The David Pakman Show - Theyre Quickly Losing Control Of Their Own Lies

Episode Date: January 11, 2026

-- On the Show -- Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick falsely claims on Fox News that GDP growth guarantees higher wages and the segment explains how deliberate economic lies are normalized on conservative media -- Stephen Miller repeatedly makes false claims about inflation, COVID lockdowns, and deportations, using dehumanizing rhetoric that goes unchecked and escalates extremist narratives -- House Speaker Mike Johnson warns conservatives that Donald Trump will be impeached if Republicans lose the House, effectively admitting Trump is protected only by partisan control -- Interior Secretary Doug Burgum misleads audiences about wind energy reliability and national security while ignoring grid diversification, storage technology, and documented fossil fuel failures -- A Manhattan Institute survey reveals widespread conspiracy beliefs, racism tolerance, and factual rejection among Republicans, showing misinformation is central to the modern GOP coalition -- Tucker Carlson seriously claims a literal demon physically attacked him in his sleep, illustrating how supernatural thinking is being normalized in right-wing political culture -- The Friday Feedback segment -- On the Bonus Show: Plans for the show in 2026, Pat's upcoming trip, and much more... -- Become a Member: https://davidpakman.com/membership -- Subscribe to our (FREE) Substack newsletter: https://davidpakman.substack.com -- Get David's Books: https://davidpakman.com/echo -- TDPS Subreddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/thedavidpakmanshow -- David on Bluesky: https://davidpakman.com/bluesky -- David on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/davidpakmanshow (00:00) Start (01:27) GDP growth doesn't equal wages (07:53) Miller spreads false claims unchecked (15:10) Trump safe only with GOP (20:50) Burgum misleads on wind energy (28:43) GOP misinfo and conspiracies widespread (38:00) Carlson claims demon attack (47:12) Friday Feedback segment    

We are going to look at how lies spread, how they stick, and what happens when an entire political movement stops caring whether things are true. We'll start with the anatomy of a Trumpian lie about the GDP. We'll get into something more unsettling, Trump allies losing control of themselves on TV and telling stories so detached from reality and filled with dehumanizing elimination language that it should be rejected by all, but it is welcomed by some. And we are going to talk about a moment of honesty that slipped out where a top MAGA Republican admitted if Republicans lose the House in 2026, Trump's getting impeached.

And that is not confidence. That is panic. We will also break down a case where when they assume you won't question them, they will say some really wacky things. And then a poll so disturbing about the core beliefs of the modern Republican Party that I was finding myself stunned. Finally, have you ever been attacked by a literal demon? Not metaphorically, but an actual demon.

Well, Tucker Carlson says he has, and the story actually reveals a lot. All of that and more on today's show. Hope you had a good holiday yesterday. All right, we are going to look today at the anatomy of a Trumpian lie. I'm going to try to explain in the clearest possible terms how this works, how they try to get away with it. Howard Lutnik went on Fox News and was interviewed by Kelly Ann Conway. These are really like the Grinch who stole Christmas type stories. The economy grew 4.3%.

That's great. I mean, listen, GDP growth is good. I'm not saying it's a fake number. I'm not saying 4.3 GDP. That is a great number. And Howard Lutnik goes on TV and he says to Kellyanne Conway, the fact that the GDP went up 4.3% means everybody earns 4.3% more money. Now, that is not true.

But that is that that is what Howard Lutnik said. Lutnik, I believe, knows it's not true. He's not stupid. I think Kelly Ann Conway also, even though economics is not her primary area of focus, I think Kelly Ann Conway also knows that it's not true. But she allows it. Let's listen and then I will explain. The 4.3 GDP growth beating it by a full point of 3.3.

How does that affect our bottom line, our pocketbook issues? So just think, the whole world out there in the third quarter, the United Kingdom grew 0.1. The European Union grew 0.4 and Japan fell 0.6%. fell 0.6%. Donald Trump's economy grew the United States of America. The biggest economy in the world, 4.3%.

What that means is that Americans overall, all of us, are going to earn 4.3% more money. We're making a raise. It's a simple way to do it. We've got more jobs, lower energy costs,

and lower interest rates coming. All right, listen. GDP growth, does not mean wages go up. It does not mean salaries rise. It does not mean household income increases. GDP is a measure of the total value. I feel like I'm back in macro 101 with Professor Richard Wolfe at the University of Massachusetts. GDP measures the total value of goods and services produced in the country. Doesn't measure what workers are paid. GDP can go up for a lot of reasons that do not translate to anybody who works making more money. It can go up because corporate profits go

up because companies raise prices, because stock values increase, or because of higher government spending, none of those guarantee that regular workers see a single extra dollar. And by the way, even when incomes do go up, the gains are often concentrated at the top. You might be able to say, well, the mean wage increase was 4.3%, but it might be 15% for those at the top, and it might be less than inflation for those at the bottom. A relatively small number of people earning a lot more can push GDP higher while workers see little or no change whatsoever. The other aspect of this that's important is inflation. If wages rise by 2% and prices rise by 3%, people are actually worse off in terms of

their buying power, even in a period of so-called strong economic growth, if you get a great GDP number alone and you look at it outside of this context, it doesn't really tell you anything. The other aspect of this is population growth. The country has a growing population. GDP can grow, but because you have more people, GDP per capita might barely move. What actually matters for living standards is income per person, not the overall size of the economy. Howard Lutnik knows this. He's a very wealthy finance executive.

He understands this as a concept. He understands what GDP measures and what GDP does not measure. He's not confused. He's not saying, well, this is a simple shorthand for what is going on. He knows that this is nonsense. This is a propaganda statement. And I think Kelly Ann Conway, who, you know, new alternative facts was a nonsense thing when she said it, just like Trump probably understands that the tariffs are taxes.

I think Kelly Ann Conway knows that 4.3 GDP doesn't mean everybody makes 4.3% more. She lets it go with no challenge, no correction, no follow-up. because that is how the distortions work. She allows it to go by, which reinforces to the audience. It must be true because Kellyanne didn't challenge him about it. That would matter if the goal were accuracy. The goal is not accuracy. The goal is to protect confidence in the president and create a comforting narrative

that everybody can go. GDP is up 4.3, so Trump got me a 4.3% raise. Even if you know you didn't get a race and that everything is costing more. The anatomy of a Trumpian lie is to take a concept, strip away the nuance, replace it with a feel good falsehood, and then go on TV, say it confidently, and have the friendly host Kellyanne Conway not say, wait, wait a second, wait a second. So the lie doesn't really need to survive scrutiny. It needs to go unchallenged. And that is exactly what they accomplished.

This is how they do it. And look at how it was much more complicated for me to explain the reality. And this is the unfortunate thing about it. If you go and just generically say, cutting taxes for the rich stimulates the economy. Wow. I mean, I guess that's pretty concise and pithy. That must make sense. To explain it, I can't just say to you, no, it doesn't.

I have to actually explain why and explain marginal propensity to consume and how tax deductions work and how business expenses are already tax deductible. I've got to explain all of this stuff to you. We've talked about other examples of this when the right says, well, listen, taxes are a burden. So getting rid of them is tax relief. I don't just come in and go, no, taxes are awesome and they should be as high as possible. Because that's not what I believe. That's not what the left believes.

We are trying to explain when they are simply coming up with talking points that are unfortunately really effective. Stephen Miller has quickly become one of the most disgusting liars of this administration. I almost wonder whether lying like this is a sickness. Here is Stephen Miller's appearance on Fox News with, I guess like during the holidays they bring in kind of second stringer hosts. This is a, I think this is Charlie Hurt is this guy's name. Listen to the vitriol that is spewing from the mouth of Stephen Miller.

And you listed a lot of those things and, you know, the lower inflation and gas prices are key to all of that, but there is polling that shows that there remains some frustration among consumers or voters. What does the White House have to do to reach those people or, prepare for this propaganda. This is wild. Changes so that those people feel better. And obviously, they're getting lied to by the media, which has always been a problem for Republicans. But what can the White House do to make, either fix things so that they feel better or convince them that the situation is better?

Well, I think the most important point of all. And the polling shows overwhelming support for President Trump. That is a lie. Polling shows Trump's approval lower than any president other than Nixon in the midst of Watergate. Across every single issue and dimension. But the most important point to hammer over and over again, under Trump won, no inflation. Biden comes in. Devastates the economy. Now, of course, inflation was up everywhere because of COVID.

And it came down dramatically under Biden. We have double digit inflation overall from when Biden entered to when Biden left, prices went up 30% in four years. Donald Trump comes back in and inflation is down to near benchmark rates of 2% within. Now remember that inflation has been down to benchmark rates since June of 2023. It hasn't really changed under Donald Trump. It's just remained the same. How's that even possible? I mean, we knew that man was an economic wizard.

But Charlie, how do you get inflation from 30% to almost 2% in a few months? And of course, he is mixing there. He's talking about cumulative inflation over many years and a year over year inflation. Inflation was never 30%. There is almost no truth in there. There is almost nothing that he just said that is true. And this entire program, never mind channel, Fox, is constructed to put utter lies. out and Miller has the audacity to act angry and disgusted that everybody's not giving Trump credit

for all of this stuff. Here's more of this of this just just garbage possible. Of course it's true. People got pummeled for four years of Biden in every way that a human being can be pummeled. We live through it for four years. COVID lockdowns, crazy spending. Now let me remind you that most of what could be considered a lockdown of COVID happened while Donald Trump was in his first term. They love to talk about Biden lockdowns, but Biden inherited guidelines from Trump. And they were loosened during the Biden presidency. It is just a completely rewritten version of history. Finally, Stephen Miller weighing in on the scrapped 60 minutes piece about Donald Trump's deportation fiasco.

And you have these 60 minute producers who are living in comfort and security in their West End contos trying to make their contos. Us feel sympathetic for these monsters? Have you seen the tattoos, the face tattoos, the body tattoos on these killers? Would one 60 minutes producer or writer agree to spend 30 minutes? I'll make a deal. We will pick someone at random that we sent to see caught. a random lottery drawing and they will spend one day overnight in your apartment.

Who was taking that deal at 60 minutes? Nobody. And of course, what does that matter? I don't want to spend the night in Seacot, but I could still identify whether Trump's deportation program is illegal or immoral or unethical. I can still analyze whether this is making the U.S. safer or not. The fact that I wouldn't want to go to Seacot and let a random inmate. mate, live in my house, doesn't really change anything about the truth of the 60 minutes statement.

Miller is one of the most depraved and disgusting. And he confidently yells as if how dare anyone challenge anything I say, how are you so stupid? You don't already believe everything I'm saying. And there is nothing there. I don't know that there's, there is anyone as morally or substantively vapid as Miller working for Trump. And unfortunately, because he yells and he looks confident, he is very, very effective. You go back to the Fox audience after watching this. I guarantee you at the 30,000 foot level, they would go, yeah, he was really strong. At the micro level, could they actually explain and

defend the things that Miller is saying? I don't think so. And it's because it's the vibe rather than the substance. And it is absolutely, it's the Grinch that stole Christmas. We've got a great show for you today. Glad you're here. The David Packman Show is an audience supported program. And the best, most direct way to support the show is by becoming a member at join packman.com. You'll get the daily bonus show, the daily commercial free show, and plenty of other great membership perks. Get the full experience by signing up at Joinpackman. packman.com. The David Packman show continues as we get ready to enter 2026 to be an independent, primarily

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We'll save you about 50%. Before the end of the year, there is still time. House Speaker Maga Mike Johnson is warning Republicans that things can get pretty bad. If Republicans lose the House in 2026. And as people of the left, my suggestion is that we see this message from Mike Johnson as an aspirational message. For him, it's a word of caution. For us, it's aspirational.

And he explained at a turning point USA event that if indeed they lose the house in 2026, not only is Trump going to accomplish nothing, nothing in the last two years of his presidency, he's going to get himself impeached. Now, remember that there is a difference between impeached and convicted. And I'm going to delve into that in a moment. Listen to Maga Mike Johnson. Everything, as has been said here, everything is on the line in the midterms of 2026. And we have much more to do. But if we lose the House majority, the radical left, as you've already heard, is going to impeach President Trump. They're going to create absolute chaos. We cannot let that happen. And of course, by the radical left, he means people who breathe oxygen. Now, think,

Think about what this actually means. The sitting Speaker of the House is saying to his own base, Trump's presidency is so fragile. It's so fragile politically. It's so fragile legally that the only thing keeping impeachment off the table is raw partisan control of Congress. It's not innocence that will prevent Trump from getting impeached. It's not merit. It's not governing well.

It's just a question of how many Republicans are in the House and how many Democrats are in the House. This wasn't said to Democrats or the media. The message from Maga Mike Johnson here at the Turning Point USA event was to Trump's own supporters and it's a fear tactic. And notice the framing. Johnson doesn't say Democrats will abuse power. He does use the term radical that left.

Okay. So that's the pejorative for sure. But he says they are going to do it. He doesn't argue that there's no basis for impeachment. It's simply if they get the votes, Democrats are going to do it. It's not really a defense. Really, it's more of an admission than a defense as I see it. Now, Johnson is also reacting to a very tangible and real political problem for this party.

Trump's approval rating is in the toilet. Polling shows something like two thirds of Americans think the country's on the wrong track. CNN's data analysts are saying that if those numbers hold, Republicans would indeed lose the house. And Republicans, I think, know what happens next. Democrats are, some Democrats have already introduced articles of impeachment and there seem to be no shortage of reasons why Trump could be impeached. Now let's talk about impeachment itself.

Within a week of Trump's second term starting, I did a segment that many of you found quite compelling, which argued that just on the basis of his first seven days back in office, Donald Trump was worthy of impeachment. However, politically, I said it's not going to go anywhere because there are two parts to impeachment. Getting impeached is when the members of the House vote and say, yes, we are starting impeachment articles, impeachment proceedings against the president. That means you've been impeached. That doesn't mean you're removed from office.

After the House starts those, that process, there is a trial and it is the senators, the hundred senators who vote. Do we convict or do we acquit on impeachment? only if after the impeachment trial, senators vote to convict would a president be removed? And as I described at that point, and it's still the case today, even if Donald Trump were to be impeached by the House of Representatives, there is no way that with the current Senate balance or even the likely Senate balance, no matter what happens in November of 2026, there's really no way that he is going to be convicted.

And therefore, the question becomes, is it worth it? Is it worth going through an impeachment proceeding? the outcome of which is already known. My audience is divided on this. Some of you write to me and you say, David, it's not worth it. Impeaching him again for him to be acquitted is simply not worth it. There are others in my audience who say impeachment is a congressional responsibility. You don't say we will only impeach if we can get a conviction in the Senate. You impeach if the actions of the president justify impeachment and then you you let the cards fall where they may in a way i'm sympathetic to both to both views i uh don't want to waste time on another impeachment that will go nowhere

but i believe that impeachment is such a serious thing that if there is just cause for filing articles of impeachment the house of representatives should not make a political consideration as to what is likely to or probable or almost guaranteed to happen in the senate it should be impeachable offense means that we impeach. And I lean that way. So Maga Mike Johnson is sort of levying this warning at a time that Republicans really do need to hear it. We should see it as we need to make damn sure that we do take the house in 2026 away from these Republicans. Even if the impeachment justification is not titillating to you, we do not want Donald Trump to get a damn thing done those last two years of his presidency. Not only because the things he would try to do would be

terrible, but because getting nothing done for two years is likely to weaken Republicans in 2028's presidential run. That's my view right now. Let me know if you disagree. All right. Listen, some of the things that this administration is putting out in public, they are putting out because they must assume that you're dumb. They must assume that you're stupid.

They must assume that you were too incompetent to think through it for yourself. They wouldn't say some of these things if they believed you were smart. Let me give you an example. Here's Doug Bergam on Fox News. This is Donald Trump's secretary of the interior. He says wind energy sucks because if the wind isn't blowing, you get no energy. And that on the coldest days or the hottest days on the east coast, wind is only providing a small percentage of the total grid.

So you still need the rest of the power. Now this is a line that does get applause every time because it sounds like common sense. wind power, you need wind. If there's no wind, you got no power. It is misleading in every way that matters. Let me play the clip and then we will discuss it. And then the wind energy only works when the wind is blowing. And at times when we've needed the most in the along the east coast during the coldest days and the hottest days in the last year, we've had two percent of the entire grid being powered by by wind. You still need all the rest of the power. You still need all the base load and PJM, the grid operator that runs from DC to New York has been shut down over 20 gigawatts

of baseload in the last five years. So if people are worried about an electricity crisis, it was self-made by the same people that support offshore wind. The people that support offshore wind are the ones that were campaigning as special interest to shut down all the baseload. But move to a different part of the country and you'll find out that electricity prices, like in my home state, or one third that they are the price in New England. Or, and so again, it can be accomplished. We're with under President Trump's policies, which is a pro-energy policy, you can have reliable, secure American-made affordable energy.

All right. Okay. So the point is no wind, no power. It's true on some superficial level that wind only generates electricity when the wind blows. You need the wind to blow to spin the turbine. And that's how you generate electricity. Like, congrats. Okay. That's not really a revelation.

Everybody knows this, including the people who run power grids. The grid is not built around one power source working 100% of the time. Coal plants sometimes go offline. Gas plants sometimes fail. Nuclear plants could shut down for maintenance. Transmission lines can go down in storms. The point of a grid is that it's diversified. And number two, the, you know,

on the hottest and the coldest days, wind only provided 2% of the total energy requirement. It's a cherry pick. You might be saying, why is he only talking about the coldest and the hottest days? On extreme peak days, every grid, every grid leans on the sources that you can ramp up really quickly. Like, for example, gas as an example, as one instance of that. And whether you have wind or not, that would always be the case. Wind is not at this point supposed to carry the entire grid on every hour of the year,

especially the coldest or hottest days of the year. It's sort of like saying, you know, the seatbelt is kind of pointless because in the worst car crashes, it's really the airbags that are saving you. Forget for a moment that without the seatbelt, the airbag wouldn't work nearly as well because you could be hurled around the car. Like put that aside for it. But it's like saying forget about the seatbelt because it's really the airbags that on the serious crashes that we, we need. It's a dumb comparison. Now, number three, the part that they never mention is that wind power reduces fuel, use every other day of the year. When wind is generating, gas plants burn less. Coal plants can ramp down. Wholesale electricity prices drop. Emissions fall. And the best example of this is Texas,

which I don't think Doug Bergam wants you to know. Texas leads the country in wind generation. And despite what the right loves to imply, wind has saved Texas residents billions of dollars over the last decade. When Texas's grid failed in 2021, it wasn't because there was no wind. It was because the gas infrastructure froze. We covered it at the time. It was a disaster. Pipelines froze. Gas plants couldn't get fuel. The compressor stations froze. Wind did underperform that day. That's true. But gas failed completely and catastrophically. Number four, batteries. And they always forget about this when they go to the sun only does stuff during the day. Wind only does stuff on windy days.

Modern grids don't treat wind as use it or lose it. You combine wind with utility scale batteries, pumped hydro, demand response, power sharing. You do all of this stuff like California, Arizona, Nevada, parts of the Midwest do. And then you realize this argument they make could just as well apply to fossil fuels, but they never make it, right? Gas only works when the pipeline isn't frozen, when fuel prices don't spike. when geopolitics don't disrupt the supply. Coal only works when the trains are delivering the coal, when plants aren't down for maintenance, when cooling water is available during heat waves. The point is they are unfairly maligning wind. And similarly, they are doing everything they can to hurt wind

so that it works even more poorly. That's what this is really part of a bigger picture here. Bergam says, we've got to pause offshore wind. That's what this is really about. because Trump hates it. What next action did you want to tell us about this morning? Well, today we're sending notifications to the five large offshore wind projects that are under construction that their leases will be suspended due to national security concerns. During this time of suspension, we'll work with the companies to try to find a mitigation. But we've completed the work the President Trump has asked us to do.

The Department of War has come back conclusively that the issues related to these large offshore wind programs have create radar interference that creates a genuine risk for the U.S. particularly related to where they are in proximity to our East Coast population center. This is, I'm so sorry for using this word. This is bullshit. Okay. There is no serious evidence that offshore wind provides rather a national security threat. The Department of Defense has studied this.

Offshore wind projects get reviewed. They get mapped. They're coordinated. The idea that all of a sudden under Trump, the Department of the Interior has figured out, oh, radar interference and effect on shipping lanes and undersea cables means we can't do it. It is nonsense. This is about one thing. Trump has had a personal vendetta against windmills for decades.

He says windmills, wind turbines cause cancer. He says they kill all the birds. He says they ruined the view. He tried to block wind projects near some of his golf courses. This is only about one thing. And it's Trump hates wind turbines. There is no national security risk. They are doing everything they can to sabotage wind.

And unfortunately, they might get away with it. If you like this show, I would love for you to get my substack writing. Each day, I'll send you a rundown of what's on the show, what's happening, what matters, why it's free. No spam. Substack is also the only place where we own our data. So if we get censored on social media or on any platform, substack's going to be the only way I can tell you what is going on. Sign up now at David Pakman.substack.com. If you truly want to understand the sickness that has afflicted the Republican Party, notice that I'm not saying just Trump supporters. I'm not saying specifically MAGA, the sickness that has afflicted the Republican Party in 2025 as we enter

2026. I have for you today the absolute most disastrous poll I can ever recall seeing about the beliefs of a political group or a political movement. This is a study of Republican voters done by the Manhattan Institute, which is a conservative right-wing think tank. The study itself claims to be one of the most exhaustive studies to date, and I'm going to show you a list of beliefs held by the current Republican Party. Now, this is like the most important detail to understand. This includes all 2024 Trump voters, regardless of party registration. So if you're an independent who voted Trump in 2024, you're included in this study. And number two, all registered Republicans, even if you did not.

vote for Donald Trump. So this is not only Trump voters, which I believe makes the results even worse in terms of what it means about the movement and the party. So let's get into some of the beliefs. Fifty-one percent believe the 2020 election was hacked, whatever they mean by hacked. 41 percent don't believe that it was only al-Qaeda that carried out the 9-11 attacks, It's a deeply conspiratorial belief. 37% believe the Holocaust has been greatly exaggerated. 36% believe that the moon landing was fake. We never went to the moon.

It is a multi-country conspiracy. Oh, by the way, every time this comes up, I always kind of go back to, even if you can be convinced about nine out of ten elements of the moon landing into thinking that it didn't really happen, it's really important to consider that other countries, if they were able to expose that the U.S. didn't really go to the moon, would be very incentivized to do it. And so, in other words, the moon landing that was supposedly staged was staged well enough

to trick every other country beyond being able to prove that the U.S. didn't really do it. But crazy, okay? 36% of the current Republicans believe that the moon landing didn't really happen. And one third, one third, believed that childhood vaccines cause autism. As a reminder, that is a hypothesis, which mostly traces back to a study involved, study, what I'm even calling it? It's not even really a purported study by a first. former doctor Andrew Wakefield, who has lost his medical license involving, it was 11 or 12 kids,

brought to him specifically, and that study was retracted by the Lancet, and yet the idea persist. So one-third of Republicans in 2025 entering 2026 believe that childhood vaccines cause autism. All right. On racism and racist beliefs, 15% of the Republican Party say they are openly racist themselves. Okay, so you've got that's one group, 15%. Another 22% believe that while they are not themselves openly racist, they don't think the open racist should be canceled or excluded from the Republican Party. So you've got 37% of the Republican Party more than a third that says either they are racist or racist shouldn't be excluded. Similar numbers, by the way, on anti-Semitism.

Okay. On the tariffs, Trump's blanket tariffs on the world, 54% look at this. 54% believe the tariffs are a great thing and are working to bring manufacturing back to the United States. There is no evidence of that. There is no evidence that can be pointed to that suggests that that is the case.

So let's now zoom out and kind of give an overview. This is a shocking poll, not just because of the what people believe, but because of the numbers and how prevalent some of these beliefs are in the modern Republican Party. These are not the beliefs of some obscure telegram channel or some dark web message board of extremists or something like that. This is a major conservative think tank serving the Republican coalition of today that includes registered Republicans and everybody who voted Trump in 2024. And what it shows, unfortunately, is that conspiracy thinking is not at the edges of the party. It is baked into the core of

republicanism today. More than half of current Republicans believe the 2020 election was hacked, which that alone tells you that democratic legitimacy is gone. If you don't believe elections are real, then voting is meaningless. Losing is illegitimate. Violence, by the way, starts to feel justified. And that's a historical pattern. It's not hyperbole. And then it gets even worse. You know, you look at the numbers we just saw large chunks of the party, don't believe Al-Qaeda was alone in carrying out 9-11. They think the moon landing was fake. Vaccines cause autism. The Holocaust is exaggerated. This is like we're not talking about political disagreement. Now, hey, you know, Democrats on average think the top tax rate should be 42 percent,

and Republicans on average think it should be 22 percent, and it's a political disagreement, We find some kind of middle ground. That is not what this is at all. This is a rejection of reality itself. In my book, The Echo Machine, I have a chapter about we no longer agree about what facts are. And the contrast is, it used to be that we don't agree about the facts. We no longer agree about what facts are. What sort of statement counts as a statement of fact versus a statement of opinion.

And you can't have a policy debate with people who seem to be. to think that matters of fact are actually just a question of your opinion. Notice something else here. This is not only Trump voters. My guess, and I don't know, this is just, it's a hypothesis. If you only survey Trump voters, the numbers might be even wackier, but this includes Trump voters and non-Trump Republicans as well, who are registered Republicans. And so those beliefs even exist there. The racism data is pretty revealing, you know, 15% say, I'm openly racist. 22% say racism is good enough that it shouldn't disqualify you from the party.

That tells you why Republicans keep nominating extremists, and then they act confused when voters notice. They don't police racism because a huge chunk of the coalition doesn't think it's a problem. 15% say, I'm racist. 22% say the racists are okay being part of the coalition. Same story with anti-Semitism. And then you get the tariffs, where more than half of Republicans. believe Trump's tariffs are working, they're bringing manufacturing back. There's just no evidence

of any of that. And it connects that there's a link here between the conspiracy thinking and believing that the tariffs are working, which is there's no evidence for the conspiracy stuff and there's no evidence for the tariffs working. But if you can be convinced that the moon landing was fake, the 2020 election was hacked, whatever, you are going to be very easy to convince that the tariffs are actually somehow helping you. So the through line of the... this poll, which is very, very disturbing, is it's not just misinformation that is spreading like wildfire in the Republican Party. It's a, I don't even know, it's an epistemic collapse, a political movement that is not only divorced from the facts, it doesn't even really have

self-correcting mechanisms for truth and for accountability. And it matters in a bunch of different ways, in a practical sense for us, and I should do another TikTok live soon where I talk to some of the people with these beliefs, it matters for us because we have to acknowledge we can't compromise with a party that thinks reality is optional, you know? Could you go back to my tax rate example? You think the tax rate should be 22? I think it should be 42. So we go, all right, how about 32 and we figure out some other aspects of this that would be acceptable. If it's like, listen, you think vaccines cause autism, I look and I find no evidence vaccines cause autism, how do we compromise on that. Some of them maybe say, I don't know how you compromise with that. It just doesn't

make any sense. So this is a real problem, obviously for the Republican Party, but it's a bigger problem for everybody outside of it who now has to deal with these people. They vote, they donate, they have beliefs, they have money, they have influence. What on earth do we do? Because we can't just go around them. There's too many tens of millions of them to say, they don't matter. We will just ignore them. All right, I have a moment for you. That's one of these moments where you kind of don't know how to react because it sounds like a joke, it sounds like a parody, it sounds like satire. Tucker Carlson, again, went up on stage, grabbed a microphone, calmly explained that while he was sleeping, a demon attacked him. I don't mean a metaphorical demon. I don't mean the

idea of a demonic presence in American politics or some kind of, we are talking about physically attacked where he had claw marks and his ribs were bleeding and he presents it as a true story. Now, I know some of you might say, David, hasn't he said this before? And yes, he has. We're going to get to that. Let's first listen to Tucker's very serious, serious story. And then I go to bed with my wife and four dogs who sleep in the bed. My wife said four children. My dogs are hunting dogs.

All five of them wake up like that. Like, they, you know, they are, we have no home invaders in my house. I wake up at 2.30 in the morning. I checked my, and I couldn't breathe at all. My throat was closed. It wasn't like I was apnea or was strong as I couldn't breathe. So I get up. I stand in the doorway of our bedroom, and I'm like, wow, I'm dying.

I can feel myself starting to gray out. And then I started walking in the backyard, and then it slowly came back. Like, my throat kind of opened up a little bit. I was like really weirded out. I walked back in and my wife wakes up. She goes, what is going on? I said, I don't know. I can't breathe.

I feel better now. and all of a sudden I had this horrible pain underneath my arms like on the side of my chest like bad I thought I'd been like ripped with a knife or something it just was very intense so I go into the bathroom I flip on the light and I have claw marks

on both sides now he said he was in bed with his four dogs if I wake up with claw marks and there's four dogs in the bed my first instinct is one of the dogs clawed me that is not Tucker's instinct here on right and left side on my ribs and they're bleeding.

And they're claw marks. Four on either side. I put my fingers and don't fit my fingers. And I sleep on them. Was there anyone in the house that has claws? That's where. Oh, wait a second. Four dogs.

My side. So how could, by the way, if I, no one woke up. So I show my wife and she's like, oh my gosh. And then I have this like crazy intense desire to read the Bible. So I read the Bible and I pass out in like two minutes and I wake up on the next morning. I thought, man, did I have a wild dream? And then I see blood in my sheets and I go in the bathroom and I have these bloody marks. And my wife goes, I think you were attacked by some supernatural being.

And I was like trying to be logical about it. And was like, yeah. Now was his wife joking. Definitely was. And then I called one of my producers. He was like, oh, yeah, that's pretty common. I was like, what? And I've had a couple of others.

Why are people laughing? Like what is, if someone said this to me and I present them with, well, you were in the bed with dogs, dogs have claws and you believe that you were clawed, if they go, no, it was a demon, I'm starting to think of a psychiatric evaluation. But Megan Kelly laughs and the crowd laughs. This is not normal and it is not a joke. It's not satire. It's not a preacher speaking in metaphor. It's one of the most influential right-wing media figures in the country. Again, describing a supernatural assault as a real-world event.

Tucker has told the story before. It was on some kind of Christian. It's a channel called Christianity's. I'll remind you of the prior version of the story from some time ago. The presence of evil is kick-starting people to wonder about the goods. What happened to me? That's what happened to you? And by the way, I should tell you the relevant, I'm so sorry to interrupt already.

The relevance here is, in this, you might think about it as, oh, Tucker's just cuckoo. But it's just like one story about demons, a demon attack. There is a connection they are trying to draw here to more broadly what is happening in the world, as they like to talk about it. And Tucker getting attacked by a demon is emblematic of and representative of what's happening in our world. Oh yeah, I had a direct experience with it. In the milieu of journalism or just... No, in my bed at night and I got attacked while I was asleep with my wife and four dogs in the bed

and mauled. Physically mauled. And a spiritual attack by a demon? Yeah, by a demon. Or by something unseen that left. Is that right? If you didn't know any better, you'd say this is like a joke of some kind.

claw marks on my sides on my... So they left physical mark. Oh, they're still there. Yeah, yeah. A year and a half ago. Was your wife terrified? I know you were. I wasn't. I was totally confused. I woke up and I couldn't breathe

and I thought I was going to suffocate and I walked around outside and then I walked in and my wife and dogs had not woken up and they're very light sleepers. And then I had these terrible pains on my rib cage and on my shoulder and I was just in my boxer shorts and I went and flipped on the light in the bathroom

and I had four claw marks All right. It's the same version of the story. Okay, same version of the story that he told with the Megan Kelly thing. So, you know, the same movement that believes the 2020 election was fake, vaccines cause autism, shadowy forces control the world. They also are using these sorts of stories as explanations for what is happening in our world right now. And the theme is, and this is not about ridiculing religious belief, I don't even think that this isn't really a religious belief necessarily, although he says, I felt compelled to read my Bible. If you abandon evidence-based thinking, demons are just one more step down the road. Like, it's actually a

relatively small deal that now he's talking about literal demons, given the totality of the movement that he is embraced. And notice, how it works psychologically. If you believe demons are attacking you in your sleep, your political enemies aren't just wrong, they're evil, right? I mean, like, compromise becomes impossible, violence starts to feel justified. This is how dehumanization happens. They sent a demon for me in my sleep, and I believe that it was who? Who's the scapegoat of the day? And so the reason that I think it's extra dangerous when it's Tucker Carlson is that when this is a guy, you know, at the 14th Street subway stop screaming about it, that guy has no influence.

This is someone with a huge influence that shapes millions of people's interpretation of the world. And so when he's talking like this, it's a personal anecdote, but it's the normalization of paranoia, supernatural explanations for reality. And it matters because movements don't need everybody to believe demons are real. They need enough people to stop insisting on evidence. And if nobody asks Tucker for evidence of this, then they don't ask Trump for evidence that the tariffs are working, etc. And I think you know how the, how that goes to the point where political losses become interpreted as demonic plots and journalists become agents of evil and courts become tools of dark forces we can't explain. So you can make a joke and you can also say it was probably just one of his four dogs.

but I believe that what's happening here is actually a real problem because ideological collapse turns inward and then it looks like this. A movement that has been rejecting facts for a really long time almost starts rejecting sanity itself. And in the second clip I played, the totally credulous reaction from whoever this guy is that's talking to him is part of how this all gets egged on.

And rather than someone going Tucker, you sound nuts. It was one of your dogs. The reaction from this other guy only fuels it. And then other people see it. And they go, well, everybody's acting like this is a normal and real thing. It must be. Real problem. I don't know how they get out of it.

But it's not going to help engage with these people on the basis of fact. That I can tell you. The David Packman Show is an audience supported. program and the best most direct way to support the show is by becoming a member at join packman.com. You'll get the daily bonus show, the daily commercial free show and plenty of other great membership perks. Get the full experience by signing up at join packman.com. Second to last. Oh, wait, no, wait, no, it's the last because it'll be January 2nd next Friday. last Friday feedback of the year.

It's just a normal Friday feedback. I don't want to oversell it. You can email us, info at David Pakman.com, leave comments, replies, platforms, TikTok, you know, the entire thing. We'll feature some of them on the show. We start with regular double from the subreddit, the David Pakman show subreddit, who says, disagree with David's blue expensive states because they are good talk today. He's right. Desirability drives a price.

but so too do Uber-low property taxes like they have in California, as well as impediments to construction like they have in California. Yes, red states are terrible, but the smartest thing we can all do is give them a shout-out when they do something right. Texas getting their revenues from property tax rather than income, for example, is a good thing. Austin's favorable development environment has been beneficial. North Carolina banning parking minimum statewide is huge. We should recognize it. At the same time, let's call a spade a spade and say California is expensive on purpose in a way that does not benefit society. Listen, all of these, you can debate every single aspect of this. I mean, you could argue that Texas getting revenues from property tax is good. Well,

high property taxes then lead to high rents as the property taxes are passed down by the landlords to the tenants. So I don't really know about that. You can micro-analyze anyone policy. The point I was making if you zoom way out is that productivity is higher in the blue states, income is higher in the blue states, innovation is higher in the blue states, healthcare quality and access is higher, education quality is higher, all these different things. And yes, they do cost more, but they don't just randomly cost more with no benefit. That is the point I was trying to make. And you can talk about property taxes or parking minimums or any of it. And I think that that's great. But it doesn't really change the point that I was trying to make. Michael Haskins wrote on Facebook,

it's not impossible to have high GDP growth when you have massive capital investments as we do. And a tariff policy that almost forces domestic manufacturing and production and a low Biden-era employability rate under 60%. Labor is there. Capital is coming. Low rates will arrive in 2026 and the land is available. So yes, not 25% annual GDP growth, but certainly 5% to 10% is very possible. Michael, I hate to break it to you, you're delusional, okay? First of all, the tariff policy that is forcing domestic and domestic manufacturing and production, it's not happening. There's no, not only that, even before Trump started his policy nonsense, we had hundreds of thousands of unfilled manufacturing jobs. The number of manufacturing jobs currently filled in the

United States is at a multi-year low. Trump's tariffs aren't doing any of that. And then when you say, oh, low rates are going to be here in 2026, rates may be lower in 2026 or higher, but you sound just like Trump saying the new health care plan will be signed into law in two weeks. And he's been saying that since July of 2020. So excuse me if I'm not moved by your argument. All right, hero firefighter on the subreddit argues that people who think the 2024 election was rigged are as illogical as people who think the 2020 election was rigged. And he goes on to say, I'm tired of seeing people say the 24 election was rigged. This is a baseless conspiracy theory with no realistic merit, which has been debunked by real news media. There is zero evidence of the

2024 election being rigged, and there is similarly no evidence of foul play in the 2020 election, Luanon nuts who say the 24 election was rigged are as crazy and stupid as QAnon nuts who believe the 2020 election was rigged. Well, listen, insults aside, when there were allegations made that the 2020 election was really won by Trump and stolen by Biden, I examined the alleged evidence and did not find it compelling. I believe Joe Biden won the 2020 election fair and square. when other parties, including the Election Truth Alliance, which I've interviewed on the show, argued that the 2024 election was rigged and stolen by Donald Trump and that the real winner was Kamala Harris, I examined their alleged evidence and did not find it compelling. Now, I know every time I talk about this, some of you write to me and you go, David, you're just not smart enough or good enough with statistical analyses to understand what they are arguing. Well, if I'm just too stupid to understand it, then I guess I'm a lost cause, but without the insults about people being crazy and stupid, I have not found any of the evidence about 2020 or 2024

dispositive in making me think, yes, it was stolen. I believe the rightful winner won both. Spruce Tree says about Trump's bruised hands supposedly from hands shaking. If your hand is bruised for like eight months from shaking hands, wouldn't you take a break from shaking hands? I mean, his hand was first seen bruised in early 2025, but he has given the same excuses months later. Wouldn't a rational person once they realize the hand is being bruised from shaking hands, you would stop shaking hands? This idiot just keeps slamming his bruised hand into other people's. You know, there's two things to it. This is one good point. If the handshaking is causing such bruises, maybe put a pause on it. But Sarah,

Matthews, Trump's own former deputy press secretary, who I had on the show last week, she made a really good point, which is that is an argument that runs counter to Trump's alpha status. Trump and the people around him love to say, this guy's the ultimate alpha. But if your hands are constantly bruised just from shaking other people's hands, don't you look flimsy? Don't you look weak? Don't you look fragile? And I thought that was a very good analysis from her. A lot of people reacting to producer Pat wearing sunglasses on a number of episodes of the bonus show last week. And yes, we explained producer Pat was dealing with an eye condition.

And for a period of time, he wore sunglasses. And I know that changes do throw off a lot of people in the audience. And we try to do our best to keep things, you know, relatively the same. same. We don't want to upset anybody, but it was a disturbing image for some that Pat was wearing sunglasses last week, but also a welcome image for others. All right, Gianna Rocks says, so funny, does David know his party has a 10% approval rating? Can't wait to see Trump win again. Well, you know, Gianna, I don't know which party is my party. I've been an independent voter. I never been affiliated with any political party since I turned 18 and registered to vote. So when you say

my party, I don't know. But when you talk about Trump winning again, winning what? He can't run again. You're not one of those three-term truthers, are you? Desiree Donne wrote in on Spotify and said about my story last week about Trump jerking in public where he jerked away. She says, please never use the words Trump and jerking in the same sentence again. Perhaps try jolting instead. I didn't know if I should laugh or be disgusted. Maybe I just have the humor of a middle schooler. Yikes.

Yeah, a lot of people did not appreciate the story about Trump jerking in public. But that's what he did. And I call balls and strikes here. And that was certainly what took place. Josephine Crease wrote on Spotify. You're preaching to the choir. The masses who need to hear this message are not listening to your podcasts. Listen, Josephine's not wrong.

We have long spoken about, and by we, I mean myself and other progressive content creators. We've spoken for a long time about the fact that we can only reach a certain portion of the population because a huge percentage of this country doesn't consume political content on purpose. They only see it if it happens to come across some other way. Now, what does this mean? It doesn't mean we stop doing the show. It means the more people that are in our audience, the more people we are deputizing and hopefully giving the information and ability

to go and talk to people in non-political settings. If my audience is 1,000, there's 1,000 people who can go out into the non-political world and say, hey, do you know how these tariffs are hurting us? Hey, do you know how this foreign policy is bad for us? If my audience goes from 1,000 to 100,000, now I've got 100,000 people who can go out and, quote, not preach to the choir, as you are pointing out. Now, one other thing, it is also the case that on a lot of these platforms, YouTube shorts are served to a ton of people that are not in the choir, right-wingers. TikTok videos are served to a ton of people that are right-winger. So I also kind of reject the notion that only left-winger see the show.

Yeah, the YouTube channel subscribers are mostly left-wingers. That's true. If you are subscribed to the show on Spotify or Apple podcast, for example, you're probably on the political left. But on the algorithmic platforms, it is getting dumped in to people's algorithms who are on the right. And just look at the comments. You can see from the angry, furious comments that people say, you're wrong. This is terrible. That's terrible. All right. That's the final Friday feedback of the year. we will be back Monday with a new show and a new bonus show. And then it's very quickly going to be 2026. The 26 midterms will be really up and running. And it's going to be an incredible year. So glad you're here with us for the final week of the year. Next week, I will see you then.