The David Pakman Show - 8/2/24: Trump attacks on Kamala backfire, Mike Pillow returns

Episode Date: August 2, 2024

-- On the Show: -- A debate on supposed 2020 voter fraud with MyPillow CEO Mike Lindell and election fraud expert Ken Block -- Video is unearthed of JD Vance saying that people without children are “sociopathic,” “psychotic,” and “deranged” -- Trump has a meltdown on Truth Social, complaining about how Kamala Harris has shaken up the race -- Trump attacks Jewish people for not supporting him enough -- On the Bonus Show: US/Russia prisoner swap, Olympics / Last Supper controversy, and much more... ⚠️ Try Ground News and get 40% OFF the Vantage plan at https://ground.news/pakman 💪 Alpha Progression: Get 20% OFF your 1st year or month at https://alphaprogression.com/pakman 🔊 Babbel language learning: Get up to 60% OFF at https://babbel.com/pakman -- Become a Member: https://www.davidpakman.com/membership -- Become a Patron: https://www.patreon.com/davidpakmanshow -- TDPS Subreddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/thedavidpakmanshow -- Pakman Discord: https://www.davidpakman.com/discord -- David on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/davidpakmanshow -- Leave a Voicemail: (219)-2DAVIDP

. when it rains it pours and it's just getting worse and worse for Donald Trump's vice presidential running mate JD Vance I told you yesterday how in the previous 10 days he lost nine points of favorability with the American public effectively losing one point of favorability with the American public, effectively losing one point of favorability every single day. And we have more unearthed videos. These aren't leaks. These are videos that are public, but they got very little attention when he did a lot

of these interviews. And they are very, very bad. Once again, revitalizing the question, can this guy survive? Can he possibly stay on as Donald Trump's vice presidential running mate? In this first video, J.D. Vance doubling down on the people without kids thing says that people without children are sociopathic, psychotic and also deranged. I don't think this will bring you any new vote. There's just these basic cadences of life that I think are really powerful and really, really valuable when you have kids in your life. And the fact that so many people, especially in America's leadership class, just don't have that in their lives.

I worry that it makes people more sociopathic and ultimately our whole country a little bit less mentally stable. And of course, you talk about going on Twitter. Final point I'll make is you go on Twitter and almost always the people who are most deranged and most psychotic are people who don't have kids at home. So this is also crazy. Now, I can tell you as a dad that sometimes I think being a dad is what's making me lose my mind, not the opposite. But he's making the opposite argument here. But from a political strategy standpoint, like whatever your opinion is about his particular comments, who do you attract by attacking those without children, especially since at

the end of the day, even if you don't have children, you're someone's kid. And thanks to someone's decision, implicit or explicit, to have a kid, you exist. So it's just a very, very strange approach. And, you know, when every time these videos come out, there will be someone from the Trump campaign or a spokesperson for J.D. Vance or whatever, who will say, oh, you know, there's missing context there and the comments are being distorted in some material way. You know, check out the entire interviews if you can sit through these things. Sometimes they're 15, 15 minutes. Sometimes they're much longer. It doesn't seem to me like there's any missing context at all. Now, here's

another one in which J.D. Vance says that he and Trump will go to war against the childless. Again, who is going to hear this and say, I wasn't voting for J.D. Vance and Trump. But after hearing this, now I am really hard to imagine. And we'll listen to a little more of this just to give you the context that some claim is missing. The best way to invest in it is to ensure the next generation actually exists. So I think sending those signals via policy, but the cultural messaging of politicians is important. I also think, just to be a little stark about this, I think we have to go to war against the anti-child ideology that exists in our country. effort by millennial feminist writers to talk about why having kids was not a good thing, why they were glad they didn't have kids, and even encouraging people who had had children to talk about why they regretted having children, which of course is like- On Mother's Day, look.

Yeah, on Mother's Day, which is like psychologically deranged to ask mothers on Mother's Day to talk about why they regretted having children. And what it made me realize is that so much of what drives elite culture is mediocre millennial journalists who haven't gotten out of their career what they thought they would. Which, by the way, what's funny is when he talks about mediocre millennial journalists as a millennial himself, the fabricated backstory of J.D. Vance through his writings and interviews, I would argue, is actually an example of what he's claiming to denounce. Right. And the thing is, everybody can be an exceptional mother and father. Not everybody can be an exceptional journalist at The New York Times.

That's true. And not enough people have accepted that if they put their entire life's meaning into their credential, into where they went to school, into what kind of job they have, which is mostly what he did, actually, if you put all of your life's meaning into that, you're going to be the sort of person who asks women to talk about how they regret having children. You're going to be a sad, lonely, pathetic person, and you're going to know it internally. So you're going to project it onto people who have actually built something more meaningful with their lives. I think we have to go to war against that ideology and the people behind it, because we need to say to the

people in my hometown, my, you know, I've seen this with, just to be honest with, with my sister, I love my, my, my sister is just the best person. I love her to death. And sometimes, you know, I've seen this with, just to be honest with my sister. I love my, my sister is just the best person. I love her to death. And sometimes, you know, she'll say things to me like, you know, I just, maybe I should have delayed having kids. Maybe I should have went to school. Maybe I should have did this or that. It's like, Lindsay, you've been a great mom.

Your children are happy. They're healthy. Don't aspire to anything else, Lindsay. You've taken good care of them. You've shown me. I mean, you know, she was my older sister. She took care of me a lot in a very chaotic home. People like my sister should not feel like the cultural messaging is your life is inadequate.

This is bonkers stuff. And one of my immediate reactions when Trump chose Vance and Vance was not an unknown to me. Right. I mean, I followed his political career, read his book, saw how his public persona over the last four years was a total 180 from the book, seemingly for naked and craven political aspirations. Did he this guy was a known entity. My immediate reaction, aside from kind of low energy and lack of charisma, was I can't think of any way in which Vance expands the electorate for Trump. Just didn't seem to be any way Republican Tim Miller, who was on the show earlier this

week, agreed with me. He doesn't see any way that Vance expands the voting base for Trump. And now, especially with all these comments about the childless and having less political power and being deranged and psychopathic and sociopathic. I think this is now doing material net harm to their voting base. And the question I have for you is, does J.D. Vance survive this? Let me know info at David Pakman dot com. Donald Trump had what appeared to be a very serious mental breakdown on Truth Social yesterday

surrounding the time during which he was heading towards after and before the completely abortive attempt at an interview at the NABJ, where he said Kamala used to be Indian, but now she became black. Central. Yeah. So he took to truth central and had some of the following choice words getting ready to land in Chicago, unlike crazy Kamala. They told me and crazy Kamala Harris that you could not do this event with Zoom. It is not allowed or acceptable.

She declined. And I'm getting ready to land in Chicago in order to be there. Now I am told she is doing the event on Zoom. What's going on here? Crazy Kamala disrespectfully refused to attend the NABJ conference, but I'm on the way to meet with them now in Chicago because of which she'll probably end up doing. She has no choice. But remember, it is only for that reason. Then engaging caps lock. Russia never invaded Ukraine under Trump. Iran never invaded Israel under Trump. Nobody invaded anybody under Trump. My recollection of world history is a little different.

China never even thought of invading Taiwan under Trump. Biggest ever embarrassment in Afghanistan would have never happened under Trump. There was no inflation under Trump. That's a lie. What a different would have never happened under Trump. There was no inflation under Trump. That's a lie. What a different world it would be under Trump. That's true. Trump continuing focusing on Catholics. A large group of Catholics is launching a major political campaign against crazy Kamala

Harris. Finally, Catholics are literally being persecuted by this whack job. Just ask the Knights of Columbus. They say that she is the most anti-Catholic person ever to run for high office in the literally being persecuted by this whack job. Just ask the Knights of Columbus. They say that she is the most anti-Catholic person ever to run for high office in the U.S. This respected group wants all Catholics to vote against Kamala. And they are 100 percent correct.

P.S. Jewish people are treated even worse. If that's possible, they are dropping Kamala and the Democrats like flies. And it's about time. And finally, crazy Kamala Harris voted the worst vice president in American history. That's a lie. Needed a concert to bring people into the Atlanta arena. And they started leaving five minutes into her speech. I don't need concerts or entertainers.

I just have to make America great again. Let me give you three words here to describe all of this. Terrified. Furious and triggered, terrified, furious and triggered. These are not normal outbursts. This is not traditional healthy behavior for a nearly 80 year old man. And I want to delve into the Jewish part that he mentions. Jews are leaving Democrats in droves. Let's talk about that next. Donald Trump appeared on the Sid and Friends radio show, Sid and Friends in the Morning,

and he just launched another one of these wild attacks on Jews. Jews need their heads examined. So on and so forth. On Truth Social, he also said that Jewish voters are leaving Democrats. I'm going to address that in a moment. But let's listen to what Trump had. Here's Trump's message to Jewish Americans. A Jewish person that voted for her or him or whoever it's going to be, I assume it's

going to be her. Anybody that did that is should have their head examined. If you love Israel or if you're Jewish, because a lot of Jewish people do not like Israel and they happen to be in New York. You know that. Yes. But if you are Jewish, regardless of Israel, if you're Jewish, if you vote for a Democrat, you're a fool, an absolute fool.

They have seventy seven or eight. What was it? Eighty five percent of Jews, I guess, are fools, according to Trump. Not a way. You know, J.D. Vance isn't winning you any votes and saying this isn't winning you any votes. I've let Jewish people down since Obama at a levels that nobody could believe possible. You know, 15 years ago, the strongest lobby in all of Washington was Israel.

It was by far the strongest. Nobody would say anything bad about Israel. Today, it's like nobody says anything good except Republicans, by the way. Nobody says anything good about it. So it's a hell of a change. I assume, you know, exactly what I'm saying. Oh, I know. Fifteen years ago, you could only have bad things.

No. This, according to Trump, means that just about every Jewish American is a fool, I guess, other than his son in law, Jared Kushner, and his own daughter, Ivanka Trump, who converted to Judaism, that we must all be foolish because alongside black Americans, Jewish Americans are the most left wing voting bloc in the country, period, bar none. And what is important to consider is that Trump is expressing his desires when he says Jews are abandoning Democrats, as he did on Truth Social. Jews are not abandoning Democrats. It's just not happening. There's no evidence. There's no evidence that it's happening. Are there some Jewish Republicans? Yes. On a percentage basis,

is it a very small number? Yes, it's very small. And this is what happens when Trump is just completely out of ideas as to how to run out, run against Kamala Harris. And next week, we'll talk about the more general backfire of the Republican approach against Kamala right now. They tried. She's a DEI hire. He tried. She used to be Indian, but she became black. They tried. Her laugh is a cackle. They tried all of these different things. They're out of ideas. And so what do they go back to? The exact same stuff Trump was trying to use against Biden. Things like Democrat Jews are fools if they vote for Democrats. He said that when it came to Biden. And now he's saying it when it comes to Kamala Harris.

The best advice I've heard for how Trump should be running this campaign came from Tim Miller earlier this week, who said none of this stuff is working. You should just run against her the way successful Republicans run against Democrats. Whether it's true or not, the right approach is to say this is someone who will raise your taxes. This is someone who will enact stifling regulations. The usual package, right? Forget about adjudicating whether it's true or not. And I believe 99 percent of it is not true. That seems like a much more effective approach than this insanity where they are just dissuading voters at every turn. Let me know what you think. Hit that subscribe button. If you're watching on

YouTube, help us get to two point five million subscribers and we will take the quickest of breaks and then be back with something very special for you here. Right now, we are seeing candidates do whatever it takes to win your vote and how the media chooses to cover certain stories, if at all, can completely shape your perspective of those candidates. But our sponsor, Ground News, is an awesome resource at a time like this with their vantage plan. I get access to what's called their blind spot feed that shows me stories that can be

easily missed. For instance, I'm looking here at Ground News's summary about Trump distancing himself from Project 2025 amid its rising controversy, something we've been talking about. Ground News provides a great summary of the situation based on over 100 articles that Ground News found reporting on it. And Ground News shows me that almost no conservative news outlets are covering the story. Not a surprise. Ground News shows me that almost no conservative news outlets are covering the story. Not a surprise. Ground News shows us that the right wing outlets only report on how Trump is denying involvement

with the project, while the center and left outlets are actually giving context on Trump's connections to the movement of Project 2025. Every story comes with this visual breakdown of the political biases and ownership of the reporting news outlets, which is really important to know as well. Go to ground dot news slash Pacman or scan my QR code for 40 percent off the same unlimited access vantage plan that I use. It is great to welcome to the program today, Ken Block, owner of Simpatico Software Systems and author of Disproven, my unbiased search for voter fraud

for the Trump campaign, the data that shows why he lost and how we can improve our elections. And also Mike Lindell, CEO and inventor, founder of MyPillow, known almost just by the single word pillow increasingly in modern society. It's really incredible. Listen, gentlemen, I know that you two have different perspectives on what happened in 2020. And as we think about what may happen in 2024, I think it would be interesting to have a conversation about it. Let me first go, because to me, the default is the election was not stolen. So if someone is making the positive case that it was, I think it fair to start there. Mike, at this point, where do you look? Which states do you point to? What is the mechanism through which you believe the 2020 election was stolen? Well, I'm as you know, since the spring of 2021, I've been all about getting rid of electronic voting machines and going to pay for ballots and counting. It's all about the election platforms. The 2020 election was just the I guess the eye opener that there was problems with computers throughout

our country. And that was everywhere. That wasn't a, you know, I went and bought everybody's voter rolls for the 2020 election. And for example, in the state of Alabama, I had, I went and met with that Secretary of State, and he had 4,600 and some people that voted that were over the age of 110. Now, that doesn't mean they voted for Trump or Biden. That just means there's problem with our computers, because obviously nobody voted at that age. OK, so if maybe to focus this in a little more, because I think we would all agree that the rightful winner of Alabama was Donald Trump and that had no real impact ultimately on getting to 270 electoral votes. Are there states, Mike, like, for example, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Michigan, Georgia, Arizona, which you believe were actually won by Donald Trump in 2020?

Oh, yeah, they all were. And and when I say they all were when you have these computers, it's like when you skim off of a casino, you can't just skim one one game or even the food or a slot machine. You have to skim them all or it'll stand out like a sore thumb. As we went into the night of 20 in 2020, got into the early morning hours on November 4th, they stopped everything. That was a deviation. I always look at deviation. They who stopped what? Hold on, Mike. They who and stopped what? Just so Ken can respond substantively. The election officials and all five of them states stopped, including North Carolina. They stopped counting. They said we're going to stop counting. It had never happened before in history.

Stop counting. And then we've seen these deviations come down. I'll give an example. One deviation in Michigan would be one hundred and six thousand votes came down for Biden and three thousand for Donald Trump. And they said that was because there was the mail in votes when in Michigan they were actually counted on the morning of the third, not in the middle of the night on the fourth. Then you had Pennsylvania. Well, let's just work with that. Let's just work with that. I do. I do want to add one more. OK, because it stands out so big. Pennsylvania ended up with more votes than voters, which has never been addressed. And then it's never been. All right. Well, let's see if we can address it. Ken, Mike's made a number of specific assertions there. They stopped counting the votes. There were lopsided numbers of votes counted. There were more vote votes than voters in Pennsylvania. How does a guy like you who was paid by the Trump campaign to look for some of this stuff? How do you react to what Mike says? Yeah. So some of some of the claims require context and some of the claims require proof that I have to take a look at.

But I'm going to try and do them in the order in which Mike laid them out just so I don't lose track of them. You know, Mike identifies a problem that's a real problem, which is I like to call it crappy data, for lack of a better word. And he called out Alabama, which, by the way, charges thirty seven thousand dollars for its voter data, which I find, you know, I pay for. It's an outrageous thing that they do. And it's wrong all by itself. But at least you can get your data from Alabama. You can't get it from Massachusetts or Indiana or New Hampshire or a bunch of other states. I like to pick on New Jersey when we talk about crappy data. New Jersey has 25,000 voters with a year of birth of 1,800. 8,000 of them voted in the 2020 election, but that's not fraud. What it is is lousy data. Computer systems, when they don't know what a date is, if they don't know what it what a date is if they don't

have a date they will default in a date like 1900 or 1800 so it's important to have some context to what it really means when you have voters who are impossibly old it often means that election workers don't have that voters date of birth which by itself is a big problem because if you don't know when the voter is born, you can't determine when they die. So that's super interesting. So on that first one, Ken, what you're saying when Mike says this number of people over age one, 10 voted in Alabama, what you're saying is by virtue of knowing these systems, there's some default birth year that's put in there for people for whom they don't have a birth year.

It is a problem, but it's not fraud. In the case of New Jersey's data where all of all of those voters share the year of eighteen hundred for their their year of birth. That's what that's what explains it. If you see 1901, nineteen hundred, eighteen fifty, more often than not, those are default years of birth that computers. Well, hold on, Mike. Hold on, Mike. You laid out a few things. Let's let so that's an interesting one on that. Ken Fair. Yeah. So but and I do I. I applaud Mike for bringing that up and talking about it, because to have really good election integrity, you can't have it if you don't have all of the

necessary identifying information for your voters. And that includes having the date of birth. OK, so and I could we could have an entire show just about crappy data. But I want to bring up crappy data, though. But wait, Mike, I don't want this to get so lopsided an opportunity to speak. Let's let Ken at least this This ties right into what this exact before he moves on. One of the things he said, OK, when you say data, one of the things I looked at, this is very important because this is what this is why I'm involved with everything I'm involved in.

In in November and December of 2020, I spent every waking hour getting the voter rolls and stuff like he's talking about. Alabama cost me almost $40,000. But one of the things I found in the 2020 election that people had voted in other states or in other counties they didn't live. Now, I had a hard time believing that people in Minnesota said, hey, get first 5000 of us. Let's go jump into Wisconsin and vote for Biden. People are genuinely good people. And you had over 5000 people that voted in Wisconsin that that that don't that don't don't live there. And when they live there, these are the things. So is that bad data or what it is? Speaker 1 Well, that's a new claim, though, Mike. In

order to try to keep this, I want to try to move sequentially through the claims. Five thousand from Minnesota voting in Wisconsin is a new claim. So let me go back to Ken. Ken, what about, for example, more votes than voters in Pennsylvania? So I've heard that claim made before. I haven't seen when you look at the actual number of votes cast, it's not bigger than the number of registered voters. I've never seen an actual official communication from a secretary of state's office of Pennsylvania that shows that there were more votes that were cast. I haven't either. There are registered voters. So and we're not going to we're not going to get to the heart of that one here today.

But, Mike, I'd be very interested in talking to you offline on where you get that data from so I can. It's not the data. It's a fact. You could probably even Google it on the Internet. There was over 400000 more votes than voters. They certified anyway. And as it sits right now, it's about 80 some thousand in the 2020 election. More votes than voters. Like if we walked out of a room, there's 10 of us that voted. It comes back 15 to five. That would be an astonishing, astonishing fact if it was true. I don't believe it's true, but I want to look for sure. I want to talk about

the duplicate voter claim because in my work for the Trump campaign, not only did they ask my company to data mine for dead voters, to data mine for voters who were voting twice in two different states. We did this work for the campaign. we found hundreds of provable people who voted twice. And Mike, you used Wisconsin and Minnesota with a set. Was that the. No, no, no, absolutely not. No, well, hold on, Mike. Not absolutely not.

You said five thousand Minnesota voters went to Wisconsin. Cherry pick it. No, you're cherry picking out. I'm giving you examples, David. You didn't you didn't sit here and tell me I had to come with all these sheets if you wanted. I could. No, no. Present whatever you want.

No, every single state in the 2020 election had people vote in that state that did not live in that state. That's a fact. You can check it out. Every single one. Now, if you go to a county at the county level, maybe when I've checked counties, let's say there's 100 people in the county in my own county that don't live there that voted. I don't believe that those people actually came in to commit a crime. I believe that their names were taken off the voter rolls. That's

all done with computerized, done with computer. Mike, you've made the claim. Let's we just we have to allow Ken to address it. I think I was probably registered in more than one place at some point, which is completely legal. As long as I'm only voting in one place, I think that that's fine. Hold on, Michael. Hold on, Mike. Hold on, Mike. Hold on.

Hold on. Tiffany. Tiffany Trump, for example, I think was registered in two places. She only voted in one vote. Ken, what about voting where you don't live? Address voting where you don't live, Ken. OK, so there are two outcomes in voting where you don't live. One is you have somebody who lives in Idaho who casts a vote in georgia so that's one example of a type of situation the other type of situation is you have someone who takes two bites of the apple they actually vote in two different places both of these situations happened in 2020 uh and when people took two bites of the electoral apple, they were committing a

felony. When somebody lived in one state and voted in a different state, and I evaluated this specific claim for the Trump campaign, they brought it to my attention and they asked me to review it and vet it to see if it was going to survive legal scrutiny. And the claim was that in Georgia, 15,000 people cast votes in Georgia who didn't live there. And while it's true that there were people who cast votes in Georgia who didn't live there, where it gets tricky is a lot of those people were members of the military and they were serving at Fort Benning, which is one of the largest military installations in the country. More than 100,000 members of the military work there and they cycle in and out of there all the time.

And members of the military are allowed by law to vote where they're serving. So that claim would never have made it very far in the legal system, because that's the only place where these claims matter. If you're going to contest an election and you're going to try to get the results overturned in the legal system, if the claim isn't going to survive legal scrutiny, it's not a worthwhile claim. In this circumstance, there were more voters identified in Georgia than any other state who didn't live in Georgia, but yet cast the vote there. And that maps on top of Georgia having the largest military installation in the country in the form of Fort Benning. So like Mike, Mike, do you believe when Ken says that, do you think Ken's confused?

Do you think Ken's lying? Because he was paid to find this stuff by the Trump campaign. Well, you know, I got $30 million in this, David. I paid a little money out of it, too. And here's what we did. We took, I didn't go out and shoot on Georgia overturning any election. This has been three years where we're going, we need to get rid of the electronic voting machines, the computers. Here's what we did. Pick a county, pick any county. I'll pick Harvard County, my county.

We had canvassers go out. We got the voter rolls from the county, who voted, who was put on the voter rolls, and who voted in the election. We went out and it was usually six people or more that lived in a house. Now, I've lived here all my life. We went down, the canvassers go down, they knock on Amy Schultz or whatever, her house house and say, Amy, you're living here by yourself. It says seven people here voted. Well, then we look at the name. She goes, no, it's just been me like always. And we take the six people that voted. Now we investigate them. Four of them live in another state. Two of them are deceased. Okay. so then we take those four and we reach out to them. Did you vote here? No, no, they did not vote there. The people we contact the people. This

is called canvassing to physically back up what the the voter what the data is saying. And the data says they voted in that county or that state. I'm not here to tell you something to overturn an election. I'm here to tell you. Yeah. And no one's brought that up, at least yet, Mike. Right. Mike, we need to get rid of the in terms of the view that Ken is presenting, though, like, do you think Ken's just wrong or he is incompetent and couldn't find the fraud you claim exists? Like, what do you hear when this is this has took me three years. And we also have a lot of other data to back this up. Under the Freedom of Information Act, we were able to get the CASFO records, which come out of the machines, for one third of the United States. So we take the CASFO records.

We take the canvassing, the on-ground canvassing. I got you. And then we take the voter rolls and we combine all three. And they all three match. Now, but the only thing that they match, but the people didn't commit a crime. People didn't go, I'm going to go vote twice. That's not true. You're going to have that.

But this is in a massive scale using names with the dirty voter rolls like Wisconsin has 7.2 million names on their voter rolls. And every registered voter voted in Wisconsin is four point one million. Why do they need those other three million names? OK, that's a good specific question. That's a good specific question. Ken, do you do you think Mike believes this stuff or do you think Mike's confused? Oh, I'm confident Mike fully believes this stuff. I mean, he has put his money where his mouth is. I don't think anybody can claim that Mike doesn't fully believe in what he's talking about. So for that reason alone, I give him credit for his conviction for sure.

You know, again, I'm trying to flow as we sort of jump from from it's hard to do. So, yeah, another. But what I'd like and I'm just I'm just trying to pick the thing that I think will have the most impact as we talk. Yeah. I like to talk about electronic voting machines at a high level for a minute. yes, if you don't protect yourself, you leave yourself open to either external forces hacking those machines or somebody slipping some code in there potentially to alter the count itself. There are some nefarious computer hacking things that you can do. There are plenty of protective steps that you can take to minimize and eliminate the possibilities for that. I turned to the casino industry to look for that. You have slot machines, which are individual computers, and I do a lot of work with the gaming industry.

You can absolutely ironclad protect yourself from ensuring that the wrong software is not running in your slot machines and making other people rich who just know how to game the system. You have no proof and there's no realistic outcome where a hand count is going to be more accurate than a machine count. And I'm just going to talk about, let's just talk about Maricopa County in Arizona, because that's been the punching bag for a lot of this. Yep. There's about one and a half million votes cast in Maricopa in 2020. Each ballot that gets cast in Arizona has anywhere from 10, 20, maybe 30 different races on it. So imagine trying to hand count 30 million different

vote tallies from a one and a half million ballots. It's a monumental effort, one that's almost certainly going to lead to errors because human beings can't do a repetitive process like that in general, anywhere near as capably and dependably as a computer to do it. Well, let's ask Mike if he even would concede that. I'm curious, Mike, do you agree that the machines in general are more accurate at counting than people? No, a million percent. No, I have met with UK uk officials france belgium germany the netherlands met with them all and we devised the best hand counting system in the world it was used in osage county missouri in an actual election two years ago democrats republicans working together we got done at the

same time of the machines with a hundred percent accuracy now argentina last summer a judge ruled there finally said hey we got to go to paper ballots hand count they got they can flip their country over and they did it in four months faster than the Netherlands would took five months and Taiwan just did it Ecuador just did it all these countries have outlawed machines computers around the world the Philippines they've all outlawed them we just just had, and when you talk about, he's using Maricopa County for an example. In the Cary Lake race, remember, 242 machines went down at the same time, and they're all, that was impossible. They're not tied to the internet, so how could they all go down at the same time with the same exact problem? You watched in Georgia

this last fall, an Obama-appointed judge, the curling case, three and a half years ago, she finally said, you know what? These experts that looked inside these machines say there's problems. We're going to let this case go forward. Halderman hacked in with a ballpoint pen into the machine and flipped the election. And it's still pending in court right now in Georgia. So, you know, Mike, if there's so much that you're dumping on us that it's hard to keep up with each one of the claims. Even Republicans in Maricopa, to my knowledge,

were satisfied that no one was disenfranchised. But like Ken, how do you deal with when Mike goes, they all went down, disconnected from the Internet? It's all crazy. So I would ask. Have you looked at what it would take to turn maricopa county into a hand count county absolutely we have we've looked at every place in the united states remember we had that prior to 2000 we this is what we had can you don't know what goes on those black boxes that are sitting there we just want a fair election in our community no matter what a hand count a hand count wouldn't stop somebody from voting somewhere where they don't live yeah absolutely but it would stop them one for a computer where one guy can press and change millions of votes or tens of thousands of votes but that wasn't the argument

you were making for what took place though mike that wasn't the argument you were making for what took place, though, Mike. That wasn't the argument. You know, 100 percent. I'm not saying I'm saying that people didn't do this. It was done with computers. You do understand that, David? I'm saying this was the Uniparty, Deep State, Globalist, CCP. This is who did this. OK. And yes, it was computers that were used.

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I'm sure he's polling for him now. He exit polled 30,000 swing state voters and asked them who they voted for and why. And what he learned and what he published in a report that everybody can see on politico.com is that one out of six of the 30,000 voters his people interviewed were Republicans who ran away from Trump. One out of six. Another one out of six another one out of six who voted were first-time voters motivated to vote against trump and interestingly in 2016 one out of six roughly one out of six exit poll voters were motivated for the first time to vote for trump so trump motivated a lot of people to vote for him in 16 and in 2020 i think because of covid in particular, according to Fabrizio. So what Fabrizio is basically saying is the election was lost largely because rhinos, in effect, didn't vote for Trump after Trump told him to take a long walk off a short period.

Where's your question here? Where's your question? Well, so what I'm giving you is some hard evidence that the election is – That's not hard evidence. That's not hard evidence. Well, let me see. Who is this guy? I don't get to see what his poll – I give you hard evidence. You say, well, let me look into it. I don't see it.

I don't know this guy. You should look into it. That's not hard evidence. If you Google – What's the question? Well – What's the question? I believe that his – well, so I have three data points for you. The first one is his poll, which identified that the reason for the loss was the loss of Republican support from Republicans in the middle.

Raffensperger, who I know you don't give a lot of credence to, but he identified 30,000 Republican primary voters in 2020 who didn't vote in the presidential election. And another 30,000 votes were cast in Georgia in 2020, where all the down-ticket Republicans received a vote, but the presidential race was left blank. And the margin of victory, as we all know, was just under 12,000 votes in Georgia. When I looked at county-level statistics from every county in the country, and you look at red states, and you look at blue states, and you look at red and blue counties, purple counties, on average, when you look at Trump's share of the vote as a percent of all the votes that were cast, Trump did about two and a half percent less well across the country in 2020 than he did in 2016. This is my data. 2020 than he did in 20 say this is my data 2020 than he did in 2016

that's right you just validated the skim that's right you're beautiful right mike's argument is this was done in every state to hide everywhere everywhere exactly you just validated for me so that's bananas and the reason i say it's bananas is because, first of all, most states have different voting systems than every other state. And the many times counties have different voting systems. So to have a consistent. What do you mean? What do you mean different voting systems? Do you know that the all the computers that they run off a thing called GMS and ES&S is the biggest computer company in the country that runs our elections? Yeah. Out of Omaha, Nebraska.

They are the biggest machine company. They haven't sued me yet. I wish I'd pile them right on the pile, which would be fine. I want to ask you this. Let me ask something here. How do you explain this? Talk about Crooked Brad Rassenberg. If you're a Democrat in Georgia and you plan on winning, for me, this isn't about Democrats, Republicans, or Donald Trump.

My whole life since the spring of 21, when Jimmy Kimmel asked me, Mike, if the shoe was on the other foot and Donald Trump was selected like you say Biden was, would you still be sounding the alarm? And I said, yes, I would. And everybody knows I would. I don't it doesn't matter. I think it's a blessing to Donald Trump. They did take it then because what we've learned now in the last three years in in in Georgia in the summer of 22, three Democrats, this nice lady, her and her husband got zero votes in her own precinct. Now there, how do you explain that? You can't. My question for my question for Ken, how do you explain? I'm here to tell you that this is within every state.

It was in every state, every county. And you're saying, well, they have different systems. No, they don't. They all run off jams. Yes. And as we have the same ballot images that came out of Mesa County, Colorado, that came out of Smartmatic. So how does he explain it?

How does he explain it is the question. No, I'm explaining to you because they're on the Internet. They're all horizontal. OK, they're all horizontal. Yes, SNS was with me. Their owners were with me at a Senate hearing in Louisiana. And they were asked, are your machines more secure than Dominion's? They said, absolutely not. They all have back doors they're all hackable now they're horizontal

hackable just because i have a computer at my pillow one's a dell and one's an apple they are they can be connected through the internet okay okay so ken how do you explain that, I guess? Yeah. So I'm going to – I'm dealing with a lot of moving goalposts here. Yeah, I know. I know. I'm struggling with trying to keep up and to, again, have – trying to do something productive in what we talk about. So – Let me frame it this way, Ken. Let me say this.

I have two things to say. Two things to say. Let me frame it this way, Ken. what you're presented with are more hearsay type things that don't necessarily have the solid evidence, recreatable evidence that you need to survive legal scrutiny that you have to have. And the story that I'll tell you is that in my engagement with the Trump campaign, which started off with just find us the dead voters, find us the people who voted twice. And what the lawyer, the lawyers who I reported to quickly appreciated that we really understood what we were doing and that we were thorough. And they asked us to start performing their due diligence on the claims of voter fraud that were pouring in from all over the country. And we did that. And we were asked to basically vet each claim.

And if it stood up and would survive legal scrutiny, they were going to go to court with it. If it didn't stand up, they weren't going to take it to court because they didn't want to be involved with false claims and bringing forward bad data into court. We looked at 20 claims from across the country. Every one of them was false, oftentimes because whoever did the analysis didn't fully understand what they were looking at, a claim of three quarters of a million duplicate votes cast in Wisconsin. Well, they missed all the

online votes, all the in-person votes, and that was the difference. We had a whole bunch of claimed duplicate votes, deceased votes, where people matched on names and addresses and dates of birth and said, hey, it's a match. It's got to be the same. It's not the same guy. It usually isn't much more than it is. And so and some of the claims were just bonkers out the gate and would never have survived because they had no data behind them at all. Nothing recreatable, hearsay evidence, which no judge in the country is going to allow, right? So that's what we dealt with in November of 2020. And I was up pretty much the whole month as well, Mike, dealing with all that. And, you know, it's hard to have a conversation where, you know, you're looking at it, you're

trying to deal with it scientifically, you're trying to deal with it with credible, recreatable evidence. And one of my favorite saying is actual fraud is detectable, verifiable and quantifiable, right? You got to have those three pieces in order to be able to bring data into court successfully and not get bounced out on your rear end. So, you know, that's that's really where I came at from it. And, you know, look, I believe strongly that we can and should be doing much better. I'm not so much focused on

the actual execution of collecting votes on Election day as I am on voter registration, the dirty data that sits around all of that sort of stuff. I believe we should we can and should do it much better than we do. And I think that's the most productive place for everybody to turn our attentions to try to increase our election integrity moving forward. Mike, I've got a question for you, and this might require a little soul searching. I just want let me get the question out and you can take it wherever you want. You had at least for a period after the 2020 election, what we might call access to the former President Donald Trump, at least to some degree, if not directly, it seems to

be reported at least to some degree, if not directly, it seems to be reported at least indirectly. Why do you think that the guy who had the biggest incentive to find the most direct path to to to identifying the fraud? Why did he take Ken's word for it rather than yours? If the case you're making is so convincing? You know, David, you'd have to ask him that. But I will say this is I look at the 2020 that it didn't get overturned back then because I believe we would have lost our country forever if it would have been flipped back to Donald Trump. And I say that with all sincerity because of so much we have found over the last three

years and to now we can be proactive. You fix things like my company. In 2012, we took in $100 million, but we were $6 million in the whole employee-owned company. But we learned from that. We pulled it all in-house. We took apart what went wrong, deals that went wrong, betrayal, all these things. And by the way, if you want to help my company today, you can use promo code David or Pac-Man on the last time I was on your show

that they all wanted a deal. But, but I will say this is my company. You know, we've been attacked by all these machine companies and you kind of wonder why are they still attacking me now when obviously we're not going to overturn the 2020 election. I quit that ship sailed a long time ago. I'm going, this opened the crack going, hey, we've got some serious problems and it's with these computers. And what I've done, what I'm doing now being proactive, we're going to request that everyone in the country at lyndaleplan.com that they go there and they request their mail-in ballot. Even if they're

going to vote earlier or day of, they request their mail-in ballot. Then if they get there on whenever they vote and they say, I'm sorry, you've already voted. Now we have evidence that everybody can understand. Do you agree, Ken, that that would be identity theft? If I got there and someone said, I'm sorry, Ken, you've already voted. I don't know if that works, Mike. I'll let Ken address it. But it seems that if you request such a ballot, but don't turn it in, you're still allowed to vote on Election Day. So, Ken, would that be the ironclad way to find fraud that Mike thinks it is? You have to now you're dealing with the rules and regulations that every state and sometimes every county puts on top. And that's one of the things that makes giving an answer here very difficult to do because you're probably going to be wrong in some places.

Generally speaking, if you have requested a mail ballot, you are expected to turn that mail ballot in with you when you go to vote in person. That's correct. That's correct. That's correct. And if they say you've already voted, then you can say, no, I haven't. It's right here in my hand. That's what we're saying. It's a very easy way to say that there's something wrong. If my name was used, I'm protecting my name from the voter rolls. They can't use my name because this happened in the 2020, especially the 2022 election in some places in Democrats in Kansas. We're getting their votes were getting flipped to

Republican in Kansas. And this is my teams were on the ground. And I said, you know what? They couldn't say, oh, you've already voted. And I said, they say, no, we haven't voted. But having that mail-in ballot in your hand, that's kind of a good evidence of the no evidence right here. And let's talk about the mail in ballots a little bit. And then we're going to kind of be getting to the last thing here. I love exploring new countries. If you follow me on Instagram, you see me in Italy or France or Denmark, Spain. I do speak English and Spanish fluently. But if I'm going to be. 10 minute lessons are just perfect for me. I can do it on the go, do it during a lunch break. It's only a little bit of a time commitment each time. And you end up with a surprising level of comfort with the language after just a few weeks, which was perfect before my recent

trip to Italy. Studies from Yale, Michigan State University and others continue to prove Babel is better and Babel is faster. One study found that using Babel for 15 hours is equivalent to a semester at college in a language class. Here's a special limited time deal for my audience right now. Get up to 60 percent off your Babel subscription, but only for my audience at Babel dot com slash Pacman. Rules and restrictions may You know, Mike, I saw a video where you seemed a little bit rattled after Donald Trump did a 180 from the 2020. This is total fraud, even though he voted by mail. Mail in is bad. Early is bad. Absentee is bad.

Then Trump, I think, realizing that he needed to say something that it is this backdoor way to find the fraud or whatever. Bottom line, Mike, and then I want to hear from Ken. Do you believe that absentee vote by mail and early voting inherently increase what you define as fraud? You absolutely you should vote same day, vote same day, and ideally same day, paper ballots, hand counted, precinct level. I have said that, I will never get off. It's hard for them to steal that day. Now, when you, so when I'm going, well, the RNC and all of them came up and the president, they said, well, vote any way you can we're gonna too big to rig is what he called it now too big to rig i'm saying that people are going to do that

this is what i'm encouraging people to do at least protect your name get that mail-in ballot get your get your ballot so that you have it and then when you go to vote in person maybe you can't vote the day out but you go vote in person and if they say you've already voted, they're going to download them to my app, which is Frank Social, my election app. And we're going to take all this. You've got an app for everything, Mike. Absolutely. We've got you know, this is where my thing is. I want to help save our country. OK, so your answer to this question, whether you are David Pakman or Mike Lindell, whatever you're at in politics, remember, I never was a Democrat or Republican. I was an expat cocaine addict.

I had never voted in my life. I got you. You know, so, Mike, but so your answer is this man. Your answer is, yes, the mail-in leads to fraud. But protect yourself by requesting your mail-in ballot. Ken, systemically, is there evidence that anything other than voting on Election Day in person increases what we define as fraud in elections? So it is a fact that it's harder to commit voter fraud voting in person than it is voting

by mail, where you do so anonymously and in a great many states without showing any real uh identification that really helps everybody ensure that the person who cast the vote is the person who should have cast the vote uh looking at voter see to me the if we're talking about what something we can do to fix the biggest problem we have in elections, I think the biggest problem we have is that we have 50 different states doing voter registration 50 different ways, oftentimes not coordinating with each other, doing it differently, doing it poorly in a lot of cases. And some places do it better than others. Right. I think we should have a federal voter registration. One place. You do it that way. We don't have the mistakes of 50 people. Right. We don't have any of that problem. And if you do it federally, you now have an identifier that everybody would have to use when they vote by mail. You don't like that idea, though, Mike. No, that would be insane.

That's probably the most insane idea. We need to decentralize it down to the precinct level where you're down to your own community, where you see yourself vote. That's what needs to be done the way it was before. Sometimes the best things are done by hand. And you know the people at that level. You do it at the federal level. And now you have one machine.

It's just like all of our UOCAVA votes now. All of our UOCAVA votes are done by mail-in. There's no IDs whatsoever. This is our military. We have places like in Idaho or in Utah where they try texting in your vote and texting or emailing in your vote. Now, come on. You have a federal thing there, and you're going to trust one person now on these computers. OK, we're going to and we're supposed to trust

that. Why not trust in our own backyard at the precinct level and do it at that level? What about that? What about the single point of failure of that? There is no single. No, I'm asking Ken. I'm asking Ken, does Ken agree that there's a single place where this could go wrong? So, you know, my question to both of you is, do you trade stocks? No, I just I hold low cost index funds for a really long time. Do you trade stocks at all? I used to. OK. Do you trust those computers? Do you trust those computers? Absolutely not. If there was something wrong, I would check it and I would have a way to check it. You can't trust computers. There can be mistakes in all computers. Let me tell you something, Ken. When there's a hack or a breach in computers or a mistake, it can be, you know, you hack in, you get people, you fix it, you fix the hack, and then your insurance covers it.

It's a money thing. When it happens in our elections, you can lose all your freedoms. That's the difference. And we should not be using them. I would not trust any computer in our elections ever again knowing what I know now. You can't do that so what makes this again what makes this so incredibly difficult yes i think mike believes that uh trump's voter fraud investigator me trump's pollster fabrizio and secretary of state raffensperger all three of us who using different methodologies and

using different data sets completely, all were able to show that the reason for the election loss wasn't fraud at all. It was literally the loss of moderate support from Republicans that caused the loss, because it was a narrow loss and there's not that many rhinos, let's face it. But those rhino votes mattered in the close races. Mike keeps claiming his basic premise is fraud is everywhere. There are small amounts of fraud everywhere. There is no evidence at all that massive amounts of fraud were everywhere. I gave that message to the Trump, the top Trump campaign attorney that I reported to, Alex Cannon. He brought it to Mark Meadows, who in response to the finding, hey, we looked and just didn't find any fraud to change the results.

His answer was, well, that means there's no there there, referring to the claims of voter fraud being relatively empty. So I get your zeal, Mike, for solving a problem. The problem is you have to make sure the problem exists before you go to what I think. Hold on. Hold on. We're giving Ken the last word here. We're giving Ken the last word. You have to, before you go to extremes, like we're going to roll back computers and go back to the Stone Age in terms of counting votes. You better have solid evidence that there is a problem of the, and you haven't shown me that evidence. It has to be verifiable, quantifiable, and I haven't seen it, and I'm happy. If you want to deliver me a whole bunch of stuff,

I'll go through it. But to go there without having the evidence, I believe, is dangerous. And it's leading us on a conversation that moves us away from addressing the things that we really should be fixing. Gentlemen, listen, Mike, I'm so sorry. All you have to do is go to Frank speech dot com. The evidence you claim is there. I gotcha. It's all sitting there. I gotcha.

I gotcha. This is about a lady. They got zero votes in her own precinct. Yeah, guys. All right. We're going to look at it. At some point, the conversation must come to an end. Ken, real quick. You don't want to melt down the machines to turn them into prison bars would be incredibly difficult to do our elections by hand. It would take far longer than we think. And who is to say that those people who are accounting late at night aren't going to make their own errors? Not to mention we have better ways at this point of making prison bars and melting machines down, I would say. Listen, gentlemen, Ken Block,

Mike Pillow, Lindell, you've really said it all. I hope that the audience gained some insights here. And I really do appreciate you joining me. Promo code David Pakman. I haven't tried, nor am I in a position to endorse any of Mike's products at this point. I would I would certainly send you some. You've got to give me your address, David. You've got the most comfortable pillow you'll ever own. Thanks, guys. I appreciate your time. Thank you. Mike, it's really nice meeting you. And David, thank you for the opportunity.