The David Pakman Show - 6/13/23: Trump arrest TODAY, inflation hits 2 year low

Episode Date: June 13, 2023

-- On the Show: -- Reece Peck, Associate Professor at the City University of New York and author of the book "Fox Populism: Branding Conservatism as Working Class," joins David to discuss the right wing's dominance of messaging, media, rhetoric, and more. Get the book: https://amzn.to/43T7ysL -- Inflation drops to its lowest level in two years, bottoming out at 4% over the last 12 months, but Republicans are still complaining -- Democratic California Governor Gavin Newsom appears on Fox News' Hannity program and absolutely destroys Hannity's flaccid right wing talking points -- 2024 Republican candidate and former Governor Chris Christie brutally crushes Trump and MAGA in a CNN town hall hosted by Anderson Cooper -- Failed former President Donald Trump is struggling to find lawyers just hours before his arrest today in Miami, Florida -- Republican Kevin McCarthy defends Donald Trump's storage of classified documents in his bathroom -- MAGA-world melts down over Donald Trump's arrest in Miami, Florida today, even going as far as to threaten violence -- Donald Trump's own former Chief-of-Staff Mick Mulvaney predicts prison time for Trump -- Voicemail caller asks about raising children bilingual, and David explains his approach as a father -- On the Bonus Show: Student loan payments will be due starting in October, Illinois law bans the banning of books, "dead' woman found breathing at own funeral, much more... 🦛 Happy Hippo: Use code PAKMAN for 20% off at https://happyhippo.com/pakman 🏠 Watch David’s “Replace Your Mortgage” interview at https://replaceyouruniversity.com/pakman 💻 Get Private Internet Access for 83% OFF + 4 months free at https://www.piavpn.com/David 🌳 Use code PAKMAN for 20% off HoldOn plant-based bags at https://holdonbags.com/pakman 🖼️ Aura Frames: Code PAKMAN for $30 off + free shipping at https://auraframes.com/pakman 🛌 Helix Sleep: Get 20% OFF a mattress + 2 free pillows. Go to https://helixsleep.com/pakman -- Become a Supporter: http://www.davidpakman.com/membership -- Subscribe on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/thedavidpakmanshow -- Subscribe to Pakman Live: https://www.youtube.com/pakmanlive -- Follow us on Twitter: http://twitter.com/davidpakmanshow -- Like us on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/davidpakmanshow -- Leave us a message at The David Pakman Show Voicemail Line (219)-2DAVIDP

Yes, Donald Trump is getting arrested later, but we start today with economic news. We'll get to this. The Trump stuff. We'll have time to discuss it tomorrow. Let's start with economic news. We'll get to this. The Trump stuff. We'll have time to discuss it tomorrow. Let's start with economic news. Inflation has now dropped to its lowest point in two years. And as you all know, I don't like to play politics with these economic indicators. I don't play politics with debt and deficit. We have to look at it for what it is. And if you do that, you will then have no choice but to laugh at the way that Fox News covered this. Yahoo Finance reports inflation consumer

prices in May rose at slowest annual rate since April of twenty twenty one. That's in fact more than two years. It's 25, almost 26 months. The Consumer Price Index revealed headline inflation rose 0.1 percent over the last month and 4 percent over the prior year in May. A slowdown from April's 0.4 percent month over month increase and 4. nine percent annual gain. Both measures roughly in line with economists forecast. So we have a chart that you can see. And of course, you see this massive inflation spike that started right when COVID started. Essentially, it has now come down to levels that are still higher than what the U.S. has seen, but are equivalent to what we saw in 2011, lower than

what we saw during the recession in 2008, similar to numbers we had in 2006, similar to numbers in 2001, lower than numbers in 91. So you start to see that we are now in an inflation range that is a little bit higher than what we have historically said is the target, but are very reasonable inflation numbers. Is this a surprise? It is not. I don't have any special predictive ability, but anybody paying attention to the trends, we saw an increase in the rate of inflation.

We saw a decrease in the increase of that rate. And then the next thing you would expect is an actual decrease. My thought was that by the end of this summer, we would be somewhere in the four to five range. We may even once we get June's numbers in July or July's numbers in August, we may actually see inflation down into the high threes, which is even lower than I thought it might be, or it might stay level right around this 4%. Important to understand a couple of different things. And I always explain these things. Number one, when people see the number 4%, very often they think prices went up 4% in May. They

did not. 4% is the inflation over the last 12 months. And what happens when you get a new month's worth of data is that in that year indicator, you drop that 13 month ago number and you add the latest one. So let me give you an example. The number we got last month in May told us what was inflation from April 22 to April 23. Now that we have the main numbers, we update the 12 month indicator and we now know what was inflation from May 22 to May 23. It's a trailing 12 month indicator. Number two, many people aren't aware that based on the standards that we have for our economies and how we think about the economy, the goal is roughly two to three percent inflation. Now, you might say, David, why? Why would we want inflation? And it's important to understand this. You can critique it by saying

this is not sustainable long term as an economy because we can't have indefinite growth, which I would engage with you on. But the reason that a little bit of inflation is considered good is if you have too much inflation, as we understand, life becomes unaffordable for people. It can cause spending to stop because people can't afford things and it can cause a recession. That's if we have too much inflation. You might say, well, but wouldn't deflation be good then? Prices going down sounds good. People can afford things. If you start seeing deflation where things get cheaper, it also causes people

not to spend in businesses, not to invest. Why would that be? If you expect that things will be cheaper in the future, either as an individual consumer thinking about buying a car or as a business thinking about doing an car or as a business thinking about doing an expansion, building a new warehouse or whatever the case may be. If you think it will be cheaper in the future, you would wait. That waiting is a decline in economic activity, which then trickles down and can lead to layoffs. And OK, so that's what we call a deflationary spiral. That's why a little bit of inflation is considered good. That little bit of inflation is what encourages people to buy now

rather than later. But they can still afford right now. And often a little bit of inflation is in parallel with wage growth. So that's like the general economic view. Now, how did Fox News react to this news? Well, they think there may be too many jobs. They are pulling the labor shortage line. This is Maria Bartiromo and Republican Congressman Buddy Carter just this morning. Well, we will also hear from Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen today. Representative Earl Buddy Carter, talk to us about what you're expecting there, because the Treasury secretary, when we first started seeing this spike in inflation, says it was transitory.

What are your thoughts on how she'll explain where we're going from here? Well, I'm sure she'll make it out to be as good as she can. But at the same time, we are far from out of trouble here. Yes, I agree. The Fed may pause next this month and may not raise interest rates, but that doesn't mean they're not going to raise them back in July. We've still got some serious problems in our economy. The labor shortage. Last night I had dinner with a group of engineers and they were telling me, we need help. We need engineers. One company said they

had 1,700 employees. They'd hire 200 today if they could find them. We still got high interest rates in the lobby this morning. I was talking to a young lady who said, you know, I wanted to buy a new car, but I just can't afford it right now. It's so high inflation interest rates. Those are the type of things that we've still got to work on in this economy. And, you know, Janet Yellen will paint a pretty picture. Yeah. All right. These people really are pathetic. The argument he's making is there are so many businesses desperate to hire people that it is a terrible economy. The economy must be doing terribly because so many businesses are saying, hey, let's hire because we have demand for our products and services.

Now, I'll be very clear with you. Let's talk about labor shortage. A labor shortage happens when demand for workers in a particular industry, for example, exceeds the supply of workers available with the skills required, willing to work at the wage rate that is being offered. Labor shortages can be a sign of a good economy or they can be troubling. Labor shortages can have positive or negative effects on an economy depending on the type of labor shortage, the duration, the severity. And so a labor shortage, even if that's what they are calling it, is not necessarily a

bad thing for the economy. It might just signal really strong demand for goods and services. It might create incentives to innovate and to increase efficiency. And it might mean that employers need to offer higher wages. They love talking about the market and supply of demand, supply and demand. And what a labor shortage may signal, particularly when you're at full employment, essentially, is that businesses might need to pay a little bit more. So just saying labor shortage isn't an argument. And it is certainly not an argument when people like Maria Bartiromo and what was this guy's name? Buddy Carter are

the ones making that argument. Understand that there is no economic indicator right now that signals a weak economy. There is just none. And we're going to continue covering that. Fox News is Sean Hannity thought that he would bring on Democratic California Governor Gavin Newsom and make him look dumb by getting him to talk about Biden and getting him to talk about California. And Gavin Newsom proved everything I have been saying about him for the last several months. You know, Gavin Newsom is not the most progressive, but Gavin Newsom strikes exactly the right tone, demeanor and temperament that the Democratic Party could use more of. This is a guy who every time I see him interviewed proves that he is a serious potential future contender for the Democratic presidential nomination.

Now would he be attacked for being the liberal California woke up? Yeah, he would. Would he have answers to those claims? He would look at this interview and look at how Newsom crushes Sean Hannity on his own show, starting here with economic issues. This is a clinic. This is when you have trainings done of Democratic candidates. This is what you need to be showing our president. I have great confidence in his. I don't want to. I don't want to accomplish. I think his policies are failing. Chipsack Science Act, you oppose that? I will tell you on every measure from the economy,

inflation, borders, energy, national security, he's missing in action. Let's talk about them in order. Let's hang on. Wait, but I wanna challenge the premise. Hannity wants to list them, but he doesn't wanna go through one by one, typical. The economy, 13.1 million jobs he's created. More, these are post-COVID jobs. You know that. Well, I mean, that's an artificial number. No, these are post-COVID jobs. You know that. I mean, that's an artificial number. No, no, no. Then let me just, let me stipulate this as an opportunity to engage civilly on this.

Okay. Fair point. Your president, Donald Trump, lost 2.6 million jobs during his four years. We've created 13.1 million. Fine, you can maintain a COVID frame. How about the fact that Joe Biden's created more jobs, six times more jobs than the

previous three Republican presidents? You're right. Are you going to tell me that the average family where we have two thirds of Americans now living paycheck to paycheck? It was 70 percent. That's just frickin brilliant, guys. Guys, that this is exact. They love to cite these numbers. Two thirds of families are now paycheck to paycheck. Of course, it's not actually two thirds. Two thirds would be sixty six point six percent. The number is actually in the low sixties. So Hannity rounds up and Newsom points out that number is down like seven points from when Trump was president. This is exactly how you have to fight these guys. It was seven percent. It was 70 percent under Donald Trump. We had the lowest unemployment

rate for every demographic. And they are even lower now. Now we have the lowest unemployment rate in history. And you and I are living with the lowest unemployment we had in our lifetime. You had every demographic and the economy was unemployment record low under Joe Biden. OK, we had historic low after historic low under Donald Trump. And it is even better now. This is how you don't back down from these bullies. Two of the best messaging folks.

I'm talking from a communication standpoint right now. OK, we're not doing a policy analysis are on the left are Gavin Newsom and Pete Buttigieg. OK, this is how you have to fight these people. Now, obviously, this alone won't win you elections. I'm not delusional, but this is how you do it. Here is the topic of inflation. And Newsom is just barreling through Hannity. I'm answering the ones in order. What is the economy

on the economy? Let's talk about the economy. Give me an A inflation stubborn around the globe. Let's let's let's talk about inflation is down 40 percent since last summer, 10 months in a row, four point nine percent. He was just and by the way, now down to four percent. This interview was from last night, so that's why they don't have that data yet. UK prime minister at six point nine percent. Is that because of Biden's? I think Biden's economic and energy policies directly impacted the UK's inflation. No, I am. The fact that France is five point five percent of Germany's at six. You're not inflation. We're moving in the right direction.

Folks, he's steamrolling him. This it's stunning. Hannity is Hannity has lost control and he doesn't have the facts on his hand. On the issue of the border security, I heard it's one point four percent inflation. It went up to 40 year high, 40 year high, globally, globally, because you just brought us. So we're making an excuse for Trump's dismal jobs record related to COVID. It wasn't a job. It's COVID's relationship to jobs record related to COVID. It wasn't a dismal jobs record. It wasn't a dismal jobs record. COVID's relationship to inflation.

This is folks. This is this is textbook. Hannity wants to have it both ways. Yes, Trump lost two point six million jobs, but that was because of COVID. But what about high inflation under Biden? Well, hold on. That's globally because of COVID. Oh, no.

Then it's not. Then COVID isn't the explanation. Newsom is almost perfect on this. Kennedy pulls the Biden's weak thing. Here is Newsom. I think he's a man of decency and character. I'm really proud of the president. Proud of what he's accomplished.

He's strong enough to be president. That's what I'm talking about. He just did to McCarthy. He ran in circles. Look at the vote card. I didn't just go. I want to vote for it. Exactly circles. Look at the vote card. I didn't just I want to vote for it. Exactly. Kevin got played by the president states. I'm for results. Did you did you see

what just happened? Did you see that? Hannity is agreeing with Newsom. Newsom is making the argument. If Biden is so weak, how did he have McCarthy wrapped around his finger and got McCarthy to do exactly what he wanted? And Hannity goes, I wouldn't have voted for that bill that McCarthy voted for. That's the point. If Biden is so weak, how did he perfectly engineer McCarthy into doing what he wanted him to do here? Just a couple more of these. And this is what we could do this all day. Here's Newsome explaining, hey, you know, California actually works pretty well. Yeah, things are expensive because people want to go there.

It's called supply and demand. But California is working pretty damn well. In twenty twenty one, California, seven point eight percent of GDP GDP growth in this country, one of the fastest growing economies anywhere on planet Earth. The state continues to be the tentpole of the American economy. Twenty five point six% of all American jobs came from this state in April. In the last two fiscal years, we enjoyed $177.7 billion in operating surpluses. We're on our way to be the fourth largest economy, eat your heart out,

Germany, in the world. Number one in R&D, venture capital, more scientists, researchers, more Nobel laureates, more patents emanating out of this state than any other state in America. With all due respect, Florida doesn't even come close. Eat your heart out of Texas. California continues to be the dominant economic engine for them. I promised you before this interview, I would let you give full answers. That's a full answer.

Thank you. It is. And I mean, when you can't when you can't argue the facts, Hannity has no choice but to say thank you for at least answering the questions. And here lastly is Newsom just humiliating Ron DeSantis. They were told they had jobs. They told they were going to get certain court dates changed. They were dropped off.

They knocked on the door and they left left, and it was not coordinated. I mean, what kind of faith tradition allows for this dehumanization? There is a videotape of the people getting on the plane. Because they were all lied to and told, you're being taken care of, everything's going to be great. I would be proud and happy. Then because they landed in your sanctuary state, you're going to take care of them. They should be happy. Look, we'll deal with the car.

Come on. This is California. I know it's California. I'm aware of where I am. On this way, the fourth largest economy in the world. We can handle all of this. I'm a border state. Ron DeSantis is not.

I know he's desperate to get in on the action. No, because a lot of people. He's belly flopped. Donald Trump is going to clean his clock. Is it fair that Joe Biden will say? DeSantis has belly flopped. He will clean to clean. Is it fair that Joe Biden DeSantis has a belly flop? Do you? He will clean his clock. He needs attention. And he set this up months ago by doing an RFP. I have the contractors. OK, my question is higher saying he was going to send

people to California. This is a stunt. It's embarrassing. It's pathetic. I disagree. I think he did the right thing. His state's not a sanctuary. He did the right thing by by flying migrants around, even though I can't explain why, folks, this is a formidable political force. And this is not about cheerleading Newsome as the epitome of the progressive candidate. This is about a model for the next generation democratic movement that better knows how to deal with these would be bullies. If you didn't know any better, you'd think that was Gavin Newsom's show and that he was allowing Hannity to say a few things, things which, by the way, didn't make a lot of sense. job by Gavin Newsom. One of our sponsors today is Happy Hippo offering super quality lab tested Kratom, letting you

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After that, use the code Pacman for 20 percent off. The info is in the podcast notes. One of our sponsors today is replace your mortgage. Mortgages are a really interesting thing in the United States. The poor often can't afford them and the rich often don't use them. Instead, the wealthy use special financial tools to pay off their debts, often in a fraction of the time that it takes for a middle class American to realize that same payoff. Replace your mortgage teaches you how you can pay off your home in five to seven years without needing to make more money than you're currently making right now. And in addition, they can teach you how to better utilize your existing assets and equity to begin or continue growing wealth and passive income

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Christie did a CNN town hall last night, and he again proved he is really the only serious Republican presidential candidate. I tell you this with no fear or hesitation because it appears as though Chris Christie has absolutely no chance of winning that nomination. He's making too much sense. He's willing to criticize Donald Trump. He answers questions when they are asked of him. I will be the first to say Chris Christie from 2016 to 2020 seemed to support most of what Trump did. And for that, I think he is horrible. But if you compare him and contrast him with the other presidential candidates, including Donald Trump and Ron DeSantis and others. DeSantis, DeSantis. And now I'm doing it. A running for the 2024 Republican nomination. This is the only serious person. And he actually could do a good job in debating Joe Biden because he is intelligent.

He's willing to answer questions. He's direct. Check out this clip from last night's town hall. Chris Christie saying they're blaming everybody but Trump for this indictment. What about blaming Trump for the things he did? And we're in a situation where there are people in my own party who are blaming DOJ. How about blame him? Right. He did it. He kept he took documents he wasn't supposed to take. He kept it when they asked him back for them. They got a grand jury subpoena. He refused to comply. They raided his home finally because he refused to comply that all of those things were brought on himself, as was this indictment. This is accurate. What about blaming the person who did the thing? And if you look in the comments to these clips, you see all these MAGA people saying Chris Christie is a rhino.

He's not serious. No one's taking him seriously. It is true that because MAGA has taken over the Republican Party, the one guy who actually makes some sense and is more in line with the Mitt Romney, John McCain type Republicans seems to have no shot. Now, Steve Schmidt said last week in our interview that he actually thinks Chris Christie does have a shot. We will see. Here is week in our interview that he actually thinks Chris Christie does have a shot. We will see.

Here is Chris Christie weighing in on the indictment itself. I want to ask you about the indictments that we've seen yesterday. Former Attorney General Bill Barr called the indictment, quote, very damning. And he said, if even half of it is true, then he's toast. Your former U.S. attorney, is he right? It is a very tight, very detailed, evidence-laden indictment. And the conduct in there is awful. I mean, put aside taking the documents in the first place.

But then when you start getting asked, Anderson, in May of 21, nicely, with a letter from the archivist saying, could you please give it back? And you ignore it, ignore it, ignore it. Then they come with a grand jury subpoena. And then according to the indictment, you tell your lawyers, tell them we don't have anything, even though you have dozens and dozens of boxes of material. That's obstruction of justice if it's true. And so I think the former attorney general is absolutely right. This is an actual proper legal analysis from a prosecutor who is not so blinded by partisanship.

And he also has an incentive to criticize Trump. Obviously, Chris Christie, again, making the point at another moment, we blame everybody but ourselves for our losses. We should blame the fact that Trump is a loser and he lost everything for us. An argument I've been making for a while now makes me feel even more important. I'm just telling you. I've known him for 22 years. The only thing he understands is force. The only thing he understands is coming right at him and making your case. And if these other candidates don't want to do it, the American people and

Republican primary voters have to start to understand this. When did it when did we get your case. And if these other candidates don't want to do it, the American people and Republican primary voters have to start to understand this. When did we get to the point where we're always blaming our adversaries for the weakness of our candidates? Oh, it's the Democrats' fault. It's DOJ's fault. It's this person's fault. It's the media's fault. How about it's his? He hasn't won a damn thing since 2016. Three-time loser. 2018, we lost the House. 2020, we lost the White House. We lost the United States Senate

a couple of weeks later in 2021. And in 2022, we lost two more governorships, another Senate seat, and barely took the House of Representatives when Joe Biden had the most incompetent first two years I've ever seen in my life. That I disagree with, but it's obviously what he has to say.

Speaker 2 Loser, loser, loser. Now we're getting going. It'll be different this time. Why? Why will it be different this time? Those arguments need to be made, and I'm not afraid to make them. Speaker 1 This is the only guy who's actually saying this stuff. Why won't Tim Scott do this? Why won't DeSantis do this? They are all weak other than Chris Christie. He's polling one point three percent.

We'll see where it goes. Donald Trump has been looking for a new defense lawyer even as late as this morning, just hours before today's arrest, booking and arraignment. This is unbelievable stuff. Report from The Washington Post. Trump scrambles to find lawyer before first federal court appearance. What is happening?

Donald Trump spent the day before his historic appearance in federal court scrambling to find a qualified Florida lawyer willing to join his defense team as he faces the Justice Department's first prosecution of a former president. This is yesterday after touching down in Miami Monday. Trump spent the afternoon interviewing prospective lawyers and meeting with his legal team, along with other top advisers to discuss the case in which, as you know, he's accused of mishandling classified documents, obstruction, etc. Several prominent Florida attorneys declined to take Trump on as a client after two of the key lawyers handling the document matter, Jim Trustee and John Rowley, resigned last week.

A Trump adviser said late Monday Trump would be joined in court by Todd Blanche, an attorney handling his case in New York, as well as veteran Florida litigator Christopher Kais on the truth central platform. Trump said last week Blanch would lead his defense team, along with a firm to be named later. This is not good. This is very much not good for Trump. The article goes on to say trustee and Rowley's departure was sudden and unexpected, leaving

Trump jockeying to identify a lawyer ahead of today's appearance in federal court, where rules require practicing attorneys to be members in good standing of the Florida bar or be sponsored by one before appearing. Kais led the search for a lawyer and cast a seemingly wide net. He declined to comment. The 11th hour flurry to hire a seasoned trial attorney was a familiar dance for Trump, who has had difficulty hiring and keeping lawyers over the course of federal and state investigations.

Disagreements over legal strategy hindered the search for new defense attorneys. This is wild, wild stuff that this is unbelievable. In a normal world, attorneys would be qualified. Attorneys would be falling all over themselves to defend a former president in an unprecedented situation. But they are probably becoming aware that when you tell Trump uncomfortable truths like the indictment is strong or mistakes have been made up until now and we are now digging out or you might have to plea in some way, Trump probably loses his mind. It's unclear whether these lawyers would even be able to get paid. So in a sense, in a situation where lawyers should be desperate to work with Trump, it's fascinating that there are even lawyers still willing to

represent Trump. And it's probably a small subset of people who are like smart enough to pass the bar, but not clever enough to realize that working with Trump in this capacity is an impossibility because of the difficulties in both collecting payment and getting Trump to actually do what you suggest that he does. And we've talked before about MAGA really means making attorneys get attorneys. That's been a theme as well. The smartest possible interpretation of this entire lawyer thing would be Trump is staging a difficulty in finding lawyers as a delay tactic to continually be able to have lawyers say to a court, hey, I was just brought on. I need a delay in order to familiarize myself with the facts of the case. And then you switch

again and again and again. There is that's the that's the most generous interpretation. There is absolutely no evidence that that's actually what's going on. This is a wild situation where Trump is struggling to find lawyers even hours before today's court appearance will be live for the arraignment and the arrest and the entire thing on YouTube, Twitch and Facebook. And I hope you'll join me. One more note about the classified document bathroom dump that took place at Mar-a-Lago. A speaker of the House, Kevin McCarthy, a Republican, was asked, it really doesn't look good, right, for Trump to have classified documents in his bathroom.

And McCarthy actually said bathrooms have lockable doors and actually brought up Joe Biden. This is you would think this were a joke. They're not really going to do this, are they? Here is Kevin McCarthy defending documents in the bathroom. Was that a good look for the former president to have boxes in a bathroom? I don't know. Is it a good picture to have boxes in a garage that opens up all the time? A bathroom door locks. So what is he referring to? This is the story of how Joe Biden had documents in his garage next to his Corvette. The stupidity of this is you can't just lift a garage door from the outside like that's not how garage doors work. But the argument that Kevin McCarthy is making is

bathrooms have lockable doors, but garages don't. Now, it's, of course, untrue. It's also kind of silly because bathrooms have lockable doors from the inside. I don't I mean, listen, we're getting really into the weeds here. But usually if you lock the bathroom door from the outside, you're what we would call locked out. Many of the doors with a little pin, you can unlock it from the outside. So is that even really secure? But we are at the level. The point here is the following. It's not about locksmith theory. It's about Kevin McCarthy is trying to defend the indefensible in the same way that these Republicans have been doing it now for a while, which is to either talk about Hillary Clinton or in this particular case to talk about Joe Biden. It is laughable, but it is not

unexpected. We have a cult. That is what this is. And Kevin McCarthy defending the bathroom dump. You got to see it to believe it. When you're using websites and apps, your device sends out data about you into the open, who you are, where you go, things you like that data then gets sold around for advertising purposes, which is why every time I connect to the Internet, I use a VPN to hide my IP address. And our sponsor, Private Internet Access, is the most trustworthy VPN on the market. It's the only VPN that has proven multiple times in court. They don't log your activity. Private Internet access protects you from the prying eyes of hackers,

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Today we're going to be speaking with Reese Peck, who's an associate professor at the City University of New York and also author of the book Fox Populism Branding Conservatism as Working Class. Really appreciate your time and for being here today. Yeah, my pleasure. So to start with, you know, my my understanding of the history of political media, including sort of as described by the book Waves of Rancor, which starts with the use of low power FM and talk radio and sort of all the way through where we are now, is that the political right and the political left have used media differently. Part of that has to do with ownership structure and issues

related to money and financing. But part of it also has to do with the right, quite frankly, having better, I would argue, more effective sort of bumper sticker phrases that better lend themselves to some forms of media. Can you talk a little bit about the current landscape and how you would sort of distinguish the way the political right and left use media? Yeah, well, first off, the right, it's hard to talk about the kind of right versus left media. You really have to think about a kind of liberal corporatist center that dominates the mainstream legacy media and then this massive right wing sector that's always been there for multiple generations. And then this little sliver of truly leftist media and these alternative spaces. So you kind of have to break it down in a tripartite model.

It's harder to talk about like left media versus liberal centrist media. But the left media, in terms of the history of alternative left media, I mean, today there's a common sense notion that the mainstream media is liberal, has a liberal bias. But if you took the time machine to the 1930s, when they talked about the bias of the press, it was always the capitalist press or the conservative press. And so labor unions and leftists had to create these alternative revenue models, had to kind of fight their way to get on radio. And it's always been this uphill battle. I mean, if you're critical of capitalism and the media system you exist in is commercial in nature, right, it's an uphill battle for funding, for legitimacy. And so that's largely the history

of the left, like the true left kind of alternative media. The conservative media, inversely, I guess you'd say, when you have this pro-business class, free market ideology, the wins at your back, right? You're basically telling media executives and billionaire donors that they're the moral history. I mean, they're the moral heroes. They're the job creators. So they're going to look kindly on you and your content. And so, but I don't think that structural analysis, it can only go so far. And I think leftists throw their hands in the air and they say, well, we don't have the same billionaire backing. We don't have the same funding. And I think you're very right to say

there are things in which left media creators do to tie their own hands, to shoot themselves in the foot in terms of messaging, in terms of style, in terms of narrative that that has really catapulted the right is I completely agree with you. They're kind of more sophisticated in terms of their communication and media strategies. Can you talk a little bit to give some examples of that? And you know, I mean, when I talk to others in the left media space and when I talk about that, just to be really clear, I'm not talking about MSNBC. MSNBC is sort of like a Democratic Party center left positioning, corporate profit motives

that are identical to Fox News, et cetera. Even if some of their policies are different, certainly their editorial perspective is different. But when I talk to other people in like left independent media, there are many who say I would gladly accept the millionaire or even billionaire donors of The Daily Wire if they came to me and said, hey, I want to give you money to do exactly what you're doing. The counterpoint to that is those who say no, no, no, no, no. By the very nature of having those millionaires or billionaires supporting you, you would not be able to do what you're doing. That's the difference between what the left wants

to espouse and what the right wants to espouse. So how much of it is that the messaging of the left is not appealing to those moneyed interests versus something else? Well, I would say that there was no shortage of millionaire, billionaire money for right-wing media in the 1950s and 60s and 70s, but they were not nearly as successful. And so if it was all money and donations, then how come William F. Buckley wasn't a kind of populist tabloid hit? Or how come the first generation of conservatives were so ineffective? Their media before Limbaugh, before Fox News, was largely on the margins. It was a boutique kind of segment of the conservative movement. It was only when you get to Limbaugh where you see this blend of kind of profitability. They're a profitable commercial entertainment product and then conservative ideology. And it's when

the conservatives, really with Murdoch's influence, embraces tabloid style and populist style and integrated insights from tabloid public affairs genres like talk radio or tabloid television, that the right attained this kind of level of cultural dominance and prevalence that it did. And so I think there's lessons to be learned from the left, right? The left has this inflexible commitment to this kind of upper middle class educated, imagined audience in mind when they're designing their style or they're designing their kind of consumer appeals. And they're averse to this tabloid aesthetic. They're averse to kind of populist modes of engagement. And I think that's, you know, the success of the right is largely a

story with them shifting toward a different style that's more conducive to mass taste and kind of working class identity. So going back, like what are the stylistic mistakes that you think the left is making that limit the appeal? Well, I think the left in especially when, you know, there was this coming to Jesus moment when George W. Bush won his second term. And that was when you see this explosion of kind of anti Fox media ventures. We got to do something about Fox. You get, you know, Air America is launched. You know, you get Jon Stewart kind of coming into his own and critiquing, and then you get, you know, Oberman a little later. And so there's this moment where they're like, we need an unapologetic kind of form of progressive media to counter what Fox is doing.

I think my critique there is they went all in on sarcasm and comedy and this kind of ironic style. That was the way they were going to be popularly appealing. And that has its uses. And we all like, to a degree, the satirical style. But I think it's limited when you have other ways you can speak to people with sincerity, with emotional expressiveness, with recruiting certain personalities that don't come from prestige sectors of the journalism field. And that's exactly what Fox did. MSNBC had a slight moment of flirtation with popular-styled hosts, with Cenk Uygur and Dylan Rattigan and Ed Schultz.

And those shows did good. They had pretty good ratings. But I would say it's because of their middle-brow taste culture, that it was off-brand with MSNBC. They were trying to appeal to this educated, affluent demographic, and they didn't want to, you know, alienate them with this popular sensibility. And so I think that that that's the key to me. And every time the left kind of plays with this, they generally abandon those kind of hosts, those kind of styles. George Lakoff has a perspective where media aside, he argues that some of the arguments

of the right are just structurally better suited to commercial media. Like a couple examples would be, hey, abortions, murder. So it should be banned. And on the left, it's like, well, you know, we've got to talk about viability and then you have to understand sort of like the 40 week pregnancy and mammalian gestation. And we have to draw. It's not like a good bumper sticker phrase or, hey, the taxes, it's my money. Let me keep my money. Whereas the left is like, well, yes, once societies get large enough, some roles need to be centralized. And so we have to find the right tact. Right. It's like so he makes a more linguistic that that sort of approach. How how important is that versus like strategic media decisions that are made by left and right?

I think it's critical. You know, I'm not, you know, late cough. The insights of late cough is that the first way we interface with politics is often through these moral registers. It's not through these like nuanced policy discussions or what the facts are. We really start with aesthetics and moral frames and then we move to the policies. It's not that those things don't matter. It's just the way in which people interface and the sequencing that they kind of come to engage in politics through.

And I agree. I mean, there's other civil rights leaders like Reverend Barber. He's excellent. He's been calling for the progressives to develop what he calls a kind of universal moral language. And it doesn't mean when you speak in these moral terms, you have to abandon nuance or complexity. It's just to recognize that that is engaging from the from up front. Right.

That you're really laying out these kind of positions. And the right is really good at recognizing not just speaking in a moralistic way, but recognizing what moral political stories have had resonance over time. They're very good at looking at, like you just mentioned, this idea that I work hard and I deserve the fruits of my labor, right? There's a way you could frame that in a left-wing way. Yeah, the labor movement works hard and they're the ones that create wealth, right? You could use that same moral frame like FDR did, but the right captures it, co-ops, and then turns that into a story about the fruits of labor is really giving these business people and the job creators like all their hard work. And so we need not to tax them because

they're the most productive segments of society. So the right is like very savvy at recognizing which narratives have resonated and been recycled over political history and where the left kind of shuns these things and what the name of intellectual complexity or that it's too hokey or corny. And I just think that, again, that's another way. And yet they're they're shooting themselves in the foot. What do you make strategically about the recent focus from the Republican Party in media on the culture war stuff, anti woke, the trans issues, you know, men in women's sports, as they like to call it, et cetera.

You know, a lot of the rhetoric is the same rhetoric that was assigned to gay men 10 years ago that has just moved on now and taken a little bit of a different tone. But do you think that from a media studies perspective, that it is a logical thing for the right to be doing temporarily or even on the medium term, or is it a mistake strategically? It all depends on if, you know, Murdoch has always been very good at taking something that seems, you know, somewhat petty, like M&Ms being having, you know, you know, androgynous boots on or something like that. And everyone on the left, the left laughs at it,

right? We're like, oh, it's so ridiculous. They care about these little things. But it's the way in which they'll take something that is palpable and mundane and everyday and connect it to the broader world of politics. And that actually makes politics more palpable, gives it texture. And so they're only successful if they just get too in the weeds with CRT and trans issues and don't connect it to these broader narratives about how liberals look down on us and they're part of the educated elite and they're the campus-based crowd and we're the working class crowd. That's when those kind of culture war narratives have to pack their biggest punch. But it's like when I look at DeSantis, for example, he just lacks that ability to take those issues and kind of turn them into broader class narratives about elitism and about

we're on the side of authentic people and normal people. And he's just overly online. And it just seems like it starts to seem like you're actually just, your tactic is too naked. You're just scapegoating. You're creating a scapegoat for the sake of creating a scapegoat. And it doesn't feel like it has this broader populist message where Trump is very good at exploiting those class cultural tensions between the college educated and the non-college educated class. So I think that's where they, they're the best is when they can package it in some sort of larger populist class critique. It's at its worst when it just is nakedly bigoted and nakedly a kind of subculture of the right that they're obsessed with, an extreme kind of religious subculture.

Speaking of like the online media space versus kind of like outside of it, one of the conversations I had with my audience during the 2020 Democratic primary was that spending a lot of time on Twitter and Reddit would likely give you an overemphasized perspective on how popular Bernie Sanders is within the Democratic Party. And I had the belief and I think there was polling to bear it out that people who are just like working in Michigan and then picking up their kids and going home. They're not necessarily on Twitter and Reddit in the same way if they're on it at all. And that Joe Biden's support among the Democratic Party voters is likely much higher than it seems. And this seemed to be the case. Now, yes, to some degree, there was this coordinated. Everybody got out of Joe Biden's way after South

Carolina like that. That's true. But I think the point kind of still remains there. Has this online discourse actually become deceptive in terms of figuring out what quote what people care about? Maybe not only on the left, but also on the right, in the sense that I don't know that that many Republican voters, the sorts of people that kind of want like a Chris Christie or Mitt Romney, are that engaged with like the so-called men and

women's sports thing or the anti woke has online really distorted what people care about. Speaker 5 I mean, I think undeniably, you know, I think that what when you really get to the 2016 election, which is really this important pivotal shift, I think, in our media culture and our politics, where you're no longer seeing Obama dance with Ellen DeGeneres and Hillary Clinton goes on stage with Beyonce. It's like this is that old kind of monoculture model, right, the vestiges of the network era where you could still do that kind of politics. What we see in 2016 is the online fringes start to emerge and have outsized influence, kind of erasing this normy, kind of middle-brow political center, right? And so it creates this deception that they're bigger or they're more representative of both their respective political sides than they actually are. And I think you're right. I kind of was guilty of that, too.

When you consume Bernie kind of aligned media so much, you know, when the 2020 election happened, I realized that there are people that actually have much more cemented pro-Democratic Party, normie loyalties. MSNBC and CNN actually did have some power, regardless of all the calls that they're dying, they're dead, they're irrelevant. You know, I think they show they're still kind of shaping what your average, middle-of-the-road democratic voter thinks. And so I'm with you.

I mean, I think there is an overconfidence sometimes with the kind of alternative political media spheres. But with that said, it is undeniable that people are cord cutting. It's undeniable that cable is in decline and that even the writing's on the wall. Even those organizations have tried to do an over-the-top streaming model, Fox Nation, CNN Plus. They're seeing how the independent alternative sphere is getting larger and larger and larger and wielding more political influence. So I think we're in this moment of transition. Right. So it's hard to prognosticate like what's what or who's listening to who who's who's driving the agenda. It's much more unclear than it was back in 2008 or even at

the beginning of 2016. That's for sure. We've been speaking with associate professor at the City University of New York, Reese Peck, also author of the book Fox Populism Branding Conservatism as Working Class. Reese really appreciate your time and insights today. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Here is the perfect Father's Day gift. Get him a Wi-Fi connected digital picture frame from Aura.

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Helix Sleep dot com slash Pacman. That's H.E.L.I.X. Sleep dot com slash Pacman for 20 percent off and two free pillows. The link is in the podcast notes. MAGA is indeed melting down today, the day of Donald Trump's second arrest and indictment, this one federally in Miami, Florida. By the time you listen to today's show, it may have already happened. And we will, of course, have full live coverage today, as well as of Trump's Bedminster speech at 815 p.m. Eastern tonight. Hope you'll join me for that.

And then we will debrief tomorrow. But let's take a quick tour through Maga land. Here is a former Trump propaganda, Steve Bannon, who recently attacked me and called me brother Dave Pakman. This guy is not my brother. He is now turning on William Barr, William Barr, Trump's former attorney general, of course, saying if half of the indictment is true, Trump is toast. We looked at that clip yesterday. And here is Steve Bannon. He's using profanity, guys. So that's how you you know, he means business. And Bill Barr, you can sit up there and say it's a great case. We're going to shove this up your ass. OK, we're going to shove it up your ass. You are freaking guilty of treason.

Big old you're guilty of treason and raise guilty of treason. There is no evidence whatsoever that William Barr has committed treason. There is no evidence whatsoever that FBI director has committed treason. There is no evidence whatsoever that FBI director chosen by Trump, Christopher Wray, has committed treason. And I will remind you, one of the big selling points that Trump listed about himself was that he would hire the best people, always the best people. And he hired two traders. He hired William Barr, a trader, and Christopher Wray, a trader. It doesn't say very much about Trump's ability to select employees, which was one of the big selling points. We go now from Steve Bannon to Carrie Lake. Carrie Lake is also using an extreme

filter on her camera. She is talking about how the NRA comments she made, how there are NRA members who will stand between, I guess, the Justice Department and Trump. It's not a threat. She says it's not a threat. Sure. Sounds like a threat to me. Take a listen. If they think they're going to hurt, lay a finger on our president, President Trump, they're going to have to come through me. And I made a mistake. I said 75 million others just like me. I think it's more like 300 million others just like me. People in this country who support.

There aren't even 300 million adults in the United States. What is she talking about? Trump, who know what's up, who know that that botched election was an attempt to prevent him from getting in office and cleaning up the corruption in our country. And I said I said, as an aside, and most of us are NRA members, that is not a threat. That is a public service announcement. It certainly sounds like a threat. And if you want to see exactly what it leads to, Freedom News TV interviewed Pat, a Trump

supporter who said January 6th is going to look like a playground compared to, I guess, what he's willing to do in Miami later today. This is serious, folks. Listen to this. A lot of my family blood spilled for this country. I'm not going to let it go to waste. I'm not. I refuse. I did 19 years here as a federal agent in Dade County. I'm just not going to let this country go to waste. And right now it's going to waste. Well, if he gets indoctrinated, January 6th is going to look like a playground. I assume he means indicted. I assume when Pat says indoctrinated, he means

indicted. It's going to look like a playground from the inside voices that I hear from all the militias and everything else. It's going to be a playground. But if they want to fight, bring it. I mean, I've been in I watch Kamala Harris in Orlando. I watched Antifa throw bottles, spit on my child, throw stuff at us. They told us to refrain ourselves. Really? What? OK, but it is what it is. This country is so left right now, but we got to bring it back to the right. We got to get right on the right path. We got to bring everything back. If we don't, we're going to crumble. We're going to be a third world nation. When I'm telling you guys when the world sees this, this will lead to our viewers from Germany and from the UK and from France and from Finland and from Sweden. I'm going to get email saying, David, what is wrong with the country? What is

happening there? We have to stand up for that flag. We have to stand up for our beliefs and we got to put God back in this country. If we forget about him, he's going to forget about us. And right now we're forgetting him and we're forgetting Israel. We forget both of those. Read your Bible, read your Bible, because there's a lot of boys like me that are ready. Right. All we need is an order. We're ready. They need an order and they are ready. Here's one more person they're talking to, I guess. OK, no, they're not. OK, that's the end of the interview. Let's hope for no violence today. That is my hope. The last thing we need on top of any of this is to cloud. What should be a political justice department actions and court cases with the

violence of these unhinged people, that's my hope that we do not see violence today. We have yet another former Trump staffer saying this is serious and Trump may end up in prison. Here is Mick Mulvaney, Donald Trump's own former chief of staff, previous to Mark Meadows, saying Trump indeed may end up doing prison time. I don't even agree with this, but this is Mick Mulvaney himself saying it. If Donald Trump had done what Joe Biden did here, what Mike Pence did here, when they found their classified documents, they gave them back. And there's no charges against Pence. There's not going to be charges against Biden. The difference here is what Trump did to try and cover up what he did in the first place. As is so often the case, it's not the underlying crime. It's the interference. It's the cover up that gets folks in trouble. And they have him

with significant evidence, it looks like, as to obstruction. So I think the chances of a guilty verdict are fairly high, and the chances of real jail time are pretty high. And when you say real jail time, how long might that be? Well, at his age, it doesn't really make much difference, right? I think the maximum, if you add up all the math, the maximum could be over 500 years. The minimum would be 100 years. I don't even think I agree with Mick Mulvaney. And I've said all along, I don't believe Donald Trump will do a day of prison time, period. However, I will say that over the last 72 hours, I have moved ever so slightly in the direction of maybe maybe there will be some jail time for Trump. It's it's I'm now in the realm of before I was in absolutely no way in hell.

After speaking to a couple of lawyers, reading through the indictment, reading about the law around the allegations for which Trump is going to be charged, looking at a few different things. I am now I've moved from no way in hell. Trump does prison time, too. It is extremely unlikely but possible that Trump ends up with something. It could, however, end up being one of these. Well, he will serve it at his house with an ankle monitor,

which, by the way, I would still accept at this point in time. All right. So Mick Mulvaney also now on the list of former Trump staffers who says this is serious and Trump could be toast to quote William Barr. We'll see who else comes out of the woodwork. We have a voicemail number that you can call any time of day. That number is two one nine two. David P. We receive political questions at this number. We receive trolling. We receive insults and attacks on me. We receive anti-Semitic comments. We also sometimes receive interesting questions like the following about raising bilingual children. Listen to this. Speaker 4 Prime Minister Packman, this is Anne from Long Island.

Yes. I'm calling to get your opinion about raising bilingual children. Where I live, there's a lot of Central Americans, and as many of them as there are, there are equal number of opinions about what is the best way to have bilingual kids. Right. I read one time that one parent should speak in one language and the other a different language. So I just was interested in your opinion. Thank you. Bye. Speaker 1 OK, this has absolutely nothing to do with the typical content of this show.

My opinion is based on what I've read and people I've spoken to that, indeed, one of the best ways to raise a child bilingual is for each parent to exclusively speak a particular language with the child. This is what we are doing with my daughter. I only speak to my daughter in Spanish. And so far, it's working fine. It's very she says some words in English and Spanish. She very clearly understands the things I say to her in Spanish, as evidenced by, you know, if I tell her to wave in Spanish, she'll wave or ask her about do you want to turn on my espresso machine? And she points at it. This is what we're doing. And then the next thing may be like when daycare starts a full Spanish immersion daycare. So that's what I'm doing.

I can't speak to the linguistic justification for it. It's just what I've been told and what I read. We'll see how it works out. Right. Ask me in five years. OK, we have a fantastic bonus show for you today. Student loan payments are scheduled to start again in October, and this has generated a lot of confusion among some.

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