The Debaters - Are massages the best? Does a dishwasher beat hand washing?

Episode Date: March 19, 2026

Everyone likes a massage, right? Emily Woods argues that we all knead one, but Ivan Decker says, “Can’t touch this!” Then, trouble bubbles up when we debate the best way to wash your dishes. Ryan Williams is Team Dishwasher and Sean Devlin is Team Hand Wash - which side are you on?Featuring: Emily Woods, Ivan Decker, Ryan Williams, and Sean Devlin.

Jacqueline Furland Smith, a 40-year-old former Canadian military trainer, moves to Costa Rica to follow her dreams, but in the summer of 2021, vanishes without a trace. How can a woman just go missing and us put out all that effort to find her, and she's still missing? I'm David Rigen, and this is Someone Knows Something, Season 10, the Jacqueline Furland Smith case. Available now on CBC Listen and wherever you get your podcasts.

This is a CBC podcast. Hey, Canada, we're ready to kick off with some comedy from Vancouver, BC, host of the FIFA World Cup. It's the debaters! The debaters where comedians fight with facts and funny, this audience picks the winner. Now here's a man who's always a header of the rest. Steve Batson. Hello, Canada.

To the debaters, we are back in our favorite home on the West Coast, Vancouver, BC. A city celebration. celebrating a special anniversary this year. It is 40 years since Expo 86. Does anyone here remember going to Expo 86? Listen to that. Wow. Congratulations.

And it's time to get your prostates checked. You too, ladies. One of the features from Expo 86 is the Skytrain Expo line, which looks great for 40, but it's got to stop trying to get the same attention as the younger Millennium Line, which thinks the Expo line is totally cringe.

No, that was cringe. All right, it's time to meet two debaters whose comedy never gets old. So, this comic bakes his own bread when he loafs around the house. It's Vancouver's Ivan Decker. Taking the stage to my left. Hi, everybody. Hi, Steve.

Hello, my friend. Nice to see you again. And this comic's unique way of mixing ingredients causes quite a stir. It's first-time debater, Emily Woods. Her debaters. Hello, Steve. Nice to see you.

Thanks for coming on. Thank you for having me. All right, friends, your topic is one that's sure to put the acupressure on. Massages. Are they really so great? Before we get into this, I'd like to point out that I'm pretty sure my wife, Nancy, pitched this topic.

So I'm surprised it isn't specifically. should CBC radio hosts give massages to their hardworking partner without having to be asked? I'm glad I'm not arguing against that, but if the pro side wins, feel free to rub it in. Time now for a debate that we hope hits all the right spots and no nerves. So, whereas they reduce stress, offer a calming environment, and have numerous health benefits, be it resolved that massages are the best. Emily, you're arguing for this, please. You have two minutes, starting now, Emily Woods.

Why do I get massages? I want to be touched. A woman who has never been in a long-term relationship. The one thing that I am lacking the most in my life is physical touch. Sure, I can go on some app, meet up with Tyler, and leave even more unsatisfied than I started. Or, I can book an appointment on. with a man named Michael.

I go into the clinic and the receptionist tells me, actually it's pronounced Mikhail. Because of course it is. And Mikhail will guide me into a small, dimly lit room with the scent of puchuli wafting along as I follow his bare feet. Mikhail makes me meditate with him for five minutes, which I did not ask for. He looks at me and very seriously says,

says, you are an incredibly damp person. Excuse me? But you know what? He's right. I am the damp woman. Then Mikhail turns to leave the room and says, please undress to your comfort level. And listen, when I get massages, I am fully naked and no one's called me a pervert yet.

Prepare for 55 minutes of true intimacy. Your partner could never get. could never give you. I'm being rubbed, I'm being caressed. He's checking in and making sure it feels good. I have to worry about looking at a fully naked, 30-year-old bald man and going, oh no, he looks like a giant baby.

It's just me and me Kyle's hands making magic. Just one man getting paid to absolutely rock my body. I am damp as hell. as hell. Listen, could this be a pro-sex work debate? Absolutely. One difference, this sexually charged experience was paid for 100% by my employee health benefits.

Ladies a gentleman, Emily Woods is pro massage, I think. I'm just lonely. And one of the biggest responses that we've ever had on this show was when you said it's covered by employee health benefits. So, excellent job. Emily Woods, you're off to a great start.

But now, here to tell us why he gives eight fingers and two thumbs down to massages. Let's hear from Ivan Decker. Having a massage is about as calming as riding on the sky train at rush hour. It's a lot of squeezing and heavy breathing. You never know exactly how many legs. layers to take off.

And when you're finished, parts of your body are sore that have never been sore before. It's a scam. As soon as you walk in, it starts with their calming music that sounds like a flute dying of asphyxiation. You walk to the desk.

They tell you to change. Go, put on a robe that looks like it perhaps was once soft. Now it's been laundered so much. With so little care, it feels like the green side of my dishwashing sponge. Is it time for my massage yet? No.

Fill out a long form. It's nonsensical questions. Oh, you're here for a massage? Hey, your dad ever had any surgeries? Here's a picture of a person. Try little circles where you'd like us to touch you. This form? They never look at the form.

If it's so professional, Professional, why have I never had the same massage twice? There's no script of things they're supposed to do. They're all just freewheeling back there. Just doing stuff till they feel like enough time has passed. Asking the same cliched questions, ooh, your muscles are so tight. Good. I like them that way.

Keeps them around my skeleton. Has anybody ever had the reverse? Your muscles are so loose. It's like dipping my hand in a tub of Greek yogurt back there. Five minutes of having your flesh jostled around by a stranger is not relaxing. The feeling you get at the end that euphoria is not relaxation, it's relief that this horrible experience has come to an end.

You can get that for free by just throwing yourself down a a steep hill. Oh, you want some pine smell to go along with that? Throw yourself down a hill in North Vancouver. Thank you. Ivan Decker, ladies and gentlemen. We got ourselves a good one, and it's time now for the bare knuckle round. We're debating whether massages are the best.

So get ready to really swede dish it out. Because that's what this audience needs. Remember that fortune favors the vertebrave. Don't take any shiazhu, starting now. Listen, Ivan, you're saying, what about all these layers? What about all these layers? Take them all off, baby? Let yourself be exposed for a bit.

But I did try out. I thought that all wellness was the same, and I dabbled in acupuncture. I learned not the same. I went in for an acupuncture appointment, removed all my clothing, got under the sheet. The man walked in and instantly ripped the whole shawl. and went, oh no.

He went, well, I mean, it's already out. I mean, there's nothing relaxing about the inconsistencies. I'm always worried if I'm, am I breathing the right amount? You ever have them go and lock the door partway through? That's weird. Why do they do that? I was like, did you forget or did I exhale too deeply? I don't know. That's where the magic happens.

It's the what if? What if, you know? Who knows? It could happen today. I didn't pay for it, but you never know. It's the experience. Look, I know. I'm sure Mikhail is a great guy. Somebody out there has to keep the natural deodorant market alive.

Still like the waiting. They try to do things. Like, sometimes, I went to a massage place once, and they were like, hey, would you like some tea before your massage? And I was like, oh, yeah, I'd love some tea. But can you make sure that it is so hot, that it would be impossible for me to take a sip before the massage starts.

I'd love to just hold something hot for 40 minutes. We get it, we get it. You hate massages? You're starting to sound like a bit of a massaginist. Nice. You know what, we're gonna call it. That's the bare knuckle round. Woo! Good points on both sides, but Emily,

getting a late punch in there. That was nice. And it's time now for the firing line. In my hand, I have a list of questions on massages brought to you by the most common complaint about Scottish massage therapists. Robbie Burns! Just bang on, just because you don't get it,

doesn't mean it's not funny. It's just bang on. The male clinic says, if you're unsure about a massage experience, don't be afraid to ask the therapist questions like, what is your training? How many sessions do you think I'll need? And what else?

Ivan. Do I take my underwear off? Yes or no. Incorrect, Ivan. Do not say that. Emily? You ready for round two? Two and a half points.

The answer we were looking for, which should appeal to this crowd. What's the cost? And is it covered by my insurance? That is the perfect CBC audience question. Vancouver's West End Wellness says, among the many benefits of massage, is it can help with what very common Canadian affliction?

Ivan? It can help recover circulation after flying economy on WestJet. That's a good one. That's a good one. We'll give that one. We don't care. We don't have sponsors. Vancouver's West End Wellness says, among the many benefits of massage, it can help with seasonal effective disorder.

That Canadian affliction, we also would have accepted knuckle toe. Whistler's Scandinave spa offers a variety of massages, including the Swedish, the deep tissue, and what else? Emily. Gloots! What now? It was not glutes? Good, good guess.

Ivan? It's the new massage. It's the Chinese electric massage, which is cheaper than a Tesla. That's good. One official point. It's the Swedish, the deep tissue, and the prenatal massage. Great.

Fetuses out there that have got a better chance of getting a massage at Whistler than I do. Registered massage therapist, Dora Jackson, says there are lots of reasons to dislike a massage session, including having a massage therapist who has what? Ivan? Leprosy. Oh, terrible, terrible, but good.

Two points. Emily Woods. Ugly. The answer is not a massage therapist who has ugly. No, that's not the answer we were looking for. The answer is, there are a lot of reasons to dislike a massage session, including a massage therapist who has long fingernails

that scratched you. Sometimes we give too much information in these answers. That is the firing line, everybody. We're getting close to voting time here at the Centennial Theater in North Van, but first here to tell us why he much prefers a completely hands-off approach to massages. Let's hear again from Ivan Decker. Look, I have nothing against the masseuses-Zusses of the world. I get it takes a lot of training to clang chunks of my body around in the dark.

My problem is, I want them to just make a decision. They always have all these questions. Is the pressure good? Where should I go? How's this? Anyone who has guided a new partner through the intricacies of your body can tell you, this is not something I would like to pay for.

You know how to do a massage? Do it. If you just want a hand on your body, might I suggest the age-old tactic of a rubber glove full of ground beef on the end of a long stick? Actually, you know what? With beef prices the way they are, I'm sure a massage would be treated.

cheaper. All right, thank you. Ivan Decker. Ivan Decker bringing the old meat stick back into his argument. Thanks, Ivan. Now, here to tell us why she believes massages are a well-oiled machine as far as she's concerned. Let's hear again from

Emily Woods. You would never expect it, but I worked at a spa for a long time. Me. I'm the face of wellness. 15-minute break of and I would go outside and I would smoke two cigarettes. You'd think you were going in the eucalyptus-scented sauna,

and it was just me outside blowing mentholz in. You'd walk into the spa, and it's me behind the desk saying, Hey, welcome to the spa! Can be a wellness girl. Anyone can. So to you all, I say, self-care is not a privilege, it's a right. And I'm here today to do you today, to defend that right, especially if you are lonely like me.

And one day, maybe I won't be so lonely, and I can achieve the ultimate dream, a couple's massage. Thank you. Emily Woods. Yes. Emily Woods is pro-massage and thinks you should be too.

Ivan is against. Let's see what this North Van audience has decided by applause when it came to Emily's massage musings. How many of you had some skin in the game, Emily Woods? And how many of you agreed with Ivan's argument about being RMTed off by massage's Ivan Decker? You know what? It's too close to call to me. We're going to call it inconclusive.

It's a tie. You're listening to CBC's The Debaters. Want access to bonus content and information on upcoming tour dates, then be sure to follow us on Instagram. You can find us at at CBC debaters. Hi, I'm Jamie Poisson and I host the Daily News podcast, Front Burner, and lately I'll see a story about, I don't know, political corruption or something and think during a normal time, we'd be talking about this for weeks. But then it's almost immediately overwhelmed by something else.

On Front Burner, we are trying to pull lots of story threads together so that you don't lose the plot. So you can learn how all these threads fit together. Follow Front Burner wherever you. you get your podcasts. Ladies and gentlemen, I have just one more question. Are you ready for your next pair of debaters? Sounds like a yes to me, Canada.

This comic dreams of dunking a basketball from center court, but knows that's really wishful sinking. It's Vancouver's Ryan Williams. Ryan Williams. There he is. Looking good, my friend. Ryan taking the stage to my right. Well, see.

Hello, my friend. Welcome back. And when this comic writes jokes, he likes to put the devil in the details. It's Sean Devlin. Sean Devlin. Coming out to my left. Hi, Sean. Hello, Steve.

All right. Your topic is one that might take a little bit to soak in. Washing the dishes. Are machines better than hand washing? Most of the crowd here in North Van. did not know washing them by hand was an option. This debate doesn't focus on the one other dishwashing-related activity. Drying.

Drying is the easiest job, in fact, so easy that air can do it. But I learned at a very young age that the shortcut of putting dishes in the clothes dryer doesn't work. Even if you are on the gentle cycle. Time now for a debate that will really dish the dirt. So, whereas it saves time, water, and energy, all while providing a higher level of cleanliness, be it resolved when it comes to cleaning dishes

using a dishwasher is superior to hand washing. Ryan, you're arguing for this, please. You have two minutes. Starting now, Ryan Williams. Fragments from the first dinner bowl were discovered in China in the Zhongji province dating back 20,000 years. The bowl was smashed into pieces

because 20,000 years ago no one wanted to wash the dang. thing. In 19,000 years, very little had changed. Then came Josephine Cochran, a woman. Josephine had a problem. Her roommates at the time called servants were chipping and damaging her fine china. Josephine did what all people do when they want to avoid conflict, something way harder and crazier. Her insanity benefited society. She invented the dishwasher. Her invention, the dishwasher, debuted at the 1893 World's Fair.

Onlookers gasp in astonishment knowing that one of the most annoying chores had been eliminated and humanity was about to ascend to the golden age. 1893 also marked the first landlord exclaiming, I don't really see the use, it doesn't take that much extra time to actually wash them by hand. You can just soak them in the sink. It's not that bad, actually. Actually, anti-dishwashers Luddites will give you a fork and say those little gaps. In between the prongs that never get clean properly, you know the ones you're going to stab

into your food and then put directly into your mouth? I rubbed a dirty sponge near it. And then ran hot water over it for two seconds. It's clean. I'm kidding. People who prefer hand washing and say, Oh, my wife slash girlfriend slash mom does the dishes. If you hate the dishwasher,

what you really hate is the person washing dishes, you hate progress, and you hate women. Thank you very much. Brian Williams, ladies and gentlemen. Now, here to say that hand washing is the best, dishpan hands down, it's Sean Devlin. Washing dishes by hand is simply necessary. If you've ever had to wash a dirty dish,

because a dishwashing machine failed to do its job, please clap right now. If you've got a dishwasher in your home, you've got a robotic roommate who refuses to finish his chores. Now, humans who are in league with the robots, Ryan, they'll say, oh, you just have to soak things before the dishwasher does its job.

But as a person who has actually been a professional human dishwasher in a kitchen, I can confirm that soaking is part of the job. You filthy droid. We don't accept this kind of unfinished work from other machines, like an elevator. Or I can see that, some of you have never been on an elevator before.

So allow me to give you a much more relatable example. Let's say you asked Chet GPT to write a debate for you. But instead, it just pumped out a list of brand-name dishwashers with prices. Now, it's actually more work to rewrite that dishwasher list into a compelling debate argument,

then it would have been to just write it yourself in the first place. Think of how frustrating that was for you. My point is, don't send a machine to do a human's job unless it's going to finish the job. Whirlpool W model 400,000... Thank you.

Sean Devlin, everybody. Sean Devlin says hand washing better than dishwasher. Ryan says the opposite, and it's time now for the bare knuckle round. Oh, what's happening now? The two are meeting mid-stage. They've got rubber gloves.

Each have pulled out a rubber glove, and they've slapped each other in the face. They have slapped each other in the face with rubber gloves. This is officially a duel now. Time now for the bare knuckle round. We're debating whether using a dishwasher beats washing dishes by hand.

So, since the rubber gloves are off, time to tap into the audience's psyche, but avoid running hot and cold because that'll drain them. If you do, I may tag you out. All right, let's see what comes out in the wash, starting now. Ryan referenced Chinese history.

Nice. But the famous Chinese philosopher Confucius once said, and I quote, It is best to wash thy dishes by thoust hands. Surely there will never be a better way. Trust me, I'm one of the smartest guys ever. I'm confused. Fucking so slow, you can tell this is not a man that values good time.

Wasn't we say you're just anti all technology now? You're just anti all the appliances in the kitchen. This is Vancouver. If you use outside as a refrigerator, you will get very sick and die. That is a fact. Ryan, you were right about one thing. A woman invented the dishwasher because her servants were making human errors.

But in their defense, if I were being paid a measly $2 a week, yeah, you're getting some errors. He used chat GPT. In 40 years from now, that's not going to age well, buddy. I can guarantee you that. Ryan seems to believe that only women and machines wash ditches. But recent scientific research has proven that that opinion is stupid.

That's the bare knuckle round, everybody. This is an option that's not available to those who are listening to this debate in real time. If you're listening to the recording of this, I would suggest turning the speed up when Sean's speaking and then down when Ryan's speaking to get an even experience. It is time now for the firing line in my hand.

I have a list of questions on. Dishwashing brought to you by the best way to end an argument over doing the dishes. Offer a palm olive branch. Among the items Simplyrecipes.com says you should never put in the dishwasher are nonstick pans, wooden cutting boards, or utensils, and what else? Ryan Williams. Passport. Not what I have here, but that is good advice.

Don't put your passport in the dishwasher. Pots? Pants. plates, bowls, cups, forks. We definitely don't have time to just have you list everything, Sean. Thank you. According to simplyreceptes.com, you should never put pans, wooden cutting boards, utensils, or electronics, or car parts.

Car parts in the dishwasher. It's carbunera, not carburetor. In 2013, Felix Trotter of Germany set what dishwashing-related Guinness World Record. Ryan. Most broken dishes that occur when you grab them because sometimes they're so darn slippery. It's not my fault of it.

Slipped out of his hand and it's broken now. He's just trying to get it done. He's got to fight through traffic to get over the bridge to get to the show. Close. Now say it in German. Felix Trotter of Germany set this dishwashing related Guinness World Record. Most dishes hand washed in one hour,

1,106. Ladies. Eater.com says you can cook a steak in a dishwasher, but when you take it out, you should probably do what? Sean? Preemptively dial 911. That was a good guess. Ryan Williams.

After you cook your steak in the dishwasher, before you take it out, you should probably take your baked potato out of the dryer. That's all you... Good answer. She's just giving you three points. No, once you cook your steak and a dishwasher and you take it out, you should give it a good sear and then serve it to your least favorite dinner guest.

And that is the firing line, everybody. All right. We're entering the home stretch, and it's almost time for our centennial theater audience to vote. But first, here again to tell us why when it comes to doing the dishes, washing them by hand is what he'd lather do. Let's hear from Sean.

Ryan has a hidden agenda. I looked up Canadian businesses that make money selling dishwashers, and one of them is called the Williams Food Equipment Company. And what's Ryan's last name? His last name is Williams. Is there a connection? Probably. I can't really be sure if Ryan is bound by blood to the CEOs that big dishwasher.

So some of you may dismiss my closing argument as nothing but a conspiracy theory. But is it really a conspiracy theory if they're letting me say it on CBC radio? Thank you. John Depplin. John Deblen. Yes. Bringing it around nicely. And now, here with gratitude that dishwashers always come to your kitchen aid.

Not an official sponsor, but could be. Let's hear from Ryan Williams. Hand washers claim the dishwasher is bad for the environment. Shower skippers and multiple uses between underwear washes have the same argument. I'm using the environment as an excuse to be gross. Here's the catch. And this is not from the blue-blooded line of dishwasher, Neppo babies. This is from a guy that grew up in the cootneys

and had to vacuum the floodwater out of his basement before he was allowed to watch Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Modern dishwashers use less water than hand-washing. You're like every guy I grew up with Chad. G.P.T. has turned you into a paranoid, delusional conspiracy spouting nut job. Dawn has to sell dish soap by covering ducks and oil. Cascade would never. These sick hand washers will see a clean lake

and their first thought will immediately be, oh, I can soak so many pans in there real good. So here's the big reveal, everybody. I am a hand washer by fate. I haven't had a dishwasher in nine years. So if you vote for Sean, that's fine. But I need you to roll up your sleeves. Come down to my basement, sweet.

watch your head, and look me in the eyes while you washed my roommate's dishes from three days ago. Thank you very much. Ryan Williams with a passionate argument on behalf of dishwashers, and the audience couldn't be presented with two more opposing styles, so let's see which one they're going to go with here. By applause, how many of you felt that Ryan's dishwasher diatribe was stacked in his favor, Ryan Williams. Any of you did it dawn on that when it comes to doing the dishes,

hand washing is the way to go. Sean Devlin. It is close. I have to give this one just by a little bit to Ryan. Well, that's all for this week. I'm Steve. Pishers or dishes by hand. That's still better than washing them by foot.

I'll argue with you again soon. The Debaters is created by Richard Side. This week's episode was produced by Nicole Calendar Chloe Edbrook, Dean Jenkinson, and Graham Clark, with continuity by Graham Clark, Diana Francis, and Gary Jones. With technical production by James Ferrella and Keenan O'Connor. Story editing by Gary Jones. With special thanks to Katie Ellen Humphreys, David Pride, and Emily Ferrier.

Executive producer of CBC Radio Comedy is Lee Pitts. And thanks to everyone at the Centennial Theater in North Vancouver. For more CBC podcasts, go to CBC.com. slash podcasts.