for an hour. I refer you to that interview. She asked probably all the questions you guys would like to ask. Will you commit to not drinking on the job? Will you commit to not drinking on the job? Think about how far we have fallen. That do you commit to not drinking on the job is something that

we have to ask of the president elects nominee to run the military secretary of defense, second in command of the military behind the commander in chief himself. And the question we're asking is, will you commit to stop drinking contextualized by the understanding that this guy's drinking is a major problem and confirming that the drinking is a problem. Hegseth telling Megan Kelly, as we looked at earlier, he will stop drinking if he becomes secretary of defense, which of course, if you don't have a problem with drinking, you would say, there's really no reason for me to stop drinking. Occasionally I'll have a glass of wine at night with dinner, but there's really no reason

to stop drinking. This is going South and it's going South very, very quickly. All right. If what a Senator said yesterday is true, Pete Hegseth's nomination is dead because according to Senator Richard Blumenthal, a Democrat, five to 10 Republicans have privately said to him, we are not going to be supporting Pete Hegseth. The numbers are such that if they don't have five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10 Republican Senate votes, they don't have the votes to confirm Pete Hegseth. So let's listen to Senator Blumenthal here.

And remember, considering the math, if he's accurate here, this nomination's dead. I've talked to five to 10 Republicans who have said to me, they're just waiting for the right moment to say no to Pete has said. Your colleagues saying that to you privately is a much lower bar than being willing to vote against him publicly or even say publicly that they won't support him. Why do you think so few Republicans, none by my count, have been willing to come out and say they will definitively not support this nominee? Nobody wants to defy Donald Trump. Yeah.

So it's a good question, which is they can say privately to you, Senator Blumenthal, we don't like the guy, but it's different than actually publicly saying he doesn't have my vote. And then Trump has to start seeing the numbers and tallying up and saying, okay, well we've got 53, we've got 52, we've got 51 up. You know what? We're actually at 49. We can't get this guy confirmed, but I actually disagree with that.

These senators can privately back channel to Trump and say this is not someone that is going to have the votes without having to do it publicly if the idea is not to be as publicly adversarial to Trump or whatever priority they may have. I tend to believe from everything I'm reading from what other senators are saying, even some Republican senators who have expressed skepticism with Hegseth. At this point, I'm ready to say Hegseth's nomination is going to end without a confirmation hearing. Not a betting man. Don't go and bet on it on poly markets or wherever. But that's my sense at this point in time. Let me know what

you think. Is Pete Hegseth getting confirmed or is he going to get dumped by Trump? cravings. Zippix toothpicks are super discreet. You can use them anytime, anywhere smoking and vaping aren't allowed, including flights, sporting events in restaurants. They're available in six different flavors with options of two and three milligrams of nicotine. If you're not a nicotine user, Zippix also offers caffeine and B12 infused toothpicks. Zippix has already helped tens of Thank you so muchicks dot com today. Save 10 percent with the code Pacman 10 at checkout. Just remember you must be 21 or older to order. That's ZIPPIX toothpicks dot com. Use promo code Pacman 10 at checkout for 10 percent off. That's Pacman 1 0. The info is in the podcast notes. Every romantic relationship has periods where people get busy, struggle to find time to connect or find new ways to connect. And that's why our sponsor

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Whether you're just a few dates in or you've been together a long time like me, find the time to connect with your partner. Nourish the relationship. Head to paired dot com slash Pacman to get a seven day free trial and 25% off. If you sign up for a subscription, that's P A I R E D.com slash Pacman for a seven day free trial and 25% off a subscription. The link is in the podcast notes. It's great to welcome to the program today, Sam Wolfson, who's a senior features writer and editor at the guardian. Sam, it's so great to welcome to the program today, Sam Wolfson, who's a senior features writer and editor at the guardian. Sam, it's so great to have you on. You know, you wrote this piece looking at the effect of the podcasting sort of creator

online influencer space on the 2024 election. A lot has been made from different people as to the degree to which not doing the Rogan interview by Kamala Harris influenced the election. To translate my view so that you know, I think that that was representative of a lack of online plan. I don't think that one non interview really was the difference maker, but I want to hear from you. I mean, how much influence did the podcasting and creator space have on this election, first of all? And then we'll talk about maybe the approach that

the Harris campaign took. Yeah, I mean, thanks for having me on. And I think, you know, the first thing to say is anyone who kind of completely believes that the Democrats attitude to podcasts like define the election is clearly wrong. You know, there's a million factors, but I think it's an important one. And I think that what it's not so much about that the Democrats inability to work in this space, but the Republicans mastery of it, and not just focusing on this campaign and doing a couple of quick hits. But over a long period of time, I think what the right in general has been really effective at doing is transforming Donald Trump into a figure for whom, you know,

a certain number of people think he's a genius and brilliant and a certain number of people, he is absolute kryptonite can't be touched, you know, right. You know, I think of that Curb Your Enthusiasm episode where he wears the hat as a way of getting people away from him, you know, that kind of attitude to the point where we are now, where there's a lot of people who have kind of not just normalized him, but think he's bad, but he's maybe better than the elite alternative who think, yeah, he's got some weird views, but he's going to shake things up. They have made it acceptable for a much larger

group of people to be okay with supporting Trump or having sympathies for Trump. And I think that podcasters, particularly podcasters outside of the traditional political space, right, really effective in doing that. I think that it's very important to talk about this in terms of within the political space and outside of it, because I've talked about my experience. I requested an interview with the VP a few times and it was either and they know me at the White House. It's not like I'm this.

This is to my contacts. Right. They know me. I've been there, et cetera. And it was either we might be able to set something up if you can meet us at a campaign event to which you'd have to travel or we're just not really sure or I don't hear back at all. And Brian Tyler Cohen has also also talked about this, where even just accepting those interviews close to the election doesn't have the same effect that this ecosystem has when

everybody's kind of hanging out. They're comfortable environments. It's not super uptight in terms of what you're allowed to ask, et cetera. But this goes beyond the political space because there's a lot of people who just don't watch shows like mine. And then it becomes more about the ways to enter the culture, it would seem to me, where the candidate is personified and relatable and in these other environments that are less overtly political talk. What do you think? I know I just

said a lot, but does that does that resonate with your perspective? Completely. And I mean, I write this in the piece, but in the first trump election you know when steve bannon was masterminding a lot of what was going on he always said politics is downstream of culture right and that was the kind of founding principle of breitbart and i think they were very successful with older voters in hitting a bunch of cultural notes about immigration about abortion about you know all kinds of quote unquote silly things that like Democrats don't want to deal with, like, you know, Christmas and things like that, and creating kind of mountains out of molehills and finding the political through that way. What's happened in this election is that people like Theo Vaughn, like Joe Rogan,

like the kind of Kill Tony universe, who are not overtly political, but have managed to blend a bit of kind of humor, politics, attitude, lifestyle, all together in a way that like, actually really helps Trump. And I think like, one of the ways it's so powerful is that it reduces the stakes of the election because the democrats kept saying this is the most important election of your lifetime democracy is on the line and if you believe that then it's really hard to vote for trump but these podcasts and this world says no it's not this is a this is another kind of power play by the elites that's got nothing to do with you and this guy is kind of cool and funny and like you know and memeable and and and we there has

we can be a bit sympathetic towards him and so i think like it what to your point about the vp not coming on your show and that kind of like politicking you know the the right wing sphere has been really smart at going it's not actually about those one hits it's about how you like create an atmosphere and a world in which you know i think theo von is a really interesting example he's had a lot of the main figures from the republican party on his podcast right he's had trump he's had jd vance he's had people like tommy lauren he's had rfk he's had jordan peterson right but he also has like um james blake you know the producer and he has um uh john millennium you know and like i just think by combining those kind of liberal guests or

culture guests comedy guests with these right wing figures, you kind of say like, oh, these people are all worth listening to equally. Right. And I think that actually, the kind of de-platforming tendency in the left or like the kind of ignoring tendency has just created that division, whereas these guys have kind of, you know, seemingly welcomed a lot more people in and I think normalized really dangerous figures. Yeah. And it's interesting because as you point out, um, if you are hearing on political outlets that Trump is authoritarian, he doesn't respect the rule of law, all of the things that I

believe are true that were being said, but then you kind of see him hanging out for 90 minutes with the NELC boys talking about golfing and women and betting and sports and this sort of thing. It kind of just like it files down the edges a little bit. And it's just sort of like, I don't know, I'm not thrilled with Biden. This probably is fine. How bad can it really be? He seems to get along fine with the NELC boys. It sort of seems to be the point you're making. Totally. And I think that like, you know, the one that really stood out to me, because it basically, if you let anyone talk for 19 minutes unchallenged in a kind of sympathetic environment, then you give them at least humanity. you know, like, I was really struck by a Pete

Hegseff interview on the Sean Ryan show, which is actually one of the most popular podcasts on Spotify. And, you know, Hegseff, I think, is probably as close to sort of evil incarnate as any human being can be, you know, he really believes some truly heinous, terrible things and virulently believes them, you know, more so I would say than even Trump. Yeah. But, you know, if you have someone like that on for 90 minutes for let them ramble and talk about their life, of course, it softens them. Of course, it like makes them seem more human and it allows them to kind of sneak in some really, really horrendous, you know, very fascistic talking points. And I think that the length of these podcasts is a huge factor in their success.

You know, they wear you down. They kind of just are like a nice thing in the background. They're not like Fox News. They're not like Breitbart. They're not trying to scare you and tell you that everything's going to be terrible. In fact, they're the opposite. They say everything's going to be fine. Let's let these guys have a go. Don't worry about it. You write that sometimes in the cultural podcasts that are not overtly political, there can be racism, misogyny, etc. That just doesn't really get the attention that it may when something happens more overtly in the news or politics space. Can you talk a little bit about why that is? I think the first thing is the length, right? That most people in media criticism don't have

time to listen to like an unbelievable amount of like hours of material, you know, like just a huge, huge amount that is being put out. I mean, even Rogan alone, who I don't think is like especially racist or right wing, but you know, like he puts out about 12 or 13 hours of podcasts a week, you know, and it follows on. So I think that one thing is just like, there's just not enough time to give it all attention. And then also I think that there's like a lack of, or certainly up to now,

there's been a lack of understanding of like the influence that these people have you know so like there is actually an infrastructure you know great work being done by media matters for america and a number of other people in looking at every single thing that happens on fox news and pulling it apart and if there's a segment that like falls you know foul they'll make a big deal of it and then you'll see it on the daily show etc whereas i just think like, one of the successes of this entire space has been its ability to go under the radar, you know, and just like reach a huge, huge audience without realizing the same kind of level of analysis. Why do you think the top podcasts

lean right wing or what we might call right wing adjacent, which is, I think, as you're talking about, you know, I've talked about how the man is manosphere shows the business and entrepreneurship shows the fitness shows. A lot of times they're kind of cultivating a sort of right wing environment, even if they're not overtly right wing. What is it? Is there something about the format that lends itself more to that ideology or messaging? Yeah, it's really interesting, isn't it? Because like Spotify has, it skews much younger, right? Than other kinds of apps. So you're looking at a young audience. And, you know, you would think that there would be a kind of big, you wouldn't see so many figures like Tucker Carlson and maybe like dax shepherd and stuff on

there but there they all are in the i mean spotify just released their top 50 podcasts in the u.s for the entire year joe rogan was number one then call her daddy which is maybe you know the one kind of more slightly liberally minded podcast in the space then theo von and then tucker carlson at six huberman at seven you know so it's just like and Sean Ryan at 10 of the year which I think is really interesting he's such a kind of influential figure as well and I just think that these guys have have found a way of reaching this audience that has like I think liberals are don't really want to make necessarily that same kind of content, you know, like, we want to make highly produced, highly fact checked, news based podcasts, you know,

and I just think they aren't as, yeah, they don't create the same kind of relationship with the listeners. I think that's one thing. The other thing that I think is really important, and there's been some really good reporting on this today by the young men research initiative which I'd encourage people to check out but there's just the most huge amount of money being put into these podcasts not just to paying the influencers to make this stuff and giving them you know being able to that this can be their main job but also it's like a huge infrastructure of activists of promotion i mean they're estimating that overall the ecosystem targeting young people and their media has had 1.2 billion with a b dollars of investment and then specifically looking at kind of

influencers and podcasters that's 400 million and that's coming from all these places you know from real clear foundation from project veritas from pra. And so like, as much as there is a kind of organic feeling to some of these shows, there is also an unbelievable amount of money being put behind them, including, you know, Barstool and the Nelt Boys and everything else. So to that, what is it that the left needs to do? I mean, on one hand, I do think that the lack of funding is a problem. I mean, you can do a lot better than you're doing without some big funding kind of being dumped in the way some of these right wing networks have. But it certainly would make it easier and I think more tractable if there was some kind of

broader systemic funding of a left wingwing ecosystem, but like what, what sort of needs to happen in your mind? I don't know. It's really difficult, isn't it? Because like you see something like the pod save American network or whatever, they've got a lot of funding. They've got a lot of shows there. They were number 37, their main podcast on that list of the year, you know? And so I think it is really hard to break through, but I on that list of the year you know and so i think it is really hard to break through but i think that one of the things has to be to not you know that the left has to be careful not to eat its own and destroy itself you know we get very nervous when there's a slightly populist figure speaking directly to people you know and there's always a kind of

backlash and resistance and i think that um yeah i think there has to be a kind of broader acceptance of those kinds of voices i think that people you know this huge amount of money was wasted there's no other word for it on the harris campaign doing stupid things like investing in um you know this las vegas sphere or whatever and phone banking and things that clearly just wasn't working. And I think that money could be invested more riskily, you know, like one thing about Peter Thiel, with all the things that he chucks money at is that they don't all work, right? He's got a space in downtown Manhattan now where like neo Nazis can hang out and have cocktails for free. He's got like various blogs and sub stacks and things that he's just chucking money around. He doesn't really

know if it's going to work, but clearly he's been able to fund a kind of ecosystem of right-wingers that's had the overall effect of, of, of helping people. And so, yeah, I think some of these packs, some of these groups are going to have to take a risk on some people, let them have a go and, and we're going to have to see. And I think that is really, really hard for Democrats because it involves losing a bit of control. And that is, well, I think that that gets at a really important point, which is a lot of the people that are funding Charlie Kirk's podcast. They're not listening to Charlie Kirk's podcast.

They don't really care about the ratings of Charlie Kirk's podcast. It's just they're funding that and donating to Trump and their members to the Daily Wire and they're going to Tucker Carlson's events. And, you know, I'm talking about at the individual level, but also like at the systemic level, my conversations on the left with people who talk to the folks that might want to do this is always so careful. And listen, they're willing to kind of do like 12,000 in the next quarter distributed among a hundred influencers to do one video. You're just, it's just not good. There's no way. It's sort of like when, when an advertiser comes to me now it's to our ad sales team and says, we'd like to advertise.

We want to buy one spot on your podcast. And we just say, it's just not even worth it. We're going to, it's, it's a lot of work for us to produce a spot for only to use it once you running one spot is not going to give you results that you're happy with. It won't work for anybody. And that's the sort of feeling I get when sometimes I hear about these conversations with the potential funders of a left wing ecosystem where it's like we're already thinking about it the wrong way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I totally agree. And I mean, look, you would know better. You're in this space and you're trying to do something that there aren't's very difficult because there is a kind of natural

aversion I think in the left to like raising personalities and like having that kind of mix of culture and politics and also like because they've been so effective I think at making it cool you know like I've lived through a number of cycles of like it being cool to care about activism and then it being cool to be nihilistic you know right i would say i've been through like you know i used to work at vice i was went through many of those cycles there you know like and now it is we are in a space where it's like cool to be nihilistic it's cool to not care it's cool to say it's all bullshit and i think like you're now a really uphill place to try and find a way to not just get people engaged, but do it in a way that feels better

than what they're doing, which is like having fun and having parties. It's difficult. It's really difficult. I'll admit when I see the videos of everybody hanging out at Mar-a-Lago, I understand why they're committed to the movement. I mean, it's just like, it's fun. You get to hang around the pool. All of a sudden, you know, Barron's there or whatever, like as, as cringy as it is. I also do get it. And we just don't have anything like that on the left. But I also think like they've got Mar-a-Lago, but then they also have this place in Dimes Square in New York that Peter Thiel funds that like all the Red Scare girls hang out, you know, they're hitting from both sides and they've got like these podcasting events and, you know, they're funding all the Bitcoin bro stuff, you know, like they are really hitting their

different demographics and making it fun for all of them to be involved. And I just think Democrats aren't doing that. They're not doing it. They're not doing it. Sam Wolfson, senior features writer and editor at The Guardian. We're going to link out to his article related to this issue. Sam, really appreciate your time and insights today. Thanks for having me on. Something I don't go anywhere without is my Ridge wallet. I've been using it for years, long before they became a sponsor. And it makes a perfect holiday gift. A slim front pocket design is thin and lightweight. No more back pain from the George Costanza sized wallet in your back pocket. It holds up to 12 cards and cash, but

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which is what about having Pete Hegseth release the NDA from the woman he paid not to talk so she can come here and I can ask her questions and then we can evaluate her credibility. And Rick Scott goes, oh, no, no, no, no. The NDA must stay. The NDA is sacred. This guy is pathetic. Let's take a look at the video. These anonymous sources say these things without willing to go on to go on your show or some show? And, you know, have you asked them all these all the questions? A point that you're making here, the woman who accuses Peter of raping her in 2017, although the police, we should note, did not charge him with any crime. That woman, Pete, paid her money and she signed a nondisclosure

agreement. So she can't come on my show to talk about it. Do you think Pete should release her from the NDA so that I can ask her the questions that you want me to? Absolutely not. There's so many. Think about it. Jake, you know, how many people. Wait, wait, wait, Jake. He said absolutely not. We know how many people sign nondisclosures just to eliminate something, not that they ever Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait,

wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, change a contract that they signed. But this is Trump's nominee. He won. A lot of people don't like the fact that he won. He won. We have to make a change as Department of Defense.

We have the risk of war. The world's on fire. We've got to change how our Department of Defense is run. He's going to do it. I hear you, but you started this interview and saying you don't like all these anonymous accusations and I should be able to interview these people. I'm saying, okay, shouldn't Pete Hegseth release this woman from her nondisclosure agreement so that I can do what you suggested at the top of the interview you wanted me to do?

Absolutely not. I mean, I mean, some of these things are done for a variety of reasons, but whatever this see, this is this is getting completely around the point. Whatever the reason that it was originally done, maybe there's a higher order priority now, which is clearing Pete Hegseth's name. And if Rick Scott believes that if the truth came out about the allegations associated with that NDA, it would make Pete Hegseth look really good. He should be saying, yeah, maybe Pete Hegseth should consider, uh, releasing the end, releasing the woman from the MDA and letting her come and

speak. But that's not what he actually expects would happen because he knows the allegations are credible. Well, how am I supposed to interview her and, and, and have her not be anonymous anymore if he won't release her from the nondisclosure agreement. Well, first off, there was an investigation. He wasn't charged. All right. That's exactly what happened. The police did the investigation. He wasn't sure he did pay her money to be quiet though. So it was investigation. He wasn't charged. So he's got, I mean, why don't people respect these people that defend our freedom? I don't know what you're talking about. He fought in the Second World War. He did all the imagine talking about your dad's military record when the question is

Pete Hegseth alleged sexual assault combat jobs. He put his life on the line. He put his life on the line. Respect him. Well, I respect veterans and soldiers all the time, but that's not really the point. I mean, millions of Americans and soldiers all the time, but that's not really the point. I mean, millions of Americans have served in the military. That doesn't mean that they should be in charge of the military. Well, here's a guy that put his life on the line, right? He's fought for veterans

since he got out. He's got he's got the right background. He knows the problem of woke. Yeah. Nothing screams innocence like silencing your accuser with a payout and a legal gag order and nothing then screams accountability like having a politician go on TV and defend the gag order rather than saying, let's get the truth out here. These are not serious people. I do believe, as I said earlier, that the Hegseth nomination is ultimately going to fail, but I think it's going to fail not because of Rick Scott, but because of other Republican senators.

We will watch it very closely. Maybe by the time you listen to this, Hegseth will be out or maybe not. All right. I told you yesterday that one of the names being floated as a possible replacement for Pete Hegseth to run a department of defense is Florida governor Ron DeSanctimonious. And I have a couple of funny clips here. Senator John Fetterman was asked, would you consider, uh, voting to confirm Ron DeSantis if that ended up being Donald Trump's nominee and Fetterman, he has these moments

where he's actually kind of funny. He says, I would consider it if Ron DeSantis admits that he wears lifts to make him look taller. Considering voting yes on DeSantis, if he's finally admits that he has lifts in his boots, I'm sure he does. So maybe three inches, four inches at least. He's a okay. So we're going to hear in a moment from Senator Mark Kelly with like sort of a more serious explanation.

I actually think this is hilarious. The entire lifts thing is funny only because only because this is a Republican Party that, as we've talked about before, as you know, put so much emphasis on traditional markers of being a, uh, a masculine alpha male. Height is one of them. Trump lies about his height and appear apparently wears lifts and so does Ron DeSantis and every, I don't care how tall you are.

You know, uh, I don't think Anthony Fauci is particularly tall, but what I care about is what he says and what he knows and what he does. Not how tall he is. Maybe Fauci is tall. I didn't think he was. what he says and what he knows and what he does, not how tall he is. Maybe Fauci is tall. I didn't think he was. Uh, the point here is who really cares about that? These people are so vain that they do. And it's funny to see it get turned around.

Now, here is Mark Kelly with maybe a more substantive reaction to the possibility of the sanctimonious replacing Pete Hegseth, which I do want to delve into. You know, a governor of one of our biggest states, he served in Congress. He's served in the military. So I think he has what you would look at on paper as the requisite kind of experience you would want in a secretary of defense. It's 100 percent clear to me who he. This is. Josh Hawley wants a secretary of defense right now. And that last comment from Senator Josh Hawley, a Republican who had a meeting scheduled with Hexeth tomorrow. He told me that it was canceled, but the transition tells me that they've rescheduled that for next week. Yeah. So a lot of really weird stuff is

happening. The cancellation of the meeting with Josh Holly, we are told is just a scheduling issue. I want to address what Mark Kelly said, because this is, this is one of those things that, that sort of requires a little bit of examination. The concept of being qualified on paper is an interesting one. What Mark Kelly is arguing about Ron DeSantis is that if you knew nothing about him and you just read about his experience and you see his education, you see his military service skipping over the details, right? Like a 30,000 foot view, his education, his military service, his experience as a governor, governors are much more administrators than senators or members of the house are. There is a sense in which, again, using Mark Kelly's

term on paper, he does seem like he would be, quote, qualified. The problem with a lot of these people comes not in the on paper. It comes in the in the flesh. What are they like? And of course, Ron DeSantis is, although a little bit more of a hesitant maga type guy, still represents this new wave of republicanism that I believe is at a fundamental and core level, unfit to lead, unfit to serve and shouldn't be in charge of anything. However, Mark Kelly is correct. He is correct that in a, at a 30,000 foot view, it's hard to say based on historical precedent, you might argue the person running DOD should actually have these other qualifications.

Fine. I, I, I might agree with you on what they are, but at some 30,000 foot level, it's more difficult to argue that the Santas isn't qualified. Now if we skip ahead and we ask the question, does Santas might be less cartoonishly unfit, but what if they were in positions of power? Who is likely to actually do better in the role? Sometimes I say to you, the person that's going to do it is going to be just as bad. I'll give you an example. Matt Gates for a G completely unqualified.

He should be really, you know, nominated to, to main crime, commit or not main crime prosecutor. So Gates steps down and they put in Pam Bondi. Oh, okay. Pam Bondi is better. But is she, I think that although Pam Bondi doesn't have the personal scandal to the same degree that Gates has, effectively, Bondi and Gates share that they are both more than willing to go after Trump's political enemies, do Trump's revenge, weaponize the justice system. So although Bondi is less obviously unfit, she's going to do just as bad

a job as Matt Gaetz would have done when it comes to Hegseth and DeSantis. My view is a little different. I don't believe that DeSantis is a good choice. His worldview, his beliefs, his policy positions, his approach to military. I disagree with all of it, but I do think that Hegseth is so acutely unqualified and a danger in a particular way that DeSantis is not. I think DeSantis would be slightly less bad as secretary of defense than would Hegseth. Whereas Bondi and Gates, I basically see as two sides of the same coin. Let me know what you think about that. I'm curious your opinion. Agree.

Disagree on the bonus show today. We are going to talk about the wild killing in cold blood of United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson. I'll tell you what is known and what is not known. It's an insane story. We'll also talk about South Korea's opposition parties moving to impeach the president over the sudden declaration of martial law. And finally, the Satanic Temple has done it.

They are getting a religious program for elementary school students in Ohio. It's all completely optional. If you're going to allow Christianity to have such a program under the law, I think you have to allow the Satanic Temple to have such a program as well. All of those stories and more on today's bonus show. We are pushing to four thousand preorders for my forthcoming book, The Echo Machine. Add your name to the preorder list and get all of the free stuff by preordering today and submitting your receipt at David Pakman dot com slash free book stuff. I'll see you on the bonus show and back here tomorrow.