The Debaters - Do museums make you smarter? Are rules meant to be broken?

Episode Date: January 22, 2026

We’ve got a brainy battle on whether museums are the secret to smarts. Then, are rules meant to be broken? Stay tuned for a criminally funny debate.Featuring: Isabel Zaw-Tun, Wassim El-Mounzer, Deborah Kimmett, and Don Kelly.

This program is brought to you in part by Specsavers. Every day, your eyes go through a lot. Squinting at screens, driving into the bright sun, reading in dim light, even late-night drives. That's why regular eye exams are so important. At Specsavers, every standard eye exam includes an advanced OCT 3D eye scan, technology that helps independent optometrists detect eye and health conditions at their earliest stages. Take care of your eyes. Book your eye exam at Specsavers today from just $99, including an OCT scan.

Book at Spexsavers.cavers.cautors.com. Eye exams are provided by independent optometrists. Prices may vary by location. Visit specksavers.com to learn more. This is a CBC podcast. Hey, Canada, with this show, the sky's the limit from Ottawa, home of the Canadian aviation and space museum, with facts and funny in this audience, picks the winner. Now, here's a man who always makes...

Great to be back in Ottawa, Ontario. There are many prestigious collections here, but none more impressive than the Canadian National Collection. of insects, arachnids, and nematodes. This library is among the largest in the world, so I assume the bugs are organized using the ewey decimal system. This collection boasts 17 million deceased bugs

and a few very nervous live ones. Time now to meet two debaters who are a parasite for sore eyes. This comic listens to poetry on audiobook because she finds the format really speaks to her. It's Isabelle Zoughton. Come on out, Isabelle. Isabelle Zodden, making a triumphant entry,

taking the podium to my left. And this comic quit playing Jenga after 10 blocks because that was all he could stand, making his debater's debut. It's Montreal's Wasim El Munzer. Wasim, striding across the stage confidently to my right. Debaters, your topic is one that's absolutely pre-histerical.

Museums. Does visiting them make you smarter? Ottawa has so many museums. There's even a museum about Ottawa called the By-Town Museum. I wanted to see the exhibit about the construction on Bank Street. But unfortunately, the display isn't finished yet. And when I asked the curator when it would be, she said, who the hell knows? And then openly wept. Time now for a debate that won't exceed the statue of

limitations. So, whereas their artifacts, displays, and exhibits offer interactive and engaging ways to learn, be it resolved that museums make you smarter. Isabel, you are arguing for this, please. You have two minutes. Starting now, Isabel Zotten. Now, there's only one piece of evidence that we need to know that museums make you smarter. And that is that Donald Trump is currently, trying to ban them. I ask you, what is smarter? Is it having a high degree of mental ability? No. Is it having a large wealth of knowledge? Closer. It's being able to show off to strangers at parties with random, impressive sounding facts. Thank you. That's true. And where do we collect these fun and useless facts? A museum.

And if you use big words like Babylonians or Mesopotamia or xenomorph, that's like the party equivalent of having a master's degree. And if you combine a big word with the intellectual piece de resistance, a date, say something like, Cathasia was a microcontinent that rifted off. Gondwana during the late Paleozoic approximately 538.8 million years ago. Thank you. And it's your party now. I ask you, if museums didn't make you smarter, why would so many schools go to them on field trips? Now, when I went with my 10th grade class to the Royal Ontario Museum, did I learn about the incestuous royal families of Egypt?

No. But did I learn that Martina Pellegrino, names have been changed to protect the innocent, was dating her cousin? Yes. Did I learn about Roman coins? No. Did I learn that Martina was cheating on her cousin with his brother, i.e. her other cousin?

I had never learned so much. You all have never learned so much. I learned all of that in a museum. Thank you. Isabel Zodin, everybody. Yes, that was, I like that, because it started out general with some generalizable facts, and then it really couldn't have gotten much more specific.

Thank you, Isabel. Now, insisting that a dumb person visiting museum exhibits, rarely exhibits smarts, let's hear from Waseem Al Munzer. I used to think, like a fool, museums made you smarter, and I would seek them out on my travels. Now, I don't want to brag. I've traveled all over the world to do comedy. Most of those places have been Ottawa.

Last time I was here, I went to the Canadian Museum of History. I thought, here's a good chance to learn something. I walk right in. The guy at the front says, hey, where are you going? I said, I'm here to learn. I said, it's $24 plus tax. I said, would you look at that? I'm learning something already.

I thought museums were free. I don't know. I went with good scholarly intentions. I walk in, I saw a 40-foot canoe. I said, my word. I wonder what the significance of that canoe is. And then I saw a little placard explaining it. It was a 900-word paragraph,

and I was like, I don't care that much. I've got to be honest. I'm going to assume it floated and move on with my day. It's homework. That's all it is. I've even been to the British Museum. The British Museum is free. I mean, they stole everything in the museum,

so it kind of makes sense, you know. I finally got to see all this stuff they looted from my country of birth, Mississauga. But my parents' country of birth, which is Lebanon, you know, it's free to enter. But when you leave, they ask for a donation. That's how they get you. As I was leaving the British Museum,

three kids, they came up to me. Harry Ron, Hermione, swaddled up to me, and they said, excuse me, sir, would you like to make a donation to the museum? I was like, I feel like I already did. Was that my grandmother's cutlery I saw back there?

It's not even ancient. She's in Lebanon, like, where are my spoons? Who took my spoons? The British Museum has the Rosetta Stone. You know what the Rosetta Stone is? It's like a tablet that they used to... I didn't read the placard. I have no idea.

Wasima Monta, everybody. Yeah. All right, debaters. It is time now for the bare-knuckle round. We're debating whether museums make you smarter. So here's an arrow heads up. If you stay, tuten calm and relaxed, you could T-Rex your opponent's argument by turning this segment into the irony age. Wow. After that one, the others will paleo in comparison. So let's see how displays out, starting now.

The word museum comes from the Greek museon, which means a seat of the muses or a place of contemplation dedicated to the muses, the nine Greek goddesses of the arts and sciences. You want to know when I learned that? My phone told me. That may be true, but, but now, thanks to the rise of artificial intelligence, asking things of your phone is getting less and less reliable. Okay, I googled your name, for example. I looked up Wasim El-Munzer, and Chad GPT thinks that you're either a terrorist or a type of hummus. Can you confirm or deny?

My lawyer has told me not to comment on this one. I will say that one man's spicy hummus is another man's regular hummus. Are we on museums? Are we still on museums? Don't read too much into that. We need a return to practical primary evidence. You know, like if I wanted to know about you instead of Googling you, I could go to the British Museum

because they have your family photo album as part of their permanent display. And I would know for sure. I just wish they had museums about cool stuff that we want to learn about. I looked at the museums. The Museum of War, agriculture, Cold War,

trees? Make a museum people want to go to. Reality TV Museum. TikTok Dance Museum. Golden Retriever Puppy Museum. Monster Truck. Appreciation Museum. I will say they did, briefly in Ottawa, have a temporary display

called the trucker convoy. People didn't like it. It's not very popular. That's right. I forgot about that. I didn't read the placard. That seems like a good place to stop. That's the bare-knuckle round, everybody.

Time now for the firing line. In my hand, I have a list of questions on museums brought to you by the Royal Canadian Mint Museum. Royal Canadian Mint Museum, the only place in Canada where pennies are still worth something. I count that as an applause break, even it was just one person. The Canada Agriculture and Food Museum here in Ottawa recently held an educational event

where volunteers demonstrated how to do what. Isabel? How to identify different types of wheat. And visitors said that it was the best nap they had ever had. Very well received. I will give a point for that. Wasim Amundzer? The correct answer is,

no one knows because no one went. No, the Agriculture and Food Museum recently held an educational event where volunteers demonstrated how to prepare a hide for tanning. Yeah. Also an exhibit at the Ottawa Fetish Museum. A study published in the New York Times

finds that students who spend time in museums develop what? Wasim? Develop into huge nerds. Correct. Isabel? They actually develop an aversion to the New York Times, i.e. critical thinking skills. Correct answer. Critical thinking skills.

One official point. So rare that we get them on this show. I want to acknowledge that. Finish this quote from American novelist Elizabeth Kostova. I believe in walking out of a music. Before what? Isabel? Before the dinosaurs come alive.

That's a good tip. I can give a point for that. Wasim Monser. Before you spend $57 on a tote bag at the gift shop, just so you feel like you've gained something from the experience. Also a good answer. We'll also give a point to that. Elizabeth Kostova says she likes to walk out of a museum before.

out of a museum before the paintings you've seen begin to run together. Important to point out that Elizabeth Kostova likes mushrooms. That's the firing line, everybody. Good points, either side. And it's almost time for our center point theater audience to vote. But first, here again to make no bones about the fact that to him, museums are ancient history. Let's hear again from Waseem Almunzer.

Museums are just something to do. There's something to do for people who want to seem smart. seems smart. You know the type of people who use the word cinema? Elitists who own different for different foods, who wear scarves indoors? People with names like Mortimer, Cornelius, or Ethel. Who needs them, I say? Look at me, I'm smart and I've never even been to the Louver. You think I'll all of a sudden become more smarter if I see the Mama Lisa in person? Museums can't make you smarter. The U.S. has over 33,000 museums. Case in point. does not equal causation, but you know how I know that?

YouTube! I rest my case. Yeah. Rasim Elmunter, everybody. Is against museums? And makes some very strong points. Crowd-liken it. But let's see here again with her belief

that by visiting museums you can fix stupid, let's hear again from Isabel Zotten. I have a daughter who's four years old and she goes with Eden in the museum every Sunday and she says that her favorite animal is an anomal caris, canadensis. That's true. I have a friend who is 37.

He is a PhD, and he thinks French fries taste better reheated. My daughter is way smarter than that guy. Because of museums. Some people might argue, in this modern, high-tech world, we want games, we want experience. Museums are boring.

And to this, I say, Good. We're all permanently plugged into a glowing dopamine overload that's destroying our brains 24 hours a day. All right? It's unnatural. So sit down in a comfortable, climate-controlled museum and stare at a 2,000-year-old brick from the Han Dynasty. Be bored and feel your brain healing itself. Thank you. Yeah. Isabelle Zottin. Interesting.

Audience, it is up to you to decide by applause. Who agrees that when it comes to betting that museums make you smarter, the smart money's on Isabel, Isabel Zotten? Nice love for Isabel. And who agreed with Wasim that angels fear to tread in museums, but fools rush in, Wasim Al Munzer? No recount required on this one. The winner is Wasim Al Munzer.

Museums do not make you smarter. Not make you smarter. Big hand for female Munzer and Isabel Zodden, everybody. Hey debaters, listeners. Well, there's no debating it. We'd love it if you could hit the follow button on our podcast. That way, you won't miss an episode. And if you already follow us, thank you. This program is brought to you in part by Speck Savers. Every day, your eyes go through a lot, squinting at screens, driving into the bright sun, reading in dim light, even late-night drives. That's why regular eye exams are so important. At spec savers, every standard eye exam includes an advanced OCT 3D eye scan, technology that helps independent optometrists detect eye and health

conditions at their earliest stages. Take care of your eyes. Book your eye exam at spec savers today from just $99, including an OCT scan. Book at specksavers.cavers.caps.cavers.com prices may vary by location. Visit specksavers.cavers.cai to learn more. Hi, Steve Patterson here, and I love a good argument. So here we go. Is Manitoba a prairie province or a maritime one? It might sound like a joke, but University of Manitoba researchers are seriously exploring how a changing Hudson Bay could reshape Canada's economy. Dr. Fay Wang and his team are studying how increased Arctic shipping could be done responsibly and sustainably. Learn about Manitoba's surprising place in global trade by checking out the University of Manitoba's podcast, What's the big idea? All right, Ottawa, I have just one question for you. Are you ready to meet your next pair of debaters? Then so we shall.

This comic filmed herself getting arrested at a protest rally and was dragged off, kicking, and streaming. It's Toronto's Deborah Kemet. Come on out, Deborah. One of our very favorites, Deb taking the stage to my left. And this comic's explanation, of Yin and Yang isn't half bad.

It's Ottawa's Don Kelly. Don Kelly, hometown hero Don Kelly. This is a good one. Hey Steve. Your topic is one that we think rules. Rules. Are they meant to be broken? There's a new rule I'd like to make.

Canadian senators should have to show up to work at least a couple times a week. Right now it's like some of the them don't even know where the chamber is. Because thanks to ongoing construction here, the last time they went, it was in a different place. And another new rule, if you get a government contract and can't complete it on time, you owe every taxpayer in the country a buck a day. Am I right? Now for a debate that I'll happily rule over. So, whereas going against them encourages critical and independent thinking, fosters creativity and can lead to

positive change, be it resolved that rules are meant to be broken. Deborah, you are arguing for this, please. You have two minutes. Starting now, Deborah Kimmett. Every rule I followed changed over the course of my lifetime. Wait 30 minutes after eating before swimming. Wrong. Never jaywalk. I lived in NAP, in Ontario. We had one light and no traffic. If you, you You didn't jaywalk, you never got home. Don't drink until you're 21. Then it changed to 18. Then it was back to 19.

You could go into the army, but you couldn't have a ryan coke. When I was Catholic, we had to cover our heads when we went to Mass. If we forgot our hats, we had to bobby pin a Kleenex to our head. I cut mine in the shirt. cut mine in the shape of a snowflake. We couldn't eat meat on Friday or we'd go to hell and then they cancelled hell and we could eat meat.

So the first hot dog I threw up just in case they changed the rules in mid-bite. Yes, I was afraid to swallow a weener. Before this show I was warned repeatedly not to use the word. Weiner. Honorable member. They took 20 minutes to vacuum the rec room. I vacuumed for five and spent the rest of the time sucking belly fat with the hose. Breaking rules is all we ever remembered. We remember the rule breakers, like Eve. God said, eat anything, but not the apples. Eve said, are you kidding? That's stupid. And then she She made a pie.

We got pie because of Eve. So everybody remembers Eve, because she was the original rule breaker who stood there and took it like a weener. Weiner. Weiner. Weiner. See, it's fun. Thank you.

Deborah Kimmett. Pull-in point from our rule breaker, Deborah Kimmett. Now, here to explain why he makes it a rule breaker. rule to play by the rules. It's the one who wants to rule over this debate. Don Kelly. Yeah, I used to think that rules were made to be broken like eggs and wedding vows. It's been 20 years, people. That's my own 20th anniversary of the debaters. But rules give us comfort that there's safety and order in the world. Even in school, I was following the rules. I only got in trouble because I have mild OCD, and no one knew what it was then.

So the teacher would get mad. I was always fidgeting, lining up my pens and pencils, straightening pictures. She got so mad one time. She made me right on the chalkboard. I do not have OCD 300 times. But I was going to do that anyway. But now some people think every single rule brought in

is government overreach, an infringement on my rights. I can't walk in the Nova Scotia woods during the worst forest fire season ever. That's it. I'm going into the woods, says the guy who's never once gone for a walk in the woods. And just look at the words themselves. If you rule, you're awesome. If you're broken, you're probably a senator's fan.

Thank you. We got ourselves a debate and let's keep going. It's time now. For the bare-knuckle round, we're debating whether rules should be broken, so the anarchy to success. Provocateur into your opponent. Until we need to ask, is there a doctrine in the house? I'll protocol it like I see it.

But by law, you must begin starting now. Deb, you're talking about being a rule breaker, but your blue blazer and pantsuit doesn't exactly scream raging antifa. I don't think you should insult this. I bought this at Joe Fresh, along with my salad. And it's actually the hell's angel colors. You didn't know that, but never mind. The invisible rules, though, I think that people break are the worst. You know, the rules that are in people's head. Like, you're just talking to a two-year-old and they freak out because you put the fish sticks next to the peas, you know? Those invisible rules like date night where you're supposed to get lucky. And no one knew that.

that, you know? Absolutely. First Nations have rules that not a lot of people know about. Like, it's not a well-known rule. For example, no vaping in the sweat lodge. I'll mark that down. Get it, Deb, I totally get it. You mentioned church.

My wife took me to Catholic Church once. It's all rules. I didn't know any of them. And like, you just get ordered around the whole service. Like the priest is some kind of spiritual square dance caller, right? It's all rise. Now, be seen. Now sing this hymn, now say this prayer, now swing your partner around and around.

Take communion, sit back down, right? Like my first time, I'm like, whoa, whoa, father, hey, who died and left you in charge? All right. Half the rules that are created, you would never remember in an emergency. You know, they make a rule that if you sit in the emergency aisle, you're supposed to save everybody before you leave the plane. I'm not doing that. I'm leaving. Well, that's exactly what I mean, Deb. When people forget the rules, discard them,

it is not some libertarian utopia. It's deadly chaos, and I say that as someone who often drives on the Quebec side of the river. All right, that's the fair enough around, everybody. It is time now for the firing line. In my hand, I have a list of questions on breaking rules brought to you by hitchhikers. Hitchhikers.

They always follow the rules. of thumb. In June 2025, the Toronto Star reported the federal government broke rules for nine years when it did what? Don. When they supported Ottawa's project to develop an efficient and effective light rail transit system. When they kept letting Sophie Trudeau sing, he's with Katie Perry now. Too soon? No, two points. Toronto Star reported the federal government broke rules for nine years when it awarded $100 million in a rive-can contracts without proper oversight.

According to bleacherreport.com, what's the dumbest rule in all of sports? Deborah. Protesting a called strike and ball. If a player can scratch his balls and spit, why can't he take a moment to curse out the ref? I love everything about that right up to the point where you call the umpire the ref. Oh.

I loved it. I have no notes. I have no notes. Perfect. Don Kelly. The dumbest drill in all of sports. I have no idea, but I'm pretty sure it's coming to the CFL next year.

Good point. All right. Two points, Don Kelly. Yeah. The dumbest rule in all of sports, according to bleacher report.com, is that a baseball batter can run to first base after striking out if the catcher drops the ball,

which is a stupid rule, but not as stupid as the fact that the manager and coaches wear uniforms. You're not going into the game, buddy. Readers Digest's list of 14 obscure etiquette rules that you probably break all the time includes gossiping, overusing fragrances, not giving an RSVP, and announcing what?

Deborah. Announcing that you did shrooms over and over and over again. Don Kelly. Announcing a land acknowledgement with no intention of actually giving any land back. Oh, my people find that very rude. I'm going to give you however many points you

want for that. Reader's Digest list of 14 obscure etiquette rules, gossiping, overusing fragrances, not giving an RSP, and announcing your bathroom breaks. Don't do that, although I feel like the staff at Reader's Digest does eat a lot of fiber.

And that is the firing line, everybody. We are racing towards that magical time when our Center Point Theater audience votes, but first here again to tell us why, if you live by the rules, you'll always be golden, Let's hear again from Don Kelly.

Rules can work for you. Now, I'm indigenous. Any indigenous people here tonight? Yeah. All right, I'll be quick because of more than three of us gather in one place. The Ottawa police considered a gang and the show gets shut down. And I was going to use that rule when we had to deal with the worst rule breakers in history in Ottawa, the Freedom Convoy. Right?

Three weeks they occupied. our fair city, I was so sick of it. I was going to get two of my indigenous friends together. We were going to go down there with ski masks and waving Mohawk warrior flags. We would have had that protest shut down in five minutes. They'd be sending in the dogs, tear gas, right? Oh, but when it's white people protesting, right? They get a warning. Yeah, be careful in the bouncy castle. You don't want to hurt yourself. The cops weren't even following their own rules, and that's why I say everyone needs to follow the rules because rules rule. Thank you. All right. Don Kelly. Well done. Now, here to tell us why she doesn't break a sweat when she breaks a rule. Let's hear again from our resident rule breaker,

Deb Kimet. The truth is, the higher up you go, the less rules apply to you. Pay your taxes on time unless you're rich, then never mind. You can't get a less. in your own riding, you go to another province. There is no justice in this city of Ottawa. In this city, if you are a civil servant, you will be ticketed if you idle at a stop sign. But if you're a foreign diplomat who runs over someone that idled at that same stop sign,

the police can't touch you. I say enough of this obedience. Good obedience. Tonight, Ottawa, on your way home, tonight steal a red and white license plate. Toyota. One of your hundreds and hundreds of one-way streets. Go on a tulip-picking rampage. And when you get caught with a bouquet on your hands, you declare diplomatic immunity.

And then you can take a bouquet home to that one you love, and you might have. and you might just get a little wiener tonight. Thank you. Yeah, Deborah Kimmett getting the Ottawa crowd riled up. Look out, diplomats. All right, it's time to vote by applause. How many of you, like Deborah, rule in favor of breaking the rules? Deborah Kimet!

And how many of you fell ruling madly, deeply in love with rule lover, Don Kelly? This crowd, everybody. Well, that's all for this week. I'm Steve Patterson saying some rules were made to be broken, and so are all new attached pairs of wooden chopsticks. I'll argue with you again soon, Canada. Good night. The Debaters is created by Richard Syde. This week's episode was produced by Nicole Calendar, Chloe Edbrook, Dean Jenkinson, and Graham Clark. With continuity by Graham Clark, Diana Francis, and Gary Jones. Technical production by James Pirella and Pascal Jolbin. Story editing by Gary Jones.

With special thanks to Katie Ellen Humphreys, David Pride, and Emily Ferrier. Executive producer of CBC Radio Comedy is Lee Pitts. And thanks to everyone at the Meridian Theatres at Centerpoint in Ottawa. For more CBC podcasts, go to cBC.ca.com.