The David Pakman Show - ONE-ON-ONE: Resisting Trumpism in red states w/ Jess Piper

Episode Date: August 3, 2025

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Hey, everybody, what you are about to hear is a recent substack live I did with political activist Jess Piper. Jess is a Democrat in deep red rural Missouri. And we discussed the challenges she faces as well as the importance of rebuilding democratic presence in these places. If you like these types of conversations, make sure to subscribe to our sub stack. It's completely free at sub stack dot David Pakman dot com. Here's my conversation with Jess Piper. Well, we are live. It is great to have Jess Piper joining me today. It's sort of like Activism Week on the David Pakman show. Substack. Yesterday we spoke to Olivia Giuliana, who's doing a lot of really great stuff down in

Texas, but then also nationally on specific issues. And Jess, you're in Missouri, you're in a red part of Missouri. And so there's so many different things I want to talk to you about. I mean, maybe just to start, Jess mentioned before we went live that Jess recently read my book. In my book, which I really appreciate, in my book, I talk about activism that hopefully will make an impact. And I want to hear a little bit from you as someone who both read what I wrote about, but is also doing this stuff as a progressive activist in a red area. What is it like on the actual ground? I mean, are there things I'm writing about that are effective? What other sort of tactics are there for activists, especially

in red areas? Give us like a lay of the land. Yeah. So what you wrote is great. And it's also nice for you to acknowledge that there are activists in really red places. There are rural Democrats, rural progressives all over the country. And I know that's hard for some people to believe. And when I write about it on my own sub stack, I get lots of messages from people who are on the coast, people who live in blue states. And they're like, oh my God, I had no idea. Like one of the big myths that you may have heard

is that, you know, we vote against our self-interest. And I hear that a lot. And I would say, how could I vote in my self-interest? I don't have Democrats on my ballot. You'll hear people, you know, talk, you know, sort of rub our nose about living in red rule spaces. And to that, I would say, I mean, I'm not exactly my neighbors, but

this is the only way we take the country back, and that is to go into places where Republicans have run uncontested and have won for decades. In my district that I ran in and and and I got taken to the woodshed over, we haven't elected a Democrat in 32 years. We often don't elected a Democrat in 32 years. We often don't have a Democrat on the ballot. When we, you know, there's this kind of double-edged, not a double-edged sword, but there's sort of like a, you know, when you talk to the activists

in the bluest states, in blue cities and blue states, for example, it's a much more comfortable environment to do activism in some ways. But in a utilitarian sense, you may not have as much impact because things are already closer sort of to what you want. Right. So on the other hand, in red areas, you're up against more difficulty in some ways, but

you also have the potential for the successes to maybe make more of a difference. Like, I don't want to dismiss what anybody's doing, but does that kind of make sense? Yeah, reaching into red places, and I talk about this all the time, I fund, I work with an organization called Blue Missouri. We fund the down- down ballot Democrats that nobody else will give money to. We fund people that we know are going to lose and people will say, why in God's name would you do that? Well, how are we ever going to come back? We can't squeeze one more blue vote out of Kansas City or Springfield or St. Louis or Columbia. 33% of this state is rural.

And if we don't pull rural people and rural communities along with us, we don't have a shot. We're not going to be able to come back. And so I look at what the Republicans did, what the playbook was. They started with local races. They started with town councils. They started with school boards and then they built up after that. And so by me going into rule spaces,

now I talk to rule Democrats, and what I'm doing is being a cheerleader and saying, hey, you gotta get out and talk to your neighbor. You gotta get out and find a candidate. You have to make sure that every seat is uncontested. And this is what people should know. In August, last August, I went to vote in the primaries. I did not have anyone to vote for,

for sheriff, for auditor, for county commissioner, for coroner, for state rep, nobody. So again, I would love to vote in my self-interest. I don't have anyone to vote for. At the national level, sometimes these discussions, you know, thinking back to 2016 when it was Trump versus Hillary, there was sort of a debate among some on the left about, all right, well, I might not like either candidate, but there is a clear lesser bad here. And then you had some fringes on the left that were like, no, they're equally bad. And of course, as we see the Supreme Court now, I would argue that they weren't equally

bad. We would have a very different Supreme Court. But putting that aside for a second, the lesser of two evils narrative is sort of like a thought experiment when it's Trump versus Hillary. To me, it's not real. But in some more rural places and districts, there may be no good candidate. But I guess my question to you is, is there always clearly a lesser evil? Well, I mean, you have to think about places like Missouri. Everyone, you know, discounts us as this red state. Why would we pay attention? 42% of the people voted for Kamala Harris. We're not that far gone. And so what happens is you start creating apathetic voters because

why in God's name would I go and vote if Trump's going to win anyway? If I'm a progressive, if I'm a Democrat, what's the point of me voting if I can't even vote for a state representative because there's not a Democrat on the ballot? So we create this narrative, but then we sort of fulfill it by not having anyone people can vote for. But when it comes to national levels, I mean, we're not that far behind. Iowa even voted for Kamala at a higher rate. I want to say it was 43%.

And so when we think about the country as a whole, and you remember the 50 state strategy, there was something there. There was something that we should have done because Wyoming has as many senators as California does. And why we walked away from that, I don't know. And I hear a lot of people, a lot of progressive that will, they're angry at red states and red districts because we have outsized power. You bet we do and you know what? That's exactly why you go back to those places. That's exactly why you contest it because we do have outsized power. So why not go to Wyoming? Why not go to Montana? Why don't you go to these places and bring the voters back? One of the things that sometimes people will say to me about the not being motivated to vote vote either because they don't really like any of the candidates or often it's when has one vote

ever made a difference? When did an election ever come to down to one vote? Now there are some local anecdotes where an election has come down to one vote but now there are some local anecdotes where an election has come down to one boat but it's a very good point at least as far as congressional district senate and president go governor etc. and what i usually say to those folks and i want to hear from you whether there's maybe a better way to motivate them is listen you're right the election is unlikely to depend only on your boat but think about how many voters have that same thought. When how likely is my vote to matter as a voting block if all of the folks who wonder about the value of their vote stay home. Then we definitely lose but as a voting block if everybody who has that doubt says i of tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, millions of people who wonder about the value of my vote,

as a voting block, that's a very powerful voting block. Is that a way to maybe motivate some of these folks to vote, or are there better ways? That's a great way. And when I talk to people who are apathetic, they're like, it really doesn't matter. Well, you know what? It really might not matter for presidential in Missouri. But does it matter? Your vote, there's 45

people that voted in my town for town council. There's 47 who voted, you know, for the school board. This is the thing. We might not be able to change Trump at this moment, but I can make sure that I put someone on the school board that's gonna, you know gonna fund our public schools who isn't gonna fall in line with school choice people that are stripping our schools of funding and sending it to private religious schools that our kids don't have any access to.

I live in a town of 480 people. I knocked doors all over Northern Missouri. We knocked over a thousand doors. I never had somebody come to the door and say, I want my money to go to a private religious school. You know, I'm worried about bathrooms. Nobody said any of that stuff. And so bringing it down to the local level and reminding people that the most the most pain I feel in my state isn't coming from DC is coming from Jeff City. My roads aren't paved not because of Trump or Biden. They're not paved because my state representative will not approve funding.

Our kids don't have science labs because our state representatives and state senators. And so this is something that you remind them. It would be fantastic if Kamala was in office right now, but we'd still be fighting, you know, a captured SCOTUS. We'd still be fighting, you know, a captured SCOTUS, we'd still be fighting people in Congress. But we can go down to Jeff City and make a lot of, you know, movement and progress, paying attention to local races. In your I'm very interested in this town of 480 people thing.

Do you know everybody in the town? I don't know everybody, but I bet they know me. Okay, fair. I know most of the people that the next town over is about, well, they say it's 11,000 people, but 8,000 of them are at the university. So it's a town of 4,000 or 5,000 people. When we go out to eat, I know everybody at the restaurant. In that environment, are social issues or economic issues more relevant through the local races?

Not like why someone might vote for Trump or Harris, but in terms of the local candidates, what gets more traction in terms of motivating people? The roads, keeping our hospitals open. We know that this Medicaid bill is going to absolutely decimate our hospitals We have been under a GOP supermajority for 22 years and 19 of our rural hospitals have closed You've got people who want to give birth and they're an hour and a half away from the hospital that they've got to get to If you need specialized care in my area, you're gonna go two and a half hours And so these things are hyper local They talk about the price of ground beef, which by the way, friends, is almost $9 a pound.

They talk about the price of our electricity, which is about to hit the roof. I can talk about in my local town, our water bill went up by a hundred percent. And guess what? You got people going to town council meetings with their water bill in their pocket. These are the things that make people get politically active and come out and try to do something

about it. It's not the bathroom bills, it's not the Epstein files, it's the fact that you know I can't afford to feed my kids tacos. When it comes to local elections I know that there are certain local, this is speaking nationally, there are places where even though you know someone's political allegiance, local races are officially nonpartisan. In other words, you can't look and go, oh, who's the Democrat, who's the Republican?

What's it like where you are? That's very much like what it's like, especially if you're running for town council or if you're running for the school board, because everyone knows I'm a Democrat. I mean, I was one of, you know, just a few people who put up a Biden sign. Does that make my neighbors hate me?

No, I mean, we don't believe in the same politics, but I mean, I've got a Trump neighbor across the highway and our cows got out and he put them up for me, you know, because he didn't want my cows to be hit or to cause an accident. So we have different beliefs, but when it comes down to living among these people, they would probably vote for me for school board. I was a former teacher.

And in these small places, too, we don't have like moms for liberty. There's nobody going and throwing a fit about the local teacher, you know, teaching to kill a mockingbird. You don't hear that kind of stuff because we just kind of just let it go. It's the national politics when they seep in that it gets kind of nasty. What are the issues on which, and maybe this would apply more broadly than where you are, and this might be interesting for people who are wherever in the country to hear, in the country to hear. What are the issues where you believe or maybe even have the evidence for you can make the most tangible change working as a progressive activist in a red area in terms of you know you might say well

it's not abortion because that's mostly handled at a completely different level it's school curricula or whatever, right? I mean, just to give people a sense of the sort of change that you can advocate for and maybe succeed with at the local level, what sort of areas? It's definitely schools, roads, hospitals, healthcare, all of those things. We know in the state of Missouri that two out of three people who are in the nursing home are on Medicaid. We know that 40% of the kids born in this state are on Medicaid.

We know that we don't have shoulders on our road and we have combines and we have tractors. And if you try to meet one of those, your kid is on the highway with a combine, there's a problem. All of these things are nonpartisan, keeping our post offices open. All of these things matter to everyone out there. And so the reason that Republicans have to use wedge issues is because the difference between me and a Republican is this big. It's not very wide. So they have to use those wedge issues to break us apart. But the things that people should be talking about are everyday, you know, the prices at the grocery store.

Like I was talking about, you know, the meat. I paid, you know, $4 and something for coffee for years, and now it's almost $6. People can't afford rent. We're telling kids, hey, move into vans instead of trying to find a house. My kids just graduated college. Good luck finding a job they're on indeed for hours a day, and AI is replying to them.

These are issues that everyone is struggling with, and these are issues that everyone can talk about and they feel partisan, but they're not because we all need these things to get by and to live. That sort of gets directly into the next issue about apathetic voters that I wanted to bring up with you, which is, sometimes I'll meet people who just go, oh, I'm not really into politics, I don't really follow politics. And then, you know, you have a two minute

conversation where you go, really, what, what do you really care about? And no matter what they say, it, it of course relates to who's in power, who was, who won the recent elections. And it might not be federal, it might be state or it actually might be mayoral, or it could be school board, or it could be who's figuring out what the priorities of the Department of Public Works are going to be. But one of the things that I think is effective is connecting who we vote for to whatever issues people are saying, I don't care about politics, I care about this other thing, and kind of explaining that is downstream from who we vote for. Yeah. And saying that you're not involved or you don't follow politics is a, you know,

a pretty, it's a way that people who don't need what other people need, what's the word, privilege, there's the word I'm looking for. It's a privileged thing to say that because politics matter to everybody. Politics matter about like the things I was saying schools and roads. And so when my friends say that most of the time, David, they're Trump voters. And so they're trying to, you know, get away from it. A lot of the Trump voters I know and I talk about Trump voters a lot because I'm related to them because I live next to them. And a lot of them right now are like, oh, I don't see what's going on. You know, I'm going camping, I'm going fishing. I'm not going to do these. I'm not going to talk about politics anymore because my guy is in and things aren't going well. So pulling our

privilege away and saying that politics impact the marginalized and the oppressed more than everybody else. And we all have to pay attention and reminding it's not, we're not being rude to talk about politics because I was raised to not talk about politics or religion because that's rude. I'm supposed to talk about the weather. Okay, let's talk about the weather, David. Let's talk about the fact that they took 25% of the budget and now I don't know if it's gonna rain or not.

I don't know what's going on with the weather. We're having all these disasters and the FEMA guy is walking away from it because of the flooding in Texas and because of the terrible things that are happening. So if you don't want to talk about politics, talk about the price of meat. Right. Now it's funny because the weather is seen as this sort of prototypical non-political thing, but between budget cuts and climate change, the weather now seen as this sort of prototypical non-political thing, but between budget cuts and climate change, the weather now is opening the door to a lot of really, really political

conversations. I'm curious about immigration because there's sometimes, I don't know that it's a funny thing. It's more of a sad thing where I don't remember which elected official it recently was who said, you know, if I hear more people in Pennsylvania talk about immigration and the situation at the border, I'm gonna lose my mind. And it doesn't mean that the number of immigrants coming to the country isn't an issue in every state, at least theoretically it is.

People don't just stay in border states and many people fly into New York City. It's not that it's only a Texas issue, but I'm curious where you are. To what degree, or let me put it a different way, there are some red areas that seem to understand how economies depend on immigrants, both documented and undocumented, and so despite being red areas, they're not doing the crazy anti-immigrant stuff. What's it sort of like where you are? Yeah, it's not the crazy anti-immigrant stuff.

In fact, a lot of people are really worried about people that they know. We have a lot of folks that work in construction, that work in roofing. And I would go out and see signs for people talking about, you know, immigration. And I'm like, well, where are you talking about? We don't even have any immigrants really up in this area. You know, we have a lot of farm. We have a lot of farmland, but it's it's corn and beans, which is done with big machinery, so they don't have a ton of migrant labor except in places like

construction. And so I've seen people who voted for Trump, who are really looking away from that issue because they're embarrassed, because they feel bad, because they thought, and David, here's the thing, math is hard. Trump told them he was going to get rid of 11 million people. That's two states in Missouri. That's our entire population times two. And they were like, I thought we were just getting rid of gang members and criminals.

Well, friend, did you think there were 11,000 or 11 million gang members in this country? And so- Yeah, or even half of them. Right. And so now they're like, oh my God, you know, they meant Jose, my neighbor who works construction in St. Joe. I didn't know they meant Jose. And so that's been a real reckoning.

The sad part is it's really going to be hard to put the brakes on it now. They have lost their minds. They are locking up people for the color of their skin. You know, people who have no criminal records, people who have been here for 30 or 40 years. And so I think I've read that he's underwater with it and I feel it when I'm in communities. And I'm in a lot of chats on Facebook and on Signal. And there are regular everyday people going, my God, we had no idea this was going to happen.

Can you give me a little, not to derail, but some Signal chat etiquette? Because I have to admit, I'm new to Signal. I only got on Signal after the Signal scandal and one of the things I find is, you know, I'm on Signal chats with staffers for electeds and creators and all these different things and I just have to mute everything because it gets completely out of control. I can't actually get anything done. Is that seen as appropriate etiquette on these chats?

It is and I'm in too many right now, but the reason people move from Signal, I'm with I can't actually get anything done. Is that seen as appropriate etiquette on these chats? It is, and I'm in too many right now. But the reason people move from Signal, I'm in a group with a lot of ladies in their 70s and 80s who were worried about Facebook monitoring chats, and so they moved over to Signal. And these ladies are progressive women that stand in the median every single weekend,

fighting for immigrants, fighting for healthcare. And I feel for these people because I'm like, you already fought this. You already went through this. You made the change that, you know, gave women healthcare for five decades. And now they have to be back in these spaces.

You know, I don't normally do this, but I do want to just address one idea that is floating around in the chat, just as you and I are speaking now, which is the idea that immigrants are, quote, criminals just by virtue of being here and being undocumented. You know, I am not standing on any hill saying that those who have committed crimes could get any special treatment or get to stay or anything. But we're talking about a civil matter. Merely being here undocumented is a civil matter. And I don't know that it even is going to change anybody's minds necessarily, Jess.

But I do think if we're not starting with the facts, it's a total derailment. We're talking about a civil issue Right. And I mean, I you know, if they're deporting people for things like that, I mean, I've had traffic tickets It's a misdemeanor. It is the same offense And so I have talked to people who thought that that entering the country illegally was a felony And I'm like not if they're not carrying people or drugs. I mean, it's a misdemeanor. And by the way, I've gone to Canada with my daughter.

Neither one of us have a passport. My daughter was like jumping over the border. Ha ha ha, I'm in Canada. What kind of privilege is that, that nobody shot at us or took her away from me or put me into a camp and sent her God knows where. We have to realize that people are here and they wouldn't be here

if there weren't people employing them. And I think that's really weird too, David. Like, why are we seeing all these people being arrested at job sites? And I don't see any white guy, I don't see any CEO being taken out in handcuffs. There's a problem there. Well, it's funny and sad and tragic

and so many things at once. The idea that we are told that the people that will be deported are some combination of violent criminals and lazy people leeching off of the system. And then they're going to find them at job sites where they are working and also paying into social programs that they will never get benefits out of

because they are undocumented. It's, there's like an incredible image there of contrast that's hard to ignore. Jess, in the sort of last, latter part of our conversation here, I wanna talk a little bit about Substack and the creator space. You know, I think it's really important to mention that every platform I've ever been on,

there have been times where we are at odds, and I'll give some examples. There was a time where YouTube said, "'Political content's too much of a risk to our advertisers. We're not going to monetize political content. It lasted about two months. It was ultimately fixed. There was a time where Facebook said,

we're not promoting political content, period. And views on Facebook dropped 98%. They've now since recovered over the last year and a half. So the point is, every platform can make bad decisions or decisions that are bad for creators. Right now, one of the things that to me seems really great about Substack is number one, that we actually own the data of the people that follow us. I can't export a subscriber list on YouTube or on Facebook. If something were to happen, I can download my sub stack list.

And I think that that's in this time, a really important thing. But zooming out a little bit, just talk about like, what's your approach on the platform? What are you trying to build? What types of folks are you hearing from? So I wasn't trying to build anything. One of my nemesis, he's a state senator here in

Missouri, had done something really terrible. He was running for office and he took boxes that looked like they contained books and then got a flamethrower and lit them on fire. And he in the caption, it said he was burning the woke agenda. And I was just infuriated. I'm sick of him. I'm sick of them doing this stuff like this. And I was on Twitter at the time and there wasn't enough room for me to say what I needed to say about him. So I went to Substack and then I found an audience

because people think I'm a unicorn because they think that rule progressive don't exist. They think that rule Democrats aren't here. And so I ended up getting a following and it's just been nice because I can talk about things that people Democrats aren't here. And so I ended up getting a following. And it's just been nice because I can talk about things that people don't know about. They really don't know we're here. But David, why would they think we weren't here?

My grandparents and great grandparents were farmers and coal miners, and they were union members and they were FDR Democrats. And they knew that good government could make life out here better for them because we are lacking some things that people in the cities have. And the fact that we've gotten away from that and the fact that people think that Southerners and people in the Midwest are automatically red is just, when I tell them it's not like that, it's just mind blowing to people.

So I have built this big platform and the whole point of it was to educate people. I was a teacher for 16 years. I had to quit because I ran for office because in Missouri you can't be a teacher and run for office, which is convenient to keep 66,000 well-educated people out of the political process. But Substack has been a great way for people to read, you know, what's going on. And I'm not the best writer in the world. I'm not writing a book like you did, but I've read enough literature over the years to figure out how to communicate to people. And I'm very glad there is a place for me to do that.

And I've been on Twitter for, well, since the election was over. And so, you know, I've found my people here. Well, the, you know, the writing about activism in rural red parts of the country is really important, so I'm glad you're doing it. If you're one of my followers, please make sure you're subscribed to Jess's Substack. And if you're one of Jess's followers, I'd be honored if you followed mine as well.

Last thing I want to ask you about, any strong feelings about 28 in terms of candidates? Is it too early to even think about, any strong feelings about 28 in terms of candidates? Is it too early to even think about? Are there people you like? I mean, there are a lot of people I like. I think it's too early to think about that, but I've seen like Andy Reshears, you know, maybe Gavin Newsom.

I would like to see a woman run. I would like to see a woman run. I would like to see a woman win. I think it's time. But even in progressive circles, we sometimes run into sexism. I know when I was running for office, I had a local guy say, well, who's, he's not a Republican.

He said, well, who's gonna watch your kids? And I was like, well, who'd watch my kids if my husband won, right? It's the other person. But I'm really focused on 26. I'm really hoping that we can make some change there. I'm hoping we can take over some seats in Congress and we don't have all three branches and SCOTUS captured by Republicans. I'm really focused on getting candidates in Missouri and changing Missouri and

bringing us back to a state that I can feel proud of. It's a beautiful place. There are great people here, but there is a cloud of awful because of the GOP that has been down there for 22 years. And so I'm really focused on local right now, but I mean, I hope that we can make our way out of this. And

Trump's in really poor health and he's got a really long time to go. Looks like, you know, you've heard people say congestive heart failure, and I'm very familiar with congestive heart failure. And I'm just like, not good. Yeah. 26 extremely important. And of course, taking back the house would be huge. You mentioned some interesting people for 28. I recently saw Wes Moore give a speech in person and found him extraordinarily impressive and formidable. So I think that that's interesting.

I'm so far from even endorsing anyone. We're not even talking about that. But I actually think that the bullpen feels quite deep right now in a way that it hasn't for a while for people who I think have good ideas, but who also are just authentically genuine in a way that the Democratic Party really needs. And I don't know about you, I'm no big fan of the Democratic Party as a party. I really see political parties like corporations, which is let's justify our existence. Let's control as much as we can control.

For me, it's like, who are the best candidates? And the prospect of JD Vance on one side against any of the people you mentioned, it's a very obvious choice for me. And that's why we need to get out now. That's why we need to be talking to our neighbors right now. I know that Epstein is not a distraction because there are victims who were hurt.

But the way that we keep spinning this instead of talking about economic issues, it's not extremely helpful to local activists who are talking and trying to knock the doors and talk to people who aren't Republicans, but who are apathetic. You know, if I went and talked about what's going on right now in Twittersphere or Blue Sky, they would look at me like I was insane.

And so we have to remember to bring it back down to things that really matter to people. And that's schools, that's roads, that's healthcare, that's making sure that, you know, kids are fed and that everybody can go to the doctor if they need to. I mean, I really think that the Democratic Party has gotten away from a couple things, but making people healthy, happy, and able to make a living is what we really need to focus on, and away from wedge issues.

And that's how Republicans win, those wedge issues. I wish we would quit talking about them because they start pinning it on us, right? Well, I think the one thing I would add is the Epstein thing, and I had a good conversation with Heather Cox Richardson about this last week, the Epstein thing is turning out to be much more useful than I would have expected to drive a wedge within MAGA.

That doesn't do things in rural communities like you're talking about. We're talking about two parallel tracks, but driving that wedge within MAGA, I still think has its value in thinking about 26. I definitely think that, I mean, bringing justice to people and also driving that wedge is fantastic.

We just have to focus on talking to our neighbors and getting them to vote for the candidate who is not on some list somewhere. I've been speaking with Jess Piper. Jess, thank you so much. It's been great talking to you today and we should definitely do it again. Thank you, I appreciate you. Thanks for all the questions and the statements and yeah, anytime.

All right, we'll talk to you soon, bye. Okay, bye.