The Debaters - Is listening to an audiobook the best way to read a book? And does nothing beat a night at the ballet?

Episode Date: August 14, 2025

Two comedians get in each other’s bad books when they pit listening to audiobooks against reading books. Then, we’re raising the barre on the subject of spending a night at the ballet.Featuring: Matt Falk, Lara Rae, DeAnne Smith and Courtney Gilmour.

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This is Nicole Callender, one of the producers on the show. We're on a summer break right now, so you're about to listen to a debate we aired earlier this season. And you'll want to bookmark this episode where we figure out if listening to audiobooks is superior to reading books. We'll be back in September with brand new episodes and to kickstart our 20th season. Thanks for listening.

Hey, Canada, winner's got a win. From winning Winnipeg, it's the debater! The debaters where comedians fight with facts and funny in this audience picks the winner. Now here's a man who knows how to win, lose, and gaffa. Steve Patterson. Hey, thank you, Graham Clark. Hello, Canada. Welcome back to the debaters.

We are here in beautiful Winnipeg. Yes. A city that can really inspire. In fact, back in the 1930s, local cartoonist, Charles Thorson, was inspired by a city. restaurant server right here in Winnipeg and drew the title character of Disney's Snow White. True story. He also drew the seven dwarfs while in Winnipeg but had to make a trip to Parliament instead

for inspiration on dopey, grumpy, and sleepy. Yeah, it's time now to meet two animated debaters who like to whistle while they were. This comic took flying lessons as part of a pilot project. It's Winnipeg's Matt Fogg! Welcome back! Matt Falk, there he is! Matt Falk, always entertaining. Always good to see it.

Hi, everybody! And when this comic shakes hands with a dog, she takes great pause. It's Winnipeg's Laura Ray! Laura Ray! One of our very favorites, taking the stage and walking across to the podium to my right. Welcome back, Clara.

Thank you. Your topic is one that we're glad we booked time for. Books! Is listening to them better than reading them? If I'm being honest, I've never actually listened to a full audio book because I always feel like the person's voice who did the recording isn't close enough to mine, takes me out of the story. But that is unfair to one side of this debate.

So for the sake of impartiality, I'll tell you, I've never actually read a full book. Because then I hear my own voice in my head, and it takes me out of the story. It's time now for a debate that has some novel ideas. So, whereas they're more convenient, accessible, and engaging, be it resolved. Listening to audiobooks is superior to read.

reading books. Matt. Matt, you are doing this for one very, very enthusiastic listener. You are arguing for this, and you have two minutes starting now. Matt Fogg! Thank you. Thank you. Books.

They used to be only for the smartest. Those with the highest attention spans. Those who, who You could afford a Kindle. But not anymore. Thanks to audiobooks, now you can read, even if you can't read. The world's literature is no longer just for the wealthy elite.

Now you can enjoy pride and prejudice while having neither. Neither. Audio books open up a realm of possibilities. David Copperfield, as read by David Copperfield? Yes, please. Carrie as read by Drew Carey? Why not? But no.

Maybe my opponent is right. Maybe print is superior to audio. Because this is my favorite show, and there's nothing I love more than sitting down and reading a fully typed out transcript of the debaters. Now, the only time I would ever recommend a physical book is if you need it to supplement an audio book. For example, if you listen to Arnold Schwarzenegger's autobiography,

you know, It's an audible Arnold impression that talking about the greatness, you have a great. Yes, okay, I agree. then the book would be handy, but books are really nothing more than just portable subtitles for audiobooks. I have spent countless hours driving around Canada doing stand-up.

You know how many audiobooks I've listened to while driving? 104. You know how many physical books I've read in that time? One eighth before the accident. Listen, an audiobook can even win a Grammy. Now, that is something. You can meet Beyonce at the Grammys.

Who you gonna meet at your Pulitzer Prize Award ceremony? Hi, I'm Walter. I made the world better with my contribution to literature. Bluh. No, not interested, Walter. Now, call me when you seamlessly cross over from R&B to country. Now, that changed the world. I feel like I'm getting off track.

Thank you, Steve. Matt Fult, ladies and gentlemen. Yeah. Matt Fult. On behalf of audio books instead of reading books, and I got to be honest, I used to work at advertising. I haven't heard many better slogans

than now you can read even if you can't read. Thank you. That's good. Now, here to tell you. why she fell in love with reading books because they were just her type. Let's hear from the one and only Laura Ray. Thank you.

Thank you. Anyone that knows me knows that I love to read because I hate listening. Look, I understand some people are blind. Also, I'm sorry I said, look. said, look. But with reading, magic happens. Our brain turns words into pictures.

We feel the texture of the pages and the scent of freshly dried ink. We hear the turning of the page and our light breathing. Unless it's a dirty buck. Then you might be breathing a little heavier. Reading about lovemaking, that's romantic. My opponent Matt wants to listen. That's voyeurism. I get the power of the voice.

Look, do we really get the full effect of just how sanctimonious and evil the main character might be if Bono isn't actually reading his own autobiography? I once read, Matt, that hundreds of your favorite audiobooks are narrated. by serial killer Ed Kemper. Yeah, a six-foot-seven murder machine is reading to your kids. You'll never think of the velveteen rabbit the same again. Or worry about drag queens at the library.

Thank you. Laura Ray, on behalf, of reading books. It is time now for the bare-knuckle round. We're debating whether audiobooks speak to you more than reading books. So see if you can get on the same page as the audience. Show them no one can hold a Kindle to your argument

and make a solid book case for yourself. So before I say audios, remember, if you want a joke to work, you'd bestseller. And I mean that literaturally. Let's start now. I don't, you know, I like, you know, when I have people over, I have, like, books everywhere.

I have books on the shelves. I have books, like, on the table. I have books on the floor. Just, my whole house is just books, books everywhere. Why? Because then people can see how smart I am. Yeah. Yeah.

All right. What do you do with the books when your company leaves? They're like coasters. Okay. You know, I guess audiobooks, they just make me uncomfortable. Okay.

Yeah, because it's like you're giving money to capitalism. And then it's like you're paying someone and they're reading for you. And that feels very elitist to me and a little bit classist. Sure, yeah. If I may.

Okay. And, and, and, and. Oh my word! I wish this was an audiobook so I could put it on 2.5 times speed. I can be home by now. That's the bare nougar round. That was well done. Time now for the firing line.

In my hand, I have a list of questions on audiobooks versus reading books, brought to you by the recording. recorded Hawaii 5-0 novelizations. Audio book them, Dano. Wired Magazine's advice columnist says you shouldn't feel bad if you find reading boring because why? Matt. Because life is boring.

Can't argue with that. Two points. Lara Ray. Because you're taking your advice from Wired Magazine. Good point. That is a good point. You shouldn't feel bad if you find reading boring because most

books are very bad. Wired Magazine's advice columnist is AI. It's an AI. The author of the book, The Reading Mind, says that one advantage of audiobooks over physical books is audiobooks contain

prosody information. What is prosody information. Laura? Pro-Saudi information is propaganda from the Saudi government. Pro-soddy information should be taken with a grain of salt. That's different.

Prosity. Pro-Sodity. Pro-Soddy. No. Matt? I'm sorry, you're both incorrect. It's pronounced pro-city. It's when you hate small towns. Prossity information is information contained in the speaker's intonations.

Oh. Wow. Like that. Like that. Right? Audiobooks.com's list of the best-selling audiobooks of all time includes how to win friends and influence people, the lion, the witch, and the wardrobe. and what book written by an Academy Award-winning actor?

Lara Ray. By Al Pacino. Yeah. Hoa! Woo! Would 100% listen to the book by Al Pacino. Matt. Brie Larson's audiobook entitled,

Why Read When You Can Larson to Me? Solid. That is solid. Three points. I marvel at how that one came about. The actual answer is Matthew McConaughey's Green Lights. Matthew McConaughey's Green Lights. Keeps you up listening all night, all night, all night. That's the firing line, everybody. Here we go. We are in the home stretch debaters. And it is just a about time for our very jubilant jubilee place theater audience to pick a winner but first when it comes down to her vote in favor of reading books the eyes have it let's hear again from Laura Ray thank you as a well-read person I care about

the environment and the future so I'm not worried about book printing I'm worried about book burning and paper goes up at 450 degrees Fahrenheit. But audio devices, CDs, hard drive, they require much higher temperatures. And the parts are as toxic as Manitoba groundwater. It's way cleaner to burn books. We live in scary times. But did some people love Hitler because they read Mein Kampf? No. It was all that all Yeah. Say yes to books and know the radio.

Yeah, no. Yes, no. Except CBC Radio. Thank you. All right. All four reading books. Now, listen up, because here to give you an awesome earful on audiobooks.

Let's hear again from Matt Fult. Thank you. Thank you. When you read a book, the narrator is your inner voice. No, thank you. My inner voice is too busy criticizing my eating habits to read Gatsby. So you're going to eat that?

You think that's a good idea? Really? You want that jerk to be with you for six hours as you slog through tale of two cities? It was the best of times, it was the worst of times. Worse of times was last week when you ate that whole cake by yourself at 6 a.m. It was the age of wisdom.

It was the age of foolishness. Foolishness, yeah, like when you fell for an email scam as a 35-year-old adult and lost three grand. Stop it, stop it. It was the epoch of belief. You don't even know what the epoch means. Stop it, stop it. It was the epoch of incredul incredulineties.

You didn't even pronounce that right. No, no thank you. I say, why read a book when Dame Judy Dench could read one to me? Thank you. Not books. Good point. Good points on either side. Nice job, Matt.

It is time for our audience to vote. By applause, how many of you really read into Lara's font of knowledge around reading books? Laura Ray, who has a book in her hands right now that she's pointing to. Nice support for Laura. And how many of you took a page out of Matt's book in favor of audio books? Matt Fogg. A big one. The big one, very close.

It's inconclusive. It is a tie. Matt Falk and Lara Ray. Keep reading and keep listening. Big hand for Matt Falk and Lara Ray, everybody. You're listening to CBC Radio's The Debaters. Want access to bonus content and information on upcoming tour dates? Then be sure to follow us on Instagram at at CBC Debaters.

you know shopping for a car should be exciting not exhausting and that's where car gurus comes in they have advanced search tools unbiased deal ratings and price history so you know a great deal when you see one it's no wonder car gurus is the number one rated car shopping app in canada on the apple app and google play according to app follow buy your next car today with car gurus and make sure your big deal is the best deal at car gurus dot ca that's g-U-R-U-S-C-A. Car gurus.com. Hey, we're the Adam Wild and Jacks show. You can find us wherever we get your podcast every Wednesday. And Jacks, we talk about what? Well, we're just two best pals talking about pop culture, dating, and also exposing each other's deepest, darkest secrets.

And if you've ever been ghosted, we've a little segment called Left on Red. We'll recall the person who ghosted you and say, hey, why'd you do that? And usually it leads to some pretty embarrassing and explosive things. Yeah. So check out the Adam Wild and Jack show of every Wednesday, wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, Winnipeg, are you ready to meet your next pair of debaters? This is going to be a good one.

This comic believes that when it comes to housekeeping as a chore, you should let the punishment fit the grime. It's Deanne Smith. D. Ann Smith! D.N. Bounding. across the stage, taking their place at the podium to my right. And this comic thinks that crocheting is a pretty loopy pastime.

It's Toronto's Courtney Gilmore. Come on up, Courtney! There's Courtney, welcome back. Hi, Courtney. Hi, Steve. Your topic debaters is one that will keep you on your toes. Ballet.

Is it a great night out? Of course, we are in the city that houses the Royal Ballet. I don't know, you knew that. That's a real fact. I'm not a ballet aficionado myself, but I have, for some reason, done cameo appearances as a toy soldier in two Toronto productions of the Nutcracker. Yes, so I do consider myself a dancer.

Did you know that action stars, Patrick Swayze, Jean-Claude Van Damme, and Arnold Schwarzenegger, all took ballet classes to help them with flexibility and stretching for their action roles? I think they missed a great opportunity, though, to star in a movie together called The Extendables. I guess you could say that casting those guys would be totally on point. It's time to leap into this debate. So, whereas it's a classic art form that incorporates captivating choreography, music, and costume, be it resolved, nothing beats a night at the ballet. D.N. You are arguing for this, please. You have two minutes. Starting now, Dianne Smith.

Much like the ability to cue properly and score legal weed, ballet is essential to a functioning society. Beautiful in its own right, ballet is a rich source of inspiration for other art forms. De Gaas paintings, Tchaikovsky. ballet scores teen romance save the last dance and the direct-to-video sequel Save the Last Dance 2. Ballet has the power to transform us to fantastical realms where swans fall in love with princes, mice battle toy soldiers, and white girls from small Midwestern towns move to Chicago when their mother dies in a car accident trying to get to their latest dance audition where they then fall in love with a

a black teenager at their new high school who introduces them to hip-hop rhythms and ultimately helps them get into Juilliard. Ballet is relatable. The world of ballet is full of inspiration. Ballet is a rare place where we can witness amazing feats of strength, endurance, and stamina. set against a surreal background. I mean, outside of watching Americans during an election cycle.

Winnipeg more than anyone knows that nothing beats a night at the ballet. You're known for it. You're known for being flat, being cold, and having the ballet. Coincidentally, flat and cold is how I'd describe the last ballet dancer I dated, But I digress. A night at the ballet, incomparable. Thank you. B. Anne Smith.

Ladies and gentlemen. Thank you, Diane. Now, determined not to dance around why she thinks this art form should be laid to rest forever. Let's hear from Courtney Gilmore. Listen, Winnipeg, I'm not here to tell you that the ballet is a bad place to be. It's great for napping. I've seen the Nutcracker ten times, and I still don't know what it's about.

You probably think that you do, but no, try explaining it out loud. Once you get to the evil mouse king, you start to wonder if you're having a stroke. If you want a good story about a European rodent, look no further than my personal hero, Ratatouille. Yes. If you look up the ballet on the internet, you will find a bunch of articles explaining tips

on how to go to the ballet. And as we all know, the perfect night out should always come with a set of rigid instructions. One of the tips that I saw was enjoy reading the program. That's right, part of the ballet's appeal is reading about the ballet while you're at the ballet. Nobody's feet should be able to do all that. It's weird and unnatural. Ballet dancers can only dance professionally until ages 35 to 40,

and you know where they end up then? In line at the ER to fix their feet. While the rest of us have a longer wait time for our own issues, like chest pains and head injuries, and my eyeballs feel loose again, Don't judge why I go to the ER. Listen, by going to the ballet, you're supporting the collapse of the Canadian health care system.

Thank you. Harvey Gilmore is anti-ballet and came out swinging. We got ourselves a debate, and it's time now to go into the bare-knuckle round. We're debating whether nothing beats a night at the ballet. So, since you're here, in home of the Winnipeg Jette's. Hopefully it won't be too, too difficult

to get the ballet of the land, you know? It's time to tell them they're talking bullshoy. This pad de deux starts now. First of all, there's no nachos. nachos. You know what? I don't do this. Full point.

Full point. Yeah. No, that's one point. Courtney, there's no nachos here. You can't just snack wherever you want to snack. Listen, if I wanted to stop eating, I'd be on stage at the ballet, not in the audience, okay? Fair enough. Fair enough.

That is a part of the ballet that I cannot defend. I cannot defend. Deanne, you think watching the ballet is inspiring? Well, guess what? For some of us, it's actually traumatizing. It reminds us of our childhood dance lessons where we thought we'd be famous dancers someday. But then we got told stuff like, you're too short.

You're not graceful enough. Stop hanging your prosthetic hands from the bar and scaring the other children. Courtney, listen, I'm queer. I'm never going to discount your experience of trauma, okay? But I will say, finger quotes were really offensive there. Yes, for those listening at home, Dan did air quotes there. But I will say hanging your prosthetics from the bar.

You sound like a creepy child, Courtney. Here's a fact. Here's something I learned while researching this debate. During World War II, ballet was used to train soldiers in the Soviet Union. And then after the war, many soldiers went on to become professional dancers. Imagine how peaceful the world could be if we replaced military training with ballet. Courtney, are you telling me you'd rather see needless war, Courtney!

You know what I gotta say to that? Let's dance! All right, that is the bare knuckle round, everybody. It's a good one. It is time now for the firing line. In my hand, I have a list of questions on ballot. brought to you by the preferred throat lozenge of all ballet dancers, Baryshnikov drops.

What happened at the Royal Winnipeg Ballet's annual production of the Nutcracker that resulted in them being out $10,000? Dianne. Courtney really went overboard with the snacks and it was messy. Incorrect. Courtney Gilmour. Nobody showed up. No, Courtney.

It was the exact opposite. Ticket scammers purchased tickets with stolen credit cards and resold them on third-party websites. I hope those hackers had their nuts cracked. In order to determine if you might be for a night at the ballet, what question does ballerina gallery.com suggest that you ask yourself? Courtney? What am I doing with my life?

I got to give that an official point. Yeah. D. Ann Smith? I think you should ask yourself, am I underdressed for the ballet? And then you should answer, nope. Just a little back and forth. The actual answer is, would you? I wear this to a job interview and if you answer no you might be underdressed.

It's a little something for you guys. Natalie Portman won the Academy Award for Best Actress for her role as a troubled ballerina in the psychological horror film. What was the title? Dan. Okay, Troubled dancer horror film Dirty Dancing? That's a good guess. It was 1963. It was super sexist. super sexist then

that's a good guess incorrect cordie gilmore not for a tutu I like that I like that yeah that's good I'm giving you two two points

it's incorrect but I liked your answer better it was a black swan we also would have accepted Star Wars the ballerina strikes back and that is the firing line everybody It's almost time for our jubilant jubilee place theater audience to vote.

But first, here to ask what all the ballet who's about. Let's hear again from Courtney Gilmore. Winnipeg, I know that you're proud of your royal ballet. Right? But all I'm saying is, if it's that important to you, then why, when I looked up fun things to do in Winnipeg, was it nowhere to be found? Topping the list was a corn maze.

And that's because nobody's top pick for an outing is the ballet. You know how I know? Because you're all here. Yes. You're here supporting the ultimate classic art form. Comedians who will never own property pleading with you to like them. Nothing beats a night of comedy. Thank you.

Courtney Gilmore. Yeah, nice job. Nice job, Courtney. Now, here to raise the bar by boosting Ballet. Let's hear again from Deanne Smith. Okay, not to be dramatic, but I believe ballet is essential to birthing the revolution we need. Ballets last for up to four hours. As the modern world fractures our collective attention spans, focusing for that long is a revolutionary act, a resistance to the high.

hyper speed of the capitalistic death machine. Ballet shows us that there is strength in collective action, beauty in discipline, and that it's cute to put on a little tutu and take a leap into the unknown. Plus, and maybe most importantly, dancers are hot. And they're little tights. I'm shocked I've managed to make it this far

without already mentioning that. Revolution. Thank you. Deanne Smith, arguing on behalf of the ballet. Thank you, Dianne. All right, audience, it is up to you to decide. By applause, who agreed with Courtney,

that boring, should really be called blah blah blah lay Courtney Gilmore Courtney doing a full spin enjoying the adulation of the audience with a full QOX and who felt that Deanne's argument in support of ballet took off in leaps and bounds Deanne Smith

pretty close pretty close but we've got to give this one to Courtney Gilmore down with the Baraway. Big hand for Courtney Gilmore and D.N. Smith, everybody. Well, that's all for this week. I'm Steve Patterson saying I'm not a strong swimmer, but I still enjoyed diving into Swan Lake.

I'll argue with you again soon, Canada. Good night. The Debaters is created by Richard Side. This week's episode was produced by Nicole Callender, Chloe Edbrook, Dean Jenkinson, and Graham Clark. With continuity by Graham Clark, Diana Francis, and Gary Jones. Technical production by James Porella and Lloyd Peterson. Story editing by Gary Jones.

With special thanks to Katie Ellen Humphreys, David Pride, and Emily Ferrier. Executive producer of CBC Radio Comedy is Lee Pitts. And thanks to everyone at the Jubilee Place Theatre and the Winnipeg Comedy Festival. For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.ca.ca. Thank you.