The David Pakman Show - 3/2/23: FBI hearings backfire, Trump takes massive leads in 4 polls

Episode Date: March 2, 2023

-- On the Show: -- Will Sommer, politics reporter for The Daily Beast, co-host of the Fever Dreams podcast on conservative media, and author of the new book "Trust the Plan: The Rise of QAnon and the Conspiracy That Unhinged America," joins David to discuss the book. Get the book here: https://amzn.to/3SFhQZc -- Republican hearings on the "weaponization" of the FBI go horribly wrong, backfiring spectacularly -- Florida Sheriff Mike Chitwood goes absolutely nuclear on the neo-Nazis who have been harassing Jewish people in his community -- Failed former President Donald Trump's lead over Ron DeSantis in the 2024 Republican Presidential primary is growing in multiple polls -- Failed former President Donald Trump loses it, posting uncontrollably and repeatedly to Truth Social about everything from Ron DeSantis and Paul Ryan to Fox News and CPAC -- Newsmax guest Vernon Jones devolves into a racist rant, the specifics of which he gets wrong, during a recent appearance -- Glenn Greenwald and Briahna Joy Gray come after David because he doesn't think Marianne Williamson is a good presidential candidate -- The Eggman leaves a voicemail weighing in on the completely contrived controversy over Joe and Jill Biden ordering the same entree at a restaurant -- On the Bonus Show: Lori Lightfoot loses reelection bid in Chicago's mayoral race, food stamps getting cut, Republicans forget who was president in 2020, and much more... 🥄 Use code PAKMAN for $5 off Magic Spoon at https://magicspoon.com/pakman 👕 Leisure of NYC: Use code PAKMAN for 15% off at https://davidpakman.com/nyc 👩‍❤️‍👨 Try the Paired App FREE for 7 days and get 25% OFF at https://paired.com/pakman 😁 Zippix Toothpicks: Code PAKMAN10 saves you 10% at https://zippixtoothpicks.com 🌞 Get 10% off your first month of BetterHelp online therapy: https://betterhelp.com/pakman -- Become a Supporter: http://www.davidpakman.com/membership -- Subscribe on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/thedavidpakmanshow -- Subscribe to Pakman Live: https://www.youtube.com/pakmanlive -- Subscribe to Pakman Finance: https://www.youtube.com/pakmanfinance -- Follow us on Twitter: http://twitter.com/davidpakmanshow -- Like us on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/davidpakmanshow -- Leave us a message at The David Pakman Show Voicemail Line (219)-2DAVIDP

. Since Republicans have taken over control of the House of Representatives, they have held a bunch of these different hearings that are, of course, hearings meant only to virtue signal and meant only to not focus on issues actually facing the country. This includes hearings about big tech or the weaponization of the FBI. And yesterday there was one such hearing in which they brought out the attorney general, Merrick Garland, to answer questions. Ted Cruz went to law school and yet he seemed completely confused about how the law works in this first clip. And these hearings really went wrong so quickly. And we'll talk about what these are really meant to accomplish in a moment. In this first clip, Ted Cruz starts

talking about leaks and Merrick Garland has to explain to him. Remember, Cruz is a lawyer. No, no, no, no. That wasn't a leak. That was a court filing. Those are by definition made public. Take a listen to this. As you know, the FBI raided Donald Trump's Mar-a-Lago home. And subsequent to that raid, there have been multiple leaks about what was discovered there, including a photograph of documents that were discovered there. Did you know about the leaks? The photograph was a filing in court in response to a motion filed by Mr. Trump. It was not a leak. So you're testifying there haven't been leaks about the Trump raid and I'm responding to the point. Yeah. Ted Cruz is a lawyer. Doesn't he know how the law works? He went to law school. Well,

it doesn't matter because Ted Cruz is there not as someone with some legal knowledge as as rudimentary as it might be. He's there as a performer who is there to attack Merrick Garland and to further a narrative that everything that has gone on with the investigation into Donald Trump has been some kind of politically biased subterfuge or plan or whatever the case may be. Then the subject comes up of protesters outside the homes of Supreme Court justices. And again, I'm guessing Ted Cruz knows this stuff, but Ted Cruz wants to pretend that it is up to Merrick Garland to enforce statutes, but it is actually up to law enforcement on the scene. And it is another one of these just deranged performative moments that Ted Cruz thinks make them look really good. How do you decide which criminal statutes the DOJ enforces and which one it doesn't? The United States marshals know that they have full. I recognize you want to give a separate

speech. No, I don't want to. How do you decide which statutes you enforce and which ones you don't? The marshals on scene make that determination in light of the priority of the marshals do not make a determination over whether to prosecute you. The attorney general make a determination and you spent 20 years as a judge and you're perfectly content with justices being afraid for their children's lives. And you this this is understand this is merely a performance. This is not to investigate or learn a damn thing. Did nothing to prosecute it.

Let's shift to another area. Can I answer the question? No, you can't. You have refused to answer. I am answering your I'm you're not I'm here to perform, Mr. Attorney General, not for you to answer my questions. Question. The attorney general does not decide whether to. How did you choose not to not to enforce this statute? The marshals on scene don't make that decision. They do make the decision of

whether to make an arrest. Someone know they don't. If they make up if they make. Marshals do not have prosecutions. They make an arrest. Let's change topics because our time is limited. The time is limited because Ted Cruz won't actually let the witness answer the questions. And of course, Ted Cruz is blending two different things. Ted Cruz is blending what actions were and weren't taken at the homes of Supreme Court justices, which is completely up to law enforcement. And then as a separate matter, wants Merrick Garland to discuss indictments, which are a separate issue to actions taken or not taken at the homes of law enforcement.

And again, I know Ted Cruz is like sort of dim, but he's not this dim. And we all know Ted Cruz knows that Ted Cruz then continues in turning. He's determined to turn this hearing into a farce, which he very easily did. And he starts talking about what is effectively a conspiracy theory for which there is no evidence arguing that the Department of Justice leaked about investigating Hunter Biden to serve as a pretext to indict Trump by being able to say, see, we're nonpartisan. If that's confusing to you, if that doesn't make sense to you, it's because it doesn't make sense.

Speaker 3 Toward that end, the Department of Justice has leaked that DOJ is investigating and intends to indict Hunter Biden. The purpose of those leaks, I believe, was to set the predicate for an indictment of Trump to say, look how even handed we are. We're indicting a Biden. We're indicting a Trump. Those leaks are not law. Speculation, conspiracy theory, unfounded, no evidence, and also not a question to the witness that is there. But remember, these hearings in sum total are performances. That's what they are meant to be. That's what they are meant to be. Another interesting moment was in this exchange with Ted Cruz, Merrick Garland points out, you know, some of you

Republican senators are arguing that we leak to help the left. Now you're saying the leaks are to help the right. It's all incoherent. But good for Merrick Garland for pointing it out. The answer is the leaks are consistently on one side of the aisle advancing one political agenda. So it doesn't seem to me, Attorney General, that the FBI has a lot of confidence in you because what they're doing clearly is trying

to distance themselves from your decisions. They're out there leaking left, right and center and saying it wasn't us. We didn't want to do it. He made us do it. Right. What's that say about their confidence in your leader? So understand here and Garland will address it. Cruz is arguing you're making all these leaks to help the left. And Josh Hawley is saying the leaks are coming out actually from people who don't agree with you in order to help the right. No, the previous senator said that they're leaking all in favor of the left. Now you're saying they're leaking all in favor. I'm asking you my question. Answer my question based on this evidence. Don't disassemble attorney general. Answer my question. Time has expired. Senator Cotton. Yeah. So Merrick Garland accurately figuring out what the story is here. And it's a story that makes absolutely no, no sense whatsoever. Here is Merrick Garland then

debunking the Republican talking point about the FBI being used on parents. Remember, this was floating around for a while. Oh, they're sending the FBI. They're they're declaring parents to be domestic terrorists if they go to school board meetings and the FBI is getting involved. This was during questioning from Senator John Kennedy. Didn't you understand?

By the way, isn't isn't John Kennedy insufferable? The chilling effect that it would have. To parents. terrorism divisions to investigate parents who are angry at school boards and administrators during COVID? So, Senator, if you'd just give me a moment to put the full context, I did not do that. I did not issue any memorandum directing the investigation of parents who are concerned about their children. Quite to the contrary, the memorandum that you're talking about says at the very beginning of the memorandum that vigorous public debate is protected by the First Amendment. And the kind of concerns that you're talking about are, as expressed by parents, are, of course, completely protected. The memorandum was aimed at violence and threats of violence against a whole host of school

personnel. It was not aimed at parents making complaints to their school board. And it came in the context of a whole series of other kinds of violent threats and violence against other public officials. Yeah, they don't care. They're just getting the question on the record. You have to understand, you know, Merrick Garland's doing the best he can. But all of these questions are just performances. And these are sort of like auditions for who's going to get on Hannity later on last night. Another interesting moment, Senator Marsha

Blackburn told Merrick Garland she's going to send him a bunch of Twitter. You told me earlier that you didn't know who Jane's revenge is. They are all over Twitter. I'm going to do you a favor. I am going to send you a letter with a whole lot of Twitter and different feeds to help you. And that she's going to help them by sending him feeds investigation for the Hope Clinic. Yeah. Marsha Blackburn will help the Department of

Justice by sending Merrick Garland a whole bunch of Twitter. Once a viewer sent me a whole bunch of Alta Vista. I barely knew what to do with it. It was really crazy. And then lastly, here is a Republican senator from Arkansas, Tom Cotton, asking Merrick Garland, why did the DOJ not arrest protesters outside the homes of Supreme Court justices? Listen to how that went. Consider the efforts your department has put into tracking down everyone who is even on the Capitol grounds on January 6th, 2021. You've dedicated a million of man hours, a million to study videotape, to do forensic analysis of computers and devices, to go knock and conduct interviews. You can't allocate just a few agents to look at people's social media account to say they

were president outside of a justice home. We're going to go arrest them and charge them. It's a black letter violation of the law. Our priority is violence and threats of violence and protection of the lives of the justices. And that's what we're doing. Yeah. Why did you spend all this time trying to figure out who all of the criminals were on January 6th? And yet you're not out there trying to figure out who stood holding a sign outside of a Supreme Court justices house. Why isn't that evidence of bias?

Well, though, we're focused on violence and threats of violence. So that's that's why we did things the way we did them. So listen, this probably accomplished its goals insofar as it was meant to be a performative display of repeating the half and dim witted concerns of the Fox News audience, quite frankly, who only has these concerns because the very same people on these panels told them, here's what you need to be concerned about. And so it probably accomplished that goal. Merrick Garland did absolutely fine. But every single one of these hearings, just a complete and total face plant. And they're not going to stop because they're

then going to use these hearings to justify. We did things. We accomplish things, even though these hearings accomplish nothing. I don't know how many of you have been following the anti-Semitic sort of troll group that has been harassing Jewish folks in Florida and in other parts of the country. But I have absolutely fascinating video of Volusia Sheriff Mike Chitwood going nuclear on these neo-Nazi lunatics. This is a very interesting video I'm going to play for you. This was from just a few days ago. The Daily Beast article about it explains a week after a neo-Nazi hate group circulated through the Daytona Beach, Florida area, displaying and distributing extremist propaganda, the county's top cop has had enough. A seething Volusia Sheriff Mike Chitwood held a press conference on Monday, said this isn't

about free speech. This is about violence. It is very, very much worth looking at this. Take a listen. You'll first hear just a few seconds. This is video from Vice News. A few seconds of these so-called protesters just harassing Jewish people. And then we'll hear from Sheriff Chitwood. Speaker 1 Hey, you filthy Jew piece of shit. We see you. Hey, you got four skin in your head. Get him on camera. Get him on camera. Back up, back up, back up.

Speaker 2 We are not going to tolerate this. Let me tell you, this is not about free speech. This is about violence. Two days after the incident at the Speedway, one of these GDL members in GDL means Goyim Defense League. It's an anti-Semitic group. Bush and shot two Jewish Orthodox folks outside of their synagogue in L.A. There's a lot of people in this room and there's a lot of people around this country of the Jewish faith who are on their hit list. They try to besmirch your character. They try to put death threats out on you and threaten you and your family.

Well, I wear that as a badge of honor because I, too, by these clown group, want to shut my big mouth and put a bullet in the back of my head. Go for it. That's my message to you. Go for it. You came to the wrong county. I stand with my Jewish friends, and I'm honored to be on your hit list. It's an honor to be to be sought after by a bunch of punk thugs like you. That's my personal message. With that, I'll turn it over to people who are calmer.

The calmer people will now be allowed to speak. Listen, good, good for this guy. And this, of course, alone isn't actually going to shut these clowns down. But the part of the problem is it gets some attention. These clowns get some attention and the videos sort of go viral. But then it doesn't get the same serious handling that some other things do. And as the sheriff points out, it's very easy to say, all right, they're standing outside of a dairy mart with a sign about Jews. But it goes beyond that and it gets to it becomes real world violence and we see examples of it. So good for the sheriff. More folks should be aware of the fact that these troll groups are harassing people who are or who they believe to

be Jewish. And sometimes they're just wrong. Sometimes they harass people who aren't even Jewish. Now that it matters, but it's just sort of like, by the way, and if more sheriffs and if law enforcement dealt with it more the way Sheriff Chitwood is, we would probably all be far better off. So good for him. We have a YouTube channel, youtube.com slash the David Pakman show, which I would love for you to subscribe to. It's free to do. And we also have a Spanish YouTube channel, which you can find at David Pakman dot com slash Spanish, whichever of the two languages you prefer to consume progressive political analysis in. It is available to you. And that's a beautiful thing. more protein. Magic Spoon has zero grams of sugar. It's packed with 13 to 14 grams of protein and

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meaning that the numbers may not really tell us everything we need to know. Absolutely. But Trump's February polling bump simply cannot be denied. You know, one of the things I will often say is we should look at an average of polls rather than any one poll. If you're going to look at one poll, ideally it will be a highly rated pollster, not the CD or unrated pollsters of no good reputation. Ideally we would, if we look at one poll, it would be a highly rated pollster. But in a perfect world, we would look at a number of highly rated polls and take a look at the average trend lines and say, what does this tell us in general? Well, looking at a bunch of new polls, Donald

Trump is expanding his lead, but DeSantis hasn't announced. Here's an Axios article that summarizes it for new polls show Trump has received a boost in Republican support, with one survey showing him hitting 50 percent support in a crowded field. Could it be the visit to the train derailment site in East Palestine, Ohio? Maybe. Could it be his campaign stops in South Carolina? I don't know. But here are the numbers. New Emerson poll has Trump leading DeSantis by 30, 55 to 25. That used to be a 26 point lead in January. That same poll shows Trump getting a four point bump to 55, 25. Trump gets 72 percent support among Republicans with a high school degree or less. That same poll found Trump ahead of Biden, 46, 42. But DeSantis trailing Biden. Other polls, new Yahoo News, YouGov poll has Trump with an eight point lead on DeSantis, 47, 39. In the last one, DeSantis was ahead. So that went from a four

point DeSantis lead. Wrong. DeSantis, a DeSantis lead was four. Now it's Trump plus eight. That's a 12 point swing in a short period of time. You then have the Republican polling firm Echelon Insights finds Trump ahead of DeSantis by 15, 46 to 31. Last month, Trump was only up by two. So that's a 13 point gain for the failed former president. And then in the first Fox News presidential primary poll, remember, Fox News polling is actually quite good. Fox itself doesn't do the polling. A pollster does it. But these are Fox News branded polls. They find Trump ahead of DeSantis by 15, 43 to 28. A number of important caveats here. In general, Trump does better when the polls just say if it's Trump or DeSantis, who do you want when the polls say if it's Trump or DeSantis

or Nikki Haley or Ted Cruz or Tim Scott or Mike Pompeo or Mike Pence or Sarah Palin, the more people that are included, the smaller Trump's lead is. And sometimes DeSantis is actually still ahead in those polls that include multiple candidates. So this is why Trump knows it's actually better for him for there to be more candidates. If there are more candidates, he does better in the polling. OK, now, is it possible that this polling bump for Trump prevents Ron DeSantis from announcing anything? Is it possible Ron DeSantis will look at these numbers and say, wow, Trump built a lead. He added four points, eight points, sometimes double digits over me over the last month. Is this a sign I shouldn't even get involved? It's hard to say because privately, if you're Ron DeSantis and big Republican donors are coming to you and saying, listen, I've done I've said nothing yet. If you run, I will support

you and I will throw a bunch of money behind you. If you're Ron DeSantis and you've got a bunch of wealthy Republicans who are telling you that you could reasonably end up thinking I'm going to get the money to catch up. Fine. Trump's leading. But it's March of 2023. The primary isn't really going to be until June, July of 2020, May, June, July, April, May, June, July of 2024. I have plenty of time. And with a bunch of this Republican money, I could actually catch up. That's a possibility. We have to be honest that this is not nearly as competitive as some commentators are making it out to be. It's early and the polls can fluctuate. Sure. But this is a unique situation where you have a former president running in a primary. A former president running in a primary will have fewer fluctuations than

normal. So while Ron DeSantis certainly could grow his support if he gets into this race, my instinct is that that support is going to grow more from picking off ones and twos and threes from people who have very little support or even seven like Nikki Haley in a recent poll than it is from eating away at Trump support. That's my prediction. I'm terrible at predicting things. And you should not make any financial bets based on what I'm telling you. But that's my instinct right now. It cannot be denied that it is not as close today as many in the media are making it seem. I also have expressed to you if DeSantis announces and it becomes a national campaign, DeSantis is total lack of charisma and seeming commitment

to, quote, take the high road, even though he just comes off as low energy when he does it, I don't think are going to help him. So I struggle to see how if it is Trump versus DeSantis in a long Republican primary. I just don't know how DeSantis takes it. Donald Trump increasingly seeming unwell, posting uncontrollably to Truth Social Truth Central multiple times per hour about Fox News, about Ron DeSantis, about rhinos, about CPAC. Trump seems to have nothing to do other than to rage and melt down day after day, hour after hour. Look at the last 24 hours for Trump on Troth Sensual, whatever you call it. Trump starting yesterday with, quote, I think that Fox board member Rhino Paul Ryan put his boss, Rupert Murdoch, in a great legal and monetary jeopardy

by convincing him to go against his news anchors and their belief that the 2020 presidential election was rigged in Stalin. It was Stalin. In so doing, Murdoch is saying that Fox behaved badly when, in fact, evidence has proven that the election was rife with election fraud and irregularities. Ryan is bad luck for Fox. He should resign or be fired. Too many incompetent rhinos at Fox News. This this is freaking brilliant.

We have all of the texts that show that the Fox hosts didn't really believe Trump won. This is what's so amazing about Trump's ability to just ignore critical realities about the world around us. Trump wants to make the case. All those Fox hosts rightly believed that I won, but Rupert Murdoch and Paul Ryan convinced them otherwise. The truth is the anchors were publicly playing up this whole it was stolen narrative or it was Stalin, as Trump wrote. But privately, they were texting each other this whole it was stolen narrative or it was stolen, as Trump wrote. But privately, they were texting each other about how it was all B.S.. So they didn't really believe it. That's the reality. But of course, so far, RINO, Paul Ryan, Rupert Murdoch, that's the target of Trump's ire. Trump then moving on

to talking about polling, talking in speaking, typing in all caps, great poll numbers leading Biden, DeSantis and all others by a lot. Make America great again. OK, so going after Ron DeSantis and Biden from continuing now moving on to CPAC. Now, understand the context. CPAC is a joke this year. Last night I tried to stream day one. There were no live streams. It seems like they canceled day one. Like it's it's it's in shambles at CPAC. Trump is speaking there on Saturday and Trump is, I guess, angry that a lot of people aren't going there or something. So Trump posts, I will be at CPAC on Saturday talking about the fact that obviously our

capital C country is going to quote unquote hell and how to fix it. Also, the Democrats use of radical left prosecutors and the weaponization of law enforcement. It is illegal, has never been used and abused like this, and has the potential to bring down our once fair and wonderful capital C country. These Marxists kept Marxist capital T thugs have been after me for years only to help them win elections in just capital to capital years. We have become a third world capital F failing capital and nation Maga. So just dissembling completely just that his brain is mush. Trump continuing now addressing why many aren't going to see pack.

The only reason certain quote candidates won't be going to CPAC is because the crowds have no interest in anything they have to say. They've heard it all before and don't want to hear it again. But my speech on Saturday night is already a sold out monster. They are trying to expand the room and space. We'll have a great time at CPAC. We always do. See you there. And don't forget to vote in the important and space. We'll have a great time at CPAC. We always do. See you there. And don't

forget to vote in the important straw poll. Now, one of the reasons a lot of people aren't going to CPAC is that CPACs, the guy who runs CPAC, Matt Schlapp, is accused, despite being anti-gay, is accused of sexually assaulting a male staffer of Herschel Walker's back during the campaign. I know that the language is sort of colorful, but he's accused. The word that was used is pummeling the junk of one of these staffers and a lot of a lot. Some Republicans seem to want nothing to do with Matt Schlapp. OK, a couple more posts. And again, this is all within a day. Trump is just uncontrollably post-truth central. Quote, rumors are flying high that idiot rhino Paul Ryan, who has greatly hurt the credibility of Rupert Murdoch with his

ridiculous stance that the 2020 election was all peaches and cream, will be fired like a dog from the Fox board. Fox is going in the wrong direction. Ratings are heading down. And Murdoch just threw certain very good people who were correct under the bus. He played right into the enemy's camp. Viewers and MAGA are not happy. And then lastly, Trump posting Rupert Murdoch should apologize to his viewers and readers for his ridiculous defense of the 2020 presidential election. How many forms of cheating and rigging does he have to see? He should also apologize to those anchors who got it right and fire the ones who got it wrong or were afraid to speak up, of which there were many. It's time to get rid of fake news and

call it like it is fascinating. Trump now applying his fake news moniker, his fake news moniker to Fox News itself. It is going to be a wild primary. My intent is to stream CPAC today, tomorrow and Saturday, assuming it doesn't get canceled like last night seemed to get. We will be starting mid to late afternoon, 4 or 5 p.m. Eastern ish today on YouTube, Twitch and Facebook. I hope you'll join me. And remember, our commentary and videos widely available on tick tock. Search David Pakman show on tick tock. One of our sponsors is paired the app for couples every day paired gives you and your partner Thank you. especially with the baby right now, my girlfriend and I are quite busy and paired really helped us to stay connected. You get a daily question to answer.

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Use promo code Pacman 10 at checkout for 10 percent off. That's Pacman 1 0. The info is in the podcast notes. It's great to have back on the program today, Will Summer, who's a politics reporter for The Daily Beast and also co-host of the Fever Dreams podcast about conservative media. He's author of the book Trust the Plan, The Rise of QAnon and the Conspiracy that Unhinged America. Will, great to have you back. David, thanks for having me. So you know, we many of us have seen the polls that came out over the last couple of years,

some which will make claims like, you know, a fifth of Americans or of Republicans or whoever believe some aspect of QAnon beliefs. And then, you know, you look more deeply and sometimes it's the slightly less crazy beliefs. And so it can be sort of hard to know, like, what does it really mean when we say this portion of the population believes this stuff? And are some of these beliefs unique to QAnon or are they kind of coincidental? So let's just maybe start with what is your understanding right now of when we talk about QAnon conspiracies with which conspiracies are we talking about? Speaker 1 Sure.

So, yeah, I mean, I think it might be helpful there to sort of lay down the fundamental belief of QAnon and then, you know, we can go from there. Yeah. So I would say, you know, there's so much crazy stuff involved in this. But I think kind of the core belief is that the world is run by a cabal of pedophile Satanists who torture children in satanic rituals to drink their blood. And that this includes people in banking, in Hollywood, in the Democratic Party. And the second part of that is that this moment is going to come called the storm, where Donald Trump is going to essentially impose a fascist dictatorship on America. But they think that's a great idea and execute his enemies. And so I would say that's sort of

the core belief of QAnon. So when people are polled on, do you think that world elites are in satanic cults and, you know, abusing children, that's in the teens to the low 20%. When you ask people, do you believe in QAnon straight up? It's usually, and, you know, I like to go with the most conservative estimates here, because as you say, I mean, when we make it really broad, if we say, do you think powerful people abuse children sometimes, you know, the answer is, that's not an unreasonable thing to believe. So when you ask people, do you believe in QAnon really kind of flat out, they typically say three to 7%. And so, you know, I like to go with that kind of stricter definition. But at the same time, when you say, you know, talk about satanic cults more generally,

that's still a lot of people. Right. And that's that's that's pretty crazy belief. So even on the lower end, we're talking about millions of Americans. A lot of the the way you just laid it out, there are lots of similar conspiracy theories by substituting just like one word. Like, for example, the storm sounds surprisingly similar to the Christian rapture that some believe in, but just with like slightly different details. And then the premise of the satanic pedophiles are the cabal sounds very similar to sort of like it's Jews who are the ones in control. How how much is this a recycling of other versions of these tropes and how much of it

is unique? Sure. I mean, I think it's a blend. I think QAnon plays on these centuries old tropes. For example, in the book, I talk about how so much of QAnon, I mean, I mentioned the blood drinking, right? You know, that is a direct play on this idea of the Jewish blood libel, this idea of dating back to the 13th century, that Jewish people were murdering children to get blood to make matzah bread for Passover. And that's- Everybody knows it's just wheat and water. That's the beauty of it. You know,

why would you adulterate it with blood? Who would do that? Exactly. And so, you know, this idea set off all these pogroms and all these murders. And so it resurfaced in QAnon where, you know, I think it's not accidental that so many of the villains are Jewish people in banking or the Democratic Party or Hollywood. At the same time, I think there are some new elements such as this idea of this kind of mysterious clue giver cue and this way that it it repackages so many old conspiracy theories, but in a way that that feels fresh to people and with with the concept of the storm

gives them something to look forward to. So it's not just, you know, kind of mulling over all this sad stuff, but it gives them this kind of twisted utopia that they can help bring about. Is there what is your belief now as to whether there is a person that is Q? Sure. So I think it's never been conclusively proven, but I think the best argument we've seen for who's behind Q and I should say all the people I'm going to name have denied it. But that is laid out pretty effectively in the HBO docuseries cue into the storm, laying out that there was sort of a random guy, interesting conspiracy theories who started it. And then it was hijacked from him by the people who ran a

Chan, his father and son duo, Jim and Ron Watkins. Yeah. And, you know, in that series, they there's like a quasi confession from Ron Watkins. But no one has ever come out and said, yes, I'm Q. But I think absent any other evidence, that's we can pretty much assume. I think it's fair to say that it's those two. Yeah. Ron Watkins ran for was it governor of Arizona or was it a member of Congress? I don't remember. It was a much more modest goal.

He only thought he could be a member of the House. Member of the House. Right. And I mean, one of the creepiest auras surrounding that guy of anyone I can think of. And I don't think that the Q thing came up during the race, did it? Or now I'm not sure. Not in a major way. I mean, really, when he declared in this primary, it was and, you know, he had been living in Japan for a while. This is a very kind of bizarre thing. He didn't even live in the district at the time or he had just moved there. And I think he had had this brief separate career apart from QAnon as like an election fraud expert after Trump lost.

Right. I think he thought he thought, you know, maybe I've been on One America News a couple of times. Now I can run for the House. And I talked to all these guys in Arizona, these political operatives, and they said, you know, no way this guy's going to get slaughtered. And as it turned out, he did. Yeah. When we hear sometimes we'll like send a correspondent to Trump rallies. We have this guy, Luke Beasley, who's who's been going and so on. And he'll talk to people. And very often people won't bring up anything about Q or QAnon, but they will say things like the current president is actually Trump who's controlling the military or a JFK is alive. And sometimes you can tell they don't know the difference between JFK senior and junior. And like, oh, well, one of them would be 100.

And it's all they're all very confused and you don't know where they got this stuff are. When you hear people say that stuff, is that connected to Q beliefs in some way? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think the key thing for people to understand now that we look and we say, oh, you know, I don't hear about QAnon that much. There aren't too many people like out and about with QAnon shirts. At the end of 2020, Q told his followers to stop saying they were part of QAnon. I think the sense was that the brand had been damaged. And so instead to spread these QAnon-like ideas about the cabal, JFK Jr., all these different things, but just don't say, hey, would you like to learn about

QAnon? And so now, even now, I have people say, oh, there's no QAnon. There is Q and there are the Anons. I mean, it's these kind of linguistic tricks they use. But I think even for people who have never seen QClues, this kind of stuff, I think these ideas have become mainstreamed in the in the excuse me, mainstreamed in the Republican Party. And, you know, a great way to see that is going to these Trump rallies and these events, because whether it's y'all, someone like Jordan Klepper on The Daily Show, you kind of just tap a little bit and they say, well, I don't like the corruption. And you say, yeah, I mean, by the corruption, they say, well, let me tell you about Pizzagate. Right, right. No, we've seen

we've seen that develop in real time. It's often under 60 seconds. You go from some benign comment to really, really wacky, wacky stuff. Marjorie Taylor Greene had this moment around the time that Republicans took over the House and she made it clear she wants to kind of be on the inside now and sided with Kevin McCarthy in the speaker battle where she very kind of generically said, I fell for some stuff on the Internet and it's happened to a lot of us. And it was interpreted that that was a reference to some of the QAnon type stuff that in 2018, she seemed to be kind of pushing and following. What what's your sense of that change that we're seeing in people like Green and Boebert and others with relation to their association with QAnon stuff?

Yeah. So in the book, I get into it. I mean, I think there's varying degrees of QAnon devotion. On one hand, you have Lauren Boebert, who, as far as we know, simply saw it as sort of a cynical thing to nod at and flirt with and say, well, QAnon, they got some interesting points, but maybe it's not for me. Marjorie Taylor Greene, on the other hand, I would put in like the top one or two percent of QAnon commitment. When you read her old posts, I mean, she was she knows more about QAnon than I do. And I wrote a book about it. Right. I mean, she was like getting into these kind of Talmudic debates about, you know, the origins of different Q drops and saying, well, this is a fake one. This is a real one.

I mean, she was deep, deep in it. And so now when she comes out and says, oh, I guess I retweeted the wrong YouTube video or what have you. I mean, that is just not true. When it comes to 2024 and we have Trump as a nominee, and I think that there are some in the media that are overstating the competitiveness of the primary. If you look at the recent polls, something has to really change for Trump to fall out of favor. And that could happen.

It could have. But but I do think that it's not quite as competitive as some might like it to be. If we see Trump on the path towards the 2024 nomination, do you expect to see the QAnon resurgence that we saw in previous years? Or does it seem like maybe MAGA has to a degree move beyond it? I think we're going to see I think there's a good chance that we'll see QAnon come back in a more visible way. I mean, it's kind of been bubbling online and and it's gaining on foothold again now that, you know, Elon's letting them back on Twitter and all these things. Oh, yeah. But but I do think I mean, Trump is he's signaling to QAnon constantly. I mean,

there was one study that said a third of his posts on Truth Social have been promoting QAnon, you know, either because he'll just he does it now in a way that he never did during the campaign where he would he'll just post memes of himself wearing like edited to have a QAnon button and stuff. I mean, he's really out there with that. And, you know, now he's implying that Ron DeSantis is a pedophile. He's posting these pictures of him partying with high school students. Yeah. Could this be our, you know, our beloved Ron? And, you know, I'll just say, David, I mean, this is the idea that this is not going to be a competitive primary.

I'm with you. I mean, something could change, but people just you've got to watch Ron DeSantis talk. And you think, I mean, this guy's going to go up against Trump. I don't think so. That's interesting. Let's talk about that a little bit. You cover these issues as well. I understand you haven't announced and you've got 30, 40 percent in some polls that that's pretty remarkable stuff. I mean, there's nobody's going to deny that. The question is, by announcing, do you take any of Trump's support or is it going to be a consolidation of the existing non-Trump electorate? And I think it's it's sort of the latter. And when I think about the complete lack of charisma that DeSantis

has and he sort of expressed a desire to go high and not stoop to Trump's level, which is fine in some general, you know, vague, vague sense. But practically speaking, I don't think it's going to work the numbers in his favor if that's the way the primary goes. I think Trump will just crush him. Yeah, I mean, you see these and these are all anecdotal things. But, you know, there was recently that clip on Fox News, which we know is trying to favor DeSantis.

Yeah. Where Brian Kilmeade is in a diner saying, oh, you know, primary is coming up and he just says it's here. And everyone goes, Trump, Trump, Trump. So it's just I think, you know, and, you know, he's going to have to campaign at some point. I think he's kind of awkward enough that they're going to try to keep him from doing much retail campaigning. But there's going to be some video where he just looks weird. And I mean, and then Trump's just going to say, you know, look at me, Balran. Yeah. And by the way, not I couldn't care less about this, but it's wild that in the midst of all of the anti-drag stuff, DeSantis seems to regularly wear like high heeled cowboy boots,

which I know is a whole thing. And like, I it doesn't bother me. It's just interesting how they fall into these weird things where it seems like, is that going to help you knowing what the kind of dialogue is right now with some of these issues among the people who support Trump to begin with? It all seems awkward. It does seem awkward. I mean, there's also that picture of, you know, Biden's hugging people and DeSantis is kind of stumping by. Yeah, I mean, it is. I think basically what's going on is I think the conservative intellectuals and media are smart enough to realize that I think DeSantis would be a more effective and potentially more vicious Trump. Right. I mean, if we just see the policies he's doing are very or Orban ask.

Oh, yeah. You know, he has all these conservative intellectuals and I use that term lightly, like Chris Rufo. He's, you know, he's a he's making university trustees and stuff to really like kind of crack the whip on these liberal institutions. Whereas Trump, you know, if he's president, he'll be stewing over Graydon Carter again, you know, getting in his own way. So I think they want to do it. But it seems there's no evidence. I think the grassroots wants to move on. No, I think that that's that that's absolutely the case. The book is Trust the Plan, the Rise of QAnon and the Conspiracy that Unhinged America. We've been speaking with the book's author, Will Sommer, who's also a politics reporter for The Daily Beast and co-hosts the Fever Dreams podcast. Will, always great speaking to you. Really appreciate it. David,

thanks for having me. As many of my viewers and listeners, of course, know, I have many family members who work in the field of mental health, and I think one of the most important things that we can do is to both increase access and reduce stigma when it comes to mental health services. And that's why I am thrilled that one of our sponsors today is BetterHelp. BetterHelp is the world's largest therapy service, and it is 100 percent online. With BetterHelp, you can tap into a network of over 25000 licensed and experienced therapists, an important word, therapists who can help you with a wide range of issues. You answer a few questions about your needs and your preferences and better help

will match you with a therapist that meets your needs. You can then talk to your therapist, however you feel comfortable. It could be text, could be chat, phone, video call. You can message your therapist anytime. You can schedule live sessions when it's convenient. And if your therapist isn't the right fit for any reason, you can switch to a new therapist at no additional charge. With better help, you get the same professionalism and quality you expect from in-office therapy, but it's on your schedule and it's at a more affordable price. Get 10% off your first month at BetterHelp.com slash Pacman. That's BetterHelp.com slash Pacman. That's better. H.E.L.P. Dotcom slash Pacman for 10 percent off your first month. The link is in the podcast notes. This is my favorite clip of the week, possibly of the month,

maybe of 2023 so far. You're going to just sit down for this one, OK, if I told you that my racial background was cock a sword, what would you think? You'd think something's not right. You'd think, oh, boy, David Pakman, sir, the wheel is spinning, but the hamster is dead. You would think something was very wrong with me. Well, that is exactly the word that Newsmax guest Vernon Jones used during a segment on Newsmax about when Joe Biden said, I'm a white boy, but I'm not dumb or something along those lines. You have to see this. Vernon Jones. Try God, I think I might just play it and not even explain it. I'll explain it later. OK, here's Vernon Jones telling us what are the three races?

What are the three races? This is what he said yesterday. He said, I'm a what at this church? I'm a white boy, but I'm not stupid. Vernon, I mean, where are they? Let me drop back for a second. First of all, Jason, my good friend, being Latino is no race. There's only three races, Monogord, Caucasord and Negroid.

Oh, my God. Oh, dear God. There are three races, folks, Monogord, Caucasord and negroid. OK, do you know where this comes from? As Dave Weigel pointed out, our friend Dave Weigel, this is not a random guy. This is Vernon Jones, who was endorsed by Trump in 2022. He thankfully lost his primary. Here's what Vernon Jones is talking about. There is this old 1780s race idea that there are essentially three races. Those three races are Caucasoid, Mongoloid and Negroid, or as it was originally called Ethiopian. This is from the 1780s. It comes from the Got Jen School of History. It was then later developed further and it became one of these racist ideologies during the age of colonialism. OK, so it's insane that Vernon Jones, particularly as a black man, is saying this is the reality about race. But it's extra insane that he's mangling beyond recognition the names of these races. Cock a sword. What on earth? I mean,

it sounds like it sounds like when when little boys play swords, if you know what I'm talking about. It's insane. Let's play it one more time. Absolutely my favorite clip maybe of the year so far. Vernon, I mean, let me drop back for a second. First of all, Jason, my good friend, drop back to contextualize caucus or for us being Latinos, no race. There's only three races, Monaco, Monacoursord, and negroid. Oh, God. Well, you couldn't write this stuff. But liberals create this whole new class or new race called Latinos. They are no race.

Right. And it is very clear. He did say that Hispanics are more diverse in their thinking than African-Americans, not diverse in where they come from. As a matter of fact, Spaniards have nothing to do with Mexicans and they all speak the same language. Well, I think I think Spaniards have something to do with Mexicans. If you study the history of the Spanish, why do you think that Spanish is spoken in most but not all Central and South American countries? Now, of course, now in Mexico, the population is many.

You have a lot of multiracialism in Mexico, which is folks from Spain who then had kids with those populations that were already in what is now Mexico. But what has has anyone ever heard a dumber analysis of whatever this is? Speaker 4 Created this race if you and made it unique based on you speaking Hispanic or speaking. Speaker 1 I speak Hispanic. That's exactly right. Speaker 4 Spanish. So let's be clear about that, too. Speaker. This is a verbal inkblot. This is just a mess. Joe Biden stands in front of a black college like Morehouse and Spelman. He says that the reason why black businesses aren't as successful as whites is because they don't have lawyers and they don't have accountants. That is racist. That's your time. Naive. He is. And to say he's 80 now saying that,

how about when Joe wasn't 80, when Joe didn't want black people to go in his neighborhood and go to school? I didn't say all of Harrison. So Joe has a long history of bigotry. Joe has a long bigotry. All right. Anyway, I want you to email me. Let me know if there was or if you were running a 5K or playing intramural hockey, are you going to be on Monogord or do you prefer to be on what I believe is the winning team, the Cockaswords? I know I know where I'm going with this one, folks. You let me know, folks. There is trouble brewing. I am in very much trouble right now. Glenn Greenwald and Brianna Joy Gray are coming for me because I don't think Marianne Williamson is a good candidate. Let's back up a little bit. I tweeted yesterday that I see a lot of Tulsi Gabbard energy moving towards Marianne Williamson. There were a bunch of people who fell

for Tulsi in 2020. And now, of course, that she's like an anti-vax Republican CPAC speaker. You know, it's completely unhinged what's happened with Tulsi. Some of the Tulsi people have realized, all right, we got to get away from Tulsi. Let's go behind someone else. And so some of that energy is moving behind Marianne Williamson. Now, I know that in 2020, Glenn Greenwald was at least a casual fan of Tulsi. I have no idea on Brianna Joy Gray. I'm not super familiar with her. I think she's come up once before on the show, like a couple of years ago, but I don't know too much about her. So we did a segment where I told you, as I always do, because I'm honest, I'm not going to pretend. Right. I told you I'm not super impressed with Marianne Williamson's candidacy. I think she has every right to run. Anybody who wants to run should. This is America. She should be able to present her views. She should run as a Democrat or as an independent

or as a Republican, whatever she wants. I defend it. I support it. This is what America is about. And I also mentioned that personally, it's not for me. Her woo woo pseudoscience background isn't for me. She has the right ideas on a number of political issues, but that doesn't mean I would make her president. She has no experience. She has no expertise. She has no qualifications and she has no sort of understanding of the way politics works. So might you go to like a Reiki practitioner and they're like, hey, I'm for Medicare for all. Great. Doesn't mean you make them president. Doesn't mean you support them in a primary. But that's all I was saying. And anybody is free to do, of course, whatever they want. Glenn Greenwald didn't like Glenn Greenwald

responded to this on Twitter by saying, quote, those quotes, Marianne Williamson quotes I read that sounded like Deepak Chopra. Glenn says those quotes aren't remotely kooky. They're reflective of someone engaging the vast mysteries of life via spirituality and transcendence. But to utterly conventional midwits. He's talking about me to utterly conventional midwits serving as normalcy enforcers. David Pakman, anything beyond New York Times op ed page Drek seems, quote, crazy. So Glenn doesn't agree with me. And then Brianna Joy Gray, who I think is a podcaster and I guess is in league with some of these folks. I'm not super familiar with her. She tweets about this in response to Glenn.

Biden guy wants to vote for Biden again. This is why part of the left is dead. And it's like, which are you talking about? The only part of the left that ever wins that ever quite literally ever wins. She's saying that part of the left is dead. The only part that ever wins, that ever quite literally ever wins. She's saying that part of the left is dead. The only part that ever wins anything. Oh, OK. Very interesting. As far as I know, that tweet was not particularly well received. And Brianna subsequently deleted it. OK, so let's again just make sure we're all on the same page. Biden wasn't my guy in the primary. I'm just not delusional. OK, Marianne Williamson has no experience relevant to being president of the United States. If you tell me, hey, you know what, David, we have too many like lawyers

who are presidents or business people who are president. We need people from different backgrounds. I'm with you. I want scientists as presidents. I want, you know, people who have led nonprofits would be great for presidents. I would like to see people from the field of education be president. There's I'm with you. We have too narrow a scope for people that eventually become president. But Marianne Williamson has no relevant experience, no relevant expertise, no qualifications, and also none of the relationships that would make you a more effective president. She's for Medicare for all. That's great. She believes climate change should be taken seriously. Great. But she's not going to push Biden to the left because she's not even going to debate Biden. If Biden runs for reelection, there's not going to be a real primary.

She's not going to debate Biden. If you came to me and you said, David, Katie Porter, oh, now we're talking. OK, now we're talking. If you said, David, Stacey Abrams, not only an extremely skilled organizer, but deep policy knowledge and understands the system. I'm Stacey Abrams. Absolutely. But Marianne Williamson is not for me. So if the sort of followers of people in the Greenwald universe catch wind of this, they'll probably come after me pretty hard, but I'm completely comfortable with that. Bring it on. This is my view. Marianne Williamson. I support her having

a candidacy if that's what she wants. Gosh, darn it. There's nothing more American than that. But it's just not for me. We have a voicemail number. That number is two one nine two. David P. Here's the egg man weighing in about the right wingers were like laughing at Joe Biden because he went to dinner with Jill and they ordered the same entree. It's really weird. And the egg man called in about it. Hi, Dave. President Joseph R. Biden Jr. and his wife, Jill, went out to dinner together.

They ordered the same entree and people are making fun of them for it or they're being ripped apart. Basically, I just spilled my water. That's what happened. Just so you know, for eating the same thing. And I just want to say, I think that's adorable. That's called, I don't know, love or some kind of some kind of symbolic, I don't know, something together. And I just want to ask, do you think Trump even has a meal with his wife? No. No. OK, so Eggman weighing in on an important issue, I I couldn't possibly more strongly

defend Joe and Jill ordering the same entree. Now, I think they had two different appetizers so that there's that personally ordering the same entree as my girlfriend is a no. And the reason there's actually a really interesting article that's called like the economics, the economics of dining out as a couple or something like that. Yes, it's a Bloomberg article about seven years old, the economics of dining as a couple. And it explains that one of the great things, one of the great things about dining dining as a couple. And it explains that one of the great things, one of the great things about dining out as a couple is you have the ability to sample multiple

dishes. It's very common that at a good restaurant, there's more than one thing that you want. And when will you be back? And it's a little bit, you know, I'm not going to be ordering two entrees. That's for sure. So what I like to do is always order something different from what my girlfriend gets so that we can share so that we can try it. And so sometimes I'll say, you know, I'm thinking about thinking about getting the fish and chips and she'll say, I'm getting the fish and chips. I was like, great, you get the fish and chips. I will get something else. So now we can try the fish and chips and we can try the other thing. As far as Joe and Jill Biden doing it, more power to them. Absolutely more. I have no problem. And right wingers attacking them for it is a joke. We've got a great bonus show for you today. We are going to talk about Lori Lightfoot losing her bid to remain mayor of

Chicago. We are going to talk about why Americans will lose three billion dollars in food stamp benefits starting in March. And Republicans seem to keep forgetting who the president was in 2020. I'll tell you what I mean on today's bonus show. Don't miss the bonus show. You can sign up at join Pacman dot com and you will get instant access to the bonus show that is hated by conspiracy theorist Alex Jones. Oh, the bonus show where you want to make money. Yeah. Everybody else that makes money to fund themselves is bad. Yeah. Join Pacman dot com. Coupon code 24 starts now. I'll see you then.