The Debaters - Are scammers getting smarter? Should everyone join a book club?

Episode Date: April 9, 2026

Is avoiding scammers mission imposter-ble? Craig Fay argues that it’s easy to fall for a scam these days, but Elvira Kurt is a born skeptic. Next, we’re talking book clubs. Martha Chaves says they’re a novel idea, but Kyle Brownrigg refuses to join the club.Featuring: Craig Fay, Elvira Kurt, Martha Chaves, and Kyle Brownrigg.

At Jean-Catou, you'll find savings everywhere. There's weekly specials on the shelves, house brands that save you money in your basket, and tons of moire points at the cash. You can save everywhere. And if that's not enough, this Saturday and Sunday only get a $10, $10 gift card for every $60 you spend on almost anything,

in store, and online. Everywhere you turn, you'll find plenty of simple ways to save at Jean-Cat-Cat-Cut. Certain conditions apply. Details at jankat-com. This is a CBC podcast. Hey Canada, we know there's Dufferin strokes for Dufferin folks from Toronto, Ontario, home of the Dufferin Mall. The debaters where comedians fight with facts and funny, and this audience picks the winner. Now here's a man who marches to a Dufferin drummer, Steve.

It is great to be back in Toronto, a city that has many things to celebrate. Let me tell you about one. For instance, the Egglington Cross Town LRT is open. Believe it or not, it is open. Three teens who were toddlers when the project started. Camped out overnight to be the first passengers on board. True story. I love their youthful enthusiasm, and I hope that when the Gardner Expressway improvements are completed,

those same youths get to christen it along with their great, great grandchildren. I mean that. Time now to meet two debaters who are never delayed on their road to hilarity. This comic was accused of selling worn out tires but insisted that was a bald-faced lie. Making his debaters debut, it's Craig Faye. Come on out, thank you. Welcome, my friend. And this comic easily directed a kindergarten Christmas pageant insisting it was mere child's play.

It's Toronto's Alvira Kurt. Taking the podium to my right. Hello, fam. Hello. Thanks for having me, Sue. Your topic, debaters, is a little tricky. Scams. Are they impossible to avoid?

I'm not sure which of our producers decided to debate this. But I'm guessing they got scammed recently. Was it producer Nicole, who recently announced her upcoming nuptials and is now being bombarded with various wedding scammers? Was it Graham still sore after dumping his money into a crypto scheme called Tales from the Crypto? Or is our executive producer Lee still smarting from that trip he won to anywhere air Canada flies within the prairie provinces during the winter months? I don't know.

But it's time now for a debate that we think is on the up and up. So, whereas the scammers methods and means are becoming even more sophisticated and, and harder to spot, be it resolved, it's virtually impossible to avoid being scammed. Craig, you arguing for this, please, my friend. You have two minutes, starting now, Craig Faye. Thank you. See, Alvira, being scammed is like diarrhea.

Nobody is immune, it's just a matter of when, where, and how embarrassing it's going to be when it happens. And like, here's the thing. The truth is, we are spending more and more of our lives and money online, a place that it is becoming increasingly difficult to figure out what is real and what is not, right? Like is this a real person or is this an AI chatbot? Is this an actual celebrity or is this a celebrity deep fake? Is this a genuine haughty or is this a 60-year-old chain smoking alcoholic with a bold

glamour filter enabled? It's impossible to tell. I recently saw a fake video of Donald Trump, and it looked like him, it sounded like him. The only reason I knew it was fake is because he was explaining how to do differential calculus. Yeah. And the truth is, you don't even need to be a politician, you don't need to be a celebrity for this sort of thing to happen to you, right? There are scammers out there that can duplicate your face and your voice on a live video call, And then they call your family and ask for money.

Okay? That's a real scam that is happening to the point where security experts advise you to have a password with all of your loved ones so you don't fall for this scam. And I am here today to tell you that I am not going to remember our password. I'm not even going to remember that we had a password. I'm just going to be sitting there and be like, sure, I'll give you the money. Stop saying applesauce. It's weird.

We no longer live in a world where we need to be vigilant about weird or suspicious lengths or unsolicited Nigerian print scams. No, we live in a world where we can no longer depend on our eyes and ears to positively identify the people we love and trust most

in our lives. You're going to get scammed. Craig Faye, everybody. Craig Faye. On why it's impossible to avoid being scammed. And this is one of those rare debates where we have a debater, we give them an assignment, and we're like, just, you know, do it, make it funny. And then they say a lot of truth,

and then it's actually pretty scary. Now, with some real words against Craig's pro-resolution viewpoint, here's our resident con artist, Alvira Kurt. You want to avoid being scammed? It's simple. Just be raised by Hungarian immigrants. What they lack in supportive loving kindness,

they will more than make up for with suspicion, contempt, and the unshakable worldview that people are evil, the system is rigged, everything sucks, and if you don't watch out, they will get you. One of my baby photos, I look skeptical. To instill me with her core belief, life is hard. You don't know.

That's nice to hear when you're two. When I came out to my parents, my mother's reaction was, Who did this to you? I had been conned into being a lesbian. Sure, this traumatic upbringing cratered my self-esteem and left me a mere shell of a human.

I mean, have you met comedians? Aside to having emotional baggage out the wazoo, I trust no one. Fishing, even with an F. Ams, because I'm damaged goods. And I'm a boomer. Arms can only dream of. Tending to be Revenue Canada,

I will play you so hard, it'll make your head spin. My social insurance number? ID number. My social insurance number, your ID number. My ID number? Okay, your social insurance number. Shoot, yeah, I just duck season,

rabbit season, your butt. In short, don't be a sheep. And if you can't, just be a curt. Thank you. Yeah, ladies and gentlemen, we got ourselves a debate about scams, and it's time now for the bare-knuckle

round. We're debating being So, jump upon Z-chance. They can't all be goal. I've been doing this for 20 years. Jump upon Z-chance to interact while fishing for laughs. Without laughs, I'm a fraud. It would be next to imposterable to be the one who Bernie made off with the wind.

So ask this audience to send you a he-e transfer starting now. I just want to say off the top with all those puns, I would not want to guess any of your passwords either. So that's good. Yeah, that's good.

But Alvira, how can you, I understand that you're saying that you're suspicious, but how can you think that you're not going to get scammed when legitimate businesses are a scam right now? Right?

Uber is a car company that doesn't own cars. Airbnb rents rooms in other people's houses. All Canadian grocery stores were caught fixing the price of bread. If you're not getting scammed, you're gluten intolerant.

So convinced that we have no agency, is that it? It feels like you're just, you think everything is a red flag. You look like you're just a walking red flag yourself. That's true. I'm a comedian. I can't believe that you, you were saying that you try and scam the scene.

CRA scam people. I'm surprised that you even answer your phone. That's the most boomer thing in the world. No one I know ever calls me. So not even your parents? So is like, do you just ignore their calls? I send a text. The only time I've called my wife in the 10 years we've been together

is when she loses her phone in the couch. Loses her phone in the couch. One of us will hear it. Just quiet. Well, I hear something buzzing. What do you say to that, Alvira? And skip, skip the first thoughts. This is a CBC.

Steve, what were we talking about? And that's the bare knuckle around, everybody. It's time now for the firing line. In my hand, I have a list of questions on being scammed, brought to you by the infamous happy days sitcom swindle, the Fonzie Scheme. A 2022 Netflix documentary told the story of a man who posed online as a wealthy diamond mogul

and conned multiple women out of millions of dollars. What was its rhyming title? Craig. The Wham-Bam Thank You Scam. I like that. Two and a half points. Elvira. The dad bought ring fraud.

I like that too. I like that too. Yeah, another one? Ice, Ice, shady. The rhyming title of the big Netflix documentary was the Tinder Twindler.

Tinder swindler. See, not as good as the other answers. A 2026 Legé survey finds 52% of Canadians admit to behaviors that might make them vulnerable to scams, like clicking suspicious links, using public Wi-Fi to access bank accounts. Uh-oh. And what else?

Alvira. Participating in sketchy surveys. That's a real, that's a good, strong answer. One point. Craig Faye. Having people you love and care about. You're vulnerable if you have anybody in your life. Empathy's a curse.

Okay. No, you make yourself vulnerable to scams by opening attachments from unknown senders, obviously. I avoid this by not opening any messages from anyone. TD Bank's website says there are eight things your bank will never do, including rushing you to do anything, asking for access to your computer, and what other things? Alvira.

Care about you. Full point. I think it's in the fine print. Craig Faye. Having more than one teller working when you need to do something simple, but the ATM has eaten your cord and there is a 96-year-old at the front of the line trying to pay their gas bill from an account. They haven't access since 1978. Incorrect.

Your bank will never ask you to keep a secret. That is the dumbest answer I've ever said. That's the firing line, everybody. It is almost time for our Danforth Music Hall audience to place their votes. But first, here again, hoping to see Craig lose badly so she can enjoy some shot and fraud about it. Let's hear from Alvira Kurt.

If you agree with anything, Craig said in this debate, you've been scammed. Him with approving congratulations for a job well done. Well played, Mr. Fay, if that's your real name. We put the con job in congratulations for a job well done. Sure, it's easier to believe we have no control. and our better natures are no match for today's sophisticated scammers. Falling for crypto offers, fake calls that the cops are after you,

texts promising you megabucks to work from home, or saying your porn history has been hacked. Is way more appealing than the alternative? Thinking critically. Being sharp and alert, using your brain, that takes work. Boll... You gullible geese, I say, respectfully, wake the flat urs.

Once said there's a sucker born every minute, doesn't mean it has to be you. But do erase your porn history. Thank you. It's over here. Now, here to say that scams are unavoidable with an argument that he hopes won't be flagged for suspicious activity.

Let's hear again from Craig Faye. Listen, needing a password to identify your friends and family, That's not critical thinking. That sounds like a medieval fairy tale. We tell children to trick them into behaving. You know what I mean? Like, well, children, gather around and let me tell you the tale of the doppelganger.

It will steal your face and your voice and prowl the world praying upon your loved ones. And it can only be defeated by a riddle. I much rather get scam than have to answer every single video call like it's the 1400s. Just be like, Hark, cousin, your tale of tragedy and woe hath moved me towards generosity. And though thou looketh, and though thou soundeth like, my mother's brother's son. Pray tell.

Be the word of passage shared twigs us yester year. Now lest she not receive the interact electronic transfer. You're going to get scammed. Everybody. Craig Craig, an excellent argument and excellent character work, Craig. Thank you. All right, Danforth, it's time to vote by applause. Who agreed with Craig that everyone will get scammed eventually

and bought into his ad campaign Got Bill Craig Faye? And who agreed with Alvira that it's not hard to tell the difference between the phone operators and the phony operators? Alvira Kurt. And it's so close that I don't have to decide. It's a tie. We're not sure. Hey, debaters listeners.

Well, there's no debating it. We'd love it if you could hit the follow button on our podcast. That way, you won't miss an episode. And if you already follow us, thank you. At Jean-Catut, you'll find savings everywhere. There's weekly specials on the shelves, house brands that save you money in your basket, and tons of more points at the cash.

You can save everywhere. And if that's not enough, This Saturday and Sunday only get a $10 $10 Junkatatoo gift card for every $60 you spend on almost anything in store and online. Everywhere you turn, you'll find plenty of simple ways to save at Junkatoo.

Certain conditions apply. Details at junkatoo.com. I'm Lisa Yuso, a digital producer at Ideas, the podcast that likes to feed your curiosity. I ask my colleagues, why they think you should listen. Ideas can make you the smartest, most interesting, guest at your next dinner party in less than 60 minutes. It's got the best of a storytelling podcast with the best of a great lecture.

You can pretty much never predict where an episode will take you, but you can count on every episode to shift your perspective, even just a little. Find and follow ideas wherever you get your podcasts. Hey Toronto, are you ready to meet your next pair of debaters? Listen to that. When this comic files her income tax return. and she considers it payback time. It's Toronto's Marta Chavez.

One of our very favorites. Always a pleasure, my friend. And this comic once ate a bowl of cereal while sitting in the audience of the Grand Ole Opry. It's Toronto's Kyle Browning. Welcome back. Debaters, your topic is one that would be a great discussion at Canada Reeds.

Book clubs. Should everyone join one? I wish those listening to this show on radio and podcast could see the audience assembled for this recording. We are clearly in a room full of readers. And by readers, I mean bifocal lenses. I got them too. Because if there's one thing CBC fans love to do,

it's read, mostly so they can write eloquent letters of complaint. Time now for a nother. So, whereas it's a fun way to discuss and learn about written works, meet new people, and take you out of your comfort zone, be it resolved, everyone should join a book club. Marta, you are arguing for this, please. You have two minutes, starting now. Marta Chavez! I think we all agree that reading is one of the pillars of civilization. And that is why when evil people want to keep you stupid, they burn the world.

They burned the books. Everything is a wonderful escape, you know? And that is why, since I was a kid, I loved seeing someone reading the same book I was reading. But when I tried to discuss it, you know, I always heard, shh, and they kicked me out of the library. Book clubs are not just about reading. They get a gym for your brain,

because you see all the pirouettes you have to do to be able to agree with everybody. Now, the true magic of a book club lies in the fascinating cast of characters. Not on books, you know, among the members. Yeah. In my book club, everyone is an epic poem, or a walking novel, or at least a telenovela. There is a guy who thinks that every book is a metaphor for capitalism. And that is why Winnie the Pooh was looking for.

for honey. That is the woman who only loves AI. You know, alcohol ingestion. And then there is me, taking notes for my future bestseller. You know, book clubs spark creativity. But one of the best parts of a book club is when everyone hates a book, like when we hated the ending of Orwell's 1984. So we rewrote it. We rewrote it in our version. Winston, takes big brother down when he realizes that he's just a bully, and there is a happy ending. And that is why you should join a book club, to read, be creative, and to have the intellectual capacity

to vanquish the bully. Montezza Chavez, everybody. Yeah. On behalf of book club. Thank you, Martha. Now, here to explain why he thinks that nothing could be less appealing than going out book clubbing with friends. Let's hear from Kyle Browning! The 20th century gave rise to some of the most brutal dictatorships in human

history. Hitler, Saddam Hussein, Mary Kaye cosmetics, regimes defined by fear, punishment, and unwavering obedience. But But perhaps the most relentless dictatorship of all, one whose reign continues to this day, Oprah's Book Club. She will ruin or resurrect an author's career overnight, and one does not question the supreme leader. I said one negative thing about Oprah's book selection, and now my hairline is receding. Everyone should join a book club. Wow. Okay.

That is extremely offensive and ablest to all of our illiterate listeners. This is the CBC. I hate book clubs. Nothing says fun like mandatory. Why read for pleasure whenever you can participate in a coerced, schedule-driven obligation? I hate reading for a deadline. I don't want to feel bad if I don't read the book, right?

I don't want to be held accountable. Accountability is so out of fashion. The U.S. has been very clear about that. Book clubs are predictable. I don't want to read 50 Shades of Gray. Again. Also, what's the point? You know, all the really good books, like, get made into movies.

And you know what? 50 Shades of Gray was made into a movie. It sucked, but I found that out in 90 minutes instead of wasting an entire month reading it. Have you ever been to a book club meeting? You do discuss the book until something reminds Debbie about her custody battle with her ex. And suddenly, that's all you're talking about. You can't leave because that's rude, right? And suddenly, book club is a hostage situation.

You're Tom Hanks and Debbie is the captain now. So skip the book club. Enjoy a night without homework or a supreme leader. Okay, thank you. This is not what I do with book clubs. And it's time now for the bare knuckle round. We're debating whether everyone should join a book club. So, watermark my words.

The winner will be the one who speaks volumes and is the bestseller of their art. You want the audience exclaiming, man, you scripted that well. If I may be so forward, it's time to grab a spine, because this audience's decision will be binding. Hey, Gail, what is this story that it takes you one month

to read a book? Again, ableist. It takes me a month to finish 50 shades because, okay, this is like a CBC broadcast, but let's say I have to take a lot of breaks. Okay, so you get it. Well, you know, I got to take a lot of breaks when I read the Bible

because I am just saying, unbelievable. I think you guys are taking different kinds of breaks. Yes. Mr. I'm not even from your generation. That's why, you know, he's from the generation that he thinks that the Great Gatsby is a cocktail. And he's like,

with his phone. I am not from that generation. I love the smells of books. I love the smell of libraries. Okay. Okay, but like you said you were kicked out of libraries. Like, that doesn't sound safe. Well, but that means that I was at a library.

Were you at a library? I don't think so. Okay. That's the Baron Nuck Around, everybody. That is the Bear Nuck Around. All right, debaters, time now for the firing line. In my hand, I have a list of questions on book clubs, brought to you by Indiana Jones' favorite book club,

Readers of the Lost Book Mark. That was good. That was good. They were so angry. They were. Oh! One book club variation is a silent book club. What's a silent book club?

Marta. The number one rule of the book club is not to talk about the book club. Good delivery. Two and a half point. Kyle Brownring? Okay, what is a silent book club? A movie theater. Right to the point.

I liked it. A silent book club is where attending. gather and silently read a book of their own choosing for about an hour, and at the end, they can socialize or not. That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard of my life. 2026 marks the 25th edition of Canada Reeds. CBC's, yeah. CBC's program where panelists each champion a book that they think all Canadians should read.

What book won the first year of Canada Reeds? Unstoppable, the Blackberry story. That's a deep cut right there. Incorrect, but I like the effort. Marta? This is the one that went, I'm so tired. Bridges.

It's Michael on the chi in the skin of a lion. And that's the song. I'm so tired. Okay, well the answer is correct. The book that won the first one, in the skin of a line by Michael Ondachi. I guess I will give you a bonus point for singing it. Two points.

Spectator.com's article, The Case Against Book Clubs, says the only redeeming feature of book clubs is what? Kyle? An evening without kids. A few people clapping real loud at that one. Mark that. That when you are under the influence of Prosecco,

some books get a lot more interesting. Yeah, yeah. The actual answer is the only redeeming feature of book clubs is the wine, so that's kind of the right answer. That's the firing line, everybody. We're getting close to the time when our magical Danforth music hall audience places their votes. But first, here again to vent as to why he thinks book clubs should be clubbed.

Let's hear again from Kyle Brownring. Martha, I know that you want everybody to join your book club, and, like, I'm not trying to kink shame, but, like, we're not all into group stuff, you know. Also, you know, people act like book clubs are, like, inherently, like, wholesome and educational. like the Nazis had a book club. Right. And they selected a lot of books for their club. And if they had like one main feedback, it would be fire.

And given the number of like neo-Nazis that are currently popping up in the news online and in the White House, I don't think that your argument that everyone should join a book club. is the wisest or historically informed argument. Why do books have to be a group activity? Reading, like lovemaking, is a pleasure best enjoyed alone. Kyle Brownrigg, everybody. Dedication to self-love there. Thank you, Kyle.

Now, here to explain how we can all take a page out of the benefits of joining a book club. Let's hear again from Marvelous Marte Chavez. The film says that book clubs are a waste of time because we have TVs and movies. But watching Homer, the father of Bart Simpson, is not the same as reading Homer, the father of Greek literature. Reading lets your imagination create a whole picture. On TV and movies, they have to cast actors, and that always bring problems. Like now there is an online debate about Lupita Nyango

playing the role of Helen of Troy because she's black. And people, they are going, oh, Helen wasn't black, Helen wasn't black. Well, Helen wasn't real either. And how do I know that? Because I read. Book clubs provoke creativity, laughter, and debates. And if Big Brother ever takes the Internet away,

away, it is as readers who will save civilization, because we all know how to plot, literally. So join a book club. It will force you to read and be the Netflix of your mind. That is! Yeah! With a passionate argument, on behalf of joining book clubs, Kyle Brownring is against,

and let's see what our Danforth Music Hall audience has decided. By applause, how many of you heard Marta talk up book clubs and felt that she successfully read the room? Marta Chavez! And how many of you agree with Kyle's assertion that book clubs do nothing but get his paper back up? Kyle Brownrack. It is very close. It is well fought on each side, but I've got to give this one by a slim margin to Marta Chavez.

Everybody, join up Lephymes and Kyle Brown. That's all for this week. I'm Steve Patterson saying to everyone out there who loves reading. Way to go, lectiofiles. The rest of you, look it up. I'll argue with you again soon, Canada. Good night. The Debaters is created by Richard Seid.

This week's episode was produced by Nicole Callender, Chloe Edbrook, Dean Jenkinson, and Graham Clark. With continuity by Graham Clark, Diana Francis, and Gary Jones. Technical production by James Pirella and Todd Reimer. Story editing by Gary Jones. With special thanks to Katie Ellen Humphreys, David Pride, and Emily Ferrier. Executive producer of CBC Radio Comedy

is Lee Pitts. And thanks to everyone at the Danforth Music Hall in Toronto. For more CBC podcasts, go to cBC.ca.ca slash podcasts.