The Debaters - Which is better: Plastic or paper? And are you nobody until somebody hates you?

Episode Date: May 22, 2025

We decide if plastic beats paper and whether being hated has its benefits.Featuring: Ivan Decker, Martha Chaves, Nikki Payne, and Bruce Clark.

How did the internet go from this? You could actually find what you were looking for right away, bound to this. I feel like I'm in hell. Spoiler alert, it was not an accident. I'm Cory Doctorow, host of Who Broke the Internet from CBC's Understood. In this four-part series, I'm going to tell you

why the internet sucks now, whose fault it is, and my plan to fix it. Find Who Broke the Internet on whatever terrible app you get your podcasts. This is a CBC Podcast. Hey Canada, we're all dressed up with somewhere to go. From the home of the tuxedo neighborhood in Winnipeg, Manitoba, it's the debaters! Yeah! The debaters where comedians fight with facts and funny and this audience picks the winner. Now here's a man with a cummerbundance of jokes,

Steve Patterson. Hey! Thanks, Graham Clark. Hey, thanks Graham Clark. Hello, Canada. Welcome back to The Debaters. We are back in our favorite place, Winnipeg, Manitoba. A city steeped in history. If you go to the Manitoba Museum, you can slip into the Procenium Theatre,

a tiny movie theatre that shows Charlie Chaplin and Buster Keaton movies. Yes! Since the world's economy is probably heading for another Great Depression, why not enjoy the entertainment from the first one? Why not enjoy the entertainment from the first one? Yeah. That said, it's refreshing to be in a theater from an era when no one could interrupt the movie with a phone call, although it was super annoying back then when someone received a telegram. What are you doing right now? Stop. Nothing. Stop. And when you read the telegram

out loud, the entire audience would say, stop. Now, it's time to go meet two debaters who never stay silent. This comic wrote a computer program on an egg shell, but then someone cracked the code. It's Vancouver's Ivan Decker! Come on out, Ivan Decker! There he is, one of our favorites, making his way to the podium to my left. Hello. And this comic's sneezing fit and a large crowd

forced her to count her blessings. It's Toronto's Marta Chavez! Marta Chavez! There she is! Welcome back, Marta! Marta making her way across the stage to my right. Your topic is one that we haven't recycled. Plastic versus paper, which is superior? When I hear the words paper

or plastic, I think of reusable shopping bags. Then I remember that I forget to bring those with me every time I go shopping. And then I think of how many of those cloth bags I have jammed into the cupboard underneath our kitchen sink, all of them stuffed inside one reusable plastic shopping crate. Time now for a debate that will make the bio degrade. So whereas it offers greater durability, lower costs, and more versatility, be it resolved that plastic is superior to paper.

Ivan, you're arguing for this, please. You have two minutes. Starting now, Ivan Decker. Thank you very much. arguing for this, please. You have two minutes. Starting now, Ivan Decker. Thank you very much. Good evening, you mighty fine Manitoban citizens, hard folk who know a hard day's work. People that are positively impassioned by the idea of the invention of indestructible packaging. Honest folk who appreciate a quality material that reflects the durability of a prairie spirit in the dead of a Winnipeg winter.

That's right, I'm talking about plastic. It's not just for artificial piano keys anymore. Tell the elephants to buy some toothpaste because by the time plastic is through with the retail market, their ivory will be as useless as a freshly combed head of hair at the corner of Portage and Main. Now listen here, folks, you're sharp, I can tell.

Don't let my fast talking opponent pull the wool over your eyes with her truth-bending quick talk. She's gonna stand over there and talk down to you, spin you a tall tale about things called microplastics. Invisible plastics in us somehow ruining the world. Have you ever heard anything more preposterous? This is pure propaganda from the people who want your food spoiling more frequently so you can take your hard earned

plastic Canadian dollars down to the superstore and buy another head of lettuce that will wilt faster than me when I found out I make less money than my wife. What's paper good for? Job applications. Eviction notices. Expropriation orders that forced hardworking farmers from their land during the dust bowl. Paper is the material of the oppressor.

Bold and intimidating upon receipt, but fragile and flimsy when faced with the test of time. Plastic is the material of the common man. Indomitable, unyielding, and most of all completely undigestible. I say do not be intimidated by the paper tiger looming over us in these trying times. Let us all become the steadfast plastic straw wedged firmly in the nostril of the sea turtle of exploitation. Ivan Decker, ladies and gentlemen. Yeah. A timeless argument on behalf of plastic over paper.

Now here to say, watermark my words, people, paper is the preferred product. Let's hear from Marta Chavez. You know, my opponent here, he came pushing the plastic illusion. Like he want to bubble wrap the audience with it. Like he want to bubble wrap the province with it, but what he's doing is he's trying to choke the turtle. I mean the truth, he's trying to choke the truth. He's talking about the durability of plastic. Oh, plastic can survive

a Winnipeg winter. But plastic can survive 500 Winnipeg winters. And just because something is durable doesn't mean that it's good. Cockroaches are durable. You know? Zombies are durable. And you know what else is durable? An orange, moron, dictator, president of the United States. And now let's talk about versatility. Plastic can be all the trinkets that you don't need but you buy at the dollar store. You know, paper is creativity. Paper are the first sketches of Leonardo da Vinci.

Paper is the chart of rights and freedoms. Paper is the manuscript of A. A. Milne of Winnie the Pooh. Yes. Right. And speaking about Pooh. Speaking about who, paper is the friend that accompan, you can't see them. Just like you cannot see viruses, you know, but just because you can see a prairie chicken dancing, it doesn't mean that it doesn't do it, you know. Plastic is the friend who might help you out, but in exchange for the favor, it crashes on your couch, refuses to ever leave, and clogs your toilets.

And paper is the humble friend who shows up, helps with the snacks, clean up after itself, and lives without a trace. Paper is a class act. Marta Chavez everybody. Yeah. We're debating plastic versus paper. Ivan versus Marta.

And it's time now for the bare-knuckle round. We're debating plastic versus paper. So to glad bag a win, beat your opponent's argument to a pulp in a fight that it stands to resin. Should be on paper view. Thank you. One person. And not a single use of profanity or that'll be the last straw. Unleash your bounty of jokes in this battle royale starting now.

Sorry, before we start I'm a bit thirsty. Oh, okay, Ivan's just got to get a little refreshment here. He's wrapped a bottle in a, looks like I guess a plastic cling wrap. And he's just getting it undone. Sorry, Mark, there'll just be a couple seconds here. He's got a plastic bottle inside the plastic wrap. There it is, okay. He's got his refreshment.

All right. Ah, fresh as ever. I just want to say. You just can't beat that kind of freshness. Yes. Sealed behind a wall of indestructible plastic. Oh, plastic is horrendous. Paper is the worst.

Don't you hate it when you go to the grocery store and all they give you is a paper grocery bag? Well, no, because it forces me to not be a gluten, you know? Instead of carrying three jumbo jars of peanut butter, I only carry one, so it's good for my figure. The paper is good for my figure. Okay. Your figure's great.

You look like Brigitte Bardot. I'm gonna take that as when she was young or now because now, have you seen? All right. She's gonna last forever, just like plastic. Ha ha ha. All right. She's gonna last forever, just like plastic. But you really believe that there is a future.

There is not. Because of plastic, we have no future. I think plastic is the material of the future. Why I think one day it'll even take mankind to the stars. Or at least Katy Perry. Okay, all right. That's the bear-knuckle round, everybody. We're debating plastic versus paper.

Time now for the firing line. In my hand, I have a list of questions on plastic versus paper, brought to you by John Lennon and the Plastic Oh No Band. A real band that was an idea that looked good on paper. Many companies sell tea in tea bags made of plastic rather than paper. The disadvantages are they release microplastics into your tea and they're not biodegradable.

But what's one advantage? Ivan, you could make tea in space among the stars. One and a half points. Martha, you can slowly poison your enemies. Also strong. One advantage of using tea bags made of plastic is that they're generally stronger and more durable than paper. My point exactly. But they have poison.

Yeah, but by the time you drink tea regularly, you've had a pretty good run. According to HowStuffWorks.com, both paper and plastic bags present recycling challenges. Plastic often gets caught in recycling plant machines, while paper does what? Ivan? Submits weekly to the machine. often gets caught in recycling plant machines, while paper does what? Ivan? Submits weekly to the machine. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha plant machines because it takes more energy to recycle than it would to make a new bag. Thank you for reacting like that. That's the one I like. It just proves that you're out there. According to a non-profit environmental advocacy group, making toilet paper from Canada's Boreal

Forest is wasteful and we should be making toilet paper from what instead? Matta. We should be making toilet paper from political promises. Alright. They are full of crap anyway. I'll give two points for that. Ivan Decker? My gift receipt from the Hudson's Bay Company. Maybe too soon now, but we should be making toilet paper from recycled paper or bamboo.

I imagine there's some sort of transformation that takes place. Well, it could be called Bam-bum. I think that's the firing line, everybody. We did it. It is almost time for our jubilant Jubilee Place Theatre audience to vote, but first here again to prioritize pushing for paper, let's hear again from the always pushy but always funny, Marta Chavez. Plastic is desperate to be everywhere. And you know, Trump forbade paper straws, right?

Because he said that sharks are not eating plastic. They are eating the cats. They are eating the dogs. They are eating the pets. And Melania swims in the ocean and they are not eating her and she's made out of plastic. That was his story. Isn't it? Paper shows up for the meaningful stuff.

It is your birth certificate. It is a love letter that you kept from when you were 15. It is the book that changes your entire perspective and eventually your obituary. And in fact, if it wasn't because of paper, I wouldn't be here. Because in order to do this show, I had to be Canadian. I had to have my paper. Yeah. Smart that's heaven.

Yeah. Bringing it all around. Now, here to confirm that he is indeed the boy inside the plastic bubble, let's hear again from Ivan Decker. Now I know all you folks are the right kind of people. And I know I'm not the only one that's sick and tired of paper. I shudder to think about all the paper I've been given throughout my life. Every purchase, every show, every coat check, every parking garage. We've all got bits of paper in our pockets right now.

Hang on to this. Why? Someone might need to see it someday. Do you know how many times someone has asked me to see this so-called important piece of paper? Zero. We're all just handing pieces of paper to each other, like some deranged cult. Passing it around till it disintegrates, and we need to cut down another tree frittering

away our country's natural resources on this useless pursuit. Do not succumb to this. Embrace the permanence of plastic. May it survive forever, long after I am gone, in the gills of the fish that eat my bones after the ocean covers the earth. Thank you. Ivan Decker! Champion on behalf of plastic,

and it's up to our theater to decide by applause who thought that Ivan performed a precise procedure like a professional plastic surgeon, Ivan Decker? Ah, that's a lot of support. A lot of support for Ivan. Okay. And who applauds Martha's prolific pro-paperpanderings, Marta Chavez? Hey, it's a hard fought battle, but the winner is Marta Chavez! Taper over plastic! Big hand for Marta Chavez and Ivan Decker, everybody! Hey, Debaters fans!

Want to be a part of the debating action? Then come to a live taping. For details on upcoming tour dates, visit our website at cbc.ca.gov.au and sign up for our free online tour. We'll see you next time. Bye! Bye! Bye!

Bye! Bye! Bye! Bye! Bye! Bye! If you're like me, there are things you love about living in the GTA and things that drive you absolutely crazy. Every day on This Is Toronto, we connect you to what matters most about life in the GTA, the news you gotta know, and the conversations your friends will be talking about. Whether you listen to the show or not, you can always find out more about the show. And if you're interested in about life in the GTA, the news you gotta know, and the conversations your friends will be talking about. Whether you listen on a run through your neighborhood

or while sitting in the parking lot that is the 401, check out This Is Toronto, wherever you get your podcasts. I just have one question for you Winnipeg. Are you ready to meet your next pair of debaters? Listen to that crowd Canada. In between gigs this comic weaves mosquito nets making her a star of stage and screens. It's Sackville, Nova Scotia's Nikki Payne! Nikki Payne! One of our very favorites. Winnipeg! Yeah!

And this comic defended the food in his camping tent by bringing all his strength to bear. It's Winnipeg's Bruce Clark. Come on, Bruce. Bruce. Elmwood. Steve, before we start, I gotta say it. My mom's here. Oh, really? For real?

It's her birthday today. Are you serious? Where's Ms. Clark? She's over here. Oh, there she is. There she is, 93. There she is. Woo! Woo!

Woo! Woo! Woo! That's great. That's great. I've always, what's your secret, mom? You're not my real son. Ha ha ha ha ha!

Ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha ha ha! It's over. It's over. She just won. She just won the debate. Oh, that was cool. Thank you very much, Mrs. Clark. Welcome. And now we get to see what your son can do, or whoever this guy is. Debaters, your topic is one that is sure to pass detest. Are you nobody until somebody hates you? I don't hate anybody because hate is such a strong word, but I do strongly dislike a few groups of people.

Those who watch loud videos on their phones in public. Those who check a year's worth of lottery tickets at the convenience store. While I'm waiting to pay for one coffee crisp. Don't like you. And I especially don't appreciate it when a country that has been a historically good neighbor suddenly becomes unhinged because of one cranky and quite possibly crazy uncle. But I don't like the word hate, so I'll stop talking now. Time for a debate that might have you fuming.

So whereas going through life without ruffling a few feathers can hardly be called living, be it resolved you're no one until someone hates you. Nikki, you are arguing for this please. You have two minutes starting now. Nikki Payne. Okay, shut up! I only got two minutes. You're no one until someone hates you. It's cliche because it's true. I knew I had finally made it in show business, not when I won an award or scored a part in some Canadian show that inevitably was cancelled by the time I won the award for it. No, I knew I hit the big time of Canadian entertainment when a 14 year old girl named Tanya created the I Hate Nikki Payne Facebook group.

I was so flattered, I joined. When I suggested we have t-shirts made, Tonya yelled in all caps, you're ruining our group! As their animosity grew, so did my confidence. I feasted upon their loathing. This is the age of the internet, Steve, a time of extremes, if it is not a kicking, suckling on one of its own wee toe beings, like a mother's teat, that's teat with a T, then we want to be kicked off to the point of utter revolting. Steve, you can bear witness, I am no kitten. And have no beans to suckle like a teat.

My only path to the fame and fortune I lust for is the sickening sweet teat of hate. No, you cannot have fame online without hate. True story, this is a true story. I have a, well, I hate Nicky Payne Facebook group, it's also a true story, but it's another true story! I have a friend who has a rescue farm. She shares her love of these pathetic creatures that had she not saved would surely be in a Tupperware container of marinade. She developed an online following. Everyone loved her empathy, her kindness,

and the animal's adorable hijinks. Not even a rescue farm would avoid the watchful eyes of a hostile malice. Your cow's a loser, lady! How can a cow be a loser? It's a cow! Every day that it isn't in a sandwich, it wins! Even if it isn't in the sandwich, it wins! I have never been so jealous of a loser cow.

Thank you very much. Nikki Payne, arguing that you're nobody till somebody hates you. Thank you, Nikki. Now, here to tell us why he loves to hate hate, let's hear from one of Manitoba's best, Bruce Clark. I lust for the sickening sweet teat of hate. I have one question, Nicky. Who hurt you?

I can see why you're bitter. Let's be honest, you really haven't made it in show business. I mean, you're performing in a high school auditorium. In the afternoon. In Elmwood. But we all know there's a fine line between love and hate, and that line is known as the 49th parallel. Being hated only gets you so far, and when I say so far, I mean becoming a multi-billionaire by selling ugly electric cyber trucks.

I can sympathize though, Nakey, I too have an intimate understanding of hate. Because I was forced to grow up in Winnipeg. Have you ever had to walk to the LaSalle Hotel vendor on a February 35 below to buy another case of beer because your 71 Dodge Monaco would not start. Imagine if hate was the ethos of the human condition. We'd still be listening to the Beatles singing, She hates you, yeah yeah yeah. Joan Jett would have sang, I love myself for hating you. And that makes no sense, Nikki Payne. There is hope though, Nikki. I was once like you, filled with contempt and vitriol until I attended a group therapy.

I still remember sitting with other ire-filled humans listening to their petty grievances and silly complaints until inevitably someone would erupt in a barrage of profanity-laden screaming at the top of their lungs. Oh, sorry, that was a Sunday dinner. I know there's hope for you, Nikki, because I love you and I think you're a somebody. Thank you. I hope for you, Nikki, because I love you, and I think you're a somebody. Thank you. Aw. Bruce Clark, everybody.

Bruce Clark loves to hate Kate. It's time for the bare-knuckle round. We're debating whether you're no one until someone hates you. So be ready and villain. That was intentional. Be ready and villain to have loathe of fun as we previously discussed.

Time to contempt fate and get things in emotion. So all abhorred. Starting now. So, all abhorred, starting now! I mean, here's the thing, Nick. I've known you a long time. You're a great comic. You're a lovely person. And I think you're dwelling on the negative attributes that you have, like a lot of people do. And what you have to do is think of yourself

as a great comic and a lovely human being. And I think things can change for you. You have a turkey neck! Oh come on, Vicki, Vicki! I've broad shoulders, I can take it, I just think that you really need to figure out the positive things in your life. Suck it, Bruce! You know what? I do hate you.

Turn that one around. I win! I guess that's all right. That's the Maranucle Round. All right. That's the bear and up around. All right. It is time now for the firing line in my hand. I have a list of questions on being no one until someone hates you. Brought to you by a British holiday movie that never quite caught on.

Hate, actually. Indeed.com says, if your co-workers dislike you, some things that you can do are use kindness, be gracious when you succeed, offer assistance when needed, and what else? Bruce. Offer made. Like cleaning services? Metaphorically, yes. Oh. Nicky Payne?

Well, it's been my experience that when coworkers dislike you, you get promoted to middle management. Nice one. when coworkers dislike you, you get promoted to middle management. Ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha! Ha ha ha! Ha! Nice one. Nice one. One official point.

No, use kindness, be gracious when you succeed, and consider working from home. Pfft! Ha ha ha! Ha ha ha! Ha ha ha! Ha ha ha! Ha ha ha!

Love that answer. I can't, I can't improve on that. Finish the title of this 2003 song from Canadian band Three Days Grace. I hate what? Nikki? Myself. Nope. Bruce?

Three Days Grace, the name of the song was, I Hate the Name of Our Band. I will give a point for that. That's pretty good. No, it was, I Hate Everything About You. Good talk everybody, that's the firing line. Winnipeg, it is almost time now for our Jubilee Place theater audience to vote. But first, here again to explain his hate-hate relationship with being hated, let's hear again from the always affable Bruce Clark.

What does Mussolini, Popat, Stalin, Leopold, and that chubby guy from North Korea all have in common? Nikki Payne thinks they are somebody. Laughter Jesus, Martin Luther King, St. Francis of Assisi, the Buddha, Mother Teresa, Tommy Douglas, my own mother. What do these people have in common? I don't really know any of them. I can help you, Nicky.

Come to California where I live. We can pick an orange right off the tree. We can sit around the pool, drink margaritas, and mock my American neighbors. You'll be transformed. And before you know it, we won't be calling you Nikki Payne. You'll be known around the world as Nikki Pleasure.

Oh! Thank you, Steve. Bruce! Bruce Clark. Wow. What kind of business are you going to put me in in California? Now here to tell us again why being hated has motivated her, let's hear from the love to hate, but just love really, Nikki Payne.

Just like it's stooge of a sibling love, the more you give hate away, the more it grows. The greatest wars of all time were fueled by it. We don't even learn in history books about countries that sorted out their issues and hugged it out, do we? No, no, no, no, no. There's no limit to what hatred can accomplish. For if enough people hate you children, you too can become the president of the United States. Nikki Payne everybody.

Nikki Payne. Sustained. Passionate. All right audience, it is up to you to decide by applause how many of you hailed Bruce's hearing against hate Bruce Clark And who preferred Nicky's loathe language Nikki Payne All right. All right. The audience has spoken and they love to hate Nikki Payne.

She's the winner, Nikki Payne. You're nobody until somebody hates you. Big hand for Nikki Payne and Bruce Clark, everybody. Well, that's all for this week. I'm Steve Patterson saying I hope you don't have hate for anyone unless they really, really, really deserve it. I'll argue with you again soon, Canada. Good night!

The Debaters is created by Richard Side. This week's episode was produced by Nicole Callender, Chloe Edbrook, Dean Jenkinson, and Graham Clark, with continuity by Graham Clark, Diana Francis, and Gary Jones. Technical production by James Perella, May McKillop, and Lloyd Peterson. Story editing by Gary Jones. Technical production by James Perella, Mae McKillop and Lloyd Peterson. Story editing by Gary Jones. With special thanks to Katie Ellen Humphrey's David Pride and Emily Ferrier. Executive producer of CBC Radio Comedy is Lee Pitts. And thanks to everyone

at the Jubilee Place Theatre and the Winnipeg Comedy Festival.