The Debaters - 20 Years of Debates: An Anniversary Special!

Episode Date: September 2, 2025

For the start of our 20th season, we're giving you a behind-the-scenes interview with our host Steve Patterson and Richard Side, creator of The Debaters! We'll be bringing you some of our most unforgettable debates, hearing from your favourite comedians, and getting the facts behind the funny!

We're in the midst of the dog days of summer. And it's called that because during this period, Sirius, the dog star rises with the sun in the morning. Not because it feels like several dogs are breathing their humid breath on you all the time. Can you tell he's a cat person? Hello, I'm Neil Kerkstel. And I'm Chris Houghton. We're the co-hosts of As It Happens.

But throughout the summer, some of our wonderful colleagues will be hosting in our place. We will still be bringing you conversations with people at the center of the day's major news stories here in Canada and throughout the world. You can listen to as it happens wherever you get your podcasts. This is a CBC podcast. Hey, Canada, it's our way or the sea to sky highway

from North Vancouver. It's the debaters. Welcome back to the debaters. And hello, North Van Goghers. And hello, North Van Goghers. Hello, Toronto, St. John's. Montreal. Brandon, Manitoba.

Saskatoon. Calgary. Charlottetown. We are here in Halifax. Mountain. Hello, Yellow Knight. Edmondson. Glace Bay.

Victoria. Hello, White Horse. Ottawa. Prince George. Are you with you, Regina? Hello, Winnipeg. Hello, Canada. And welcome back to the debaters.

Hi, everyone. Nicole Calendar here. You might know my voice from the start of the show, and I've been working as a producer on the debaters since the 12th season. This September marks the start of our 20th season, and we thought, as a little treat, we'd pull back the curtain and give you a little peek behind the scenes of how we got here and all we've learned over the years. With me today is the creator of the show, Richard's side. Richard is a writer, performer, and in addition to creating the debaters, he was also a producer for the show's first 12 seasons. Hi, Richard. Hello, Nicole.

And I'm also joined today by the host of the debaters, Steve Patterson. Steve is an accomplished stand-up comedian, host, and published writer. Hi, Steve. Hi, friend. Pleasure to be here. It's nice to have you doing some voice work. I like it. Thank you.

I'm missing the gavel and the bell, though, so I feel less authoritative. All right, well, let's start off the whole reason why we're here today, the 20th season of the debaters. So for both of you, I'd love to know how you're feeling about this milestone. sure I'll start with you. Well, I'm feeling very grateful, I guess. I mean, it's just, I feel very lucky, actually, that it's still going strong. So, you know, kudos to the successive groups of teams and CBC people who've kept it going all these years. I'm trying to remember some names. I certainly don't want to leave anybody out. Tom Anico, our first producers taught Elvidge and Dagmar Kafunkenon, the funnest name to say in radio, Philip Ditchburn.

Anna Bonikovsky, of course, Tracy Rideout, and you, of course, Nicole, and Josh Bailey, Lee Pitts, and Chloe Edbrook, and all the people behind the scenes. I mean, so grateful Graham Clark, Gary Jones, Dean Jenkinson. I mean, it's a testament to just the quality of people involved in the show. So very grateful for that. And the fans, very grateful for the fans. I like that Richard named names.

You know, it's been a, it's an amazing format that I'll be very honest. I didn't think we would still be going, you know, 20 years into something. This is a gig that I'm very appreciative of. And if it were, I think the rule of thumb is you multiply by, you know, 10 or something for what it would be in American success as Canadian entertainment. So I'm in my 200 year of American entertainment. And it's pretty amazing. I still remember getting the call.

How'd you like to host the debaters? And I said, this is going to be a great year of work. Incidentally, it's 10 times. when you calculate the money as well, Steve. Trying not to bring that up. Going off that origin, you know, Richard, where did the idea for the debaters come from in the first place?

Yeah, Richard. Yeah, of all people, I should know, if I can remember. Actually, I'd been working in semiscripted formats for stage, principally, you know, comedy formats, audience interaction. And we were always experimenting like talk shows, game shows, murder mysteries, sitcoms.

I guess I was watching stand-ups on TV and realized, yeah, in front of the curtain, in front of the brick wall, maybe there's a format that might engage them in some of the ways that I'd learned working with improvisers. So that was certainly a main part of the inspiration. There's so many great comedians in the country, too. And we just feel very proud that we've created this thing where they get together. And I think early on, this is like, oh, I work alone. I'm a comic.

They get on stage and they, you know, and it's like, hey, this thing was made for me. And it's like, yeah, it was. And then all the work they do, this collaboration and the excitement. It's something I think that we really pioneered to create community. Yeah. And it's just such a great format that's worked over the years. And I mean, 20 seasons, it's a lot of different. debates for both of you? Are there any ones that really stand out? The first one that comes to

mind for some reason that for me personally, and we've had so many great debates over the years, but we did one in the Glenn Gould studio in an early season, and it was Sean Cullen versus Dave Hempstead. It was just pie versus cake. And for whatever reason, the energy in that room for a debate that shouldn't have mattered really to anybody it was it just people took on took on sides it was like a rally

and it was so well done and Sean Cullen was legitimately so angry that he that he lost that he ripped the set down which the set at the time was just a banner behind stick let me tell you something about your cake and all this trickery and standing up that's all it's for

looking at it comes out all dollied up and prettyed up and everyone gathers around and says Look at the cake. Ooh, look at the cake. And as soon as it's got, everyone takes off because nobody cares what happens. What's inside a cake? Good point.

Here's one. It's no time consuming to make a proper pie. Oh, Granny, where is she? Down in the basement. We've chained her to the furnace where she's making pies for Thanksgiving. When will you let the old woman live her life? Where does she get some time?

by applause who thinks that Sean's facts and funny should take the cake Sean Cullen everybody

Sean is now destroying our set so for reasons of vandalism the winner is David Hempstead

for Pye and from then on we did worry that he might do it again there was always like oh is he going to

tear down then we got a better set than the stakes were higher You know, I was just going over in my mind some of the ones that stuck out. And there was one with Deb Kimmett and Mike Wilmot. And it was camping.

But Mike had been camping. So he basically got in his car or whatever and drove from the campsite, smelling of campfire to do the debate, which he, of course, had a lot of passion for. So there was something about the realism. And then Deb just went on against camping. And you could see that Mike Wilmot was very passionate about it. Camping is good for the soul. Culture is the world over.

I remember my father taking me to Algonquin Park when I was a child. We were both staring up at the night sky, seeing the different swirls of color from distant galaxies. And my dad turned to me and said, Mike, in the overall concept of everything, I'm not sure what he meant by that. To this day, I'm not sure if he knew what he meant by that. But if you knew my father,

that was the deepest thought. we ever had. Personally, I gave camping the college try excerpts from my diaries, if you will. Age seven, we picked gray ash off our marshmallows. Dad lit the barbecue with starter fluid, and mom said to stop bawling, my eyebrows will grow back. I will say one more. Eric Peterson, again, with Sean Cullen debating William Shatner. For fans who haven't heard it yet, the William Shatner debate was, is William Shatner,

the greatest actor of all time. And you have Sean Cullen arguing for and Eric Peterson arguing against. This was one that, that again, people took such a vested interest in. And, you know, really, it felt like we had really discovered, discovered something, discovered a national nerve with that one. Another dimension, actually, for the audience, too. It just kind of lifted off and then it just kept going and going and the laughs and the laughs and the laughs and the chaos. And there was no way to stop it, really. There's no way to stop Eric Peterson, that's for sure.

If he wants to answer one question that should be one word in a full Shakespearean monologue, he let him go. Shatner and fellow Canadian Lorne Green appeared together in The Bastard. What is The Bastard? This is an episode, a single episode that was shown both on Bonanza and Star Trek. It's the only known example of one episode that could be used in two different series. We had Bonanza, a Western set in the past, and the same episode showing in Star Trek, science fiction set in the future. Ben Cartwright sitting with his three sons.

when suddenly William Shatner appears. Papa Ben sends Adam to get him some clothes, so he's not in his pajamas. And it turns out that Kirk is the illegitimate son of Ben Cartwright. Therefore, the episode is called The Bastard. Verses ones, I always like John Steinberg. He's a master of taking. the most absurd tangents, and then somehow pouring them into the logic and making a point.

And so there's apples versus oranges, which was against David Pride, another very clever writer. And I just, that one really stands out. They say an apple a day keeps the doctor away. But your goal shouldn't be to keep doctors away. People were getting sick way before doctors. If this was a debate about produce that keeps things away, I would have chosen garlic. David?

Well, I think the point is not that it makes sense to keep, but it's just, uh... Good start? No, it's, uh, just the fact that we use the apples and all these expressions, because it's such a positive thing. Another thing is the apple of your eye. I love the apple of my eye. Nobody loves the orange of their eye. That's because if you have an orange of your eye,

that's caused by low levels of ferretin in the bloodstream. It's called hemochromatosis. A doctor told me that at a party because I didn't have any apples to keep them away. So I'm going to bring this one up to, I'm sure remember, Aisha Brown. Yeah. Very good.

Her and Arthur were debating whether one should punch up, whether comedians should punch up. And it was a debate where the two of them turned against you, Steve. Yes, they did. It became a debate about your white privilege, I remember, and the land rover that you obviously drove, spraying puddle water on passerspot. Your topic is about jokes. Should comedians always punch up? Should comedians only make fun of privileged people, like celebrities or politicians,

or is it okay to punch down and take shots at those who are not as powerful? Arthur, you have two minutes, starting now. Arthur Simeon. Punching up is brave. It helps question the state. a score. For example, why does this average-looking white man get to sit in the middle with a gavel while two gorgeous black people grove for his points and validation? See, I can pick on Steve

because he has so much money and so much talent that his average-loving. looks won't be hurt. Punching down comedy is like Steve driving his high-end range rover through a puddle and splashing muddy urine-infested water on people waiting at the bus stop. Is it illegal? No.

Is it a true story? Yes. I'm for punching down because it's unfair that a newbie and queen can take shots at our delightful host Steve Patterson, but he's not allowed to crack wise about me in return. Why? Because Steve owns a cottage? Because... Because Steve eats lobster every day? Because Steve has great grandparents who may have owned mine? Ridiculous! Did you know Canadian news is still banned on Instagram and Facebook?

And this August will mark two years since that ban began. So if you can't trust the algorithm to keep you updated, trust World Report instead. I'm John Northcott. I'm Marcia Young. And we want to unblock you from the news that matters most. Give us 10 minutes every morning and we'll give you the biggest stories happening in Canada and around the world. You can find and follow World Report wherever you get your podcasts. The debaters records in front of live theater audiences across Canada.

And Richard, I'm wondering, did you always envision this as a touring show? That was part of the initial kind of vision of it for sure. But more, it was a budgetary necessity. I mean, we needed to go where the comics were. We were in Vancouver. I always wanted to have a show based in Vancouver. And the number of comics back then, nothing like the number of comics out there. certainly in Vancouver, across the country now.

So we had to go where the comics were. But it's also part of the, I think we had five pillars of what the show stood for meant to achieve, and that was sort of regional diversity. And yeah, it's just a great, wonderful aspect of the show to travel to all parts of Canada and reflect Canada. And then just sort of funnel it all back into the show

and then out to Canadians, it's been a real great joy for us to do that. What do you think the show gains by taping in different locations? as compared to, you know, if we just taped in one studio in one location. You know, it's an event. It's, uh, when we go to places like Yellowknife or Victoria's been, everywhere we go has been very kind to us, I think.

And the Winnipeg festivals become our de facto festival home. And people trust the show. They trust the, the, the comedians want to do the show. And, uh, it's like a, a one night festival. There's so many different comedians. voices on stage. And you just, there's nothing else like it. And behind the scenes, we're trying to pour in jokes or premise or whatever about the local community. We're trying to pour in in the firing lines and in the, certainly in the welcome joke that Steve does and all the continuity

facts, little tidbits. So we can really make it for the audience feel like they're connected to it and we've made it theirs. I never thought we would have this as a debate topic, but you've driven us to this, Yellowknife. Your topic is the dump. The dump. Is it a great outing for the whole family? Your local dump here in Yellowknife made the news when somebody discovered a large pile of steel-toed work boots on the property. It was described as kind of like a footwear, a nookshook.

Now, a stone anookshook is a landmark built to say, we were here. But a boot, Anukshook says, we were here. Now we're somewhere else in our socks. Let's see these two put the boots to this topic. So, whereas the landfill is a place of valuable treasures and fascinating trash, be it resolved. There is no better outing for the whole family than a trip to the dump. It's time now for the firing line.

In my hand, I have a list of questions on going. to the dump, brought to you by recycling. Makes sense? Recycling. When you let your kid pick out a bike at the dump. All right, here we go. What clever nickname have locals given to the Yellowknife dump? Kate Davis.

The pickup. Otherwise known as plenty of trash. I will give you three quarters of a point. Don Kelly. They've nicknamed the dump the I don't even have a dollar store. That's not that. It's pretty good.

Two and a half points. Good answer. The actual answer, as most people here know, is Waikia. Why Kia? IKEA. That's awesome. I don't.

Do not eat the meatballs. Controversial follow-up. Are there any locations you both have found that get the most fired up or really stick out for you? Newfoundland tapings are always wonderful. It's like going to another country in a way. There's a different language, different culture. Different time zone. It's being ahead of everybody. So there's pressure performing in Newfoundland. There's a good chance 75 to 80% of the crowd could probably tell funnier stories than any of the comics on the show. I love all our towns. I feel bad pointing out some and not others. I just, I really like to be able to do the political show

opens in Ottawa because they they're down with it. But Winnipeg is also our festival home every year. And, you know, it's, I think of all the different places we've taped in Winnipeg. Oh my God. I'm still the same. But it's, we've moved around a lot

in Winnipeg, but we always are there and we're generally competing with playoff hockey. Yeah. Debaters, your topic is one that should raise some questions. Winnipeg. Is it the best place to raise a family? Right out of the date.

In 2023, the Globe and Mail ranked Winnipeg as the most livable city in Canada to raise kids. Yes. Personally, I agree that Winnipeg is the best place to be born in because back in 2006, this very show was born in this very city. Now, before every Canadian rushes to move here, and there is a threat of that. Here she is to take this city down a Winnipeg or two. It's Laura Ray. I've been here 30 years. I came here from Toronto.

Thank you. We brought a two-year-old child and raised. raised her here. She's 32 years old now, and every day she still wakes up crying. And there are little big city moments that keep my daughter sane. Playoff disappointment. Might not reach maple leaf proportions, but the jets choke in their own adorable way. Is there a taping that's particularly memorable. And, you know, whether it's travel chaos or it's a city, it was our first time taping in. Remember in Ottawa, we had bad weather, and Graham Kay couldn't make his flight, or it was late.

And so Ron Sparks had to debate himself, or at least this is what we decided. It was an executive decision. He's going to debate himself. Everybody's on board. And so through the whole thing, Ron is debating himself and then running across the stage to hit the other. So he would give these pointed questions that were very long. And then he'd run across the stage to the other lectern and then give a one word answer. Yeah.

And then run back. I had to stop him from doing that because I literally thought. he was going to have a heart attack running back before. It's time now for the bare knuckle round. I am looking forward to this. We're asking if the end

is near, so if you want a nuclear reaction, be a pain in the asteroid while paying apocalypse service to the topic. I'm getting tired of these puns too, so let's start

this ridiculous exercise It's right now. How can my opponent argue climate change is no big deal on a night when a freak storm prevented him from even making it here. Oh, good point. Good point. What do you say to that, other Ron Spock's who really is going

from left to right across the stage? I'm sorry, can you please repeat the question? Oh, that's... Sorry, I didn't hear you. That's very... That is inconsiderate speak clearly. I said, how can my opponent argue climate change? changes no big deal on a night

when a freak storm prevented him from even making it here. And I'm pretty sure you heard me just fine. Okay. All right. Let's go back to Other Ron now, now that he's heard the question. How dare you suggest? Graham didn't do everything he could to make it back here to his beloved

hometown of Ottawa. Yeah, I'm sure Graham tried his best, and now we'll go to... Ha! Okay, now Ron Sparks just laughs in his face there. We go back to Other Ron. What do you mean? Ha! Oh, now they're just, now they're laughing back and forth at each other. Just stay out of this, Steve.

All right, that's the bare knuckle round, everybody. Oh, yeah. For both of you, if you see a debate falling apart or it's going one-sided, is there any advice you can offer to the comic to save your side? Admit defeat and fall upon your sword. Some of the funniest ones are the ones. where the person early on realizes there's no way. And this audience is turning on me.

So I'm going down with, you know, some level of glory by, you know, just playing the heel and, yeah, taking your lumps. And the other thing is like, even if they turn against you, they might vote for you as the winner of the audience. Derek Sagan debating that Toronto is overrated in Toronto and just going hard on Toronto. And they, of course, made him the victor. Toronto, you represent Canada around the world because you're the only city that most non-Canadian know. And you call in the army when it's snow? This is Canada. That too, it's all that people outside Canada know about us. We get snow.

In Quebec, the ice store knockout electricity to 2 million homes. Did we call in the army? No, we called in sit to work and drag beer for eight days. But all that said, Toronto, I've been a little bit harsh with you. Anything Canadian is still better than anywhere else. So you're still the most hate city in the country. But in true Toronto style, embrace that. You're the best at something.

And until you become American, you may be our big, fat, greedy, soulless cousin. But you're our big fat, great, great. the soul of causes. Nice job. See what the crowd is. We prefer Montreal or Derek Segan's Tio taunting. Derek Segan.

Even Toronto hates Toronto. All right, well, we're on the last question. As we go into the 20th season, of course, there's still a lot we haven't done. Is there a dream debate he'd like to see? Well, you know, you did the topic that I really love, which is silence is golden, but I had my heart set that it was going to be argued by a mime. And this is the, this to me, would have been the ultimate deconstruct, Steve, it's all on you. What is the mind? He's in a box. He looks like he's trapped. He's saying that this is a box of logic that he cannot get out.

I really think, I like the idea of having something so physical. It has no business on radio. And yet, you know, so I'll give that. thought. I'll give that. I do like that. I'm a fan of, you know, I think we've only done it once where we had ketchup versus mustard and then Graham Clark came in as relish. I love the idea of just an extra element to the head-to-head debate. And deconstruction to like the time that Paul Meyerhawk, was it was Graham too, where the idea was, you're debating pizza, is it the best ever? And then they both got the same side. So they were both four pizza and the wind will be the one who argues best four pieces.

So I like any of these ideas that deconstruct the thing. So, whereas pizza is convenient, delicious, and nutritious, be it resolved that it's the greatest meal of all time. We have the perfect man to argue this. Paul, you have two minutes, please, starting now. Thank you very much, Lord. Hold on a second. I was told I'm arguing for pizza.

What? I was told I'm arguing for pizza. I'm arguing for, I'm arguing for, a positive pizza. What's happened? Richard, what's happening? Richard's coming out here. It looks like I accidentally got them both arguing. Four.

Maybe just get them both argue four. They will both argue for pizza, and you guys will vote who you think is more for pizza. Well, Richard and Steve. This was just so much fun, and it was such a special treat to look back and reflect on the debaters over these past two decades. So thank you both for taking the time to talk, and I'll see you around. Thanks, guys. Thank you, Nicole. See ya.

And finally, I want to say a big thank you to our audience for listening to all our episodes over these past years and coming out to our live tapings. We couldn't have done these debates without you, especially since you are the real judge. And we hope you enjoy our upcoming season, which kicks off on September 4th. And now, I'll leave you with a few debaters you know and love, who wanted to say a few words about our show's 20th season. Thanks again for listening. Hey there, debaters fans. This is Derek Senging. Probably if you know me, you probably know me because of this wonderful show that Richard Sight create.

Steve is the best at this job. I wish the debaters 20 more years. I mean, that's hopeful thinking for Steve. but whatever, hey, for me too, let's be honest. This is Erica Sigurtsin, sending my heartfelt thanks and best wishes to the debaters. I've had so much fun over the last 20 years. Hey, everyone, this is Dawn Kelly. I remember my first ever debaters.

I was debating treaty rights with Simon Rakoff, and in fact, it was so long ago we might have actually been negotiating the treaty. Hi, it's me, Alverickert, and I have enjoyed every single time I've been on the stage. Not so much when I lose unfairly. always. But I do have such fun memories, even the COVID years when we were locked in the CBC and masked up. And I was debating the late great Tim Steves. Every single appearance is a highlight for me. So here's to 20 more. Hi, this is David Pride. I want to extend congratulations to the debaters and thank them for letting me express myself these past 20 years on issues I'm passionate about

hobbits, Muppets, digital piracy. Hi, my name is Brittany Lising. What a wonderful thing you've done for this country and the listeners and the comedians that you've just let develop taking rejection taking families on vacation wheel of fortune it's big daddy tas and it doesn't surprise me that it's reached 20 years and beyond and beyond my favorite thing making steve patterson laugh hate davis here i just want to say to everyone who listens to the debaters it's honestly being one of the highlights of my career being a part of this show DIY renovations, bringing back extinct species, French fries, coins. It's me, Ivan Decker.

Thank you to everybody that has worked on the show. Thank you to Steve for being hilarious. Thank you to the audience for being there. And even though you clap more for my opponent than me most of the time, I'm fine with it. I haven't lost any sleep about it at all. I remember my first appearance in 2018 when I thought my Japanese accented voice only belonged to local shows in Vancouver. but you let it travel across Canada. It's been deeply empowering.

Window seats, carry-on luggage, holiday decorations, the Canada Food Guide, Comic Book Heroes, Rain, and lastly, Darth Vader. This is Ali Hassan. All my thanks go to Richard's side. The OG, and the OG gave me this advice early on. I had lost three debates in a row, and I had said to him, God, I hope I win one of these someday.

And he said, Ali, it's not about winning or losing. Or losing? Did you have a good time? And I said, I did. He said, that's what matters. And that is the only reason for why I have lost 90% of my debates. Patrick Ledwell here from Prince Edward Island. I got to debate John Wing, one of my comedy heroes. And when he didn't think much of one of my comedy rebuttals, he said, Nice shirt.

My entire village fundraise to buy me this shirt, I said back. A burst of laughter and then Steve chimed in with, he's going on the radio. Better get him a new shirt. This is John Wing. I've done the show more than 25 times and we'll do it again in a heartbeat. All the best guys, congratulations on 20 years. Hi, this is Jan Karwana. I want to give a big, big thank you to Steve and everyone who works so hard to make this show so much fun. Thank you so much for giving us something to laugh about.

Hey, this is John Steinberg. I just want to say congratulations on 20 years of the debaters, especially the last 14 years, because those are the years that I'd been on it. I don't know about the first six. Those seem like dark years. This is Miles Anderson, your favorite cast member. It has been an honor to be a part of the program and help shape Canadian public policy through considered, measured debate, and of course, about 85,000 puns. This is Sunny Dollywall, wishing you guys another happy 20 years of making everybody laugh.

Hey, everybody, it's Simon King. I think my favorite part of the debaters was doing an impression of Steve Batterson for Steve on air without him knowing that I could do it. I think it confused him, and some of the people at home weren't prepared for it. It's Sid Beauxhall calling from Comox, B.C. As a comic, I listened to you guys. I raised my kids on the debaters. And for me to finally be on the debaters was a thrill of a lifetime for me in my career. Hi, local embarrassment Hunter Collins here.

I have a little inside debaters fact you listeners might not know about. Steve hosts every episode wearing a big sombrero. Honestly, it's what keeps me coming back. Happy 20 years, guys. This is comedian Hisham Kalati, wishing CBC the debaters a happy 20th birthday. Hey, Leonard Chan here. I've done the debaters a few times. But more importantly, in a time of deep division where it doesn't seem like anyone can agree on anything,

it is a shining example of how we should all be. resolving our differences, with rational arguments, joyous laughter, and Steve Patterson, chained to a podium. This is Oladada. Thank you so much for having me be a part of your rich history. Everybody made me feel welcome, even though I was the new kid on a block. Paul Meyer Hogg here, the Hog, as Steve likes to call me. Maybe I should use my Albertan accent the rest of the way in.

Just wanted to stop by, say a huge congratulations to all y'all, 20 years. Unreal. Come on. You guys are the McDavid's of CBC Radio. Hey there, I just wanted to congratulate Richard on the 20 years of the debaters. It is an amazing thing to get a show on the air, never mind to keep it for 20 years. And Steve Patterson, I tell him every time. He's the best man for the job. So good for you guys. This is James Manger. Resolved. CBC's The Debaters is the best thing ever broadcast in Canadian history.

The evidence? 20 years of hilarious debates, brilliant comedians, and me somehow being allowed on the show. I rest my case. Happy birthday the debaters. Here's to 20 more years of proving that Canadians can argue. The debaters is created by Richard's side. This week's bonus segment was produced by Nicole Callender, Rocheney-Neyer, Chloe Edbrook, and Lee Pitts, with technical production by James Porella. Special thanks to Emily Ferrier. And be sure to follow us on Instagram for information on upcoming tour dates

and access to bonus content. You can find us at at CBC debaters. For more CBC podcasts, go to cBC.ca slash podcasts.