The David Pakman Show - 3/6/24: Trump dominates, Nikki quits, Biden raises insane money

Episode Date: March 6, 2024

-- On the Show: -- Daniel Dennett, philosopher, cognitive scientist known for his work on consciousness, evolution, and the philosophy of the mind, and author of numerous books, most recently I've Been Thinking, joins David to discuss artificial intelligence, New Atheism, the decline of religion in the United States, and more. Get the book: https://amzn.to/3P8gmGg -- Failed former President Donald Trump sweeps all Super Tuesday Republican primaries other than Vermont, which Nikki Haley wins, but Haley will drop out of the race and not immediately endorse Trump -- Donald Trump is visibly confused and incoherent at his Super Tuesday "victory" speech at Mar-a-Lago in Florida -- Republican Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene tells an interviewer to "f*ck off" when asked about her Jewish space laser conspiracy theory -- Independent Senator Kyrsten Sinema announces she will not be seeking re-election, as her re-election seemed increasingly unlikely as she faced Republican challenger Kari Lake and Democratic challenger Ruben Gallego -- Supporters of Donald Trump are interviewed in Virginia, reminding us why they are such a dangerous voting block -- Podcaster, MMA analyst, and comedian Joe Rogan says the country needs religion, and needs Jesus - On the Bonus Show: German man gets 217 COVID vaccines in 29 months, Bitcoin hits record high, Democratic Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is heckled and confronted at a movie theater over her alleged positions on the Israeli-Gaza conflict, much more... 🌱 Ounce of Hope: Get a THC Seltzer for just $5 at https://ounceofhope.com 💪 Athletic Greens is offering FREE year-supply of Vitamin D at https://athleticgreens.com/pakman 💻 Stay protected! Try our sponsor Aura FREE for 2 weeks at https://aura.com/pakman 🪒 Henson Shaving: Use code PAKMAN for FREE blades at https://hensonshaving.com/pakman 👍 Manscaped: Use code PAKMAN for 20% off & free shipping at https://manscaped.com ✉️ StartMail: Get 50% OFF a year subscription at https://startmail.com/pakman -- Become a Supporter: http://www.davidpakman.com/membership -- Subscribe on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/thedavidpakmanshow -- Subscribe to Pakman Live: https://www.youtube.com/pakmanlive -- Follow us on Twitter: http://twitter.com/davidpakmanshow -- Like us on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/davidpakmanshow -- Leave us a message at The David Pakman Show Voicemail Line (219)-2DAVIDP

Speaker 1 Well, we're at the end of the line for the Republican primary. Donald Trump almost completely sweeping Super Tuesday yesterday, a single day with the most number of primaries in the entire primary season. Nikki Haley finally notching one win, but it is reported that she is getting out as we speak because of the timing of of her speech. I don't have video of it because it's happening as we tape the show, but she is indeed getting out. So let's review Super Tuesday. Donald Trump winning Maine, Massachusetts, Minnesota, Virginia. Oh, sorry.

People can't even see what I'm talking about. There it is. Maine, Massachusetts, Minnesota, Virginia, North Carolina, Tennessee, Alabama, Arkansas, Oklahoma, Texas, Colorado, Utah, California and Alaska. But Nikki Haley getting a win in the great state of Vermont, 40, basically 50 to 46. And that will do it for Nikki Haley. The big report from The Wall Street Journal, Nikki Haley to exit Republican presidential race.

She is not immediately going to be endorsing Donald Trump. And I think that that is interesting. We will talk about that in a moment. Here is MSNBC's call that Nikki Haley gets a win. Good for her. Following the decision to the great state of Vermont, the Green Mountain State. There you go. You got it. She's still the Republican presidential contest in the great state of Vermont, famous for all sorts of things, including really, really, really excellent beer.

It is now also famous as the first state that has been won by Nikki Haley in the twenty twenty four Republican presidential nominating contest. So far, it is the District of Columbia and the state of Vermont that have been won by Nikki Haley. So listen, there is no doubt that there is significant discontent in the Republican Party with Trump. In many states, Nikki Haley losing, but getting 40 percent. In some states, she got crushed like 80 to 20, which is which is pretty bad. So here's the deal. I understand Nikki Haley not endorsing Trump because of all the things she

said about how terrible and disastrous he would be. At the same time, if her approach is I want to get enough attention and just sort of be here in case Trump dies or is in prison and the Republicans want to go in a different direction. If you don't endorse Trump at some point, is MAGA world going to go to you if something happens to Trump or are they going to go to a MAGA? Regardless, the data do suggest a problem for Donald Trump in November. And the problem is that in some states, according to exit polls, Nikki Haley supporters are very unlikely to support Donald Trump. In some, they just are saying, I'm not committed to supporting the Republican at all. North Carolina, for example, yesterday had exit polls which found that 78 percent of Nikki Haley voters would not commit to backing the Republican nominee no matter who it is. In other words, they might or they might not.

So that is potentially a problem for Trump. There's problems for everybody here. The problem for Nikki Haley is that it's not obvious that even if something happens to Trump, the Republican Party is going to go to her because of her critiques of Trump during the primary. The problem for Trump is that it looks like a lot of Nikki Haley voters are not necessarily going to vote for him. So my priority is denying either of these people, Haley or Trump, the presidency. And it seems as though they both in their respective ways may help us to achieve that if we get out and vote. So those are the results. Nikki Haley out, not immediately endorsing Trump. What did Trump have to say about his victories yesterday? Let's talk about that.

Trump came out after winning all but one of the Super Tuesday primaries and gave what I believe is technically called a speech by the definition of it. However, it was barely a speech. Trump visibly confused, barely functional, as low energy as we have seen him. I don't know that I've seen Trump this low energy the entire primary. Remember that Dr. John Gartner, who believes that Trump has a hypomania situation, weighed in on upper and downer Trump. It seemed to mostly be downer Trump last night, except when he got hopped up at a couple of moments. Trump did shout out his kids yesterday. I don't think he forgot any of his

kids. Remember last week he forgot Eric, who was on stage, but a conspicuous absence of Melania Trump continuing on the campaign trail. This has been a day that we we've been waiting for. I want to thank my family for being here. It's a great family. I have a great family. Right. They've had it very easy since I decided to run for politics.

They say, thanks a lot, Dad. We appreciate it. But they're strong and they're very capable people and they they love the country. They really do love the country. So the conspicuous absence of any mention or presence of Melania Trump and this continues to be a story occasionally mentioning her, but she is nowhere, nowhere to be seen. Trump continuing to tell the absolutely baseless lie that the reason the stock market is doing well is because of the expectation that he

will be the president. People say a lot of experts have said the stock market's the only thing that's doing well and that's doing well because our poll numbers are so much higher than Joe Biden's. He's the worst president in the history of our country. Now you need only look at the historical stock market return under Democrats versus Republicans to realize that it is common. It's expected at this point that the stock market does better under Democratic presidents. Run the numbers yourself. You can do this.

You can go and look at stock market performance and who was president. And you will find that under Republican presidents, the stock market does not do as well as under Democratic presidents. So this claim from Trump completely without any basis. And by the way, Trump talking about the stock market's doing well. The reality is that every indicator economically looks good. Stock market GDP, inflation down, unemployment down, wage growth up, trade balance looking very reasonable and healthy.

And the idea that this is all because of the expectation businesses are doing really well because they expect Trump to be back years from now. When those numbers started, it doesn't make any sense. Trump talking about big, fat, beautiful futures and how he would pay people to be their age. There's a room chock full of incredible, talented people like some of the guys standing right in front of me. Right. Big, big futures, big, fat, beautiful futures. Oh, I'd love to be your age.

I'd pay you a lot of money to be your age. But we have we have some tremendously talented people in this lot of talent in the room for sure. And yet Donald Trump's speech, mostly our friend Aaron Ruppar on Twitter called it American Carnage 2.0. These are basically Trump's speeches now, just lurid anecdotes out of context about how horrible everything is in the country, despite things being pretty good. Not perfect, not perfect, but pretty good.

Speaker 4 New category of crime, and it's violent where they'll stand in the middle of a street and have fistfights with police officers. And if they did that in their countries from where they came, they'd be killed instantly, instantly. They wouldn't do that. So the world is laughing at us. The world is taking advantage of us. The world is laughing at us and I'm getting the emails. I get them from Denmark and Australia and Norway and Germany and I get them from everywhere.

The world is laughing. And what they're laughing at is that after year after year after year of this Trump insanity, Trump doing nothing tangible for the betterment of the country, Trump failing on every major campaign promise, Trump showing himself to be the authoritarian extremist that we believed and suspected he was, that Republicans are going to vote for him again and that the country may elect him again. That's what the world is actually laughing at. Trump with his revisionist history continuing, saying we had great unity in the United States

when he was president. I don't remember that. And people were calling me that I would have said will never happen. It'll never happen. They wanted to get together. African-American, Asian-American, Hispanic-American women, men, people with diplomas from the best schools in the world and people that didn't graduate from high school. Every single group was doing better than ever before.

And it was a beautiful thing. Our country was coming together. Now sniffing aside, and Trump was extra sniffy yesterday, and we know that there's all sorts of speculation what people attribute that to. I do not remember 2017 nor 2018 nor 2019 and certainly not 2020 as being times of great American unity. In fact, I remember quite the opposite, with Trump being maybe the most divisive figure in American politics in a very long time. I mean, look at Bush, right? The prior Republican president before Trump started wars that made no sense. Tax cuts for the rich, you know, all and still was not nearly as divisive as Trump. Lastly,

Trump is making clear he is going to do this militarized mass deportation thing. And he says he has to do it because the country is dying. Going to stop and we're going to close our borders. We're going to have to deport a lot of people, a lot of bad people, because our countries can't live like this. Our cities, our cities are choking to death. Our states are dying. And frankly, our country is dying and we're going to make America great again. You know, when he says everything is dying and frankly, our country is dying and we're going to make America great again. Speaker 1 You know, when he says everything is dying and everything's terrible, you'd think we'd be able to find it in some metric, right? He would be able to say, wow,

look at these five indicators. But you'd think if things are really so terrible, everybody must be out of a job, right? No. Turns out that that's not the case. Unemployment is very low. Well, it must be that violent crime is up, right? No violent crime is down dramatically. Well, there must be no production business wise. GDP must be down, right? No, no. GDP is up. Well, I'm sure inflation is out of control. No, inflation is down like two thirds to about three percent. So what is it exactly that's going so terribly? I don't know.

It just is. And that's what he has to insist on. A sad state of affairs. Trump sweeping everything but Vermont and on goes the Trump train, but struggling to raise money. And we'll talk about that a little bit later on in the show. One little anecdote from last night, just to add some texture, color and shape to the insane proceedings surrounding the Trump campaign. Radical and repugnant reactionary Republican Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene was interviewed

by the news agents and she was asked, why do you love conspiracy theories so much? And she tells the host, Emily Maitlis, to F off. Now, just as a reminder, we are bleeping the F bomb because the program is on a bunch of radio and television stations subject to FCC regulations. We don't want to get them in trouble when F bombs squeak out on the show. It's a problem for them. It's not a good thing. So here is Marjorie Taylor Greene doesn't like the question. And can you tell me why so many people that support Donald Trump love conspiracy theories, including yourself? He seems to attract lots of conspiracy theorists. Well, let me tell you, you're a conspiracy theorist and the left and the media

spreads more conspiracy theories. We like the truth. We like supporting our Constitution, our freedoms in America first. So what about Jewish space lasers? Tell us about your space. No, why don't you? Why don't you go talk about Jewish space lasers? And really, why don't you? How about that?

Thanks. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Yes. So Marjorie Taylor Greene, just these people don't like any serious interviewer question. And we've seen this before with Marjorie Taylor Greene, just these people don't like any serious interview or question. And we've seen this before with Marjorie Taylor Greene. We've seen it with Trump. We've seen it with others. They as soon as you ask a real question and by the way, this isn't even really the toughest question in the sense that Marjorie Taylor Greene could just lie and go, listen,

I was taken out of context. Obviously, there's no literal Jewish space. I don't know. She could lie and come up with something. But any actual question that puts them in a position of having to defend the things that they've said, the things they believe, the things they advocate for, their policy positions, to the extent they have them, they immediately turn it around and say your interviews are B.S., your media outlet is B.S. It's part of the liberal media. It's the fake news media. It's all of that. They would do so much better for themselves if they were ready to take on these sorts

of questions and say, hey, you know what? We've got hunger. We've got homelessness. We've got this, that the other thing. Those are the things. What I'm saying is you could be prepped from a media training standpoint to actually come off looking like the adult rather than the child telling the interviewer to F off. So Marjorie Taylor Greene giving us exactly what we expect and a lot of problems for some of the MAGA diehards now, as they will increasingly hopefully

have to defend some of the things that they've said. Let's take a very quick break after the break. Kyrsten Sinema says, I'm out. We'll tell you why and the implications in Arizona. Staying healthy is often about what is a sustainable habit, one that works for you, something you'll stick to. I have a scoop of AG one in the morning before my infamous cappuccino. Each serving of AG one just gets me super simply the vitamins, minerals, pre and probiotics that I'm looking for. It's just like a foundation for the entire day. And it's super

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Democrat turned independent Kyrsten Sinema has announced she's quitting the Senate. She's not going to be running for reelection. She gave a three minute statement published on X explaining why I can sum up this message in just a few words. I'm going to lose. So I'm quitting. That's the speech. Now, let's listen to what she actually said.

I'll remind you that Kyrsten Sinema was always more of a centrist or right leaning Democrat, a Democrat in name only, might we say? I don't know. And she switched from the Democratic Party to being an independent. We know that she is facing a very heavily contested Senate reelection with Democratic Congressman Ruben Gallego running against her failed Arizona gubernatorial Republican candidate Carrie Lake running against her. It didn't look good for Sinema.

She was going to lose. So she's getting out. Take a listen to her explanation. In 2017, I warned we were approaching a crossroads. Our democracy was weakened by government dysfunction and the constant pull to the extremes by both political parties. I promised I would do my best to fix it, to protect and defend our Constitution, to listen to others without judging, to focus on what unites us and to make Americans

lives better through listening, understanding and compromise. By the way, this is the epitome of the word salad teleprompter speech that doesn't even approach the reality, which is I'm about to lose and I can probably get a lucrative lobbying gig by quitting. Delivered tangible results that make America safer, stronger and more prosperous. Yet, despite modernizing our infrastructure, ensuring clean water, delivering good jobs and safer communities, Americans still choose to retreat farther to their partisan corners. These solutions are considered failures, either because they're too much or not nearly enough. It's all or nothing. The outcome, less important than beating the other

guy. The only political victories that matter these days are symbolic, attacking your opponents on cable news or social media. Compromise is a dirty word. We've arrived at that crossroad and we chose anger and division. I believe in my approach, but it's not what America wants right now. I love Arizona and I am so proud of what we've delivered. Because I choose civility, understanding, listening, working together to get stuff done. I will leave the Senate at the end of this year. All right. So she goes on a couple more minutes. It's really not worth listening to because it's just more of I'm so great, but it's just not what America wants right now. They want a different approach. So I'm getting out. So for her, it makes perfect sense. She was going to lose.

She is probably going to be able to get some lucrative consulting or lobbying gig. And the unfortunate thing is it's we might say to ourselves, oh, this is great news for Ruben Gallego and terrible news for Carrie Lake. It's it's not clear that that's actually the case. If we look at the polling, the inclusion, if you compare two way polls to three way polls in that race, it basically makes no difference. And this is what we've suspected for a while. For a while, the data have suggested that Kyrsten Sinema was pulling about equal support

from Democrats and Republicans, meaning that with her in the race, it's Carrie Lake plus a few or a guy plus a few. And without her in the race, it's basically the same. So if you look at the latest Rasmussen poll, if you include Sinema Lake is winning by four. If you don't include Sinema Lake is winning by three. Almost no difference. Or if you look at the Emerson College poll, if you don't include cinema, it's gay ego plus seven. If you do include cinema, it's gay ego plus six. So the idea here is it's not obvious that this makes a difference. But cinema getting out at least simplifies the math and the approach, which is instead of having to distinguish yourself from two people, you only now, if you're a guy, you have to distinguish yourself

from Cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs, Carrie Lake, who insists that she won the gubernatorial race in 2020, despite obviously having lost in the sense that Katie Hobbs got more votes. And that's how we determine who has won. So we will follow this one very closely. It is one of these situations where nominally Sinema was a Democrat. Then she bailed. So is it a Democratic seat that we're trying to hold? Kinda.

But now it also will be an open seat. So the right move for Sinema, she really she is really the worst of politics. And by the way, her reputation as someone who treats her staff in a despicable and disgusting way and is one of the most difficult egocentric narcissists to work for in the Senate. Nothing I've ever heard about her makes me think she's the sort of representation that Arizona should have. But I'll tell you this. Carrie Lake is also not the representation Arizona should have. But I'll tell you this. Carrie Lake is also not the representation Arizona should have. Ruben Gallego, a good guy, has been a guest on this program. Another important race that we can focus in on.

Trump supporters were interviewed in Virginia after one of Trump's rallies and also yesterday on voting day, Super Tuesday by the Richmond Times Dispatch. And this is really good stuff. I'm going to play a few of these clips for you. The the interviewers tried to focus in on policy. And it is really interesting to hear these voters unable to really articulate what policy of Trump's do you like often just spitting out immigration without any real connection to policy? It's a reminder of where

this party is right now. It's a sad state of affairs. Let's take a listen to this first interview with a guy named Tom. It was good. I've watched 80 of them on TV. Yeah, it was excellent being here. Different. Very cool. Yeah. Catch catching the energy of the crowd and everything like that. Good luck, man. A lot of people want selfies. I do it for a business. Hey, you got a good look. And so what are some of the policies that you feel that you support?

Being here. Common sense. The border thing is really bothersome. Speaker 1 Speaker 2 Speaker 3 Speaker 1 Speaker 4 Speaker 5 Speaker 6 Speaker 7 Speaker 8 Speaker 9 Speaker 10 Speaker 11 Speaker 12 Right. Relative to what's there now. That's the policy, right? The the I support the common sense and the border thing. Now, I would be curious whether this guy can even articulate what is border policy now? What would Trump do? How would that help? What does it mean to help?

But I don't think that that's a conversation that these folks are able, willing or interested in even having. And this was the theme. Here's a guy named Paul interviewed and again asked about policy. I don't have no idea. The economy or something. Take a listen. Speaker 4 It's great. It's great to see. I feel like he's one of the greatest people I've ever had. And he's sticking his neck out, at least I could do this show up and show a little spin. For sure. So is this so strong, someone that you're going to support, obviously, in the upcoming?

Yes. It's a no brainer. Now he's not wrong. It is a no brainer to support Trump. You must not have a functioning brain if you're supporting Trump. I don't think that's what this guy means. But then he's asked, well, OK, if it's a no brainer, tell me about all the policies you like.

What are some of the policies that you feel are very important to you that Trump supports the economy and the economy in general? Well, what policy is that? I don't know. You can't even really have a conversation with these folks. What policy do you support? The economy? What?

What are you talking about, sir? This is a common sense approach. You know, price and energy goes up. Everything goes up. The price and energy. That's very good for sure. The border, of course, is horrible. So again, it's there's just nothing there. It's it's completely vapid. I voted for him last time. I liked how things were going. So again, it's there's just nothing there.

It's it's completely vapid. It's like steam just evaporating into the ether. The economy, you know, let's bring energy prices down. I mean, get inflation adjusted. Gas is quite affordable right now. I don't know what he's talking about. The border. I don't know. Yeah, the border is just, yeah, we got to do it. We got to do it. Things were good. Wow. Here's Lillian.

Lillian is asked about policy. She says illegal immigrants and oil and we need gas. Wow. Speaker 4 I think this is spectacular. Yeah. This is the first time energy. Yes. First time. And how would you go to another one? Definitely. And so what are some of the policies that you feel Donald Trump is, why you would vote for him? Definitely the illegal immigrants. Okay. That's the big one.

And the oil. And the oil. And oil. We need gas. And Biden sucks. Illegal immigrants, oil. We need gas. And Biden sucks. And again, what do you believe is the current policy at the border, Lillian? What is it that Trump has said he would do? How would that help you? And when it comes to oil, did you know that oil production was the highest

in American history last year under Joe Biden? In 2023, the U.S. produced more oil than in any previous year. And in 2023, the U.S. produced more oil than any other country in the world in 2023. But she says, well, we need we need oil, we need gas and Biden sucks. We've got to make them irrelevant. We're not changing Lillian's mind. We just need to get out and vote so that her vote doesn't matter. Here's a guy named Jamal also just seems very confused when asked about policy. Speaker 4 The reason I have this is because often they like to sit there and commit a bunch of crime and get away with it. I said I'd like to sit down and commit a bunch of crime and get away with it. I said I'd like to look down over in the world areas and try it.

And I'm still arrested quick, fast and in a hurry. And they won't be out of prison as quick. Are there any particular issues that are particularly important to you? There's about a couple, a few of them, actually. So the top three will be our inflation because that's out of control. Now, what's interesting about this gentleman mentioning inflation? I would love it when these folks cite that we need Trump because of inflation. Sort of a three part question.

Number one, do you know what the inflation rate is right now? I assume when we tell them it's like three percent, they would just say, no, that's fake. So we might not get anywhere. But first, sort of like an orienting question would be, OK, you want Trump because inflation is too high. What's the current inflation rate? If we can get them to understand or they maybe they know what the inflation rate is, then I would say, what should it what would you like to see inflation be? Because the target inflation is typically between two and three percent. We're basically there. That's what's considered healthy in the paradigm of standard neoclassical economics.

So what is the inflation rate you would want? And then third question would be, what policy of Trump's do you believe would bring down inflation? Because, in fact, Trump's tariff scheme would increase inflation. So as is almost always the case, do they have the facts? Do they understand anything or does it not even really matter? And these are just talking points. Now, let me say one other thing about immigration as something these voters cite, including

this last guy who we're about to listen to when they talk about the border. We all know the economy is pretty good. Things are pretty stable. There's a lot of things that are just they're fine. Nothing's perfect, but it's fine. The Republican Party has done a very good job of convincing these folks. Forget about all of that. Just think about and talk about the border. So even though we all know this is not the most important issue, just telling them that doesn't work. The fact that every single one of these voters says, oh, the border is already a win for the Republican Party in that they've convinced these voters to think about that and that

alone. Let's listen to this last guy. All right. Can you tell me why you voted for Donald Trump today? Yeah, I voted really for two reasons. One is to to fix our immigration issue, which is a big problem for the country. And of course, again, what's the issue? Which Trump policy do you like? Tell me exactly what you're what you're what you're voting for here. And secondarily, we needed somebody with the

competence to lower inflation across the United States of America. And same stuff on inflation, sir. What do you think the inflation rate is now? What do you think it should be? I mean, he couldn't possibly know what's going on if he says that mentioned how hard it is for young young people, grads to to buy houses right now. What do you want to say? I have five children between the ages of 21 and 31. And it's very difficult over the last few years for them to pay rent or to buy a home.

And so the market has outpriced them, which means parents are having to help their kids, even kids that have college-educated backgrounds and are working in the workforce today. So we need somebody to really attack the underlying cause of inflation. You know, what's interesting about that is inflation is down. But the property, the real estate affordability crisis, it's not something Republicans have any path to fixing. What's actually interesting is when you get this guy really talking about a specific problem, my kids and other kids, they can't afford to move out on their own because real estate is so

expensive. It is only the left that has ideas for that. We've got to dramatically increase the housing supply. That is not something that is easy to do with the way that we have zoning done in so many cities and towns and states. It's mostly done at the municipal level. I don't hear anything from Republicans about that and building more housing supply. When we look at private equity and Wall Street buying up hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands

of properties, that's driving the price up. When we look at no serious rent controls in situations where it makes sense. It's Republicans who say let the free market blow a little. So when he finally gets to something, it's only Democrats who actually have some ideas on what to do there. So it's sad. It's depressing. We're not going to deprogram these people in the next seven and a half or eight months. So we've all got to get out and vote. That's the takeaway. After the break, I will be joined by the great Daniel Dennett. Stay tuned. man scapes, new lawnmower, 5.0 trimmer is your key to looking and feeling good all over. It's equipped with two skin safe blade heads, a standard one for taking a little off the top and a new foil blade to go smooth wherever you want. And it's waterproof so you can use it in the shower for guys who want to be full grooming experience. Go Manscaped's performance package 5.0, which comes with

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His latest book, I've Been Thinking, is a memoir that reflects on his work on consciousness, evolution, the philosophy of mind. His latest book, I've Been Thinking, is a memoir that reflects on his career and ideas. So great having you on. I really do appreciate your time. Well, I'm delighted to be with you. Maybe to start with, because it's so topical, you've increasingly talked about artificial intelligence. Some of your concerns are interesting to me because they're not the generic, often repeated ones that are often portrayed right now in popular culture. So let me just open it up to you generally. What do you think about the technology?

What do you see as the more interesting upsides? But what are your concerns? Well, my biggest concern is that people are looking too far ahead. People who are worried about robots taking over and enslaving us in 20 years or 30 years or 10 years. We've got a problem right now. I mean, it may even be too late. And that's what we have to work on. And that's the problem of counterfeit people. The large language models, the chat GPTs and their kin, are extremely valuable and fascinating. In fact, their fascination is part of the problem. They are poised to manipulate us into reproducing them in large numbers. species of parasitical informational objects that can, one, destroy trust, and thereby destroy civilization.

We depend on being able to trust each other and we depend, democracy depends on truth. Truth is under great pressure these days from many quarters, left and right. And the, Microsoft's top scientists spoke in a talk of the post-epistemic world, the world after knowledge. That is that is a scenario of great disaster. And it's going to take fast and intelligent action to forestall that.

When you say counterfeit people, I talk a little bit about exactly what you mean. I think many of us saw, for example, the robocall that went out in New Hampshire last month. It sounded like Joe Biden. It turned out it was an AI generated clone of Joe Biden. Is that the sort of thing you're talking about? Speaker 5 That's the sort of thing. But it's going to come in many flavors. First of all. That example nicely shows that it doesn't have to be written, it can be spoken. We've got voice technology now that can mimic a voice. We're sort of leaving the age of photographic evidence and video evidence because all of these things can be

now reproduced by AI. And it means that we've lost one of our main tools and checkpoints for establishing truth with evidence. That's extremely worrying. Speaker 1 As someone who has read so much of your work over the decades, I'm curious how A.I. and technology and sort of the state of affairs in 2024 is or isn't making you maybe rethink or add to some of your other areas that you've written about. I'll give you an example. When you publish breaking the spell almost 20 years ago, 95 percent of Americans said they believed in God, according to Pew. That's down dramatically

to 81 percent today. The number of people who are part of what we might call organized religion or regularly attend places of worship, it's down. The U.S. is becoming a far less religious society, for sure. How do you think of over the last 20 years the evolution of what was called the new atheist movement, you, Hitchens, Dawkins and Harris, how do you think A.I. and similar technology may modulate or influence that? Oh, that's a good question. First of all, I think the new atheists do get some credit for getting people who are atheists to come out of the closet. And people now realize there are many more of us than they thought, and we vote.

And that's a good thing. So in general, I am pleased to see that just what I said would happen is happening. And if you look at the last chapter or so of Breaking the Spell, you'll see that my recommendation is to go slow, to go careful, to recognize that this is going to be heart-wrenching for a lot of people as they see their traditions ebb and erode in front of their eyes and see the great change happening, a lot of people are going to be very hurt and some of them are going to be very angry.

And that's what we're now seeing. We're seeing people who are quite desperate to retain their traditional ways, and they're not winning, they're losing, and they're beginning to grasp at straws. Their children, it takes 20 years to raise a Baptist and 20 minutes to lose one. The Baptister, Southern Baptists, very worried that the children of their members are not becoming Bible-believing Baptists. So the secularization of America, long overdue, is happening apace now, but it's not a process without significant pain

and anguish and danger. And we're facing that danger right now in a big way. Did AI have anything to do with it? Yes, in fact, it did. Deb Roy and I published a piece in the Scientific American some years ago called Our Transparent Future, about how technology was changing the very nature of our epistemic environment. It was on the one hand giving us much more access to internal state secrets, as it were, and corporate secrets. It's much harder to keep a secret now than it used to be. And this is a fundamental change in the epistemic landscape. And we warned in that piece

that institutions that don't evolve quickly to deal with this new transparency are doomed. And we see this happening on many fronts. We see the erosion of trust in news. We see many lawsuits having to do with who's lying to whom about what. We're undergoing a revolution in who knows what. Now, a lot of this is good.

The cell phones that can record the atrocities of police attacking protesters and get those online immediately, that's power to the people. But the state has power too, and evil actors and corporations where we're entering a Wild West period where there's an awful lot of informational weaponry out there and people are learning to use it. There was a point in your career where you were criticized more regularly for being, and I quote, too hostile towards religion and that even among those who agree with your perspective, that it may be more effective to be less hostile, whatever it is that that people mean. I'm curious now looking back at the area, the phase during which that was a criticism you received. What do you think about the attitude and approach that you took?

Was it effective? I think it was. I. I cherish the emails and letters that I got from people who read Breaking the Spell just to know the enemy. They were convinced. that breaking the spell just to know the enemy and we're convinced uh and you know switch sides and and glorify in the fact that i set them free so i got some of that mail and and uh so did the other uh so-called four horsemen of the new atheism. We did clear the air for a lot of people who needed to know that there were others who were willing to talk out on these matters.

I'm often quoted as saying there's no polite way of telling somebody they've wasted their life on an illusion. Right. What I wrote was there's no polite way of asking someone to consider whether they've wasted their life on an illusion, which is what I did. What do you. Oh, sorry. Go ahead. Yeah. And. A lot of people said, yes, you're right. What do you say? Let's see how I can frame this most appropriately. Sometimes there are individuals, the podcast host Joe Rogan, for example, and we talk about that on today's show, who say, you know, whether or not you believe in the specifics of what the Bible teaches or

the story about Jesus or Muhammad or whatever, going back a layer from that, humans have a need for something like a sacred religious type belief. And there's no good substitute for it. Now, I happen to believe at a personal level that understanding the vastness and and duration of the universe and the unlikely odds that I would end up being who I am and doing what I do, that in itself, to me, serves as a pretty inspirational and motivating framework. That's a perfectly good substitute for organized religion. But I'm curious, itself, to me, serves as a pretty inspirational and motivating framework. That's a perfectly good substitute for organized religion. But I'm curious your perspective now on that argument that religion provides something

uniquely useful that nothing else can provide. Well. I agree with you 100 percent that we can follow Spinoza and just say God or nature. Nature is flipping wonderful. It's breathtaking. The more we learn about it, the more wonderful it appears. Much more dazzling, much more worthy of respect and just gobsmacking wonder than, you know,

gods riding fiery chariots or sitting in a celestial throne. I think, but a lot of people want something simpler. And I think that's too bad. I think we can bide our time. I like to point out that my grandchildren, grade schoolers, they understand things easily that the geniuses of in the mind-boggling scientific advances of this era, don't suppose that that's out of reach of everyday people who are not themselves scientists. It is if we do the job right. Now, but what some, there is one thing that religion provides, which the state doesn't provide and I think shouldn't provide. And that is,

well, my way of getting at it is to quote a line from a poem by Robert Frost. And the line is, home is where, when you have to go there, they have to take you in and i think this openness of church communities to take in the people who otherwise don't have a home i mean there's a lot of people that are homeless in this sense in frost sense they sense, nobody loves them. Nobody loves them. And

that's a terrible state to be in. And only non-governmental institutions, communities, organizations can provide that uplift, that cocooning, that gentle welcoming, open and affirming, as some Protestant churches say. Come, join. We don't care what you believe. You can just be a part of our community. I think that's wonderful. And I think if we lose that, we leave an awful lot of people with a lot of anguish and a lot of loneliness. And it's a tightrope act because that attitude excuses failure. It doesn't require you to be really incompetent, but still be supported and loved by your neighbors in such a group. But there have to be people in the organization that know enough to keep it from going off the rails. And I'm not sure that these groups can hold the allegiance of the people they need to hold the allegiance of to be maintained as a as a. Normal part of everyday towns and cities and rural areas, that's a that's a

tough one. Very, very well said. We've been speaking with Daniel Dennett. His latest book is I've Been Thinking. It's a memoir reflecting on his career and ideas. I really appreciate your time today and so great to speak with you. Well, thank you very much. I've enjoyed the questions, as you can see. And I'm I'm happy you asked them and I'm happy that I was able to answer them. THC, a THC Delta eight and nine. They have edibles. And now you can check out the brand new drink from Ounce of Hope for twenty twenty four. The very high five milligram THC seltzer. It's the only 16 ounce THC seltzer on the market. It's only five bucks, a price no one can beat at their cannabis farm in Memphis.

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you'll get 20 percent off everything else when you use the code Pacman. That's ounce of hope dot com. Pick up one of their THC seltzers for just five bucks. Use the code Pacman to get 20 percent off everything else. The info is in the podcast notes. Think of your most personal emails. If you're using a free email provider, you should know that they're scanning every email you send and receive even after you delete it. They're usually using the data to build a picture of your life, to show you ads, which many find creepy. Our sponsors start mail never scans or tracks your emails. Privacy is what

comes first. And unlike other email services, when you delete an email and start mail, it is gone forever. It also protects your data by blocking tracking pixels in emails, which companies and hackers can use to track you. You can create unlimited email aliases to protect the David Pakman Show David Pakman dot com. All right. Let's look at a recent Joe Rogan clip. It's been a while since we looked at any clips from Joe Rogan's podcast. Here's a really interesting one that sort of surprised me a little bit. Here is Rogan saying that eventually people are going to realize we need religion. We need the divine structure that religion provides. We need Jesus. I honestly am very shocked to hear this from Rogan. I don't even I just didn't think this was something he believed.

I don't know if being in Texas around the people he's around lately has given him this idea. Let's listen to what he says. And there is a lot here to discuss. But I think as time rolls on, people are going to understand the need to have some sort of divine structure to things, some sort of belief in the sanctity of love and of truth. And a lot of that comes from religion. A lot of people's moral compass and the guidelines that they've used to follow to live a just and righteous life has come from religion.

And unfortunately, a lot of very intelligent people, they dismiss all the positive aspects of religion because they think that the stories are mere superstitious fairy tales that they have no place in this modern world and we're inherently good and your ethics are based on your own moral compass and we all have one and that's not necessarily true. We need to do that. We need Jesus. I think for real, like if he came back now, it'd be great. Like Jesus, if you're thinking about coming back right now, now's a good time.

Pretty soon. Yeah. So there's a couple of different things here. You know, this plays very well right after our interview with Daniel Dennett, where he where he addresses this. There's a couple of different things here that You know, this plays very well right after our interview with Daniel Dennett, where he where he addresses this. There's a couple of different things here that I think are important. First and foremost, when it comes to organizing our society and our government, religion should play no role in that. So I want to put that up front because this entire conversation should really just be about community morality, personal ethics,

etc. When it comes to government, it's part of the Constitution that religion, morality, personal ethics, et cetera. When it comes to government, it's part of the constitution that religion, Jesus, all of it, it should play no role in civil government. That's what we mean by separation of church and state. What's surprising about hearing this from Rogan about there's just it's going to be clear over time that we have this need for religion as providing a divine structure. As we've learned more about the natural world over decades, centuries and millennia, religiosity has declined. In fact, much of the impetus for religiosity to begin with was to fill gaps of unanswered questions and gaps in knowledge. And when he talks about the need for a divine structure, you really don't

need a divine or religious basis to generate a structure that helps you understand morality and love and truth and all of it. You you have just as many, if not more secular philosophies and humanistic principles and ethical reasoning that's independent of religious doctrine. You see it around the world when we talk about altruism, community support system, secular ethics, secular legal systems, mutual respect rather than religious imperatives. There's no shortage. So the idea that you can only get that as Rogan says, you can't really get it anywhere else. We know that you can. Now, in terms of this whole thing about the sanctity of love and of truth, it's true. There are lots of religions that promote the sanctity of love and truth. They often mix it in with horrible stuff like

the only valid love is that between a man and a woman, for example. So there's perversions of that as well in religion. But again, ethical values like love and compassion and honesty and integrity, you find them in all cultures. You find them in all belief systems, including those that have no belief in the divine. And a lot of this, you know, they love to say if there's no doctrine of sorts, it's anything goes and it's complete moral relativism. And of course, that's not true, because evolutionarily there are human emotions and values that we can understand through sociology, biology, psychology, moral philosophy. And so you don't need that religious framework in order to achieve that. And religion as a source of those values,

it can be one. But certainly when you look historically, nonreligious individuals, nonreligious societies and cultures have all developed ethical systems and ethical systems that I think Joe Rogan would be absolutely fine with. Now, of course, on we need Jesus. I don't know if he's sort of joke. It seems like maybe that's tongue in cheek. Obviously, we need Jesus is completely Christian centric. And that is not going to resonate with people of other faiths, with people without religious beliefs. And the notion that Jesus's return would be this universally good thing. It's such an absurd fantasy that it almost doesn't even deserve any any addressing. But from a secular perspective, what we might benefit from is saying, hey, we really need

to build a framework of human responsibility. We need to address societal and personal ethical challenges in a way that we're not doing. We can do it through dialog. We can do it through education and action. You don't need Jesus to deal with those things. So it is true that for large periods in human history, including now in many countries, there are very religious countries. Still, the U.S. is still a very religious country overall, although declining. It is true that religion has provided that framework for love and truth and whatever for many people. But we have to acknowledge that that's on the decline.

As we learn more about the natural world, it declines even more quickly. And there is no shortage of secular means through which that can be achieved. And they're not any worse empirically to the degree that I found any data to say it's better to get those values from religion than secular frameworks. I've not seen any evidence of that. So sort of a weird thing to see from Rogan. But I guess is that this is the direction his show is going now. I don't know. Let me know your thoughts. We got a bunch of voicemails from people saying, hey, David, what happened to those sources?

Dr. Phil was going to send you. Here's a voicemail about that. Then I'll explain more. David Gregg from Little Rock here. The team here watched the Friday show. No list from Mr. Phil. I just assumed he'd have it to you by now. I mean, I feel like it's been long enough now.

I mean, maybe they need the weekend to send it. So here's the deal. What the caller is referring to is that during our interview with my interview with Dr. Phil, I said, hey, where do you have a list of people, professors who were stripped of tenure because they said the wrong thing? And he said, we're going to get you a list. And we said, OK, we'll post it in the description to that YouTube video. We did.

The list he sent was of three people. OK, the first person was an untenured adjunct professor. So by definition, if you say people are being stripped of tenure and you give me an example of a professor who's not tenured, that one doesn't count. The second one that Dr. Phil sent was a contract not getting renewed. It wasn't a termination. So it's also not an example of that. And the third example was a contract not getting renewed. It wasn't a termination. So it's also not an example of that. And the third example was a professor being removed from teaching certain classes. The professor wasn't even fired or stripped of tenure. They were just taken off of teaching certain classes, I believe, because of low student feedback. So unfortunate. So Dr. Phil's people sent the list. The list contained

three examples of something they said was an epidemic, and none of the examples met the standard that Dr. Phil asserted. So that's what it is. Take it for what you will. We've got a great bonus show for you today. I will tell you about the man who got more than 200 covid shots. Why and what happened? We will discuss. Bitcoin is back and at a record high. But why and what's going to happen now and what is it being used for? What is driving this price peak?

We will discuss it. And thirdly, AOC confronted by protesters demanding she call Gaza a genocide and she snaps at them and says, you're not helping the people, the Palestinian people. This happened at a movie theater in New York City. We will discuss all of these stories and more on today's bonus show. Don't miss it. Sign up at join Pacman dot com. Use the coupon code.

Save democracy 24 to get a discount. I'll see you on the bonus show. Brittany Page in for me tomorrow and I'll be back on Friday.