The Decibel - An impossible offer for Canadian children detained in Syria

Episode Date: February 10, 2023

The federal government has offered to bring some Canadian children being held in detention camps in Syria to Canada – but their mothers can’t come with them. This is part of an ongoing issue for the government over what to do about men and women who are suspected of joining the Islamic State terrorist organization — and what to do with their children.The Globe’s Janice Dickson has been covering this issue since the Islamic State fell in 2019 and has spoken to one of the mothers facing this difficult decision.Questions? Comments? Ideas? Email us at [e-mail]

Dozens of Canadians who are suspected of joining the Islamic State have been held in detention camps in Syria for years. Their children are detained, too. Last month, the federal government said they would bring some of them home. But there are four women and their Canadian children who are facing a difficult situation. The kids can come to Canada, but their mothers can't. Janice Dixon is a reporter in the Globe's Ottawa Bureau. She's been covering these repatriation efforts and discussions since the Islamic State fell in 2019.

I'm Maina Karaman-Wilms, and this is The Decibel from The Globe and Mail. Janice, thank you so much for joining me today. Thanks so much for having me. You've been in touch with one of the women who's caught up in this latest repatriation effort. Who is she and what can you tell me about her? Yeah, so the Canadian government has agreed to repatriate a number of Canadian women and their children who have been detained in these camps for those suspected of joining or having ties to ISIS. And outside of that group, there are four women who are not Canadian, but have Canadian children. And so I talked to one of these women who said that her children were offered to be repatriated to Canada, the government,

a government official had approached her and said, you know, do you consider our offer to repatriate your children, but not you because you're not Canadian? Wow. What do we know about where she is right now and what her situation is? Yeah, so she's in a camp known as Raj in northeast Syria, which is run by Kurdish authorities. And she has three children. The eldest is nine, and he's autistic with a number of health problems. And her second eldest is a seven-year-old boy who she said was badly burned recently. He fell on a carotene lamp and, you know, that's what they rely on for

heating in the tents. And yeah, she said that he, you know, had all these terrible itchy burns with not a lot of medical care there. And her youngest is a three-year-old, a little girl who she said was born in the camp and, you know, has all these burns all over her skin from the sun because there's, you know, little protection from the tent. So yeah, she said she's really worried about her children and their future. Yeah, I mean, it sounds like that's a pretty difficult situation that family is in. So her kids are Canadian because their father is Canadian. Do we know anything about him? That's right. So she said that the father of her children, who's Canadian, is detained in a prison elsewhere in northeast Syria. And so it's

important to mention that in 2019, after ISIS's final holdout in this town, Baghouz crumbled. Kurdish officials started rounding people up that had been in that territory. And the women and children were placed in two camps, and the men were taken to prisons. Okay. So he was taken to prison, essentially. She and her children were brought to this camp. And so they've been there ever since then? That's right. And she hasn't seen him since then. And why can't you tell me her name? So unfortunately, we can't share her name because she fears retribution from others in the camp.

Okay. And how did you get in touch with her? An organization that has been advocating for Canadians detained in these camps for years helped put me in touch with the woman. Okay. So the situation she's in then is the kids can kind of get to a safer environment in Canada, but because she's not Canadian, she can't. Is there the possibility that they could, I guess, go to the country that she's from instead and find safety there? In her circumstance, she is from a country that has really grave human rights violations and the future or the fate of the four of them is quite uncertain. We're not identifying the country that she's from because it would or could also identify this woman. You know, she feels pretty strongly that, you know, there's really no hope for her or her

kids there. Is there any way that she could come to Canada with her kids? Like, there must be some possibility of making this happen. Like, has anyone mentioned an option here? So there are a group of lawyers and advocates working on this on her behalf and three other women who are in a similar circumstance. And they are applying for temporary resident permits for these women and asking the government essentially if they will grant these women the ability to come to Canada and be with their children. It's really not clear how the government will respond. You know, the government has been incredibly reluctant to repatriate any of its own citizens to date. So this new proposal of bringing foreign women with their Canadian children

could be a bit of a battle for this legal team. And so what happens if her children do come to Canada, but without her and she has to stay there? So when the global affairs official was talking to her about this, they said to her that you may not even be able to communicate with your children after they're repatriated to Canada. It depends on the foster care that they're placed with. So, you know, what happens when the children are brought to Canada is really unclear. I mean, some of the advocates that I've been speaking to say that this really depends on, you know, the relatives of the men. And some of the men, I mean, it's impossible to

reach them. And so it means finding their relatives, if there are relatives and asking them about taking these children and otherwise they're, you know, going to be placed with foster families for the time being. I mean, that's a pretty impossible decision for someone to make, like, especially knowing the situation that her kids are in in that camp. It sounds like that's a pretty difficult reality for them right now. How is this woman feeling about having to make that decision? Did you get a sense from her, Janice? was really emphasizing the challenge with her eldest son who is non-verbal and really relies on her for absolutely everything. She said that he needs surgery, his teeth are rotting because he has a digestive issue and there's no medical treatment for him. She said there's no one there that really knows anything about special needs or providing him with the assistance that he needs.

And she, you know, she really can't imagine being separated from him or her other children. But, you know, he requires a lot of care. And so she's quite worried about that. We'll be back in a moment. So the Islamic State was a terrorist organization which claimed territory in Iraq and Syria. They were people from all over the world who traveled there and joined them. How many Canadians are we talking about here who are suspected of joining the Islamic State and are in this kind of limbo situation? And how many of them have either been repatriated or are still in camps?

So in 2020, Human Rights Watch came out with a report that estimated 47 Canadians were detained in these camps and prisons across northeast Syria. Since then, there have been a few cases of Canadians that have been repatriated. An orphan, a little girl, she was repatriated. There was another woman that had been repatriated. And so there have been sort of a few select cases where people have come back to Canada. And most recently, there was an agreement reached in federal court that the government would repatriate 23 Canadians, and that's 13 children and six women. Initially, there were four Canadian men who were part of that application, but not part of the agreement. So the government agreed to repatriate the Canadian women and children, but not the men. And then, you know, the next day, a federal court judge directed the government to also repatriate four men detained in prison.

Do we know why there's a different approach to the men here as opposed to the women and children? So I think the Canadian government has been a little bit more keen to take back the women and children in general, because the children are victims. They had no choice in being in these regions that had been controlled by ISIS for some time. And so I think that the policy towards women and children has been quite a bit different. Okay, yeah. And Janice, what has the federal government, the Canadian federal government said about these repatriation efforts? Well, this is part of the reason why it's so challenging to answer these questions, because the government has not been transparent about its policy toward repatriating Canadians or the mothers of Canadian children. They have said recently that they're

reviewing the federal court decision that is directing them to help these four Canadian men that were part of that court application. But they really have not communicated very much at all about this issue. These four women that are in a situation where their kids are Canadian but they're not, has the government said anything about them? They haven't. In fact, I asked for a comment I'm sure every day for a week and they would not say anything about it at all.

Why not? Why would the government not want to come out and make statements about this? It is unusual to get no information at all, especially on this issue, because for years, you know, the government would say, we can't help people in these camps, always pointing out that they care about the children and they're aware of the children. But that because Canada has no diplomatic presence in the country, it's challenging, you know, for security reasons, to help the Canadians detained in these camps. And so they had this line that they used over and over again for years. And now that there's movement, you know, they

obviously can't use this as an excuse anymore, because they've agreed to take back 23 Canadians. And in the past, there's been, as I said, these isolated cases of people making their way back with the help of the Canadian government. So yeah, they, you know, they use this excuse for so long that clearly, you know, wasn't the case. And so now I think that they're just trying to maybe figure out how to, you know, chart their course forward. Yeah. And I mean, I wonder if this is part of this is kind of popular opinion to and the government trying to do things in a way that I guess they think the broader public would agree with. Is this a tricky issue for the government in terms of what popular opinion thinks about this? Absolutely. This has been a really difficult

political issue for the government. And of course, when that final ISIS territory started crumbling in 2019, there was a federal election that year. And that year, for months, there were human rights organizations, security experts saying that Canada should repatriate its citizens as these groups were calling on other governments to do the same. But with an election looming, it was going to be really unpopular to repatriate people with suspected ties to ISIS. And so they didn't do it and ignored these calls. And now it's years later with, you know, these children in terrible conditions, it sounds like from this mother and other lawyers that are helping them. And now they're finally, you know, sort of had their hand forced to bring them back. Yeah. So is the argument against bringing these individuals to Canada,

is it essentially a security concern? I think it's a combination of security and public backlash. And I remember at the time, you know, 2019 into 2020, some national security experts and legal experts talked about the challenge of finding evidence and prosecuting people and, you know, what would happen when people returned. But, you know, some of those same individuals are now saying, well, we are seeing charges being laid, we are seeing peace bonds. And so people that are returning are being dealt with. And I've also heard from advocates about rehabilitation and that sort of

thing. So it does seem that the government has been prepared, despite its unwillingness to bring people here to respond when they do actually arrive. So have people actually been charged when they have come back to Canada? Have we actually seen charges laid then? Some people have been charged and others have been placed on peace bonds. And as I understand it, are living with a lot of restrictions at the moment. And in some cases, there can be a peace bond

before charges are eventually laid. So it's fair to say that these people are coming back and they're being tracked very closely. And I believe at least one woman was charged with terrorism. Isn't that right? That's right. Okay. So there is an argument to say, bring people back, we can charge them here, essentially. I guess even bigger picture, Janice, like, what is the argument of bringing people back? Like, I guess, why not just leave people there?

Well, national security experts say that, you know, if you leave people there, in general, you have the risk of people escaping and, you know, going into other countries or kids becoming radicalized. The longer that they stay there, they're in a terrible environment with people suspected of joining ISIS, right? So, you know, they're not facing the justice system there. They're languishing. I'm sure they're angry. And so it's a terrible environment to leave people who, you know, were in this region in the first place. And also, you know, Canadians have a right to return home. And so I know that that is what these lawyers in general have been arguing for quite some time.

Yeah, I guess when it really comes down to it, that's a really key point. As a Canadian citizen, you have the right to come back to this country. Exactly. Canada isn't the only government dealing with this issue, of course. How have other countries been handling it, Janice? Right. So for quite a while, Canada had lagged behind its allies on this. And Human Rights Watch said in just this past December that Canada had repatriated four people.

And at that same time, France had repatriated 58, Germany had repatriated 12. And I know the US has been bringing men back, charging, sentencing them. And so to date, Canada has been behind. But now with this latest court agreement, this push to bring people back, the numbers are likely to level out a little bit. I want to ask you about the UK, though, because I think they were doing something where they were actually revoking people's citizenship. Can you tell me about that? That's right. There's been a few cases where the U.K. stripped its dual nationals of its U.K. citizenship. And one case that I'm quite familiar with is that of Jack Letts, who was a Canadian U.K. citizen.

And the government stripped his citizenship, leaving him only with his Canadian citizenship. And so his mom actually lives here. And I spoke with her recently because he is a part of the court application where the federal judge said that Canada has to repatriate these four men. He is one of the UK to sort of leave these citizens in the hands of other countries, right? Yeah, yeah, because it seems like they know that if they even if they would take away the citizenship, there's another country that's going to be left then to have to make that decision. And so in this case, Canada's left having to do that. So just lastly here, Janice, I just want to go back to the woman that you spoke to in that camp who's facing that impossible decision to either let her kids go to Canada and potentially never see them again or to

stay with them in that camp. Do we know how long she has to decide what to do? So she was told on January 26, that she had about a week and a half. Now that has since passed. And so I anticipate that she has some time since I haven't heard any updates since. And she does have, you know, a team of lawyers that are assisting her. And so we'll have to wait and see how that all plays out. Janice, thank you so much for your reporting here and for taking the time to talk to me today. Thank you for having me. That's it for today. I'm Mainika Raman-Wellms.

Our producers are Madeline White Cheryl Sutherland and Rachel Levy-McLaughlin David Crosby edits the show Kasia Mihailovic is our senior producer and Angela Pichenza is our executive editor Thanks so much for listening and I'll talk to you next week