The David Pakman Show - 7/5/24: Progressive panel EXPLODES over Israel/Gaza

Episode Date: July 5, 2024

-- On the Show: -- A panel discussion on the state of the progressive movement in the United States featuring Brianna Wu, Executive Director of Rebellion PAC, Claudia De la Cruz, a community organizer and presidential candidate, and Nomiki Konst, a progressive activist and co-director of Losing Puerto Rico -- Become a Member: https://www.davidpakman.com/membership -- Become a Patron: https://www.patreon.com/davidpakmanshow -- TDPS Subreddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/thedavidpakmanshow -- Pakman Discord: https://www.davidpakman.com/discord -- David on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/davidpakmanshow -- Leave a Voicemail: (219)-2DAVIDP

. Today we'll be having a panel discussion on the progressive movement. Is it succeeding? Is it failing? Where is it going wrong? Where is it going right? We'll be joined by Brianna Wu, executive director of rebellion pack and former candidate for us house in Massachusetts.

Claudia Dela Cruz, community organizer currently running for president as a third party candidate with the party for socialism and liberation and no Mickey cons to progressive activist and co-director of losing Puerto Rico, a coalition campaign seeking to abolish a tax cut available in Puerto Rico. Let's discuss. So we are starting to look back at and think about next steps when it comes to the candidacy of President Joe Biden. We've all seen the debate.

And this conversation about November is now sort of happening concurrently and interwoven with the conversation about the future of the progressive movement and whether the democratic party is the venue for that. We saw some interesting losses last week, including that in the primary for Jamal Bowman, which maybe we will talk about. So just to start somewhere, uh, I'll start with you Brianna because zoom put you in the left most box. So so we'll just start there. You've made some criticisms of the state of the progressive movement. You've some some quite pointed,

in fact, with regard to some of the attitudes you use, the words cannibalistic and abusive in some viral tweets. Assess where you think this movement is right now and to what degree Biden is a good shepherd of that movement? So, you know, I was so happy Namiki was going to be on the show with me today because, you know, I feel like you faced a lot of these same forces. You know, when I got into progressive politics a decade ago, you know, it was really focused on women's rights. You know, today, it feels like the progressive movement just keeps getting smaller and smaller and smaller and smaller. You know, today, I think those same women getting harassed

online would be called Karens. You know, I think we are chopping off every single part of our coalition in ways that are making it very hard for us to win elections. I think what you're seeing right now with the war in Gaza is I think you're seeing progressivism, unfortunately, veer into straight anti-Semitism. And this entire time, the progressive movement has not done the bread and butter work that you need to do to win elections. You know, making fundraising lists, building up data infrastructure, building up candidates, and really building the coalition that we need to build in order to win elections. So, you know, unfortunately, I think progressives

are kind of giving into our worst instincts in ways that very tragically are making us unable to govern and unable to win elections. What do you think about that, Nomaki, as far as Breonna sees it? You know, I think the premise is pretty correct. I mean, it seems like somewhere around, I don't know, 2019, 2020, in the lead up to the presidential election where Bernie Sanders ran again, there were plenty of groups. There was a lot of hope. Obviously, the squad got elected. There were progressive wins all over the country. DSA was growing, which I was a member of. And then something started to change internally. And, you know, I've briefly kind of talked about this a lot behind the scenes, probably not so much publicly,

but I think it is a time where we have to say, you know, we as a left need to learn from history. And, you know, we're not killing progressives, unless you're from black and brown communities. But I mean, organized in terms of, like, let's say, like the 60s, we're not killing the progressive movement physically anymore. They're eating it up. And I, you know, I'm of the belief, it doesn't necessarily mean that progressives are, are going after each other. Intentionally, I think that we're falling for strategies, I mean, very careful with my words, I'm sorry. We're falling for something that is being led by folks that are intentionally setting up debates to so that we eat each other alive. It's not just can you give a couple of examples of that? Yeah. So, I mean,

OK, let's just get there. In 2020, suddenly you had this group of so-called progressive online folks all echoing force the vote, not understanding how Congress worked. And then basic, if you challenge them, you are being annihilated online. And anytime you call that out, or you went into, you know, the comment section, and you looked into like, who, who was, you know, echoing them, there were a lot of bots. It doesn't mean that everybody was a bot. There are influencers, there are folks who, you know, are, are, are paid to, I mean, this is not a secret out there. Like there are a lot of people who are paid to tweet a certain way professionally and sometimes from other folks. There are other folks who are incentivized, like suddenly their followings grew out of nowhere or their YouTube shows were getting tips from who knows where.

And then they're just straight up bots. And they all boost narratives. And then simultaneously, I mean, Brianna knows this very well because she was a victim of Gamergate. That was the incubator for this kind of operation. So that's one side of it. And then on the other side, you know, you saw the left kind of beating each other alive. And some of these people are like, like who weren't, by the way, some of these people weren't even on the left in 2016. I mean, it's comical to me that there's some people who jump online and character assassinate others based on falsehoods. Like I've had everything run me. I'm NATO, I'm CIA, I'm this, I'm that, like you name it, it's come after me. But I also know that's because, you know, my bread and butter was investigating finances. Or like you're in bed with DNC. I'm like, last I looked, I was in trouble with the DNC for investigating. But no, Miki, if I can just jump in for two seconds here.

I mean, I think you yourself have been a victim of the same forces that I'm talking about. You ran for office in New York, right? And I saw you get the mean, progressive, cannibal treatment from our own side. Yeah, I'm not saying I agreed with every one of your stances in that race, but I think it's honorable to try to run for office. And you were treated like a traitor, from our own side. I'm not saying I agree with every one of your stances in that race,

but I think it's honorable to try to run for office. And you're treated like a traitor, like an enemy. You had personal stuff thrown at you. I've suffered this exact same thing standing up for Israel, right? And not even Israel, but American Jews. So I think there's something fundamentally broken that we can't blame on bots. There's something we've decided to make ourselves the enemy. Let me bring in Claudia, if I can just briefly, just because there's a lot here and I want to make sure before we get beyond it, you get an opportunity to react. So a couple of things there. And of course, Claudia, anything you heard there that you want to react to? Absolutely.

Go ahead. But a couple of specific things. Do you agree that to some degree with what's been said that the apparent fracturing is being made to seem bigger than it is through manipulation, bots, astroturfing, whatever? Or do you think that it is all genuine discontent? And number two, to Brianna's earlier comment, do you think that anti-Semitism has become, I don't know if I would use the word growing, let's call it a notable problem within the progressive left? Well, I'm going to jump in as an organizer of over 30 years and as someone who continues

to do grassroots organizing and a lot of political education, I think it's fundamental to understand that the Democratic Party as an institution has historically buried progressive voices. It's not new. It has historically done that. And, you know, and this is something going back to the 1940s with Henry Wallace, Jesse Jackson in the 1980s. Bernie Sanders is a great example in 2016 and 2020. And Jamal Bowman's campaign is so revealing of just how unwilling the Democratic Party is, you know, willing to allow opposition, even the discussion of opposition within its own party. And I think it's important to highlight that because it's part of the fabric of the Democratic Party. It's not something that is currently happening right now. And I want to put it in that context

because I think it's important. The Democratic Party rather have someone like Biden, who obviously has showed us over and over again, does not have the backbone to go toe-to-toe with Trump or the far right, instead of allowing any progressive voices to rise as the representation of the party. And so the Democratic Party, in my sense, is where progressive movements go to die. That's the first piece. The second piece,

in terms of the question of anti-Semitism, I think it's important to also think about the relationship of the United States, which is a historic relationship with the state of Israel. And it's not something that started October 7th. That relationship has been there for over 76 years. The reality that Palestinians have experienced in terms of displacement, which is real, is factual, is there, has been happening for 76 years, I think it's very troubling and irresponsible to conflate anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism. Two very different things. There are Jews who are very much opposed to the occupation that is currently existing in Palestine.

And so I think for the sake of clarity and for the sake of historical context, those two things need to be put into the conversation. I think that we are witnessing the political crisis that has been brewing for a long time in this country. Everything that is happening right now is a reflection of that political crisis and also the crisis of legitimacy that the Democratic Party is actually facing. And it's not only an online problem, it's a real on the grassroots problem. I mean, when you see the majority of people in this country that are, that could engage in voting, not voting is not a matter of apathy. It's not a matter of people in this country that could engage in voting, not voting, is not a matter of apathy.

It's not a matter of people being apolitical. It's a matter of people feeling betrayed by the Democratic Party, broken promises. And so it's a structural issue. It's a systemic issue. It's a historical issue. And I think we need to look at it in that way if we're really trying to solve in any way, shape, or form the political crisis in which this country is in. And so, you know, there was a mention of social media, there was a mention, and honestly, like, there's a whole world outside of social media. There's so many people in the United States that don't even have access to social media. And those people are not even counted in debates or conversations about politics.

These are people like a lot of folks in the South who are low wage workers, who are homeless, who have to literally sleep in their cars to go in and work the next day, who are getting paid less than minimum wage. And so I think we need to kind of touch grass a little bit and understand that there's a huge divorce that has happened between the so-called lesser of two evils and the people that they're supposed to be representing. Brianna, what do you think about that? And a couple of specific things that Claudia said there,

the distinction that that some on the left make between anti Zionism and anti Semitism. Is that important to you or do you think that that is actually a problematic distinction? And then as far as bearing, whether it's Bernie or Jamal Bowman, did the Democratic Party bury them or is it a reflection of voter preferences at the end of the day? Okay, so let's go through this one at a time. I want to be really clear. I think that this game that a lot of progressives are saying like, oh, I'm not anti-Jewish, I'm just anti-Zionist. I think this is a game. I think this is nearly synonymous to what the Republicans do when they

have contempt for Black people and hide it with some language. I don't think this is true. I think anyone that believes that Jewish people are believing this should go to a temple sometime and just talk to your Jewish neighbors. I cannot begin to tell you how many progressives that are Jewish here in Massachusetts that I know that will never vote for another progressive candidate again, because they feel under attack every single day. They've been there for Black Lives Matter. They've been there for Me Too. They've been there for trans people, and they don't feel like progressives have their back, and they don't feel like Jewish people count. So I completely

reject that argument. There are ways to talk about Israel and to talk about the foreign policy there and to talk about the aggression that is out of proportion with the issue at hand in Gaza. But we are not interested in doing that. We are leaning into crazy town, talking about dismantling Israel. You had a viral tweet a few days ago with someone talking about building a UN coalition to go in and forcibly dismantle Israel. So I just don't think that has credibility. Claudia, I also want to come back to some points that you said that I agree with, where you're talking about poor people that just don't show up in social media and debates in the South. I'm from Mississippi. I saw this over and over and over again. This is where I just cannot close my eyes and pretend that progressivism does not have

a problem. I would really love an answer to this. What is the damn plan to do that? Because I've spent a decade in progressive politics trying to get data together, trying to get a data strategy together to just identify those people, to try to get a credible organization together, to go canvas, to try to raise money so we can get candidates and resources out there so they can actually win elections. The core problem with progressivism is we've got beautiful ideas and we have our finger on the pulse and we understand what isn't working in American politics. But there's almost no one that is serious about doing the work

and specifically the fundraising to go get this done. You can yell about AIPAC until you're blue in the face. But the reality is everything AIPAC is doing is legal. They're playing a game and progressives are just simply uninterested in playing that same game to get the policy that we want. So until we grow up, until we start cultivating a fundraising base, until we stop this fringe identity politics playbook that is just making us smaller and smaller and get really serious

about building coalitions and putting together the same tools that the Republicans and the Democrats and other organizations put together to win elections, we are going to lose. And the evidence that we are failing is the DSA is broke, Justice Democrats are broke, and we are losing right and left on the progressive side. Claudia, I want to go back to you. If we can, I just, okay, let's go to you. I want to go to Nomiki and get her thoughts, but go ahead, Claudia. I want to jump in on two things. I think it's important again because the conflation comes back

to Zionism is an economic, political, colonial project. And just as U.S. imperialism is that in the global South. And so it plays a particular role. It's not the same thing as Judaism. it's not the same thing as judaism it's not the same thing as jewish people and i do have jewish friends i have jewish friends that have historically stood against the extermination campaign of palestinian people

like there there are diplomatic solutions that do not think that do not necessitate bombing entire community. And so I wanted to say that because I think it's also necessary to say that. The second piece in terms of like, where do you find these people? Fundraising. Why don't we not play? I think we need to define progressive because there's a progressive portion of people in electoral politics. And electoral politics is a piece of the pie. It's not the whole pie. Nothing that has been advanced in this country in history has been advanced solely through electoral politics. There have been social movements that have been historically

annihilated by the state. Democrats and Republicans have done that job. And so I think it's important to say that as well, because when you say the left, you can not only subscribe that title to the left in electoral politics or to the progressives in electoral politics. There's a whole world outside of that. And I will bring it back to the majority of people who have the possibility of voting that do not vote and they do not engage in voting because they don't see their interest in either of the two parties, even with those that are progressive, who have come into the Democratic Party, whose voices have been shone, whose campaigns have been dismantled, and they have not delivered for the people they supposedly represent because the Democratic Party, those who are in leadership, do not allow for any of these things to move forward. There is an inherent agenda that is political and is economic that sustains the Democratic Party and sustains the Republican Party. And that is Wall Street money. That is corporate money.

That is super PAC money. And if that's part of the equation, there's no way that the people will ever win. And so when you share about, you know, playing the same game, you're asking people to go into a rigged game in politics where my, excuse me, where voices like mine are shone. Bernie Sanders was not

the most radical leftist. He was talking about things that could be gained under a capitalist system without minimally doing any type of tearing up to the capitalist system that sustains the democratic party. He was talking about universal care. That is possible in the capitalist society. UK has it and other countries have it as well. Access to free education. They have it. Why are people traveling to their native lands to get health care when they could get it here? If we were to stop financing war in many different fronts across the globe. And so I understand, you know, you were you mentioned you were part of the progressive movement. But I also come from a left progressive

movement since I was 13 years old that has very different policies. Don't forget that the best way to support The David Pakman Show is by becoming a member, which gives you access to the daily bonus show, the regular show with no commercials. which gives you access to The Daily Bonus Show, the regular show with no commercials. You also get access to our entire archive of every episode dating back a really long time and plenty of other awesome membership perks. Go to join Pacman dot com. Join Pacman dot com.

Hey, no, no, Mickey, I'm curious in this without putting words in anyone's mouth to kind of sum up, as I understood the last two things we heard, Claudia, for example, on the issue of Israel, Claudia laid out the view of seeing Israel as this colonial power related to the issues of the global south, whereas Brianna laid out that that sort of rhetoric she thinks is not pragmatically useful to the progressive movement. What's your sense? Is that sort of language around something like the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? Is it useful in the in the goal of electing progressives into positions of power or is it counterproductive?

Depends on where you're running and what you're doing. This I think we're making really broad statements about things. I live in New York. I happen to be in Europe right now seeking medical care, as Claudia mentioned. So I personally feel that deep in my heart. I was also on Bernie 2016 and 2020 and saw the vast differences in how those campaigns were structured, partially because of what Claudia said, the Democratic Party eats our movements alive. And in New York, specifically, we don't have really a Republican Party. Okay, there's some Republicans here and there. Obviously, you've got the crazies that, you know, run upstate, run Buffalo, straight out of Buffalo, met several of them. But for the most part, it's a democratic state in a democratic city. Okay. So you have the Democratic Party,

which was Cuomo's party for a long time. And you have the WFP, which I think nationally people think, oh, WFP, they're progressive. But historically, the WFP in New York State, if you've been around for longer than five years, you know how complicated that party was. It was born out of a right party in New York. And so suddenly they attached themselves to the DSA. And again, I'm a member of the DSA. I was very close to WFP. I was in inner circles. I was representing our revolution in New York. I was there at the table when these organizations were taken over by certain leaders. And they started this table called the progressive table.

And every single progressive group was at this table. And they were all asked to support the same candidates and support the same issues. And suddenly, who was spearheading everything? It was the WFP. So we no longer were talking about things like Medicare for all, Wall Street reform, accountability, taking on real estate, which is a big part of this. Suddenly it was about hashtag tax the rich. OK, New York taxes the rich more than anybody else. What about taxing real estate, which is displacing people? Suddenly it was no longer about bread and butter issues that people care about.

It was these divisive issues. And I think in the case of Jamal Bowman's race where, you know, this has been reported now, I think it was quiet for a while, but he had a massive in the last six months of his campaign. He went through several campaign managers. His team was pushed out and then WFP took it over. And so I ask, why was there a rally outside of his district, a GOTV rally? Why was it that, you know, AOC was collecting data and not Jamal Bowman? These are decisions that have a big impact on a race. And of course, AIPAC spent more money than possible on Jamal Bowman, symbolically trying to make AIPAC specifically, the progressive movement, specifically about this divide know, this divide

that you guys are having right now. But that is now what the progressive movement has become. You know, Justice Democrats had to lay off a ton of people because online fundraising is down, the algorithms have shifted. You know, Justice Democrats staff was taken over by WFP staff. I mean, these are real things to talk about. So when I ran two years ago, as Brianna mentioned, and everyone came after me, I ran in my district in a redistricting year, the only person that ran in my district. And DSA did not have nominations for the new districts in our district. Someone from outside of our district, who had no experience in left movement, who worked for Amex, was the D dsa darling it's somebody who actually lived in the

district worked in democratic progressive politics was part of dsa was shunned well maybe that's because the dsc political committee was now taken over by wfp and i'm saying this because this is how decisions are made a lot of people know me from reforming the democratic party being on that commission what we had to do on that commission for two years was dismantle how the Democratic Party made decisions. We had to go through finances. We had to figure out who the consultants were on the steering committees. Shocker, the committee that oversees all of the Democratic Party is full of consultants who are not elected by the Democratic Party, but making decisions on behalf of the entire DNC. And many of them are representing weapons manufacturers. Many of them are representing, you know, think tanks that are fairly conservative, bipartisan. So you have to look at these institutions in a very detailed way.

So when I was smeared online for being a traitor, it's like a traitor for what you guys didn't have an actual debate about who's the DSA candidate. There are people from outside of our district coming in and influencing it. And I'm just one example of many. So in the case of Joe Bowman, yes, APEC threw a crap ton of money at that district, but also internally their campaign was overtaken and in dysfunction. And he what, five five thousand votes divided. So all of that money, I believe that those five thousand votes could have been overcome had there been actual detailed structural organizing in that district. And I feel really sad to see that because we've seen that with plenty of other candidates. Cori Bush has been pretty much abandoned, my dear friend, and she's like a real deal fighter. And you know what, they're waiting now for the last month to help out her campaign. August is her election, early August. So we want to have progressive institutions.

We have to understand how institutions work. We have to understand how people co-opt institutions. We have to understand how money flows. You know, you can't let's talk about that line says something. Yeah. Brianna, I mean, the Bowman case is an interesting one as a lens through which we can think about some of these things. What resonates more with you? Is it the Apex stuff? Because as far as I know, APEC has also funded opponents to some other squad members but have failed, arguably because they were maybe better candidates than Bowman. Is it about Bowman as a candidate? Is it about some other thing? Is it the organizing, as Nomiki points out? What do you make of the Bowman case? So I'm going to answer your question, but I just want to pause respectfully

for a moment and say I asked Claudia and Nomiki a very direct question. And that question to repeat was, where are we getting the money from? And why can't we build a coalition? Yeah, I did not get an answer to either of those. Claudia, coming back to your answer a minute ago, respectfully, you talked very vaguely about past social justice movements. You know, I come from Mississippi. We had the very famous murders in the civil rights era, just like very near my house, where Mississippi Sheriff took out a service revolver

and executed three people trying to register Black people to vote. Two of those people were Jewish. You're talking about building movements of a lot of different people as an answer for the money. But the truth is the progressive coalition is getting smaller and smaller and smaller. And I know you can't see it, but there are a lot of Jews in this country that are never going, we have so much work to do to regain Jewish trust. And I don't know if it's even possible. I think there are a lot of other groups out there that we are losing trust with because they don't think we have their back. They feel like they are cannibalized and attacked every single time. They have a very slight difference of opinion. And I think that without money, without people, without data, without a strategy, I don't see how we succeed. David, coming back to your question there, I want to answer it very directly. Bowman was a very flawed candidate, and it's very easy to blame APAC, but Bowman did not take care of stuff at home. If you go read the quotes of people that were

talking about why they didn't support him, it was things like school teachers in the district that talked about how they would see Latimer every few weeks. And they'd only seen Bowman like one or two times over the entire time he had served as their congressman. So I think that AIPAC, it's very, very easy to blame AIPAC. But the reality is Bowman was down before before the race and he finished down after the race. AIPAC just basically made sure there was not a change there. We cannot like AIPAC. We cannot like money in politics. I agree with that.

I work with Cenk all the time. We agree the core problem with American politics is this corruptive influence of money. But to change the policy on that, we've got to change the game. That means fundraising. It means building candidates. It means data infrastructure. We've had a decade to get serious about all of those things. Now, Miki, I've talked to you about this in private more times than I can count the desperate need to do this work. And there's just no one on the progressive side that's serious about this. Until we get serious, we are going to continue losing.

Can I counter that just for a second? Sure. And then I want to go back to Claudia if we can. Yeah. That's why I brought up the progressive table. Progressive table happened. At first you thought, oh, this is a great idea. You're bringing the families together. You're all going to have this. But there was no debate. Lists, you know, lists are very valuable in campaigns. People start to take over lists simultaneously. You know, I think people in this space, I have really good friends who did this for Bernie. They said that the power of email, the power of texting has been going down and has for campaigns all over the country. And the algorithms because people are annoyed. So it's not just about data and it's not just about fundraising. You don't have, the vehicles aren't operating the same way they used to. This is getting very technical, but this is the reality

of how this stuff works. I run Matriarch, as you know, Brianna. Matriarch is training these candidates. We're working with all these races across the country and these are working people. And everyone's trying to crowdsource. The difference between what we were able to fundraise two years ago and what we are now, same data infrastructure is 80 percent down across the board. It's why raising money, add to it these divisions, add to it this online conflict, add to it, you know, and this is separate from the Democratic Party. We're just talking about progressive organizations across the board. So it's it's it's nice to say we have to fundraise. We do have those vehicles to do so. It's just they're not operating the same way anymore. And that is where I point at the right wing and the tech that the right wing tech overlords who have completely made obliterated progressives ability to to do that kind of grassroots work. I mean, look at how Twitter

functions now. I mean, this is not the same world we were living in 2016 at all. And, you know, it's not that people haven't tried. They have. And where they've been successful, they've been overtaken. You know, Justice Democrats, as you know very well, operated in its own way a few years ago, changed leadership. People were pushed out. Bernie Sanders campaign in 2016 was very different than Bernie Sanders 2020. You know, the people who won you Iowa and Michigan and all these states were pushed out or sidelined. And there was a campaign manager who lovely guy had no experience. Speaker 1 If you value what we do at The David Pakman Show, remember to support us on Patreon.

Go to Patreon dot com slash David Pakman show where you can get access to behind the scenes videos, the Daily Bonus show, the commercial free daily show. You can support the show for as little as two dollars a month. Check it out at Patreon dot com slash David Pakman show. So a couple of things, a couple of things, Claudia, on Bowman. I mean, we don't there's other things I want to ask you about and get your perspective on. Do you think to some degree Bowman was a flawed candidate or do you not buy that at all? I mean, I'm not a fan of Bowman. I'm not like I'm not. And so I'm not going to stay here and defend Bowman and what he didn't do. Because again, I'm talking about the which I think is important because we can't talk about anything in the world if we don't talk

about money and how to make things happen. I'm not being vague. Whoever finances a campaign has influence in the politics that are being shaped. That is real. And if we continue to say that only billionaires and super PACs, people with money, are the ones that are influencing politics, they're not going to influence politics for the interest of the majority of people who don't have money. It is not true. And so we need to get really real about what money is it that is coming into politics. With Bowman's race, it was over $15 million that were raised. And that didn't only come from AIPAC.

They came also from Republican donors. Like, if we don't see the farce of what this democracy is, I don't know, like Republicans financing a primary for Democrats? That is ludicrous. And so I get what you're saying, Nomiki, in terms of being outed as a, you know, enemy, as a traitor, for putting the truth out.

I mean, Julian Assange just came out of prison for putting out the truth of warmongering. And so I think, again, if we don't learn from history and we don't learn from context, if we don't learn about what has happened historically in any institution, we will lack reality. And I understand in terms of coalition building as well, because coalition building, again, doesn't only happen in electropolitics. It's happening in politics generally. And there's a very, very key aspect of coalition building, and that's principle.

That's unified basis of principle and basis of alignment. And I think if we can agree that there is a genocide happening, that people are being exterminated, that the United States government is financing that with taxpayer money, we could probably engage in a conversation. But I think the essence of our perspectives are very different. And so I see you. I see you shaking your head, Brianna, at the idea that I guess I think the wording was from Claudia all agreeing about a genocide happening. And you shook your head. I'm guessing you don't agree with that. I, you know, I know this is probably going to be an unpopular opinion. I think it's conventional war. I don't think it's a genocide.

I think there's a reason these numbers keep getting revised down. I think there's a reason that the number of women and children killed was shot so far up and now this has been retracted. Over and over, there's this narrative that's out there, Al-Shifa Hospital being a great example that people are out there making wild claims, and then you look into it after the fact and it's not true. But I'm willing to put all of that aside, because I'm not a fan of Netanyahu. I think this war is disproportionate. I don't think it's helping Israeli security. And ultimately, my goal is not to help Israel, it's to help the United States. I know what you can't see is that the Jews that have been the backbone of the progressive movement, the Jews that have been there for Me Too and Black Lives Matter and wrote big checks and helped gay marriage get funded

and have been there every step of the way, they are furious and they are hurt. And the way you're talking about Bowman is like AIPAC came in and spent a bunch of money and then stole democracy. And I need to tell you, that is not true. I was in New York last weekend. And the reality is Bowman said many things, including denying the rapes of October 7th, that I found disgusting and a lot of Jewish people found disgusting. And it was people power showing up to hold him accountable and get out there and mobilize the vote and win. And the way you're talking about this makes it sound like Jews don't count. And it's just not true. If we are serious about building people power,

if your theory that we don't need money and we need people is true- That's not my theory. That's not my theory. We've got to go rebuild that trust with Jewish people. We've got to revisit the bread and butter politics with women. We've got to revisit and rebuild the coalition

from the ground up because it is disintegrating from this cannibalism and this sanctimony. Brianna, you're literally in your argument. You are affirming that the big checks come from the Jewish community. That's the first thing. That's what you've been saying. And I want to clarify this.

I'm not saying that movements don't need funding. What I am saying is that the funding determines the politics. And that is very important. Let me just jump in because I think I misunderstood something. I just want to make, before we get past it, you said, Claudia, that Brianna said big checks come from the Jewish community. Did you say or imply that? I didn't. I just didn't hear that. And if I missed it, I certainly did not. I said people from the Jewish community got organized and went out there to work that race. And I was part of that.

No, no, no. Before that, before that, before that, before that, there was a statement and you can go back to the tape and verify it. There was a statement that was made in terms of the big checks and how the Jewish community necessarily feels betrayed. Jewish people are a big part of the progressive movement. They always have been. And all I have to say is that I know that they have been Jewish people, like many other people, have been part of many movements, not only here in the United States, but all across the globe, wherever they are, they are those progressive, conscious, like many other different identities, nationalities have been there. And what I am trying to say, and what I am saying, and I'm going to go back to this question of essence,

there's a difference in your perspective and mine. We have different politics. And so while I understand the point in terms of many Jewish people feeling a sense of betrayal, that does not in any way erase the fact that there are so many other people that feel betrayed as well. You talked about here in the United States and the Black Lives Matter movement, but the Black Lives Matter movement didn't solve the issue of police brutality. It hasn't solved it. In fact, the Democratic Party pumped in more money into policing last year than they did before.

And the historic numbers of police brutality increased in 2023 under Biden. And so, again, I don't deny the involvement, the engagement of Jewish people. I mean, there's Jewish Voices for Peace. There's many different organizations at the ground doing real work in relationship to what's happening in the world, not solely around Palestine. And that is valid. However, to say that somehow this would economically also impact the support and the growing of a movement, that's kind of like, it makes me feel a certain type of way. Yes, fundraising is important, but where it's coming from is important. I don't think AIPAC, my honest opinion, I don't think AIPAC is necessarily the representation of the Jewish community.

I don't believe that. Okay, there's a lot there. So, Brianna, do you think Jewish Voices for Peace is the representation of the Jewish community? Because that's another group Claudia mentioned. I'm not Jewish. I can't say for sure. What I can say is when I go visit, when I go to Temple or talk to my Jewish friends that are progressive, by the way, right here in Massachusetts, we have the eighth highest number of Jews. I can say they don't feel that that really represents them. And

I think if you look at the leadership, it's not a lot of Jewish people there. So I don't- I mean, listen, I was not going to interject anything of mine here, but just because this is seems relevant. I'll mention as a Jewish progressive myself, I don't feel represented by Jewish voices for peace nor by a pack. Yeah. And I'll just I'll tell you a couple anecdotes in the last few years that have made me as someone who has been part of this movement for a long time, feel like, whoa, do they want me in this movement? Number one was around the time of the women's march. And the some some of the statements that came out about Jewish women aren't intersectional or oppressed enough to be on the leadership of women's march. As a Jewish progressive myself, I thought, whoa, hold on a second. So do they even want do they want my help? I don't know,

because this is a group that this is a movement I've been supporting for a long time. And I recently went to a pride parade. I was Pride Month as a straight ally myself. And there was a float in the parade I went to that was a queers for Palestine, which is fine. And they had these puppets that were the stereotypical Jewish long nose money grubbing thing. And I said, holy crap, I can't think of a bigger straight ally for the LGBTQ community. I've been doing it 18 years on this show. It's it's making me feel pushed out and I don't know that they want me. So maybe to talk a little bit about this identity thing that Brianna is bringing up, does anyone

on the panel worry that there is a way Brianna called it a reduction in size of who gets to be in the progressive movement? Some call it litmus test. Some call it use of identity politics. Is anybody on the panel concerned about that other than Brianna? I mean, I would some of its litmus test and some of it's just targets. of identity politics. Is anybody on the panel concerned about that other than Brianna? I mean, I wouldn't even some of its litmus test and some of its just targets. You know, if someone doesn't fall in line with a specific thing that a leader or group says, you're you're on the enemy's list without any real understanding of what might be happening behind the scenes.

I mean, this has happened with countless people who've been erased, canceled, whatever, because they made one comment or did this or it was a misinterpretation. And then there's actualist test. But what I'm concerned, you know, this dynamic that we're talking about right now is exactly what the strategy is to take two very, you know, unique arguments. I'm not saying that it's radical because there's perspectives all over the place on these issues. My partner's Jewish. We've had these conversations, very tense conversations over the last nine, 10 months about this. Incredibly tense conversations, frankly. And I think what I would say, and David, what you just illustrated as an example of that is, on one side, the Jewish community is not this blanket

community. And to even think that all Jews think the same way and feel the same way is reductionist. And that's exactly what they're trying to set up. On the other side, I also think I've seen a lot of progressives online and I'm not sure all of it's real, to be honest, or sometimes people fall in and don't have an education of, of the tropes of stuff that is actually anti-Semitic. But again, it doesn't mean every single Palestinian activist has the same beliefs. Of course, there are people out there

who might be right wing. Listen, Roger Stone is famous for this kind of stuff, going to protest and putting things out there. And then what happens is it's like an influence campaign. There's someone who may not be as educated, younger, falls for it, doesn't know that that's anti-Semitic, doesn't know the history, says the wrong word. And then people who just straight up, you know, are anti-Semitic for sure, but maybe aren't on the left. It's complicated is what I'm saying, is we can't just put everybody in one big, you know, one spot and the other spot and be reductionist about this. You know, I have learned so much in the last nine months from my partner and dear friends about being a progressive Jew and what it means.

And also the history of even the more progressive Jewish organizations and what their backgrounds are historically. I mean, Cloudy, you brought this up. Movements have complicated histories. I've also learned about how foreign influence campaigns are absolutely weaponizing this debate right now. And now they want it to be not complicated. They want it to be you're either this or you're this because it's easy to move people that way.

But this is why this conversation is, I think, really helpful and uncomfortable at times. You're getting into the weeds, David. And, you know, I think that's powerful. But like, we as progressives also have a responsibility, pro-Palestine progressives have a responsibility to understand the history of anti-Semitism, just as, you know, I think many Jewish activists have to have an understanding of the oppression that other communities have faced and how they've always been pitted against each other. And, you know, that's gone on for, at this point, 70 years. Claudia, if you had to assess, or go ahead, sorry, go ahead. No, I was going to say that I agree with a lot of what Nomiki just mentioned in terms of like

identity politics. I'm not a fan of identity politics. I feel like in so many different ways, identity politics are a construction of academia, which is basically also connected to many other types of funding. And it has sipped into movement to categorize and fragment. So that's my understanding of it. However, I say that, and I also say that it is important to center and to be able to know, as you mentioned, the histories of historically marginalized communities and find a certain level of commonality as we potentially can to be able to like have a certain level of compassion like in terms of the anti-semitic reality the reality of many jewish people and david you know you could speak to it more than anyone else here um there is huge amounts of suffering through generations. But we cannot deny the suffering of the Palestinian people either. And so we need to have that conversation. And it's uncomfortable. We need

to have a conversation about the role of the United States, not only in Palestine, but also in Africa, also in Asia, also in Latin America. I'm Caribbean. The United States has backed many different occupations in countries from where I come from. our money, taxpayers' money, that could be invested here to deal with the issues of healthcare, to deal with the issues of housing, to deal with the multi-levels of crises that we experience, and how those are being divested into doing all sorts of things across the globe. We need to have a sense of history. And that is all I'm saying. I think identity politics historically, well, at least for the last 10 years, there's a lot of people that don't find their space in movement. There's a lot of people that feel they are canceled, they're shut out, not only on the identity of gender or the identity of race, but also the identity of age, where some people may feel that older folks have nothing to bring into the table because this is the new generation. And all that does is weaken movement. And so we need to find ways of strengthening movements. But we also need to be able to touch grass and we also need to be able to have a sense of history. Follow us on social media, interact with the David Pakman Show

community, see exclusive content, see when we're taking calls live and stay up to date on other big show announcements. We post daily. Find us on Reddit, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, Discord and tick tock. As we start entering the last chapter of the conversation, I would love to go. Maybe we'll go left to right as I see the three of you. Brianna, feel free to react to anything that's just been said that you haven't yet been able to react to. But also in thinking about the last element of this, what do you think the progressive movement should absolutely not do over the next three to five years if the goal is to actually get some wins and gain some power?

So that's such a good question. You know, Claudia, I hope at some point we can go out and get some coffee or something. I don't want this. I feel like I'm disagreeing with you more than I want to today. So I apologize about that in advance. But it kind of leads into David's questions. I want to propose a counter perspective to what you just said. Yeah, you're talking about the United States foreign policy. And, you know, talking out like this is something that progressives need to really get involved with and make it a core value, right? I really disagree with this. You know, I think that, you know, Nomiki was talking about this foreign interference that has really crept in and made it difficult for us to get our message out with bots, something I agree with.

And I think part of this is this anti-Western, anti-American bias has unfortunately seeped in and come to be a core part of the progressive movement. And I was 100% against the Iraq war. That was how I got my start in American politics, in progressive politics. But at the same time, I don't think progressives have ever given Obama credit for, you know, the fight against ISIS and the good things we did with that. I think that, you know, when you're seeing this operations who stop Houthis from attacking union workers on shipping vessels and just make sure our global supply chain is operating normally, I don't think that we see, I think progressives are on to not do in the next five years? This is my core message. Progressives have a much, much, much harder job than Republicans or Democrats do, because we want really big structural change. We want things like healthcare reform. We want real structural reform to racism in this country. And the only way we can do that is by getting this really broad buy-in from the right and the left and normal people, normal working class people. And I think a really core component of that is we've got to exile this anti-American, anti-West sentiment here.

I think America is a really fantastic country. I'm proud to live here. I'm proud of my friends that serve in the armed forces. And I think when we talk about America, like it's this colonialist evil empire, I think we are driving away the normal people that we fundamentally need to bring into our fold. So we can have a criticism of American foreign policy, and I will always help lead that discussion. But I'm tired of talking about our own country like it's the enemy. It's not. America is one of the very best countries in the world, and we should be proud of it. Claudia, let me go to you next, and then we'll go to Nomiki. What do you think that the progressive movement needs to avoid

over the next three to five years if the goal is to get some wins? Can I also react? Yeah. OK. I don't I don't I don't think that saying American is also monolithic. I don't think it's like all Americans are the same. There are very, very huge differences. And there is actually a divide and divide between those who own it all and those who don't have anything. And so I think that that's important to be mentioned because being anti-war or being anti-imperialist for that matter, doesn't mean that you are anti-American. Actually, there is a history, a long history of Americans who love America and who loved and written amazing things who are anti-imperialist. So I just want to share that. And so I would really welcome a coffee, especially since I love coffee with you at any point.

So if I find myself in Massachusetts, I will definitely make sure to look out for you because I think there is a lot of confusion. Again, Americans come in many different sizes, in many different colors, and with many different realities and experiences, even of migration, even of those who have centuries and generations of being here, who are designated to be in the most dire and terrible condition. In terms of what we shouldn't do, I want to go back to how I started. I said, I come into the space as an organizer from the grassroots. I am not part of a Democratic Party. I am part of a left that is a traditional left in this country.

And I think in terms of what we should not do, there's many things that we shouldn't do. But I could humbly share what I think we should do. I think that there is a dire need to have more conversations like this at all levels. At all levels. I think that there is a huge necessity to be able to take over the question of education in our community, to be able to politicize and actually make meaning of the moment in which we're in. There's a lot of people that are asking many questions that neither the Democrats or the Republicans have actual answers to. A lot of people left the debate with a sense of despair, a sense of doom, because it shows,

again, just how deep the political crisis and the crisis of legitimacy of the ruling class is in this country. And so there is a need to be able to engage in educational conversations where we are able to shape some sort of analysis that is collected. And the other aspect of it, I think that we need to be able to invest a lot of time outside of, you know, outside of our comfort spaces. So electropolitics is one piece, but there's no way politics can actually be moved without social movements, people that are outside of these parties, people that are actually doing the work, people that are actually mobilizing, that are educating, that are agitating. There's time and space that needs to be invested in that space, because for as long as we think that the ones that should be having some sort of influence are those who have money. This country is going to continue to go backwards and more towards the right.

No, Mickey, your thoughts. I'll give you the same prompt. What what should progressives avoid doing in order to get some wins? Maybe spend a little less time online. Less time on X. Right. Yes. I mean, really, it's it's it's not that, you know, on one hand, yes, the majority of working people out there who we want to bring into our movement, that were probably part of our movement a few years ago, you know, multi generational, multi racial, multi economic is working people were part was the Bernie Sanders campaign of 2016. We remember it. It was historic. And we wanted it to grow. And it should have grown. But simultaneously,

we do have this online infrastructure that is very influential. It's very noisy. And it does steer things. It is not everybody. It is nowhere near everybody. It's nowhere near a small portion. But it does steer things. It steers conversation. It steers think pieces. It steers the newspapers. It steers, you know, how money is being poured into politics. Great examples of Jamal Bowman race. I mean, a lot of these narratives, these fights are being established in this very unequal algorithmic universe that we're talking about. It's not everything, but it is a lot. So maybe not take everything you see online at face value. There's a lot of operations that go behind that. As someone who's worked on campaigns, yeah, influencers out there, you have surrogates,

you have group chats, and there's a million other things. So that's just one aspect of it. I think what I find really valuable about this conversation is that we've talked about how infrastructure works in different organizations. We've talked about how fundraising works. We've talked about how electoral politics works, talked about history, and we've talked about touching the grass. And I think there's a perfect formula for understanding and moving forward as progressive individuals to work critically and think critically. And you kind of need to have a little bit of all of that, of a deeper understanding of your history, the methods that have hurt our progressive movements in the past and killed them, and the methods they're using moving forward. I think it's important for us to go out there and do the work organizing.

No offense, not you, David. I've known you for years, but there's a whole lot of podcasters out there who've never stepped one foot on any campaign, whether it's an issue-based campaign of movement organizing or actual electoral politics. And yet they're the end-all be-all deciders of what's right and wrong.

That's just not, you know, you need to do the work. And it doesn't mean that if you don't have time to do the work, you can't be part of the movement. Everybody's just not, you know, you need to do the work. And it doesn't mean that if you don't have time to do the work, you can't be part of the movement. Everybody has a role. But also understanding how these movements operate and how to communicate with voters. I mean, one thing I think all of us have discussed here is there are people out there who feel totally left out of a community whose needs and concerns are not being addressed, whose pain is not being felt, whether you agree with it or not,

that we need to understand. And we learn to understand by having conversations. We learn to understand by going out there and doing the work in community and volunteering. You know, showing up and protesting is one thing, and that's great, showing up on the streets. But doing the deep organizing is where, it's like your DNA shifts as a movement worker.

Suddenly you go on, you see the chatter and you're like, this is so meaningless compared to the elderly woman that I met with Olga in Puerto Rico, whose house, whose roof was ripped off at 78 in Hurricane Maria still isn't there from Hurricane Fiona and now is being priced out of her community. Do you think she cares about what's happening with Breonna Joy Gray and Glenn Greenwald online? No. She cares about whether or not she's going to be able to get the FEMA money under Joe Biden, whether or not she's going to be able to find new housing, given the fact that properties have gone up so much on the island. And this is happening in communities across the country. This is our movement. And we need to get down on the country. These are our, this is our movement.

And we need to get down on the ground and real with what the implications are of these conversations we're having in this theoretical like web space. It has real consequences. And, you know, this presidential election, as uncomfortable as it is, there are real consequences if you do stand, if you don't do anything. We may not like it. That's for sure.

That's for sure. Listen, we are at the end of our time. Brianna, Claudia, Nomiki, so great to see you and really appreciate your time and your insights today. Thanks for having us. Thank you for having us, David.