The David Pakman Show - 6/4/25: Elon turns on Trump, Republicans nuking Medicaid

Episode Date: June 4, 2025

-- On the Show: -- Governor Phil Muprhy (D-NJ) joins David to discuss New Jersey's economy in the wake of Donald Trump's tariff program, the future of the Democratic Party, and much more — Republican Senator Roger Marshall says gutting Medicaid is how you “strengthen” it, in the latest episode of MAGA logic — Elon Musk turns on Trump, calling his budget bill a “disgusting abomination” that explodes the deficit — Trump begs the Fed to bail him out after a disastrous jobs report signals economic slowdown — Press Secretary Karoline Leavitt crashes and burns under even the simplest press questions — Don Jr. flails under questioning about Trump’s crypto scheme, claiming it’s “hard to know where the money’s coming from” — Fox News hosts melt down over Trump being called “TACO,” proving once again that his ego is paper-thin -- On the Bonus Show: Florida weathermen say they can’t predict hurricanes due to budget cuts, Texas considers warning labels on Doritos and M&Ms, and Chuck Todd says his tires were slashed after Trump targeted him, much more… 🖼️ Aura Frames: Use code PAKMAN for $30 OFF & free shipping at https://auraframes.com/pakman 🔬 Freedom From Religion Foundation: Text DAVID to 511511 or visit https://ffrf.us/freedom ⚠️ Ground News: Get 40% OFF their unlimited access Vantage plan at https://ground.news/pakman 🍷 Naked Wines: Use code PAKMAN to get 6 bottles for $39.99 at https://nakedwines.com/pakman 💵 Sponsored by Ridge Wallet: Get up to 40% OFF at https://ridge.com/pakman 🩳 SHEATH Underwear: Code PAKMAN for 20% OFF at https://sheathunderwear.com/pakman -- Become a Member: https://davidpakman.com/membership -- Become a Patron: https://www.patreon.com/davidpakmanshow -- Get David's Books: https://davidpakman.com/echo -- TDPS Subreddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/thedavidpakmanshow -- David on Bluesky: https://davidpakman.com/bluesky -- David on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/davidpakmanshow  

Welcome, everybody. You know, one of the things in American politics that sometimes takes getting used to, I guess we could say, is that it often is the case that something whose logic is completely backwards becomes mainstream and it gets repeated and repeated and repeated uncritically. So much so that people who are applying critical thinking will start to doubt themselves. It's almost like a self gaslighting where they will go, even though it makes no sense to me, it must make sense to someone because they keep hearing it.

Let me give you an example, because I know I'm speaking sort of abstractly. Cut Medicaid to strengthen Medicaid. Most people would hear that and they would say, wait a second, how do you strengthen it by cutting it? Well, Republicans have been repeating that endlessly and it's sort of presented as a genius new plan. Let's make Medicaid better by cutting it. And we're going to look at an example clip of this.

It's Republican Senator Roger Marshall, who loves gutting health care for low income Americans. But he's framing it as we're doing them a favor. Everybody should be thrilled that we're doing this to Medicaid. It's like saying we're going to help the hungry by taking away their food stamps. How is that going to help the hungry by taking away their food stamps. How is that going to help anybody? Well, we're going to have a lot more food floating around since they won't have food stamps with which to get the food. It makes no sense.

But that's essentially what they're doing. And this is not a gaffe. This is the strategy. So let's talk about it after we take a look at this clip. I believe that you will have the votes for this package and you will be able to identify more spending cuts by the July 4th deadline or is just going to take longer. clip. Medicaid cuts that are going to strengthen Medicaid and save it for those who need it the most. So we're pretty far apart yet. We have 53 Republican senators, we have 53 opinions, we're trying to work through all that. I've been real impressed with John Thune and Mike Crapo's ability to bring everybody together. You know, they're leading the charge right now,

so I have confidence we'll get there, but we're not done, Maria. We will need to come back and do more rescissions, but also take a second and third bite of this apple. Let's get the one big, beautiful bill across the finish line. Then let's come back and get a second and third bite. All right. Now, I know that my audience has a penchant for thinking critically, thinking for yourself, really trying to think through the logic. For example, if we cut taxes for the rich, how exactly is that good for poor people?

You think it through, you go, oh, it's actually not. That's a lie that's been told. So let me explain to you the scam that they have been running for a very long time. And this is less about the Republican Party than it is sort of more broadly about this right wing ideology. Sabotage a public program. Point to how dysfunctional it is because you sabotage sabotaged it and then say, see, it doesn't work.

Government involvement doesn't work. The program doesn't work. Let's privatize it. Let's slash even more funding. Let's completely kill it. This is an old pattern in American politics and right wing politics and even globally. So I'll give you a few examples of when Republicans have done this. They dismantle they handicap program, then say it sucks.

And then they say it's so crappy, it should be dismantled. The U.S. Postal Service Republicans passed a law 20 years ago that made the USPS have to pre fund 75 years of retiree benefits. Why no private sector company does that doesn't make any sense to do that. But when you do that, it throws the books of the USPS out of whack and then they go, look, it's completely upside down financially. Let's privatize it. Let's end this thing.

Number two, public education. Republican lawmakers love slashing funding for public schools. And then they go, look, these schools are failing. Let's promote private schools. Let's do charter schools that take even more money away from private schools and then the from public schools rather. And then the public schools get even worse. Number three, Obamacare. After it became clear that simply rescinding Obamacare wasn't going to happen, they tried

to sabotage it, cut the budget for advertising to people. There is a thing as health care dot gov. So people don't know they don't use it. That hampers the program. Eliminate the cost sharing subsidies, block Medicaid expansion at the state level. And then they said, look, we passed Obamacare, but premiums are still going up. Well, to a degree, it's because of the problems that you are creating. And of course, to a degree, the idea is Obamacare didn't stop premiums from going up, but they

went up a little more slowly within health care dot gov's plans. OK, getting into the details of Veterans Affairs, the VA, instead of investing in the VA system, Republicans underfunded and then they go look at the wait times in the VA system. Let's privatize. Let's do veterans choice and bring things into the private sector. Amtrak there's so many examples of this chronically under fund Amtrak have limited routes. Don't do route expansion. Keep the number of trains limited. You know, there's sort of an anecdotal story from where I grew up in Western Massachusetts, where they finally

got a train from Northampton, Massachusetts to New York City, except the scheduling and the routing is number one, insanely slow and two, makes it impossible to do a day trip, which the idea would be some commuters. If you could get in and out reasonably on on that route with one day, you could go down, have meetings or whatever you have to do and then come back. The scheduling and the duration of the route make it impossible. I don't know anyone who chooses to take that train instead of driving for these one day sort of business type trips because it's just an impossibility.

So Amtrak and then food stamps as well. Add work requirements, add paperwork, delay to reduce enrollment and then say, look, this program has fraud. It's not helping people. Let's get rid of it. That let's let's kneecap it. So none of this about let's cut Medicaid to strengthen Medicaid is actually about making Medicaid better.

It's about making Medicaid unusable. So then they can say it's failing. Let's get rid of it. Now, do they really think that voters will buy this? Maybe not, but that's not really the point anymore. They're not even trying to make sense. They're building a narrative to justify cruelty. And at this point, they even believe their own lies.

And the clown show doesn't stop there. I've got one more Roger Marshall clip here trying to explain to Maria Bartiromo, how do you grow the economy? We had this decline in GDP in Q1. Now we basically need 4 percent growth for what's left of the year in order to end up somewhere around 2 percent growth. How do you do it? And Roger Marshall goes, our attitude points, a lot of these senators are not really looking at the kind of growth that you're expecting or that the White House is expecting.

Kevin has it said to expect 4%, potentially, 4% growth in the second half of the year. What would trigger that kind of growth, in your view, in the second half? Lying. Well, I think number one is just an attitude. Already back home, I'm seeing manufacturing jobs grow and grow and grow that we can't keep up

with the orders, and I think that's probably because of President Trump's tariffs. I think the deregulation will add a half percent, maybe a one percent growth. I think those are the first steps. But it's just this general attitude that we're the start of a new of a new economy. I think that the American consumer still drives the economy in so many ways. And I think that this tax bill alone is going to drive up growth as well by making those Trump tax cuts permanent.

It's going to give a significant growth. I think about R&D especially. Yeah, listen, I am a beneficiary of those Trump tax cuts insofar as it introduced something called the qualified business income deduction. I don't think I deserve it. I will take it. Sure. But I can assure you it's not driving growth.

That doesn't make any sense. Now, as far as we need the right attitude, I would go further. I would say cross your fingers and toes as well, although does that cancel it out? I'm not sure. It's just attitude, guys. That's all you need. And so this reflects a deeper Republican problem right now. They have replaced policy with vibes.

We have to have the right attitude as a form of saying the vibes need to be right. Trump started this. He didn't understand the economy. He felt like a successful businessman. He told people, I know what we need to do intuitively. And people like Roger Marshall are now doing the exact same thing, which is if we believe hard enough, maybe we do a little prayer. Who knows? The economy is simply going to flourish. Negative GDP growth and Q1 be damned. And by the way, Q1, of course, January, March, January, February, March, April, May, June

is Q2. So we're in now the final month of Q2 in about one month. We will find out the GDP number for Q2. I hope that it's up. There are fears that it will be even more negative than Q1. And that's going to put us in an even bigger hole. So you don't fix a broken engine with prayer or by complimenting the engine. You're such a beautiful engine. I've never

seen piston rods like yours. You actually have to do something that mechanically works. What Roger Marshall is doing is getting us nowhere. And, you know, the latest person to turn on this entire thing, his name rhymes with Leon Fusk. Let me talk about that. After months of being Donald Trump's favorite tech bro, Elon Musk is now torching Donald Trump's only potential legislative accomplishment, policy accomplishment, his tax bill as a, quote, disgusting abomination. Those are Elon's words, not mine.

This is, of course, the same bill that Trump's been calling his one big, beautiful bill like a dystopian marketing campaign. The bill, of course, includes tax changes, slashes to government programs, cuts to Medicaid, enough pork to open up a barbecue joint on Capitol Hill. And up until last week, Elon Musk was officially working on the spending initiative. He was a special government employee for Doge, the Department of Government Efficiency. He's now decided he's had enough. He took to X and put out a couple of excretions, really nasty stuff where he said, quote, I'm

sorry, but I just can't stand it anymore. This massive, outrageous, pork filled congressional spending bill is a disgusting abomination. Shame on those who voted for it. You know, you did wrong. You know it. And then continuing with another one where he says, quote, it will massively increase the already gigantic budget deficit to two point five trillion and burden America citizens with crushingly unsustainable debt.

He's even doing a little math. Musk is saying the bill is going to balloon the deficit. It's going to saddle Americans with what he says is unsustainable debt. Now this is coming from the same Elon Musk who poured 250 million bucks, bucks into getting Trump reelected into 25 million into that Wisconsin Supreme Court race, which he lost, by the way. And now Elon Musk is posting like he's on the outside looking in and like he's a critic of what's going on.

So the question, of course, is what changed? How did Elon Musk end up in this situation? The answer is nothing really changed. Trump's been pushing the reckless economic policy from day one. The difference is that the grift and the lies are starting to catch up with Elon Musk. The cult is sort of cracking under the weight of its own bullshit. This was always going to happen. I've been saying it over and over and over again that this alliance between Musk and

Trump was unstable. It was unsustainable. It was based on ego and not policy. I guessed it would last no more than six months. And it turns out even I overestimated because we're now watching it explode in real time. And meanwhile, the White House is pretending none of this matters. Later, we're going to hear from press secretary Caroline Levitt. And she shrugged it off and she goes, the bill is beautiful.

The bill is big. Trump sticking to it. It doesn't matter what Elon Musk says. But Trump is having a problem. I do still believe they're going to modify it and get it through the Senate. But in its House form, it's a major problem. We also, by the way, saw in the House Republican Congressman Thomas Massey, a libertarian leaning Republican. He sided with Elon Musk. Rand Paul is out there in the Senate saying that this is a

multi trillion dollar debt ceiling hike that the United States can't afford. Trump, of course, responded by attacking Rand Paul, saying he just votes against stuff. You know, don't don't listen to him. So this is a real political mess right now. There is one real bill that Trump things might happen later in the year. But as of right now, the only thing on the table as a policy accomplishment for Trump is the potential of this bill. Put aside whether the bill would be good or bad. Just is there an accomplishment here? Well, if they can get it done, there is. It's completely unraveling. The economic message is unraveling.

The inner circle is splitting. And now his sort of billionaire hype man, Elon Musk, is running for cover. So I don't think this is the beginning of the end necessarily. I think they're going to get it through in some form, but it is yet another crack in the facade of mega Trump isms economic policy. And all of this was so damn predictable. And it's not even about patting myself on the back. Anybody who's been following this stuff for any period of time knew that it was eventually

going to implode between Elon Musk and Donald Trump. It now has. Let's see what happens with the bill. We now have forking paths. Let's see what happens with the bill. We now have forking paths. Let's see what happens with the bill and let's see what happens with Elon Musk's growingly aggressive criticism of what Trump is up to. Make sure you're getting my daily newsletter for more on these and other stories. You can sign up for it at David Pakman dot com or email info at David Pakman dot com

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A compact power bank that charges wirelessly has built in cables, even includes a kickstand. our com slash Pakman for 40 percent off. That's ridge dot com slash Pakman for experience, which includes a daily extra show called The Bonus Show, commercial free audio and video feeds of the show every single day, a members only sound board on our website and a whole bunch of other great stuff. You can read about it and sign up at Join Pakman Dotcom. We have a new jobs report. It's not good. And the desperate Donald Trump is now begging, begging the Fed cut rates, please cut rates. So here's what's going on. New data from payroll firm ADP shows that private sector hiring has slowed to a crawl

in the month of May. Only thirty seven thousand jobs added. This is the worst new jobs number in a single month in more than two years. It's less than half of April's already disappointing number. It is way below what economists expected. One hundred and ten thousand jobs, thirty seven thousand jobs added private sector as compared to 110000. Trump's reaction, not a plan, not accountability.

Certainly he is demanding that the Federal Reserve bail him out. He immediately posted to Truth Social, quote, ADP number out too late. Powell, referring to Fed chair Jerome Powell too late. Powell must now lower the rate. He is unbelievable. Europe has lowered nine times central. Yeah. On truth.

When Donald Trump's let's talk about rates. OK, when Donald Trump says lower the rate, he's talking about the federal reserves benchmark interest rate, sometimes known as the federal funds rate, the overnight rate, et cetera. This is the rate that the Fed uses to influence economic activity. When you lower the federal funds rate, it makes borrowing cheaper, which can get more people borrowing money, spending, hiring to try to grow their businesses. If it's really if the cost of borrowing is high, it dissuades people from doing it. If the cost of borrowing is low, think about yourself as an example.

If you had to borrow money to do, I don't know, a home renovation. If the cost of borrowing the money is an eight percent interest, you would be less likely to do it than if the cost of borrowing was a two percent interest, you would be less likely to do it than if the cost of borrowing was a two percent interest, because it would be less financially viable as an investment if on top of the cost of the renovation, you're paying eight percent interest instead of two. It's the same logic here, essentially. So that's what Trump is talking about when he says he's got to lower the rate.

The Fed usually will cut rates in response to a serious economic downturn, not just like a single jobs report that's bad or a couple of jobs reports that are below expectations. Now, I'm going to admit to you, the Fed is in a tough spot. I don't think we're yet at the point where it's obvious that the Fed needs to lower rates. Inflation is still sort of a question mark in terms of where is it going to go? Interest rates have been kept relatively high to try to cool prices. If you lower rates too soon, you can start an inflation spiral going up. But Trump doesn't really care about that.

Trump's worried about the optics of a weakening economy heading into the midterms and reelections for Republicans and just generally the way that it's going to impact his presidency, it is Clear that a rate cut would sort of juice to the economy artificially in the short term It'll give Trump a political talking point. Oh stocks are up and whatever hiring's up but the problem is that the slowdown is happening on Trump's watch and Trump's own policies are part of the story. The tariffs raise the cost of doing business. And Trump goes, OK, I'm doing something to raise the cost of doing business. Now I want the Fed to bail me out by lowering rates, which lowers the cost of doing business.

And the Fed is, at least for now, seemingly unwilling to do that. Even large companies have been reducing hiring. Wages are sort of stalling. You've got midsize companies really carrying the weight of job creation. Now, Trump's rate cut is also interesting for another reason. He is acknowledging that the economy is softening and he wants a quick fix. You don't demand a rate cut if you're convinced that the economy is doing awesome. And so while that's what Trump is saying, he at the same time is acknowledging it's not so hot

because you don't demand rate cuts desperately the way he's doing it if everything is actually working that well. Now, the Fed chair is independent, supposedly. Jerome Powell does not work for the White House. He is theoretically, you know, I have to use all these qualifiers because of the world war and he's theoretically insulated from political pressure and the Fed is going to make the decisions that it's going to make. One last thing in his troth, Trump says Europe has lowered rates nine times, so we should as well.

The truth is, Europe's dealing with a very different inflation environment and is dealing with weaker economic growth until Q1 GDP went down. So that's why Q2 GDP will be so interesting. The comparison to Europe doesn't really make sense, but Trump still uses it to try to pressure the Fed to do what he wants. So the bottom line here is we've got warning signs from this economy. Trump's first instinct is yell at somebody else to try to fix it, not to change course on the tariffs, not to deal with the root causes, just like tell the Fed what to do. It's not really economic strategy.

It's damage control dressed up as monetary policy. And voters seem to be seeing through it. Why do I say that? You look at consumer confidence. It's been falling steadily since January and it hit its lowest point in nearly a year. So people are feeling what Trump seems to be acknowledging by demanding the rate cut. It's a feedback loop. Trump's tariff fiasco helped to create it.

And now he's begging for help from somebody else. Now how is Caroline Levitt going to deal with the growing list of concerns about the economy? Let's talk about that. Caroline Levitt held a press conference yesterday. She's Donald Trump's deranged and dilapidated White House press secretary. And she took the bait from everybody. Fox News is Peter Doocy held up some copies of President Biden's final pardons and suggested some of these aren't authentic.

This is, of course, buying into this conspiracy theory from Donald Trump that Biden didn't even know what he was doing because of the auto pen. And it's he has no idea. Here is Peter Doocy raising this issue. Here's how Caroline Levitt handled it. When you look at these last minute Biden pardons, the big ones, Biden siblings, Fauci, January 6th committee. Right.

Most of the big ones have the same very neat signature. We would expect that probably to be the auto pen. There is one that looks different. It looks authentic. In fact, if you look at the last name, it almost looks like the president was having a hard time spelling his last name there. Is this White House of the opinion that the only pardon that would count is one that the president signed himself?

It's very interesting, very interesting props. If you want to bring them to my office later so I can take it. It's like show and tell. Those are look. I would like to do that. The president is making a good point when he discusses the usage of the auto pen. Who was running the country for the past four years? We're wondering who's running it now. Also, perhaps those documents were signed with the auto pen, something that this I believe the Department of Justice is looking into. As you saw, Ed Martin made an announcement at the Department of Justice this morning to launch an investigation because the American people deserve answers.

Yeah, a little bit of speculation. I think that what you're holding up, Peter, despite, of course, these being copies, by the way, we believe those may have been signed with the auto pen is how when did this become the job of the White House press secretary to irresponsibly speculate and placate the wildest whims and conspiracy theories of the orange man in the Oval Office, I guess under Kayleigh McEnany, at minimum. Once again, the topic of this Maha report, this Make America Healthy Again report, which had citations to studies that do not exist or that have no relevance to the conclusions from Robert F. Kennedy's report.

Caroline Levitt last week sort of chalked them up to formatting errors that would be like, oh, I used a numbered list instead of bulleted. My indentation was wrong. The header was a quarter of an inch too big. No, they referenced studies that don't exist. Caroline Levitt asked about it and she goes, yes, just formatting. I just wanted to follow up on your statement last week regarding the report. You said that there was you said, I understand there were some formatting issues with the

report that are being addressed and that report will be updated. We also understand that since that there have been some citations that came about, the citations of studies that either did not exist or did not back up the reports conclusions. So when you were referring to formatting errors, is that what you were talking about or was it so it could you just explain that? Yes. The citation for a study that didn't exist is simply a formatting error. Yeah, that's what I was talking about.

There were formatting errors and those errors were updated by the proper policy components here at the White House and a new report was issued. So exactly what I said took place. There you go. She's thrilled. Exactly what I said took place. Except, of course, we all know formatting errors are I use the wrong font. The pages were out of order. We're supposed to use MLA style citations,

but we use Chicago style referencing studies that do not exist to justify conclusions that are not in line with science is not a formatting error. But it's the White House press secretary. She doesn't. I would actually not be surprised if at this point even she believes her own lies. I think she's getting high on her own supply for lack of a better term. All right. Back to Peter Doocy. Peter Doocy asking for a reaction to the earlier excretions of Elon Musk, where Elon put out an X that the big, beautiful bill is a disgusting abomination.

Here is Caroline Levitt's reaction to that thing that just crossed. Caroline, how mad do you think President Trump is going to be when he finds out that Elon Musk said, I'm sorry, but I just can't stand it anymore. This massive, outrageous, pork filled congressional spending bill is a disgusting abomination. Shame on those who voted for it. You know you did wrong. You know it. Look, the president already knows where Elon Musk stood on this bill. It doesn't change the president's opinion. This is one big, beautiful bill and he's sticking to it. There you go.

As is always the case with Trump, he will never revise or change his opinion. He will only later quietly change his opinion, act as though it was always his opinion in these desperate sort of face saving attempts. But Trump is pushing forward. A reporter at the White House press briefing room then suggested that Pride Month be renamed to Nuclear Family Month. What a beautiful suggestion. Congresswoman Mary Miller suggested that changing pride month to family month.

I would personally like to see maybe a nuclear family month. Some people are saying nuclear. Let's get a veterans month. Does the president have any plans on making a proclamation or is it just going to be June this year? Well, there are no plans for a proclamation for the month of June, but I can tell you, this president is very proud to be a president for all Americans, regardless of race, religion or creed.

There you go. Actually. So Caroline Levitt, they're sort of stepping out and going, that's, that's a little too wacky. That's a little too unnecessarily inflammatory. She did not take the bait on that one. We then get to trade deals. And I just absolutely love this.

Remember 90 deals in 90 days. We then went to zero deals in 115 days. We are now at maybe one deal next week. And Caroline Levitt seems to acknowledge here that this rather than being at 90 deals in 90 days, we are at we are sending letters to countries asking them to negotiate with us. Not exactly a sign of strength. Writers was reporting that there is a letter that is meant to be sent to other countries, which would give these countries a deadline of Wednesday to produce their best offer on

the trade matter. Why does the administration feel the need to send this letter? And I have one more follow up on. Sure. I can confirm the merits in the content of the letter. USTR sent this letter to all of our trading partners just to give them a friendly reminder that the deadline is coming up and they are in talks. Ambassador Greer, Secretary Besson, Secretary Lutnick are in talks with many of our key trading partners around talks.

We are now having talks on the globe. As you know, Brian, I know the Wall Street Journal has covered this quite heavily and they continue to be engaged in those discussions. And this letter was simply to remind these countries that the deadline is approaching and the president expects good deals. And we are on track for that. I will emphasize. Obviously, we are not on track for that. I will emphasize. Obviously, we are not on track for 90 deals in 90 days.

And it's very funny because it reeks of desperation to say, we just sent them letters reminding them that the deadline is coming up. Don't you think that if these countries were really motivated, incentivized, afraid of what might happen if they don't negotiate the way we were told that they would be. Do you really think you'd have to send them a reminder that the deadline is coming up? Pathetic, pathetic. And then finally, always at the vanguard of what's going on in Trump's head, Caroline Leavitt asked any reaction to the South Korean election.

And Caroline's Levitt answers is very fair. Does the White House have a reaction to the results of the election? Yes, we do. In fact, let me find it here for you. Should be somewhere in here. We do not, but I will get you on. When when she gets a question that requires her to give an answer that's not praising

Trump, trashing Biden or attacking Democrats, she's got nothing. And these press briefings, I can only imagine, are going to get worse, more depraved, more dilapidated and more humiliating. Really not an arm of information at this point, more an arm of disinformation. If you're like me, you may have found yourself standing in front of a massive wall of wine at the grocery store, clueless and unsure what to pick. Thankfully, I found a better way. And that's naked wines. Our sponsor, Naked Wines, just connects you directly with the best independent winemakers

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And across the country right now, we see these Christian nationalists really emboldened by the MAGA movement and they're reshaping America. And it's terrifying. This is why I support the freedom from religion foundation. They've been fighting back since 1978 defending the separation of church and state in courts, in schools and wherever religion tries to take control. If you believe, as I do, that government should represent everyone, not just the religious right. Take action now. Go to FFRF dot U.S. slash freedom or just text the word David to five one one five one one. Go to FFRF dot U.S. slash freedom or text David to five one

one five one one. The info is in the podcast description. Text fees may apply. It's great to welcome to the program today the governor of New Jersey, Phil Murphy, a governor. So great to have you on. Really appreciate it. Thank you very much, David, for having me. And as I mentioned, I'm a big fan and honored to be with you. It's the the the honor is here as well. So I want to start by talking about New Jersey in twenty twenty four. The margin of victory for Kamala Harris was surprisingly narrow to me. Six points compared to just a massive win for former President Biden. Hillary Clinton even in losing in 2016 won won New Jersey by 16 by 16 points. What is happening politically in the state that we can glean from that presidential result

just a few months ago? Yeah, it's a good question. And I'm not sure there's a crisp singular answer. If you look at New York, New Jersey, Maryland, Illinois, California, they all moved 10 or 12 points to the right relative to the 2020 presidential. I love two minds. On the one hand, I think it is very specific to Donald Trump. And we're going to find out because we've got a governor's race this year. We're one of two states that have statewide races this year, Virginia and New Jersey governor. But on the other hand, you take nothing for granted. It's a pretty sobering result.

Republicans have been out registering Democrats over the past many months. Now that's up against a very significant still remaining registration advantage for Democrats. And I think we're not immune to the general issue right now with our party. If that is we're viewed to not have our act together or have momentum or have a crisp message. I think we're doing a decent job of that in New Jersey. We're living at the kitchen table, which is where I think you go to if you've got a message or substance

issue. But time will tell, as I say, we've got a real test this year. Primaries are next week. The generals in November. We shall see. One of the things I want to ask you about now as this big, beautiful bill has been passed by the House of Representatives is going to the Senate. The salt cap, the cap on state and local tax deductions for states like New Jersey, New York, Connecticut, Massachusetts. This has been a very big deal since it passed as part of the 2017 tax bill that that Republicans passed.

And I think theoretically, the audience understands, OK, if you are in some of these blue states that might have higher income taxes and property taxes, you very quickly lose the benefit of being able to deduct those taxes when a limit is placed arbitrarily at, say, ten thousand dollars or wherever the case may be. What I'm curious is, as the administrator of New Jersey, that means the people in your state now have less disposable income to put into the small businesses that are there. So there's like a real sort of trickle down effect from the salt cap that may be lost on people. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Yeah, I mean, this is it. As you rightfully point out, this has been in place now for a number of years. Partly because of the pandemic, but partly because I will say a lot of policy moves that were made in New Jersey. We've been able to mitigate that pain. That doesn't mean that we like it. We want to see this lifted entirely, never mind this modest lift that the so-called big beautiful bill accomplishes. But right now with New Jersey, we've never had more people living here, employed

here, businesses in operation here. Revenues are at an all-time high. I'm not going to avoid it because as you know, the national and global environment is highly volatile. But I'd love to see the cap lifted entirely. The modest lift is one of the failed elements of this big, beautiful building, which we could get into if, should you want to, but Medicaid cuts, it's inflationary, it doesn't lift the cap on state and local taxes sufficiently, on and on and on. So the answer is it's had some impact,

but that impact has been mitigated by a couple of big mega forces, including things that have gone quite well here. But we still hope to get this cap lifted for short. What about the tariffs, the you know, which are on again, off again, depending what day you check? What has been the effect there at the New Jersey state level? Too early to tell.

But, you know, for instance, New Jersey is one of 36 states where Canada is our number one trading partner. So if these go into effect ultimately and on the way, the on again off again, it has made America less reliable, which is not good for the home team. Right. Forget New Jersey for a moment. That's bad for America. A strong dollar is in our national interests. We should be seen to be sticking by our allies and being a reliable partner. This whole herky-jerky past several months is that good for the home team. But New Jersey won't be immune. If these tariffs go into place, we will not be immune. We have one kind of historical

benefit, if you will, in this context. We used to be a big metal vendor state. We used to be a big car, truck, chemical state. Frankly, I wish we had a good chunk of that back, but we don't. day. Right. Frankly, I wish we had a good chunk of that back, but we don't. We're now the quintessential innovation economy, tech, telecom, biopharma, life sciences, green economy, film, television, digital, fintech. That's where we make our living in New Jersey. That is similar in many respects from Massachusetts, where you are. That type of economy is going to be less

impacted than the so-called metalbender economies. So on the margin, New Jersey, probably less impacted, but not immune. This is inflationary. Consumers will pay through the nose for these tariffs. And New Jersey, as I say, will not be able to skirt this. You seem to be, at least from what I see in the media, one of the governors who's maintained a little more of a cordial relationship with Donald Trump. Is that perception correct? And talk a little bit about that. Is it like the New York, New Jersey thing that there's sort of like some something there

that that keeps it more cordial? How do you see a relationship with the president? Yeah, I think it begins with a couple of things. One is New Jersey is a state of interest for the president. I think you could argue without any question that Florida is his primary residence and legally and spiritually. But New Jersey is also a state where he has a home, he has significant roots, he had a big history in Atlantic City. It's adjacent to New York, where he obviously grew up. So that's one big reason. Secondly, during the

darkest days of the pandemic, I know folks may react to this now with the subsequent history, but he and his team were incredibly important partners to us in the early days, Arch April, May, June of 2020. And for all the loss of life that we suffered in New Jersey, it would have been a lot worse without his team's help and partnership. And again, I know folks hear that now, particularly on my side of the aisle, and say, what are you saying, man? The fact of the matter is it's true. And we're staying in touch. I'm going to see you up this weekend for a few moments. It doesn't mean I agree with a whole lot of what's going on. I certainly don't. But it also doesn't mean that if there's common ground to be found, that we won't be aggressive in trying to find that.

Historically for us, beyond the pandemic, that's been largely in infrastructure and transportation. Spent a lot of time with Secretary Sean Duffy over the past number of months, by example. But yes, I think we could choose to disagree if we do so aggressively and a whole lot of stuff, but still find commonality where we can. What did he do early in the pandemic specifically that was so useful for New Jersey? I would say this. You'll recall that when the pandemic first hit America, it was Metro New York that hit

the US hardest, earliest. And that's where we were crushed. They helped us get stuff that we were running out of, in particular ventilators, PPE more broadly. They were sort of the lender of last resort, if you will, in helping us source of things that we were literally I think at ventilators, we were down to single digits. And I give them a lot of credit for their help early on. I want to talk to you a little bit about your view as to where the Democratic Party should go over the next two and four years. You know, we've spoken to other governors, members of the Senate, members of the House.

Everybody has their sort of view as to what kind of needs to happen. One of the big divides right now is generationally, should the presidential candidate be significantly younger than former President Biden? Or is that not really super important? Ideologically, there's a question as to move to the middle versus move further to the left. And you can kind of combine these different questions in different ways. What's your sense of what needs to happen? I'd say three things.

I'm not obsessed with age. I think we've got an extraordinary bench. The bench so happens to be, covers largely as the fat middle, if you will, the demographic of that bench. Is that a very old bench? We've got some terrific talent unbiased toward governors. I just look at the Democratic governors right now and say, wow, this is an incredible group. So I'm not terribly concerned about the age question. I want a process that brings the best talent to the floor. Secondly, we got to live at the kitchen table. And when people ask me about myself, who am I? I say, you know who I am? I'm a proud progressive

and a cold-blooded capitalist, period. And I think you could be both. Those are not at odds with each other. But by any measure, you got to live at the kitchen table, affordability, opportunity, recapturing the reality, not this abstract American dream, but this is real for you and your children and their children. And then thirdly, the piece that gets less focused on, I was a big Howard Dean, 50-state strategy guy. It's that I gave up everything else in my professional life to become a full-time volunteer as the National Finance Chair to

raise the money for Howard's vision of the Democratic National Committee. We as a party consistently fail the tests, the basic unsexy plumbing, wiring. Are you in business in every state, up and down the ballot, knocking on every door, not just the home team doors, in a four-year cycle. The Republicans beat the crap out of us on all of what I've just said. Howard was the one clever over the past several decades. I think Ken Martin believes that that are the chair now at the DNC. Time will tell. But that to me is that's the three legged still encourage

the talent to come to the floor, limit the kitchen table, be both progressive and capitalist. It don't ignore the wiring and the plumbing. We do so in our peril. What do you say to the growing movement on the left that's actually much more overtly skeptical or even hostile to capitalism? I ask this as a non socialist myself, but I can't deny that there is this growing hankering for hey, capitalism's failing a lot of us. Let's try something different. What do you say to that wing?

I say unfettered capitalism is failing, folks. Capitalism is brought to you by the Democratic Party, by the likes of Bill Clinton, Barack Obama. That that that was the record is unambiguous that those were extraordinarily successful and inclusive years. That doesn't mean you can allow it to run free and not pay attention to the bumpers that you need in place. We've done that in New Jersey in a big way.

For instance, one example, we tried for a while to get the minimum wage raised meaningfully. We finally got it done. The naysayers were saying, you'll take the economy. Small businesses will go out of business. That didn't happen. In fact, the opposite happened because folks have more money to spend. They're more secure than middle class. There are a lot of false choices that are for us. And I think we have to push back on and clearly unfettered capitalism is different than capitalism brought to you by progressive, inclusive leaders. And that's that to me is the formula. Well, we've got a couple of very meaningful elections coming up here over the next few

years. A New Jersey governor, Phil Murphy, really appreciate your time today. Thanks so much. Thank you very much for having me. Guys in my audience, I know you're tired of the chafing with traditional underwear. Our sponsor she makes the most comfortable boxer briefs I've ever worn. If you're sick of the boxers that are too loose or the briefs that are too tight, sheath is for you.

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and get 20% off with the code Pacman. That's S H E a T H underwear.com slash Pacman. Use code Pacman for 20% off. The link is in the podcast notes. You know, every time we call out Donald Trump's authoritarianism, the right calls it media hysteria. But I want to remind you that Trump admits he's looking for ways to defy the constitution and maybe even pursue another term. Now if you don't know the bias behind your news, you might believe, Oh, Trump's just teasing us.

There's nothing here. Go to ground.news slash Pacman and see how media bias influences more than your perception from Trump's policy and ability to understand and undermine constitutional norms. I've been with ground news for years now because this is what they do. They expose the hidden agendas behind reporting sources and make it easy to compare coverage and understand is I haven't talked about Donald Trump Jr. for a while and he did a fascinating interview on CNBC yesterday, which reminded all of us that he is not exactly the smart one of the Trump kids. Which one is the smart, smart one? I don't know.

I think Ivanka, if I had to say. But it was very interesting because CNBC grilled him about Trump's whole crypto meme coin scam and his explanations, his defenses, his apologia really fell extraordinarily flat, just extraordinarily flat. Let's take a listen when he was asked about this by Andrew Ross Sorkin. This is actually good stuff. I like this. So let me ask you a question about the meme coin.

OK, you may not believe this. I want your father and this White House to have all the credibility in the world. And invariably, people are always going to question whatever any president does, but one of the things that people do demonstrably question is to say this meme coin that your father has creates the opportunity for foreign adversaries, people in the U.S., anybody they want to effectively funnel money to the president. It's as bad as Hunter's art or the Clinton Foundation with her getting back into the White House.

It just seems like a way that greases the skids for influence. I think, well, I think the main point you don't know who's actually doing any of these things, right? So, you know, it's different because it's hard to influence if you don't actually know where the stuff's coming from. Right. So, OK, so we've got it paused. Oh, think, think about what Don Jr. is saying.

Don Jr. is saying you can't influence Trump by buying the meme coin and funneling money to Trump because your name isn't attached to the purchases. That's his explanation. Now, aside from the generic absurdity of that, it's also untrue because I can go to Trump and I can say, hey, listen, we're going to be making a purchase of the meme coin. We are going to make a purchase of one hundred and fifty two point one million dollars worth or we're going to buy seven hundred and fifty two million nine hundred and eleven thousand. Right. And then that transaction goes through.

And of course, now you know who it's coming from because they told you an exact number in advance that they were going to purchase. So the idea that the information you Trump could have no idea who's investing in this thing, not to mention the dinner he held was for the top holders of the meme coin. So certainly you can, however they required, you take a screenshot or whatever you're the you prove that you have a certain amount of the coin. So it's just it's a laughable explanation.

I wasn't involved in the meme coin. I'm more focused on obviously the stable coin, the Bitcoin mining, you know, some of those things. But the reality is I think a lot of these things and you're not taking responsibility for the reality of the meme coin is it's sort of a proof of concept that the crypto world understands exactly what I was talking about earlier, that the markets may not necessarily be fair. The traditional banking system may not be fair to them.

So it's a proof of concept of what I think we can move the needle in crypto. And I think that's going to be the future of finance. It's going to be the future of banking almost without question. If we can accelerate that process by going all in on it. You've heard from people in the crypto industry. I imagine some of your friends who've said that some of these coins and what's happening may undermine a little bit of what's happening because people are questioning it. Right. I have not heard that from anyone. No, nobody's telling Don Jr. that they're keeping him completely insulated from that criticism. OK, so the defense is simply a lie. We have no way of knowing where the money's coming from from the meme coin. Well, somehow you figured

out who the top 200 holders were and you invited them for a surf and turf dinner that looked disgusting, by the way, at at Mar-a-Lago. So clearly you're able to figure out where the money's coming from. Then the topic comes up of 2020. And I'm going to present this one without any introduction. Take a listen. Yeah, thank you. The president is a lot of Democrats sort of wish they'd gotten it out of the way already in 2020.

All the Democrats had to do was shut up in 2020 because I'm not going to be gone already and 100 percent won anyway. It doesn't matter. You have a Democrat president right now. You wouldn't have a strong Republican bench, which we have now of people who are proven fighters who've been in the trenches. It's such a role reversal from what we've always seen where the Democrats always had a bad.

He's sticking with it, you know, out of what appears to be, as I've said, I don't think Don Jr. is the smart one, but I think he's smart enough to know that his dad didn't really win in 2020. But he's you know, he wants his dad to love him. And he's sticking with the lie that Trump is actually the winner in 2020. And then just one more here. The coup attempt became sort of a punchline during this inner flash. And he certainly couldn't have made a comeback if President Biden had addressed those issues.

Well, and and reelected in 2020. Yeah, well, yeah, I always think sometimes you have to hit rock bottom. And I think that was for him. He's talking about. I'm sorry. I take that back. I take it. Yeah, totally for you.. I take that back. It took four years of my life.

I totally for you. I take it back. But I think it did take the four years of Biden for America to realize how fragile some of these things are. He went from a time of prosperity to a time of poverty. He went from a time of peace to a time of war. These things happened when America wasn't leading with strength. It takes a little bit of that for us to understand just how fragile we were.

I think that brought back Trump. And you see, can you imagine what what a backwards analysis of the last four to six years. And one of the things that we often talk about is how do we disabuse people of false beliefs, beliefs not based in fact. And one of the sad realities is that a lot of that that framework that he just explained, we were at peace and then under Biden, we were at war and everything was just going so well. And all of a sudden, everything was just going so terribly, even though we can't find any

data to actually back that up. Those stubborn recalcitrant beliefs from people in the MAGA world like Don Junior, they're very sticky. They really stick. And there's a it's an uphill battle to sort of try to undo that. Fox News is having a full on meltdown over the taco Trump nickname. So I know there might be some in the audience who haven't heard of this. Taco is sending right wing media to DEF CON one. What TACO stands for is Trump always chickens out. It's just an acronym made to antagonize Donald Trump over the fact that there's a lot of bluster.

There's a lot of threats, a lot of claims that people are afraid of him with the idea that at the end of the day, he is the one who actually chickens out. It I guess hit a little too close to home. And here they are on Fox and Friends saying Trump's not a chicken. It's all working as part of a master plan. You're the chicken. Really mature stuff. So if you renegotiate, if you're negotiating and creating deals, they're trying to present

it as chicken in the Wall Street Journal started it. Actually, the Wall Street Journal is at war with the president when it comes to tariffs. Yeah, but it's also, you know, they started back to them. But they're also wrong when it comes to this. Right now, the president is getting the best deal for the American people right now. You've already started to see it in the stock markets as well. You see the manufacturing that's being brought back. You see the people that were traditional Democrats that are now on the Republican side of this

because he's fighting for them. He's brave. He's the bravest man in the world. And so they're thinking that using taco and the word chicken on Trump somehow is going to damage or put a dent in that Teflon image he has as a very brave person. Frankly, he is brave to take on tariffs. The way he's doing it with China, with all of them, it's working. And if he negotiates, well, that's what a deal is.

Listen, they're trying to reframe chickening out and backing off as negotiating. But we know there aren't really any negotiations going on. They're trying to start negotiations. They're sending letters. They're they're hoping that President Xi from China will talk to Trump. Trump has a paper thin ego and everyone around him knows it. If something sticks, even a dumb little nickname, it sets the entire right wing media machine into damage control mode.

And the goal isn't really to win the argument. It's make sure that Trump doesn't spiral into a tantrum because people are saying, oh, he's taco wing. He's chickening out again. And it's working. This is sort of like low energy Jeb all over again. But this time, instead of Trump being the one hurling the insult and the nickname, Trump's the punch line.

Trump hates being the punch line. And the more they yell that it's not funny and that it's not true, the funnier it gets. And the more we realize that it probably is true. Now, it reminds me a little bit of the whole these guys are weird thing, which was actually landing against Trump early in Kamala Harris's campaign. And then for some reason, Kamala Harris was convinced to drop it. I think it was like the consultants and strategists got in. But the taco thing is sort of like it's dumb and effective. And the fact that Fox four times during one Fox and Friends said, no, he's so brave, he's never chickening out.

He's negotiating. He's great. They have spent years building this cult around a guy who is so emotionally fragile and thin skinned that like a cafeteria nickname breaks the guy and they have to come to his defense. So this is not a strong man. It's a wannabe strong man. In reality, he's like a toddler with the nuclear codes, which don't get me wrong, is terrifying, completely terrifying.

On the bonus show today, a Florida weatherman says he will not be able to predict hurricanes as accurately this summer because of cuts to the federal budget involving FEMA and the National Weather Service. We talked about it yesterday. It's becoming a reality. Number two, Doritos and M&Ms could be forced to include warnings in Texas. What are the warnings? I'll tell you this.

It has to do with Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. And thirdly, Chuck Todd says that his tires were slashed after Trump called him out. We're going to talk about that very adult reaction from some mega petamines and much more on today's bonus show. Get instant access to the bonus show, including audio or video forms, whichever you prefer, by signing up at Join Pacman Dotcom. You can also get our daily sub stack newsletter soon to be relaunched and rebranded with a whole bunch of new content that I think you're going to like at David Pakman dot sub stack dot com. back tomorrow.