The Debaters - Is imitation the sincerest form of flattery? Should everyone go to therapy?

Episode Date: June 4, 2026

Is copying the ultimate compliment? This Hour Has 22 Minutes’s Chris Wilson makes a good impression with his pro-plagiarism argument, but Sean Cullen says there’s nothing worse than a cheap imitation of the real thing. Next, we’re asking if everybody needs therapy. Nikki Payne claims we could all use some time on the counselling couch, but Ashwyn Singh refuses to talk it out.Featuring: Chris Wilson, Sean Cullen, Nikki Payne, and Ashwyn Singh.

Let's see if Toronto advisors know their life insurance providers. Hey there, who offers term plus life insurance a flexible solution with really low premiums? Oh, uh, Beneva. Correct. Who makes it easier to protect your clients with high approval rates and several built-in benefits? Veniva. You got it. Who offers whole life insurance with a whole lot of cash value? Beneva. Am I on TV?

No, not today. Looks like people are starting to know Beneva pretty well. You're stronger with the right partner, Beneva. This is a CBC podcast. Hey Canada, we'll never take you for granted. From Winnipeg, home of the Grants Old Mill, it's the debater. There's where comedians fight with facts and funny, and this audience picks the winner. Now here's a man who's won in a billion.

And welcome back to the debaters. We are here in the place where this whole show was born, Manitoba. If you haven't been, you've got to get yourself here. This is the middle of it all. And in modern Manitoba, well, it's modern Manitoba. Well, it's modern Manitoba unless you attend the Cooks Creek medieval festival, where they party like it's the year 1399. Every second summer, people dress in armor and medieval costumes

and take part in contests like jousting and feasting on turkey legs. Two separate events, I'm assured. And I would love to make it up there one night. If you didn't like that one, Just get out now. It's time to meet two debaters who are here joust for laughs. This comic brought parasites to a Price's Right taping

because he wanted to be a game show host. It's This Hour has 22 minutes, Chris Wilson. Wilson, there he is. Thank you. Hello, my friend. Taking his place just to my left here. Yes. And this comic writes backwards poems

in what he calls reverse. It's Toronto's Sean Cullen, making his way across the stage purposefully to my right. Gentlemen, your topic is one that you might want to make a copy of imitation. Is it truly the sincerest form of flattery? One person thinks so. And that's enough for us to keep going. Not a lot of people know, but I have copied a lot of what I do hosting this show from my favorite host. He's charming, quick-wooded, and he looks great and green. In fact, I thought we could imitate his signature style to kick off this show. Hey, Canada, it's your favorite funny battle of laughs and logic. Here's your host with the most. Time now for a debate that might get

mimeographic. So, whereas being copied stems from admiration and signals others value the example set, be it resolved, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Chris, you are arguing for this, please. You have two minutes. Starting now, Chris Wilson. Thank you very much, Steve. I would like to conduct an experiment. Steve, will you repeat after me? Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Immutation is the sincerest form of flattery. Aw, thanks, Steve.

I'm flattered. My point is immediately proved. The debate It is over. But I will continue. Another experiment. Audience. I am going to imitate somebody, and you can tell me if you think it's flattering or not.

How's that sound? That was you, and you laughed. You were flattered. The debate is over. My point is proven again. But I will continue. No one imitates what they think is bad. Ryan Reynolds didn't look at Jim Carrey and say,

well, I'm going to steal this guy's whole vibe, so people will find me annoying, and I'll have to win them back by selling Tim Hortons and cell phone plans. No, he liked Jim Carrey, and he did the annoying part all on his own. White people, everyone in this room. If imitation wasn't the sincerest form of flattery, then why are we doing it all of the time? We imitate other cultures food.

I mean, sure, we tasted them and then said, hmm, this is good. I think I can make it worse. But we meant well. We imitate other cultures clothes. Sure, Justin Trudeau looked at them and said, I've got a costume idea, something for Halloween. But he meant well.

I think, I think he meant well. Another experiment. Here is a joke that I wrote all on my own. What's the deal with weddings? If he's the best man, then why she not marrying him? Thank you. That was my joke. Did you enjoy my joke? It wasn't my joke. That was imitation, you fools.

Thank you for your laughter, though. I am flattered. The debate is over. I will not continue. I will not be continuing. Chris Wilson on why imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, and this is rare for me, Chris. I have no notes. Way to go, buddy. Thank you.

Thank you, Chris. Now, here to insist that imitation is just limitation. Let's hear from the limitless, Sean Cullen. Imitation is the best form of flattery. Where did this phrase originate? I wonder. Oh, I don't know. Maybe from an imitator?

Someone bankrupt of originality? someone so devoid of creativity that they're forced to look around for someone to steal ideas from. Imitation is the best form of flattery, is a kind of platitude offered by someone who was aware of their own lack of ability, and turns that it is some kind of fun positive

to stave off criticism from others. Hey! You store my joke. Yes! Flattering is. isn't it? Hey, you totally stole my dissertation. No!

I imitated your success. Hey, Thomas Edison, did you steal the idea for alternating current from Nikola Tesla? No! I flattered the hell out of it! I imitation is a form of gaslighting that is contemptible, contemptible and low. It also admits a lack of integrity and quality.

Would you rather have a leather pantsuit made of real leather or an imitation leather pantsuit? I, for one, prefer the sensual suppleness of tanned hide rolling against my skin as opposed to the slick,

sticky, claminess of vines. I prefer to be swathed in the oily, bulging, glistening truth rather than the greasy lie. Sean Cullen in the way that only Sean Cullen can do it. If you've just joined us and you're wondering, what are we debating? it is whether imitation is flattery, if you're listening to us in leather pants, good for you.

It's time now for the bare knuckle round. We're debating whether imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. So it's my distinct impression that it's time to put the tributes to your opponent and get laps from all of us mirror mortals. Let's send in the clones and entertain listeners across this great impersonation starting now. If imitation wasn't the sincerest form of flattery, then we wouldn't have plagiarism.

And if we didn't have plagiarism, then how would anybody successful get ahead in life? Well, I think you've already made the argument for me there. We need original thinkers and people who can make new things. We need people to find brilliant new inroads into the future. We need people to be the ape who climbed the tree and said, hey, over there's the banana. Not all the other apes who sat there and went, what's he doing up there?

And then one of them would turn to the other one and say, are you talking? This is crazy. That's a very good point, actually. Think about this. Imitation is so ingrained in our very being that parrots imitate us and we ignore that they talk.

Yes. We're like, yeah, that's a talking bird. Yeah, he's imitating. Who cares? What you're doing there is confusing didactic imitation or repetition so that you become facile at a skill or an important thing that you need to survive in life. This is a survival trait that we've adapted.

Not like, oh, that book's really good. I think I'll write it again. How about this? Listen to this. Listen. Twinkle, twinkle, little star. Ba, Bob, Black Sheep, Howie went in a Wool.

A, B, C, D, E, F G. All the same song. All perfect. That has to be strengthening my argument somehow. It has to. It has to. That has to be something. Something there.

Yeah, the last time I went to a really big concert, and those three songs were, It was amazing. The Bob Dylan's concert, Amy C.D. P and G. See, it made it more entertaining that I imitated Bob Dylan, but it was still crap. Okay, all right.

That's the bare knuckle round. It's dumb. It's foolish. It is time now for the firing line. In my hand, I have a list of questions. on imitation being the sincerest form of flattery, brought to you by the slogan for Nike knockoffs that end up falling apart.

Just glue it. Psychology today says that the chameleon effect is when you unconsciously mimic another person's mannerisms, gestures, and facial expressions. What happens when you do that? Sean. You're an arsehole. Chris?

What happens is they feel flattered. I don't know. how many more times I have to say this. The chameleon effect is when you unconsciously mimic another person's mannerisms to build rapport, empathy, and social connection. I know I

love it. Finish this quote by writer Oscar Wilde. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, that what? Chris? Yes, the quote is. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery that is true.

That is a true thing. I'm Oscar Wilde. I believe that, and it is true. You are more like Justin Trudeau every time you speak. The actual answer, Oscar Wilde, said imitation is the sincerest form of flattery that mediocrity can pay to greatness. He said it from jail.

Deep, deep. Deep. A mockbuster is a low-budget imitation of a successful blockbuster that often uses a similar-sounding, Examples include snakes on a train, transmorphers, and what mockbuster inspired by a Tom Hanks movie? Chris?

Toy anecdote three. I like that. That's a full point. Sean Cullen. Captain Wilson Phillips. Chris? One tree gump. Hold. Okay. Okay. You get it? You just take a second.

John? Slightly bigger. Chris? Cast aware? Okay. Sean? The Polish Express. Chris.

The other road to perdition. Okay. The green kilometer. We have to stop. We have to stop. I have to call it. Craving Ryan's privates. No, that's it.

You wanted to hear that one, Steve. No, I didn't. The actual answer was the Da Vinci treasure. Boring! I like the other answers better. That's the firing line, everybody. Yeah. All right, guys, it is almost time for our Jubilee Place theater audience to vote.

But first, here again to call out the copycats. Let's hear again from show. from Sean Cullen. Sure, you've seen me as an actor in craving Ryan's privates, but while you were watching that film, you probably thought this isn't as good. The original.

The world has become an imitation. We've become self-referential automatones, commenting on comments in response to comments on our comments. Music is sampled. Movies are remade. Fashion recycles. Humanity is mired in self-imitation, self-reference and self-flattery.

Creativity and originality are too hard for us. And so it'll soon be extinct. And this extinction has a name, AI. When you're in your nutrient fluid tanks, Brains connected to machines showing your dreams almost as good as real life. While corporate androids spread out to settle the stars, imitation people going to find the real universe for themselves. I hope you all feel flattered.

Sean Cullen, everybody. Thank you, Sean. Now, here to say it's never too late to emulate, let's hear from the one and only Chris Wilson. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. And so, a final experiment. My closing remarks will be in the style of comedy legend and debaters fan favorite Sean Cullen.

Imitation, yes, it's good. Did Steve Jobs invent anything new? No! He saw the telephone and then just invented it again. Did Elvis invent a new style of music? No! He stole the blues and then died on the touch. died on the toilet.

A type of death imitated an alarming amount each year. Has this conversation ever happened? I'm a twin. Oh, are you identical? No, fraternal. Oh, wau-we-wow. Wow-wee-we-w-wow. Wow-we-we-waw-y-wow.

Oh, a fraternal twin, you say. Oh, see, you're just normal siblings. Now behold, Sean Cullen's flattered face. Listen, everybody. Chris Wilson, arguing on behalf of imitation. I don't feel flattered, you know. It's time to vote. By applause, how many of you say,

copy that to Chris's imitation oration, Chris Wilson. Okay, a lot of love for Chris. and how many of you agreed with Sean's anti-imitation dissertation, Sean Cullen? You know what? I got to give this one just by a hair. Sean Cullen! Sean Cullen! Imitation is not the sincerest form.

Big hand for Sean Cullen and Chris Wilson, everybody. You're listening to CBC's The Debaters. Want access to bonus content and information on upcoming tour dates? Then be sure to follow us on Instagram. You can find us at at CBC debaters. Let's see if Toronto advisors know their group insurance providers. Oh, excuse me. Who has extensive expertise in both traditional group benefits and special risk solutions?

Beneva. That's right. Who offers adaptable plans that cater to businesses big or small? Beneva. Correct. Who gives you access to the latest health trends and... I know it. Beniva. Looks like people are starting to know Beneva pretty well.

I knew that too. You're stronger with the right partner, Beneva. Have you ever wondered how clean the seats on the TTC are? I found, like, chicken bones or, like, bedbugs. Or why so many Toronto restaurant bathrooms are in dank basements? Sometimes it's the most sketchy things. Like, when you go down, it's like, what is this? I'm Hayden Waters, a reporter and producer on the podcast,

This is Toronto. From breaking down Doug Ford's obsession with the island airport. We have to bring jets in. To being inside an iconic Toronto strip club in its final hours. We go beyond the headlines of the day. we go beyond the headlines of the day and get to know Toronto in all its big, beautiful, frustrating, warty, fascinating glory.

So find and follow us, this is Toronto, wherever you get your podcast. Hey, Winnipeg, are you ready to meet your next pair of debaters? This comic once accidentally swallowed a couple of scrabble tiles and ended up with irritable vowel syndrome. Let's hear from Sackfield, Nova Scotia's Nikki Payne. Let's get her out here. She's already angry.

Hi, Nick. You know about my irritable bowel. Have you been reading my emails? No, no, your diary. And this comic's name really sings. It's Toronto's Ashwin Singh. Ashwin, crossing over, taking the position to my right.

How is it going, buddy? Hello, Pete. Your topic is one that might drive you mental. Therapy, should everyone go? My wife Nancy thinks that I should go, but I don't. Why would I when I get to be here having fun with you? This is like group therapy, except I like it when you laugh in my face. And when you groan at our puns, which is still more reaction than I get at home.

I guess what I'm saying is comedy is therapy for me, and me being away from home is therapy for my wife. Time now for a debate that will never say looks like our time is up. So, whereas it helps you process experiences and improves your mental health, relationships and quality of life, be it

resolved, everyone should go to therapy. Nikki, you're arguing for this, please. You have two minutes, starting now, Nikki Payne. Autative behavioral therapy, grief therapy, dialectical behavior.

Behavior therapy! Individual therapy! Them worked great! You named Therapized it. Some website I read, therapy provides the following benefits. You get to let your issues and feelings out instead of holding them in. My opponent would have you bottle your rage. Let it fester in your mind.

mind flee till you're packedless in a dollar. So I've heard, you can work your issues out with a professional instead of your friends. You can get proper advice from a professional. That way, your friends will be more willing to go to Dollar Ramma with you again. People avoid therapy. for fear being vulnerable and facing hard truths. What hard truths lie and wait in this man's mind.

What vulnerabilities is he trying day in, day out, taunting him as he tries in vain for sleep? Sleep that never comes. Until one day. Lessing a doggorama. The American Psychology Association research shows that psychotherapy is effective, but underutilized. Nikki Payne, everybody. Nikki Payne.

Thank you, Nikki. Now, here to say that he's against therapy and he's not going to couch it. Let's hear from Ashwin Singh. Guys, I'm a comedian, okay? I would rather 300 people laugh at my pain than one person understand. I understand you're supposed to go to therapy to process the world around you the way it is. But if the world around you the way it is is like today, dissociate.

Why do you want to process this dumpster fire? We have two genocides and one fascism. You want to figure out how you feel on the inside? Can we fix outside? In 2025, I made an appointment to go to therapy. Three days before I was supposed to go. India and Pakistan went to war for the third time this decade, and then the war lasted three days.

We have cricket matches that last longer than that. Look, okay, I know that men are not very good at processing at processing anything. But for the first time in my life, last year, I saw the youngest generation of men they got on social media and they were like, hey, you guys, we are sad.

And we are very lonely. In fact, we think there is an epidemic of loneliness. And then all of the women banded together in the comment sections of these men and said, And that is also the fault of the patriarchy!

And I was like, this man learned how to be sad yesterday. You think this is the right time to figure out the root cause of the issue? For the first time in my life, tables turned and I saw men saying to women, listen, I don't need you to solve my problem. I just need you to listen. And you know what was hilarious about that? Women didn't like hearing that either. Thank you.

Ashwin Singh, ladies and gentlemen. gentlemen. He's against going to therapy. Nicky Payne's all for it. Time now for the bare knuckle round. We're debating whether everyone should go to therapy, so don't be a Freud. To say what you mean and let the audience hear you roar, Shaq. Let's pull the emotional trigger, get on the neural pathway to victory, and gestalted. Now. Genocides, fascism, the world is on the verge of taking its pants off in Dolorama. Nikki has utilized every kind of therapy there is, and she's standing on stage in Winnipeg arguing with an Indian.

Who needs therapy? Well, I didn't go to career therapy. Look, one in ten Canadians report frequently feeling lonely. Are you lonely, Ashwin? If you want to get me permanent residence, I'm down. Okay, that's the bear knock around, everybody. It is time now for the firing line. In my hand, I have a list of questions on going to therapy

brought to you by Carl Young's important work on midlife crises, titled, You're Only Young Once. AnxietyCenter.com's list of reasons why some people don't find therapy helpful include the client is looking for a quick solution, the client fears growth and change, and what else? Nikki? The client is Ashwing Singh.

Ashwin Singh? The client needs to pay rent. The audience has given you three points. Wrong, but you still got three points for it. The client is looking for a quick solution. The client fears growth and change, and the therapist is not an effective therapist. Bartenders don't care.

psychology today says therapists need to be mindful that while depression often presents in women as sadness crying or withdrawal, in men it often presents as what? Nikki? Fighting with the Pope. In men, it often presents as irritability, risk-taking behavior, or numbness. So pretty much what you said. Healthline.com says therapy can help you make fresh insights, feel empowered, and also teaches you how to what? Ashwin? Gaslight your partners and blame your friends. Okay, one point.

Nikki Payne. How to shop at Dollar Ramble. This sponsorship is not coming through, I'm telling you. Healthline.com says therapy can help you make fresh insights, feel empowered, and teach you how to make healthier choices. Yes, right. That's the first. firing line, everybody.

It is almost that magical time when our Jubilee Place Theater audience places their votes. But first, here again to insist that he would rather keep his own counsel than share with a counselor. Let's hear again from Ashwin Singh. Okay, the American Psychiatric Association

listed homosexuality as a mental disorder until 1973. If we can't rely on them to know what isn't a mental illness, I don't think we can rely on them to know what is. Canada has free healthcare and you get what you pay for Have you considered that

if instead of going to therapy you went to a protest Maybe you could improve our access to health care So that the wait time isn't as long And you would still get to therapy faster Men should be in therapy Women should be in government And the government we have should be in jail

I'm visiting everybody The one, two, three. Now, here hoping that you all get the psychologist of what she's saying in defensive therapy. Let's hear again from Nikki Payne. Thank you. You're just a real little ray of sunshine, aren't you? Ashwing would have you believe

that you can put off mental health care. Well, lucky, lucky for him. We're in Canada. Wait times to be up to four months. The only thing slower than getting mental health care in this country is getting someone on the phone at the Canadian Revenue Agency, which makes you need mental health care. In 2006, World Happiness Report dropped Canada to 25th place globally.

Who's the winner? Finland! Wedding nature not swing. Nickiness matter! Nikki Payne, everybody. Nicky Payne is all for therapy. Ushwin is all against and it's time to vote. By applause who felt that listening to Nicky's pro-therapy theory

was most therapeutic, Nikki Payne. And how many of you agreed with Ushwin that people who go to therapy really need to get their heads exam and Ushwin sing? But just by... hair, we've got to give this one to Nikki Payne. It's okay to go to this week. I'm Steve Patterson saying comedy is no substitute for professional therapy,

at least not for the audience it isn't. I'll argue with you again soon, Canada. Good night. The Debaters is created by Richard Syed. This week's episode was produced by Nicole Callender, Chloe Edbrook, Dean Jenkinson, and Graham Clark. With continuity by Graham Clark, Diana Francis, and Gary Jones.

Technical production by James Porella and May. Macillop. Story editing by Gary Jones. With special thanks to Katie Ellen Humphreys, David Pride, and Emily Ferrier. Executive producer of CBC Radio Comedy is Lee Pitts. And thanks to everyone at the Jubilee Place Theatre and the Winnipeg Comedy Festival. For more CBC podcasts, go to cBC.ca.ca slash podcasts.