The Debaters - Do butter tarts beat Nanaimo bars? And is there no shame in quitting?

Episode Date: April 24, 2025

Which Canadian confection are you sweet on: Butter tarts or Nanaimo bars? And do quitters never win?Featuring: Deborah Kimmett, Jon Steinberg, Graham Chittenden, and Leonard Chan.

1942, Europe. Soldiers find a boy surviving alone in the woods. They make him a member of Hitler's army. But what no one would know for decades, he was Jewish. Could a story so unbelievable be true? I'm Dan Goldberg. I'm from CBC's personally, Toy Soldier. Available now wherever you get your podcasts. This is a CBC Podcast. Hey Canada! We're ready for some best and furious comedy from Berry Ontario, home of Kempenfest. It's The Debater!

Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! The Debater is where comedians fight with facts and funny, and this audience picks the winner.

Now here's a man who's the best of any fest, Steve Patterson! Hey! Thanks, Graham Clark! Hello Canada! Welcome back to The Debaters! And it is a blast to be here in Barrie, Ontario for the first time. Barrie, Ontario, a city that is very much in development. One such development project is the debut waterfront residences that are set to be the tallest in town.

All right. They're not quite skyscrapers, they're more like sky scuffers. They say from the top floor, on a clear day, you'll be able to see all the way to Aurelia's dump. Oh! Reactions? So far have been mixed. But one man interviewed by toronto.com said, and I quote, it's kind of an eyesore,

but at the same time it's bringing work and places for people to stay. But at the same time, it's bringing work and places for people to stay. But at the same time, it's ruining downtown Barry." End quote. Yeah. That interview was really informative, but at the same time, not at all. Yeah. Time now to meet two debaters who tower above the rest.

This comic was a great success. Yeah. Time now to meet two debaters who tower above the rest. This comic wonders whether dog owners should clean their puppy's teeth with a water pick of the litter. It's Toronto's Deborah Kimmett. Come on out, Deb. Deborah Kimmett, one of our favorites, striding purposely across the stage. To my right.

Hello. Hi, Deb. And when this comic takes a laxative, he wants no sudden movements. It's Toronto's John Steinberg. John, another of our very favorites. Hi, Steve. Hi.

Welcome back. Your topic is sure to be a sweet one, especially in these parts. Butter tarts versus Nanaimo bars. Listen to the crowd. Butter tarts versus Nanaimo bars, which are superior? This is a tasty debate to do in Berry because the first printed recipe for a butter tart was right here in Berry in 1900. Did you know that?

The year 1900. Now, if you don't know what the main ingredient in a butter tart is, it's olive oil. Most butter tarts are made with butter, I think. On the other side of this debate is the Nanaimo Bar. Nanaimo Bar, a layered chocolate custard and coconut crumb confection created in, of course, Bradford, Ontario. No, that was from, I think it's from Nanaimo. Regardless, both desserts are best served with coffee or tea, and just in case, a defibrillator

or paramedic. Time now for a debate that we hope won't end up half-baked. So whereas they have a longer, richer history and a classic beloved taste and texture, beard-resolved butter tarts are superior to Nanaimo bars. Debra, you are arguing for this, please. You have two minutes. Starting now, Debra Kimmett. (*audience applauds*)

As Steve mentioned, the first recipe for the butter tart came from Berry, and the town council was gonna call it Berry Tarts, but that was already the name of the ladies' curling team. Now there are butter tart festivals all over the world, but where are the Nanaimo Bar festivals? In Nanaimo? Nope.

I never even heard of this thing called the Nanaimo Bar. Until 1980, some cousin came home from the West, I never even heard of this thing called the Nanaimo Bar until 1980. Some cousin came home from the West, peddling their needs to be refrigerated square. (*Laughter*) And before you knew it, the Nanaimo Bar took over every baby shower, every funeral, every lesbian potluck.

(*Laughter*) every funeral, every lesbian potluck. And the poor butter tart was relegated to a dessert at the back of the tray. A dessert in waiting, if you will. Waiting for the day the people of Canada would return to the delicious simplicity of sugar, butter, lard. Lard. Who doesn't love lard? I loved butter tarts so much as a child, I'd steal them and my mother wasn't looking, and I'd take one and slip it down my pants for later. But you can't put an enamel bar down your pants, can you? Your mother finds an enamel bar in your pants.

She books you for a colonoscopy. I'm sorry I'm sentimental, because I remember as a teen, we'd all get high and hotbox some butter tarts in our gremlin. Because everyone knows the best place to eat a butter tart is in your car. The cops can't smell it on your breath. You know, you can scarf five or six butter tarts on the three-hour commute up the 400. You get pulled over, you won't blow over with a butter tart. But if you get pulled over free-basing an enymo bar,

well, that ganache stash gives you away, and you'll be losing six points. Thank you. Well, that ganache stash gives you away, and you'll be losing six points. Thank you. Yeah! Deborah Kimmett, a beautiful tribute on behalf of Butter Tarts. Now, here to tell us why Nanaimo bars are the tastiest bars to him, bar none,

let's hear from John Steinberg. If you've never had an Nanaimo bar, you're missing out. It consists of three layers. First layer, chocolate ganache. We're off to an excellent start. Next layer, custard icing. I know you're thinking, I love custard and I love icing. But those are two separate things. Not anymore.

Now the bottom layer, and I'm going to lose a lot of you on this one. It does contain shredded coconut. There's some other stuff too, good stuff, but yeah, there's still that shredded coconut and there's no getting past that. The good news is you don't gotta eat that bottom layer. Yeah. Yeah, you can just eat the top two. There is a technique to it, though. First of all, you don't want to hold the Nanaimo bar in your hands, so your hands will get all sticky. What I do is sit down at a table, place the bar in front of me, on a plate, obviously. I'm not an animal.

And then I go in face first. Yeah. Yeah, arms behind my back. Like I'm in one of those pie-eating contests. Yeah, it's just not something you want to do in front of other people. I learned that just now. Yeah, there's a dessert tray in the green room. Might have freaked out a few people.

But as I was standing in the wings, waiting to come out here, looking at my own reflection, I realized two things. One, I got to grab some napkins real quick. And two, the Nymo bars are delicious. Thank you. John Steinberg, everybody. Oh yeah. It's always a journey, John. Thank you.

All right, debaters. Time now for the bare-knuckle round. We're debating butter tarts over Nanaimo bars, so I'm not going to sugarcoat this. You may hear the gaudashing of teeth with a multi-layered argument. Let's hope this audience will have grown a custard to your style of comedy by then.

But that's just the way the cookie crumbles. It's time to start raising hell now! (*Applause*) I don't trust the Nanaimo bar. That's my problem. First off, you can never see it outside at a fair, because you'll get poisoned. And I don't think anything called Nanaimo... Nanaimo has the highest crime rate in all of Canada. You know why? Because of that yellow custard. People get hooked on it.

The next thing you know, they're going to get a little bit of a Nanaimo has the highest crime rate in all of Canada. You know why? Because of that yellow custard. People get hooked on it. The next thing you know, they're rolling old ladies from the Catholic Women's League. They have the highest crime rate because they have pastries worth stealing. Okay.

Okay. Okay. But, but with a butter tart you can put your cigarette out in it and nobody knows. Can't do that with an Nanaimo, I've tried it's too hard. Bars are the snacks of the future. That's where the world is going. It's going to squares? To bars. To bars. Yeah.

Yeah. Chocolate bars, that's what the kids are talking about. Yeah. Granola bars, all the... Yeah, but you can shorten tart to tartlet, and you've just got a little tart. I don't think you can shorten tart to tartlet, and you've just got a little tart. I don't think you can shorten tart to tartlet. Well, the word is longer, but the bite-sized tart.

Are you against a bite-sized tart? No, I'm not. I think you're prejudiced against a tart, and I think you're prejudiced against all old people, and I don't like it. Yeah. I'm also an old person normally. Yeah.

He's good. Eggs, sugar, and butter, that's the beginning of a great recipe. Don't give up there. That's the paradox Ducks around, everybody. It's time now for the firing line. In my hand I have a list of questions on Nanaimo Bars versus Butter Tarts brought to you by the latest celebrity dessert making show, Six Degrees of Kevin's Baking. There's a longstanding debate over what should be added to a butter tart recipe. Six degrees of Kevin's baking.

There's a long-standing debate over what should be added to a butter tart recipe. Some say nothing, others say raisins, still others say what? John. Four to six additional ingredients. Hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm. Crowd has given you three points for that. Deborah. Crowd has given you three points for that. Deborah?

Well, I know they shouldn't have margarine, because that would be not on butter. Sacktourage, yes. Yes, it would be. People always put margarine in things. Yeah. OK. Never mind. Good job, good job. Some say nothing else to a butter star, others say raisins, still some others say nuts, like

pecans or any kind of nut. In 2021, Canadians decried an article in the New York Times cooking about making an enamel bar. What terrible mistake did the Times make? John. That game wordle. The mistake that the Times cooking made was that the bars didn't have enough custard. Joyce Hardcastle, the winner of Nanaimo's 1986 contest to come up with an officially

recognized Nanaimo bar recipe, attributes her recipe's win to what? John? Blackmailing the judges. Good guess, but no. Debra? Having no life. Poor Joyce. No, she attributes her recipes win to it being basic. That's all it takes.

That's the firing line, everybody. Sometimes it's right there. Well, it is almost time again for our Georgian theater audience to vote. But first, here again to tell us why Nanaimo Bars raised the bar as far as he's concerned, let's hear again from John Steinberg. Butter tarts were invented by a lady named Mary Ethel McLeod, who one day forgot to pick up pecans from the market. And instead of admitting her mistake, she doubled down and claimed she had invented a whole new recipe. So if butter tarts were invented here in Berry,

why aren't they called Berry tarts? I'll tell you why. Because I spent some time in Berry, and the residents of Berry are amongst the greatest people I've met in my life. Laughter Applause Laughter And they deserve better.

Laughter Than to be associated with this confectionary abomination. Laughter The laziest dessert the world has ever known. Laughter Thank you. Yeah. John Steinberg.

Somehow buttering them up while simultaneously slamming buttertarts. That's difficult. Now, here to point out that if you remove the first two letters of buttertart, you're left with utter art. Let's hear from Deborah Kimmett. If you remove the first two letters of butter tart, you're left with utter art. Let's hear from Deborah Kimmett. I didn't want to say this tonight, but recently the PM appointed me Canada's butter tart czar.

Because up to this point, Canada has only been responsible for one percent of the tarts coming into this country. And that number is far too low, people. If Canadians were eating more butter tarts, it would keep our borders safe. Sure, we can have our elbows up, but then we could get hopped up on tarts, start twitching any time we saw an American try to take over our country. And as your czar, if that pompous, old-fashioned, but then we could get hopped up on tarts, start twitching anytime we saw an American try to take over our country.

And as your czar, if that pompous orange baboon threatened to ever make us the 51st state again, I'd shove a dozen butter tarts with raisins down his cake hole, and before you know it, he'd be lying on his back calling me granny, begging me to play crazy eights. Thank you. Deborah. Deborah Kimmett.

Making this debate a matter of national security. I did not see that coming, and I guarantee no one else has thought of that. Thank you, Deborah. All right, Barry, it is up to you to decide by applause how many of you enjoyed listening to Deborah butter up butter tarts. Deborah Kibbet.

A lot of love for Deborah. Deb Kibbet. And after hearing John, how many of you are now eager to belly up to the bar and become Nanaimo barflies? John Steinberg? Whoo! Pretty close.

It is very close, and it's close enough that I gotta give this one an inconclusive tie. It's a tie. Butter Tarts and Nanaimo Bars. Big hand for Deb Kimmett and John Steinberg, everybody. -♪ Hey, debaters, listeners. We've got another sweet debate coming up.

But first, it would be great if you could hit the follow button on our podcast. And while you're there, we'd love a rating or review. It really helps new listeners find us. Hey there, I'm David Common. If you're like me, there are things you love about living in the GTA and things that drive you absolutely crazy. Every day on This Is Toronto, we connect you to what matters most about life in the GTA, the news you gotta know, and the conversations your friends will be talking about. Whether you listen on a run through your neighbourhood or while sitting in the parking lot that is the 401,

check out This Is Toronto wherever you get your podcasts. Are you ready for your next pair of debaters? Listen to that crowd, Canada. This comic always comes through when the chits are down. It's Brantford, Ontario's Graham Chittenden. Graham, there he is, striding across to my right. And this comic thinks Bond villains should hide out in fancy bakeries so they can enjoy some evil layer cake. It's Toronto's Leonard Chan. Leonard Chan, welcome back, my friend. Thank you.

Your topic is one that we hope you'll stick around for, debaters. Quitting. Quitting. Is there any shame in it? This topic might be inspired by the parliamentary concept of proroguing, which, as many Canadians will remember, is the political term for quitting your responsibilities and hoping everyone forgets. My question is, if our governing parties can quit for a bit, why can't we ordinary Canadians do it? Right?

Need a little break from paying your taxes? Pro-rogue them. Need some relationship taxes? Pro-rogum. Need some relationship relief? Pro-rogit. Tired of cooking big family meals from scratch? Pro-rogum with delicious pre-prepared Polish pro-rogies. Time now for a debate that promises to go rogue. So, whereas it takes great courage and self-awareness to know when it's time to make a change, be it resolved that there's no shame in quitting. Graham, you're arguing for this, please.

You have two minutes starting now. Graham Chittenden. Thank you. APPLAUSE Off the top, let me just say that Trudeau quit, and that might be the thing that saves the CBC, so... LAUGHTER CHEERING Off the top, let me just say that Trudeau quit, and that might be the thing that saves the CBC. So... I love quitting.

Five years ago, I was given some advice that made me love quitting even more. I was told five years ago that I'm not essential. I had suspected it for a very long time. But it was very nice to have it confirmed. And people forget that that list never changed. Nobody became re-essential. I mean, all of you here tonight are lovely, but half of you are unnecessary.

Quitting is ingrained in 90% of my being. It would be 100%, but unfortunately I've been cursed with a butt that won't quit. Um... LAUGHTER Now, I may have some emotions when I quit something, but it's not shame. And I know this, because shame does not cause a rush of endorphins. LAUGHTER

Like, quitting gives me a runner's high. Even if I'm quitting going on a run. And if time is money, then isn't quitting like winning the lottery? I mean, quitting a job is so sweet that we invented something so that we could savor it. Two weeks notice. People who know they're leaving in two weeks,

you've seen them. Do they look shameful? No. Why don't you ask them when they get back from their two and a half hour lunch? There are some people that don't you ask them when they get back from their two and a half hour lunch? There are some people that don't quit. Celebrities, famous people, they become sports legends and CEOs and they're different. They all have one trait in common. They're unlikable. And let me be clear, quitting is not the same as giving up. In fact, they can be separate, exclusive.

Have you been to the ER lately? Have you renewed a driver's license in person? You'll meet people who have not quit, but they have definitely given up. Thank you very much. Yeah! Graham Chittenden! Wow! Solid, buddy, solid.

This crowd might quit before this debate's over. They like your points so much. You guys want to take off? Now, here to explain why, in a debate about quitting, he considers himself the Remain event, let's hear from Leonard Chan. There is shame in quitting. And that's a good thing.

Shame is what drives us to the finish line. Nobody would ever finish a marathon if there wasn't a nun with a bell chasing you chanting shame shame shame I have never quit a job in my life sure I've been fired a lot of times but I've never quit all right quitting teaches you it's okay to give up quitting is self-care quitting, your job makes you miserable. Sorry to Asian dad you, all right, but... Ha! Misery builds character! Ha-ha-ha. Like, what if the Wright brothers had quit? We wouldn't have flight.

What if Neil Armstrong had quit? We would never have made it to the moon. What if Donald Trump had quit? Whoo! Yeah. Yeah, if he had quit, we wouldn't be on our way to becoming the 51st state, which is the... No, I know, I know, I know.

Hey, quit it. No, don't. No, but that's a bad example, right? Because Donald Trump has no shame. And shame is a moral value, all right? The Chinese civilization was built on shame. Shame is why we have a great wall and not a pretty good wall.

And look, unlike in the West, where you're all individuals, right? In Asia, we are a collective. Shame is shared. Quitting can bring shame to an entire family. I had a cousin who quit college. His family was so embarrassed. Like, he quit schooling after only earning one degree. Like, in philosophy. Now he's unemployed. Can't even quit if he wants to.

If we both just quit whenever things got hard, neither of us would be here. This is Canadian entertainment. There is only hard mode. Ha ha. Shame is what keeps us going. Shame is what got us to the debaters. Ha ha.

Thank you. Ha ha. Leonard... It's hard to stop. I'm not supposed to quit. It's my brand. Yeah. Leonard Chan. It's time now for the I'm not supposed to quit. It's my brand. Yeah. Leonard Chan. It's time now for the Bare Knuckle Round.

They love it. They love the Bare Knuckle Round here in Bury because they think we're going to fight. We're debating whether there's no shame in quitting, so leave your opponent out in the cold, turkey. There's no shame in quitting, so leave your opponent out in the cold, turkey. The audience will two weeks notice if your argument has staying power in this verbal game of quidditch. Sorry, what I retire meant to say was, acquit yourselves well, because it's time to resignation letter rip now. I know I'm not disregarding shame and I have my in-laws are Chinese and there's sometimes there's shame

but the way they talk to me shameless. Just no shame. I have to ask, so you were fired for most of your jobs. I was. And there was no shame in the looks of those people as you got walked out of that building? Is that what you're saying? No, here's the thing. Because I knew what I was there for, alright?

I was there for a paycheck. Alright? I was there by doing the bare minimum to collect a paycheck. It's just my fault I miscalculated on the bare minimum to collect a paycheck is just my fault. I miscalculated on the bare minimum. Ha! Ha! Ha! Don't you feel... I just feel like quitting is the opposite of shame. It's like control. You are in control.

Like, if you were at a Chuck E. Cheese and you were like, it's time to go and you leave, maybe there's some shame that you went to the Chuck E. Cheese, but if you are asked to leave a Chuck E. Cheese... ... ... Pretty good. Yeah. That's a choice, right? Defeat is a choice.

And if you were walked out of a Chuck E. Cheese, you don't have to feel shame, all right? Being shameless and not quitting can take you far. It can get you to the White House. What's the last word on that? No, that guy should quit. Okay, all right. All right. That's...

All right, that's the Bear Knock Around. It's time now for the firing line. That's the bearknuckle round. It's time now for the firing line. In my hand I have a list of questions on quitting, brought to you by Quiet Quitting. How librarians leave their jobs. Big librarian fans here. There they are. Alright, alright. Yeah, you can be as loud as you want in here. In February 2025, Newfoundland and Labrador

Premier Andrew Fury resigned. What makes his resignation all the more noteworthy? Letter. It inspired the hit film, Mad Max, Fury Road. I like that, buddy. I like that one. Yep. I like that buddy. I like that one. Yeah.

I'm going to give one and a half points for that. Graham? What's particularly noteworthy about this resignation is that Graham Chittenden just found out about it on the radio. Right now. You've got to keep up with your Newfoundland politics. You never know. I'll tell you what's noteworthy about it.

Every single elected Newfoundland Labrador Premier has resigned while still in office. Oh. Every one of them. How can you resign if you're not in office? LAUGHTER CHEERING AND APPLAUSE You got us on a technicality there. Forbes list of 10 things to never do when you quit your job

includes leaving your desk in disarray, giving notice in an unprofessional way, and what else? Graham saying, yeah, I've got your exit interview right here while you point at your junk. I shouldn't do that. Crowd is giving you three points through the uprights. That one. Leonard?

Storming the Capitol. Also, three points. Know the things you should ever do when you leave your job according to Forbes, leave your desk in disarray, give notice in an unprofessional way, and talking about how happy you are to leave. And that is the firing line, everybody. All right. Just about that great time again when our Georgian theater audience votes. But first, here to say he never clashes with the question of should I stay or should I go?

Let's hear again from Leonard Chan. from Leonard Chan. ["The Last Post," by The New York Times, by David Bowie, and the New York Times, by David Bowie, and the New York Times, by David Bowie, and the New York Times, by David Bowie, and the New York Times, by David Bowie, and the New York Times, by David Bowie, and the New York Times, by David Bowie, and the New York Times, by David Bowie, and the New York Times, by David Bowie, and the New York Times, by David Bowie, and the New York Times, by David Bowie, and the New York Times, by David Bowie, and the New York Times, by David Bowie, and the New York Times, by David Bowie, and the New York Times, by David Bowie, and the New York Times, by David Bowie, and the New

York Times, by David Bowie, and the New York Times, by David Bowie, and the New York Times, by David Bowie, and the New York Times, by David Bowie, and the New York Times, by David Bowie, and the New York Times, by David Bowie, and the New York Times, by David Bowie, and the New York Times, by David Bowie, and the New York Times, by David Bowie, and the New York Times, by David Bowie, and the New York Times, by David Bowie, and the New York Times, by David Bowie, and the New York Times, by David Bowie, and the New York Times, by David Bowie, and the New York Times, by David Bowie, and the New York Times, by David Bowie, and the New York Times, by David Bowie, and the New York Times, by David Bowie, and the New York Times, by David Bowie, and the New York Times, by David Bowie, and the New York Times, by to those who are considering quitting, just remember, if you quit, you don't even get a participation trophy.

And those are already the most shameful trophies you can get. So I say this to the man with a butt that won't quit. If your butt did quit, it would have been a great shame. And a butt that won did quit, it would have been a great shame. And a butt that quits is a bum. All right. Leonard Chan, everybody. Oh, man. Thank you very much, Leonard. Now here to say he'll never give up

on the idea that it's okay to give up. Let's hear again from Graham Chittenden. Thank you. Leonard, I feel so sorry for you. You know, Leonard feels pressure about quitting from his Chinese family. I get that. I have Chinese in-laws who also equate quitting with shame.

But Chinese sensibilities are evolving. I get that. I have Chinese in-laws who also equate quitting with shame. But Chinese sensibilities are evolving. In fact, China has only recently come around to the fact that there's no shame in being a girl. Yeah, that's his side of the argument. Keep that in mind when you vote. I mean, some of my in-laws still think they're shaming being a white guy, but that's crazy because I'm a delightful man with a butt that won't quit. So Leonard Chan with your masters in science who quit two environmental remediation jobs in the four years following graduation according to your LinkedIn, then changed course entirely.

Changed course through quitting to win a Canadian Screen Award, which would not have happened in your previous career, as there is currently no category for the Screen Awards for best asbestos or vermiculite removal. Was there really any shame in quitting? Thank you very much. Wow. Graham Chittenden. Graham Chittenden.

This one got factual and personal. Wow. Graham Chittenden. Graham Chittenden. This one got factual and personal. Thanks, Graham. All right. It is time to vote, Barry, by applause. Who thought that Graham made the right choice to quit while he was ahead? Graham Chittenden. Whoo.

A lot of love for Graham. Okay. And who was fine to stay the course with Leonard's Auntie quitting quips, Leonard Chan? Yeah. Close. Very close, but I gotta give this one to Leonard Chan, everybody!

Big hand for Leonard Chan and Dre Chittenden! That's all for this week. I'm Steve Patterson saying I can't quit this show because I love it too much and also my kids are still very young. I'll argue with you again soon, Canada. Good night! The Debaters is created by Richard Side. This week's episode was produced by Nicole Callender, Chloe Edbrook, Dean Jenkinson,

and Graham Clark, with continuity by Graham Clark, Diana Francis, and Gary Jones. Technical production by James Perella and Todd Reimer. Story editing by Gary Jones, with special thanks to Katie Ellen Humphrey's Emily Ferrier and David Pride. Executive producer of CBC Radio Comedy is Lee Pitts. And thanks to everyone at the Georgian Theatre in Barrie.