The Debaters - Is Canada’s national anthem the best? And does everything happen for a reason?

Episode Date: June 26, 2025

It’s all about true patriot love when we ask if Canada’s national anthem is at the top, and a fateful debate questions whether everything happens for a reason.Featuring: Jon Steinberg, Ali Hassan, Courtney Gilmour and Nour Hadidi.

I'm Joshua Jackson, and I'm returning for the Audible original series, Oracle, Season 3, Murder at the Grandview. Six forty-somethings took a boat out a few days ago. One of them was found dead. The hotel, the island, something wasn't right about it. Psychic agent Nate Russo is back on the case, and you know when Nate's killer instincts are required, anything's possible.

This world's gonna eat you alive. Listen to Oracle Season 3, Murder at the Grandview, Hey, debaters listeners. This is Nicole Callender, one of the producers on the show. We're on a summer break right now, so you're about to listen to a debate we aired earlier this season. It's actually pretty relevant for the Canada Day weekend as we're talking anthems and whether the Canadian anthem is the best. We'll be back in September with brand new episodes and to kickstart our 20th season. Thanks for listening. Ready to kick it from Ottawa, the host city of the 2024 Pan American Muay Thai Championship,

it's the Debater! The Debater is where comedians fight with facts and funny and this audience picks the winner. Now here's a man who packs quite a punch, Steve... ...Patterson! Hey! Thanks, Graham Clark! Hello, Canada! And welcome back to The Debaters! Always great to be back here in Ottawa, the birthplace of so many Canadian celebrities. It's true. Margaret Atwood, Rich Little, Dan Aykroyd, Bruce Coburn, Norm MacDonald, Alanis Morissette,

and of course, all the Greens, Tom, Nancy, and Lorne. Way to go, Ottawa! True, these are all true things. I'm from London, Ontario. And so are those people, I guess. When you Google famous people from London, Ontario, it's Ryan Gosling, Rachel McAdams, and Steve Patterson. I am omitting a lot of names between Rachel and myself.

But actually, we're closer than most think. They starred together in The Notebook while I still make notes in the same binder that CBC rented me 18 years ago. So, almost the same. Now it's time to meet two debaters who are celebrities in their own minds. This comic thinks that adding just parsley, sage and rosemary to your recipe is a total waste of time. It's Ottawa's John Steinberg! Come on out here, John! There he is, taking his place to the podium to my right, enjoying the entry across the

stage. And this comic's comedy is right up our alley. It's Toronto's Ali Hassan. Come on, Ali. There he is. Hello, friend. Welcome back. All right, debaters. Your topic is one that will make you stand up and cheer, we hope.

National anthems. Is Canada's the greatest? Let's see. I'd like to give a shout out now, by the way, to late Liberal MP, Morel Belanger, for pushing a bill in the year 2016 to change the lyrics to, in all of us command from all thy sons command. I'll tell you why I like that. As a father of fierce daughters, I appreciate it. But what I don't like is when our national anthem is butchered by American singers. Like in the year 2023, an American,

instead of the words from far and wide, saying, we stand our eyes. Stand our eyes? Did he mean standardized? Like standardized health care? Is that what he was trying to say? Anyway, it's time for a debate we can all stand up and be proud of. So, whereas it has a distinct and memorable melody, evokes patriotism in two languages, and is receptive to change, be it resolved that Canada's is the best national anthem.

John, you arguing for this please, my friend. You have two minutes. Starting now, John Steinberg. ["The Greatest Showman"] ["The Greatest Showman"] Things are instantly better when you put an O in front of them. ["The Greatest Showman"] ["The Greatest Showman"] ["The Greatest Showman"]

["The Greatest Showman"] ["The Greatest Showman"] ["The Greatest Showman"] ["The Greatest Showman"] O. Henry... ["The Greatest Showman"] Oh, Henry is a delicious chewy chocolate bar. But Henry is just some guy. Are you Speedwagon? No thank you. Oreo Speedwagon.

Yes please. And what about ranges? You can't eat ranges, but oh ranges. My point is... Laughter When I first started doing this show, the green room had more snacks. Laughter Applause Now I know it's not considered a Canadian quality to be super patriotic, but you've got to admit, we have the very best national anthem in the whole world.

Now Ali is going to say that, oh Canada is a terrible song. And sure, I'll give them that. It doesn't have to be a great song to be a great anthem. That's an important distinction. We don't listen to the anthem because we want to. We listen to the anthem because it is our duty. Whenever I listen, I'm reminded of the sacrifice of all the Canadians who came before me who had to listen to that same national anthem. You don't want a cool anthem like the Americans have.

You don't want a cool anthem like the Americans have. You don't want a cool anthem like the Americans have. You don't want a cool anthem like the Americans have. Jimi Hendrix rocking out to it at Woodstock, lame. Jimi Hendrix rocking out to it at Woodstock, lame. Jimi Hendrix rocking out to it at Woodstock, lame. Jimi Hendrix rocking out to it at Woodstock, lame. Jimi Hendrix rocking out to it at Woodstock, lame.

Jimi Hendrix rocking out to it at Woodstock, lame. Jimi Hendrix rocking out to it at Woodstock, lame. Jimi Hendrix rocking out to it at Woodstock, lame. Jimi Hendrix rocking out to it at Woodstock, lame. Jimi Hendrix rocking out to it at Woodstock, lame. Jimi Hendrix rocking out to it at Woodstock, lame. Jimi Hendrix rocking out to it at Woodstock, lame. Jimi Hendrix rocking out to it at Woodstock, lame. Jimi Hendrix rocking out to it at Woodstock, lame. Jimi Hendrix rocking out to it at Woodstock, lame. Jimi Hendrix rocking out to it at Woodstock?

Lame. We don't need that. We have our own Canadian rock stars, like Neil Young. Yeah. Who, not to be outdone, also did an electric guitar cover of the American National Anthem. My point is... Rock is supposed to be the music of rebellion.

National anthems are about standing still, being respectful, not wearing a hat. Rocking out to your national anthem is like getting drunk with your parents. You can do it once or twice, but you should feel embarrassed about it afterwards. Thank you. John Steinberg, ladies and gentlemen, his opening argument on why Canada's is the best national anthem in case you've just tuned in and weren't sure what that was about.

Now here singing a totally different tune about Canada's national anthem, let's welcome Ali Hassan. Hello Ottawa. I'm going to ask you to remain seated as the theatre plays our national anthem. Alright, let's cut it right there. First issue, why did you remain seated? Huh? You're proud Canadians. You sat because I asked you to?

No, you sat because our anthem is weak. Okay? Secondly, oh Canada, who starts a song with oh? Was somebody surprised by us? Oh, Canada, what are you doing here? Was somebody cheating on Canada's wife? Oh, Canada, I didn't expect you home this early. You know what's a great anthem?

The French anthem. Oh, I'm a citizen, That's a great anthem, the French anthem. Os alms, citoyens, formez vos bataillons, marchons, marchons. I feel like murdering somebody right now. That is amazing. Or the Argentinian anthem. Oremos con gloria morir. I learned Spanish for this debate, by the way. That was a massive waste of time.

Or the Pakistani anthem. Boxers ameen shah, ba ba ba ba ba ba ba. Sing it with me. Kishkadeh haseen shah, ba. You got it. I know what you're thinking. You got it. I know what you're thinking. You're saying, but Ali, our anthem has two official languages.

Big deal. The South African national anthem has five official languages. One of them is Xhosa. The one with the clicking. The one with the clicking is one of the languages. That one. You want to impress me? You write me a Canadian anthem with words in English, French, Punjabi, Tagalog, Cree, Ojibwe, and Inuktitut.

Thank you. All right, Ali Hassan, pretty good points. This debate might come down to your interpretation of the word oh Hey debaters, it's time now for the bare-knuckle round we're debating Canada's national anthem so for better or verse All of us command That you hit your opponents with some real singers the audience decides which of you they true patriot love, and which of you they can't stanza. Time for one of you to porter la croix,

and the other to stand en garde now. Ding! Applause First, I want to point out that not only did I stand up while Ali was playing the anthem, but I'm actually still standing. And I'll remain standing until someone brings me a chair. Alright, Steve is the only one who gets a chair. John, we're trying to talk about anthems, by the way, and our anthem is toothless.

The American anthem. I mean, that country can suck an egg, obviously, but that anthem, the picture that it paints, I'm riding bareback on a horse with Kevin Costner by the end of that thing. You know what I mean? Is that... Is that not the right... I'm not sure that that's the song you're talking about. That's... Yeah, that doesn't sound right.

I mean... All right, the Canadian anthem was just changed recently. Why are we going to commit to memory an anthem that's not even finished? It's still a work in progress. I like an anthem that recognizes it has room for improvement. Laughter and applause

John, let me waste your time with one more fact about anthems. Laughter The anthem of Myanmar is basically two songs. One starts as this Burmese folk song, and then it transitions into a military march with orchestral music. It's like the Bohemian Rhapsody of anthems. I mean, that is an anthem, man.

Wow. I'd like to hear that. Yeah. Do we got that one queued up? We don't have that one queued up. Do we got that one queued up? We don't have that one queued up. All right. That's the bare knuckle round. Oh, well done.

It's time now for the firing line. In my hand I have a list of questions on Canada's unofficial anthem, the Maple Leaf Forever, a passionate song about how long thousands of Canadians will wait for Toronto to not win the Stanley Cup. According to an August 2023 public opinion poll, 41% of English-speaking Canadians support the idea of making what lyric change to Oh Canada? Ellie?

God keep our weed glorious and free. It's a good guess. Half a point. John Steinberg? Replacing all the lyrics with better lyrics. Pretty good idea. Four points. Specifically, changing our home and native land to our home

on native land. Billboard.com says one of the worst ever American national anthem performances was Roseanne Barr at a 1990 baseball game where she screeched the lyrics, spat on the pitcher's mound, and what else? John. Something racist? Pretty good guess, John. Close.

Grabbed her own crotch. Before Newfoundland joined Confederation, it had its own national anthem, which is now its provincial anthem. What is it called? John? Anything by Great Big Sea. Probably. Yep. Ali Hassan? I don't know, but if you ask me a half an hour later, I might. Half an hour later.

Alright. Newfoundland's own national anthem, which is now its provincial anthem, is called, Ode to Newfoundland. It's right there in the title if you think about it. And that's the firing line, everybody. Alright, here we go. Home stretch time. And it's almost time for our Centrepoint Theatre audience to place their votes.

But first, here again to tell us why he won't stand for anyone celebrating Canada's national anthem as the best, it's Ali Hassan. Alright, Ottawa, I think we got off on the wrong foot. I'm going to ask you now, those who can, please rise for the incredible national anthem. Oh, France. Oh, it's so good. It's so good. Oh. Oh, I wish they could see that at home. That's the fastest.

That's the fastest I've ever seen a group of people sit down in Ottawa. I wish the disappointment was palpable through the radio, too. That was really something. Yes, I am the jerk up here. I am the jerk up here. I am the disappointment was palpable through the radio, too. That was really something. That was great.

Yes, I am the jerk up here criticizing our national anthem. However, I was also the guy advocating for an anthem that embraces our Indigenous languages. And I want you to be mindful of that at the end when you clap. If you clap too much for John, listeners might say, wow, it sounds like Ottawa doesn't really care for our First Nations.

I'm not saying that's the case. I'm just saying that's what it'll sound like. Just a little something to think about, Ottawa. Beautiful, inclusive, progressive-minded Ottawa. Thank you. Ah, you saw it. Oh, you tried to trick them by standing and then they sat and you tried to trick them again. Now, here to sing the praises of O Canada once again, it's Canada and Ottawa's own John Steinberg. I know a lot has been said tonight about how terrible O'Canada is.

Some of it by me. But the French version is actually way better. There's a part that says, for your arm knows how to wield the sword. Yeah, Canada has a sword in their version. And an arm. In the English version, we're pleading with God to keep our land strong and free.

Meanwhile, French Canada is a badass, sword-wielding, one-armed assassin. We should all be using the French lyrics instead of the ridiculous word salad that we've been reciting all these years. And for God's sakes, if you do have a glowing heart, go see your doctor immediately. Thank you. John Steinberg, ladies and gentlemen, loves O Canada, still thinks there could be some improvements, but loves it. Let's see what the audience has decided by applause,

who answered the call to Ali's anti-anthem anthem, Ali Hassan. All right. And who was more attuned with John and scored him 1-0 Canada? John Steinberg! Now the audience has spoken. They believe our anthem's the best and they believe John Steinberg wins this debate. Big hand for John Steinberg and Ali Hassan, everybody! You're listening to CBC Radio's The Debaters. Want access to bonus content and information on upcoming tour dates?

Then be sure to follow us on Instagram at at CBC Debaters. I'm Joshua Jackson and I'm returning for the Audible original series, Oracle Season 3, Murder at the Grand View. Six forty-somethings took a boat out a few days ago. One of them was found dead. The hotel, the island, something wasn't right about it. Psychic agent Nate Russo is back on the case and you know when Nate's killer instincts are required, anything's possible. This world's gonna eat you alive. Listen to Oracle Season 3, Murder at the Grand View, now on Audible. Book club on Monday.

Gym on Tuesday. Date night on Wednesday. Out on the town on Thursday. Quiet night in on Friday. It's good to have a routine. And it's good for your eyes too. Because with regular comprehensive eye exams at Specsavers, you'll know just how healthy they are.

Visit Specsavers.ca to book your next eye exam. Eye exams provided by independent optometrists. Are you ready to meet your next pair of debaters? Listen to that! Are you ready to meet your next pair of debaters? Listen to this! Alright! This comic was scheduled for a week's work on a Christmas movie, but it wrapped early. It's Toronto's Courtney Gilmore!

Courtney Gilmore, one of our favourites, taking her place at the podium to my left. And this comic entered a hedge trimming race and went at a pretty good clip. It's Toronto's Noor Hadidi. Noor Hadidi, taking her place, striding across to my right. Hi Steve. Hi Noor, welcome back. Debaters, your topic has a date with destiny. Does everything happen for a reason?

This is deep. Some people believe in a higher power. I certainly do, especially when my fuse box shorts out and I suddenly have lower power. It makes me believe that a higher power is really important, until Ontario Hydro sends me a higher power bill, leaving me feeling powerless until my wife tells me to take a power nap, so I do, right after I turn off all the power, which is a bit of a power trip. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Time now for a powerhouse debate. So, whereas choosing to believe life's events aren't random provides comfort, purpose, and strength, be it resolved, everything happens for a reason. Courtney, you're arguing for this, please. You have two minutes.

Starting now, Courtney Gilmore. Thank you. Thank you, Steve. In a world of chaos, fear and confusion, there exists another side of the coin, one that consists of angel numbers, mystical synchronicities, and finding out that your cheating ex-boyfriend's hairline One that consists of angel numbers, mystical synchronicities, and finding out that your cheating ex-boyfriend's hairline

has receded another two inches. (*Laughter*) Everything happens for a reason. For example, Nor came here tonight for a reason, to lose this debate. (*Laughter*) a reason to lose this debate. I know there are many circumstances today that make this platitude a tough sell. But think of it this way.

You don't have to believe that everything happens for a good reason. For example, five billionaires boarded a structurally unsound vessel so they could go underwater and visit another structurally unsound vessel. They all died because it was a dumbass idea. That's the reason. That's the reason. If everything happens for a reason, yes, we naturally wonder who's pulling the strings and what are they thinking? How could they allow bad things?

But if everything is random and happens by chance, there's no one to blame. chance, there's no one to blame. It's like ordering your favorite pizza and instead receiving a quinoa salad. When you tell the restaurant they screwed up your order, you want to hear them say, oh, I'm so sorry. We screwed up your order. Here's a free pizza. Not, huh, that's random. Here's a free pizza, not, huh, that's random."

I may not understand it, but I know in my heart that there's a reason the guy that I went out with three months ago stopped responding to my texts. And I believe that as soon as he is done nursing his bipolar ferret back to health, he will tell me that reason. I choose to believe that everything happens for a reason, for the same reason I use a weighted blanket. It calms me down and helps me hide from monsters. Thank you.

Courtney Gilmore. Courtney Gilmore believes that everything happens for a reason. Now here to prove that her appearance here tonight is nothing more than a happy accident. Let's hear from Noor Hadidi. Thank you, Steve. And it's true, I do not believe that everything happens for a reason. I neither should you, Ottawa. Now don't get me wrong, it's a nice sentiment. It's comforting, like believing there's caffeine in a Tim Hortons coffee. Sorry, did I say coffee? I meant mud water.

I agree. You agree. Thank you, sir. Listen, everything happens for a reason. It's just another random saying that boomers made up to help them cope with the reality they've left us all in. Yes. Thank you. them cope with the reality they've left us all in. Yes.

Thank you. It's like when someone says, trust your gut. I can't trust my gut. I have IBS. Yeah. If I trust my gut, I'm gonna crap and puke at the same time and nobody wants that. I can't squat in public, you know? I have an untied shoelace.

I'm like, this is it. I'm far from home. I either trip or crap, and trip it is, my friends. Trip it is. Yeah. No one talks about IBS, by the way. It's just me and Jamie Lee Curtis. That's it.

And she's paid by Activia. I'm doing it for the people. Okay. I'm sorry to say this, Courtney, but if indeed everything happens for a reason, then I guess the reason I'm here tonight is to point out that, you know what? You didn't lose those texts because of your dates bipolar ferret Courtney. He's probably ghosting you because your idea of a romance is making fun of five people who died in the ocean. Searching for hidden meanings and every little mishap is exhausting. When bad

things happen don't look for the universe's secret message because just like us, the universe is probably looking for a washroom nearby. Thank you. Noor Hadidi ladies and gentlemen. It's time now for the bare-knuckle round. We're debating if everything happens for a reason. So let me serendipit tee you up. Cut your opponent off at the Destinies, all the while not saying anything that makes you sound random and dumber. Let's find out if this was all really meant to be starting

now. I know it's hard to believe that everything happens for a reason, but it's like when you're watching a TV show. You don't know where the story is going, but you have to have faith that it's all going to come together in the end. How frustrating would it be if a show was just random events with no conclusion? It'd be like watching Lost. LAUGHTER The Boomers, they appreciated that reference. Thank you, Courtney.

Listen, I grew up... Any other Arabs here tonight? No, of course not. LAUGHTER Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey! Hey, we can edit. LAUGHTER Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, we can edit. I grew up Arab and in the Arab culture we believe in something called the evil eye. Everyone's aware of this?

Okay, now they show up. We believe in the evil eye, right? And that's because we're trying to assign meaning where it doesn't exist, you know? Like we believe if someone looks at you wrong, like that's the reason you're in jail, you know? And that's not the case. It's because you don't know how to drive. That's what it is.

Nora's got just very low vibrational dark energy, so I actually didn't hear anything she just said. I'm just so high vibrational over here. I just can't. Okay. Do you want the last word on this? No. All right. All right.

That was the bear-knock around. I love it. Time now for the firing line in my hand. I have a list of questions on everything happening for a reason brought to you by old grapes. Old grapes. To them everything happens for a raisin. Yeah, yep. That hurt you, didn't it? What is the second part of the title of Professor Kate Bowler's book, Everything Happens for a Reason, and what?

Courtney. And that's why I killed my husband. Getting very dark. I'm sorry, could you repeat the title, Steve? What is the second part of the title of Professor Kate Bowler's book, Everything Happens for a Reason and What? Nor Hadidi. And the Chamber of Secrets.

I like that. I do like that. Three points. Everything Happens for a Reason and Other Lies I've Loved. I guarantee she's on other lies I've loved. I guarantee she's on LinkedIn. I guarantee it. Wealth management expert John M. Jennings says you can find peace with the idea of randomness by reminding yourself that what? Nora? You know, as a Muslim, I'm almost always randomly selected at the airport, so...

Thank you. I'm comfortable with the idea of randomness. It's funny, but also partially true, one point. Courtney Gilmore? That all your enemies will die someday. What is happening on this episode? Uh, that all your enemies will die someday. What is happening on this episode? The actual answer is, there's not only bad luck, but also good luck.

But Courtney is a different style of management, that's all. Aristotle not only believed that everything happens for a reason, but that every experience was designed to do what? Courtney? To be documented on Instagram. Yeah, probably true. Give a point for that. Noor Hadidi.

Drain my bank account under the iron fist of capitalism. I'm not richer than I think. Thank you, Scotiabank. under the iron fist of capitalism. I'm not richer than I think. Thank you, Scotiabank. Three points for that one. The actual answer, every experience was designed to shape you into the ultimate and greatest version of yourself,

but I liked your answer better. That is the firing line, everybody. We are coming down the back straight now where our Centrepoint Theatre audience will have to place their votes. But first, here again to remind us that life happens because that's the way the fortune cookie crumbles. Let's hear again from Noor Hadidi. Ottawa, not everything is part of some cosmic grand plan.

Sometimes life just throws you curveballs, and instead of figuring out why, let's focus on dodging them. Or at least pretending they're not hitting us in the face. Think about all the random and ridiculous things that happen, you know? Like when an old man turns 98, wins the lottery, and dies the next day. Come on Ottawa, it's like Ray-ay! On your wedding day, come on boomers and a free ride! It's the good advice! Come on young man, sing. I can see you. Thought it figures.

Thank you. Have a good night. Noor Hadidi, wrapping it all up with a pretty ironic closing argument. Thank you Noor. Now here to convince us why it stands to reason that she's the voice of reason, let's hear again from Courtney Gilmore. Oh, Courtney is bringing me something. It appears to be a nice rock. It's a crystal for good vibes, Steve.

Oh, wow. I could use those. Thank you. HHH. I got it at Michael's. Anyway. HH. HH. HH. HH. HH. HH. HH.

HH. HH. Now, I was born missing both hands and one leg, and some might say, Courtney, how can you, of all people, believe that everything happens for a reason? Well, I'll tell you, Onewa. Thanks to my disability, men do everything for me.

audience laughter Have never cleaned a toilet in my life. Never will. Can I do it? Yeah, but my boyfriend doesn't need to know that. Okay? He's cleaning the bathroom. I'm in the living room solving a Rubik's Cube. Life is great for me.

Okay? It's hard to believe that there's a grand force or divine being out there who has a justifiable answer to everything that goes on in the world. But Ottawa, I urge you to consider this. Maybe God's pet ferret is really sick and he's going to get back to us with a plan super

soon. Thank you. Courtney Gilmore. Courtney Gilmore, ladies and gentlemen, stands for reason, that she's the voice of reason. It's it. It's time to vote by applause. Who felt that Courtney's pro-reason ramblings surpassed everyone's reasonable expectations? Courtney Gilmore!

A lot of love for Courtney. Okay. And who thought there was simply no reason not to vote for Noor, Noor Hadidi? Close. It's pretty close. Nice support for each side. But I'm going to give this one to Noor Hadidi, ladies and gentlemen. Not everything happens for a reason.

Big hand for Noor Hadidi and Courtney Gilmore. Well, that's all for this week. I'm Steve Patterson saying if everything does happen for a reason, big hand for Nora Dady and Courtney Gilmore! Well that's all for this week. I'm Steve Patterson saying if everything does happen for a reason, then I don't need to finish this thought. I'll argue with you again soon. Canada, goodnight! The Debaters is created by Richard Side. This week's episode was produced by Nicole Callender, Chloe Edbrooke, Dean Jenkinson and Graham Clark, with continuity by Graham Clark, Diana Francis and Gary Jones. Technical production by James Forella and Pascal Jobin. Story editing by Gary Jones. With special thanks to Katie Ellen Humphries, Emily Ferrier and David Pride. Executive producer

of CBC Radio Comedy is Lee Pitts. And thanks to everyone at the Centerpoint Theatre in Ottawa.