The Decibel - Canada is taking on the Taliban over women’s rights

Episode Date: September 30, 2024

Canada has joined three other countries in a legal process to hold the Taliban accountable for discriminating against women by enacting increasingly oppressive laws. These range from barring them from education beyond the sixth grade, to a ban on women’s voices being heard in public. Globe reporter Janice Dickson talks about what life is like for women in Afghanistan now, how this legal challenge is expected to work and the significance of this attempt to hold the Taliban to account.Questions? Comments? Ideas? Email us at [e-mail]

In the 70s, most of the civil servants were women. Over half the teachers, doctors. There were women jurists, lawyers. In every profession. And then the world upended. That's actress Meryl Streep, speaking last week at the United Nations about women's rights in Afghanistan. And today in Kabul, a female cat has more freedoms than a woman. A cat may go sit on her front stoop and feel the sun on her face.

A bird may sing in Kabul, but a girl may not, and a woman may not in public. Last week, Canada and three other countries launched an unprecedented legal case over the Taliban's restrictions on women's rights. Their rules now limit all aspects of women's lives, from access to education to policing where they can speak. Janice Dixon is The Globe's international affairs reporter, and she's been reporting on Afghanistan and Afghan refugees since the Taliban rose to power in 2021. She'll tell us about the potential impact of trying to hold the Taliban legally accountable for discrimination against women. I'm Maina Karaman-Wilms, and this is The Decibel from The Globe and Mail. Janice, thank you so much for being here. Thanks so much for having me.

Janice, I know you've had the chance to talk to many Afghan women about their experiences both before and after the Taliban regained power in 2021. Can you tell me what they've said about how their lives have changed? Well, I've spoken to quite a few women who had, you know, lived under this current Taliban regime for either a few months or a year before finally making it to Canada. And I've asked them, what is life like under the Taliban in recent times? And what was life like before? And they've said life wasn't absolutely perfect before, but it was a whole other world. They could go to school, go to university, they could work, socialize in public. And they've since 2021, when the Taliban seized power, lost all of those rights. And I know you were covering this in 2021, when the Western forces withdrew from Afghanistan after being there for two decades. Can you just remind us, what was that withdrawal like for people in Afghanistan?

It was totally chaotic. It was a huge shock to everybody. You know, the Taliban had been making gains across Afghanistan, seizing different provinces before ultimately taking Kabul. And a lot of Afghans that I spoke with were sort of preparing for an eventual take over and wanted out of the country. But still, it seemed to come at such a shock, and for so many. And so what it looked like was just people scrambling to leave the country. Yeah, yeah, I remember it really was a real chaotic time. And there was a lot of fear,

I believe, right from from people who were there. I mean, I think we can all still remember the images of people clinging to planes as they're taking off the tarmac. It was just an incredible hard time. Yeah. OK, coming back to the issue of women's lives under the Taliban now, Janice, what are the specific restrictions that they're facing? Well, women were barred from continuing their university studies. Girls are prevented from going to school past grade six. Their employment has been increasingly restricted over this time. I believe now women are only allowed to work in certain professions,

whether it's the medical field or elementary school. And so there's really no opportunities for women at all. I talked to a 14-year-old who told me that she had always dreamed of a career in economics, but at the time I spoke with her, she was in sixth grade. And a few months after that, her education would come to an end. Now, that interview was in 2022. And so now I'm thinking about this young girl and she's no longer in school and it's just, it's terrible. But from some of the reporting I've done in the past and some more reading I've done

recently is that there are increasingly girls turning to online education, sort of sneaking in these hours as they can at home. That's really restricted to girls that can access the internet, of course. So if you're in a rural area, then you wouldn't have access to that. And I think there's still a lot of fear of, you know, being caught enrolling in an online school and also fear that, you know, someday that opportunity will be taken away. And then, of course, now, most recently this summer, there's these new rules in place, right, about women's faces and voices. Janice, tell us about those. Yeah, that's right. So these decrees came in at the end of August, where the Taliban basically issued a ban on women's voices being heard in public and their bare faces being

shown. I mean, that's pretty extreme. Is this the first time this has happened in Afghanistan? So I ran this by a former Afghan lawmaker who said that when the Taliban were in power previously, they had similar laws, and particularly around a woman's voice being heard in public. They had a verbal order regarding that law. The difference here is that there's a written decree and it's under their ministry for promoting virtue and preventing vice. But I think it's important to remember that so many women living in Afghanistan live in such fear already. You know, the women I've talked to who have spent time under the Taliban say that they're, you know, they're basically in their homes, they're in hiding, they're fearful of going outside. Those who have been outside describe it

as a ghost town. So these are part of a suite of decrees where the Taliban shows they're tightening their grip on the Afghan population. They've also banned playing music. They've banned women from traveling alone. They've banned mixing of men and women who are not related to each other. They are increasingly finding ways to restrict the population. We'll be right back. So Janice, as a result of these restrictions on women in particular, four countries, including Canada, are trying to hold Afghanistan legally accountable here. Who was involved and what is the mechanism that they're using? So, right. Canada, Germany, Australia and the Netherlands have initiated this legal process to hold the Taliban accountable for discrimination against women. And there are a few steps in this process, but ultimately it could end up before

the International Court of Justice. And so they've brought this case forward under the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women. So that's a treaty that was adopted by the UN in 1979. And Afghanistan is a signatory. They had signed on to this decree before the Taliban takeover in 2021. And this convention has a mechanism for settling disputes that come up over its application. So these countries are arguing that the Taliban is not respecting the terms of this convention. And so they're using the mechanism within this convention to ultimately try and bring about justice for women.

Okay. And so the first step is that basically they brought this forward. What happens next? So the four countries issued a declaration on Thursday. And in this declaration, they said that they notified the Taliban that they're prepared to negotiate. So that is the very first step of the dispute settlement process. And that that negotiation happens within a reasonable amount of time. So that's not defined. And I guess, in theory, they, you know, they'll see how the Taliban responds maybe they'll they'll go back at them again if that fails then the next step is arbitration and if that fails they can submit the dispute to the international court of justiceitive Afghan women and misrepresent the situation.

And he said it's absurd to accuse the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan of violating human rights and gender discrimination. Okay. So that response kind of sounds like they're not going to cooperate then essentially with this process? That's right. And I mean, I'm sure that that is what most were likely anticipating. I don't know how the next step, which is arbitration will unfold, or even how the final step of bringing a submission, you know, sort of without the Taliban's engagement, what kind of impact these steps will have if the Taliban has no interest in participating in these conversations. Janice, experts in human rights groups, have they reacted to this case coming forward?

And what have they said? They have. And they said it was positive. A few Afghan women I talked to had some suggestions that they thought would make this more effective. But ultimately, they thought that it's, you know, a legal tool, an accountability mechanism. It puts some pressure on the Taliban because the Taliban wants to be recognized as the government of Afghanistan. They have frozen assets in other countries. They need to unleash that. They want aid to flow into the country.

And all of that is out of the question until they give women their rights back. Okay, so in a way, this is a tactic to put pressure on the Taliban. Now, Janice, you mentioned that some experts have suggestions about the way that this is being done. What have you heard from them? Well, I talked to a former Afghan lawmaker, and she fled Afghanistan after the Taliban took over and is based in Washington now.

And we were talking about this and, you know, she was worried about this particular combination of countries and that the Taliban would see these countries and think, well, you're trying to impose your Western values on us and thought a Muslim majority country would really bolster this case. Is there the potential that another country might actually sign on to this? It's my understanding that they are, you know, gathering support and a number of countries have signed on to signal their support. But I'm not sure if to date, a Muslim majority

country has signed on, but certainly she and others have said that that would help. Later on, you know, she had some suggestions for how things could unfold in another way that would improve the case. And a number of people made the same point that Afghan women really have to be at the center of this. You know, you've got these countries bringing forth the case because Afghan women are not a state, they can't bring forth such case, but that their testimonies, their ideas, you know, from legal points to a communication strategy, all of those things should be really at the center of this effort. So this legal challenge is happening because of a UN treaty. And I want to just ask about that relationship between the UN and the Taliban, because, of course, a lot of countries, including

Canada, don't recognize the Taliban as the government of Afghanistan. So does the UN still work with them? The UN has said that they will continue to engage because they are, you know, supporting so many people who need their aid in the country. Okay. Just lastly here, Janice, it sounds like the Taliban has already said they're not receptive to this case and to moving forward with engaging here. What happens if they just refuse to cooperate? Are there any repercussions? what will happen or what could happen if the Taliban refuses to participate in any way. And if there are any repercussions because they are already so isolated. There's a lot of questions and experts out there sort of wondering or pointing out that it's symbolic. It is important that Afghan women are shown by these countries and others that they're not totally alone, that there are, you know, there are countries and people trying to fight for them.

But I think it really brings into focus how difficult that is. Yeah. Janice, thank you so much for taking the time to be here today. Thanks so much for having me. That's it for today. I'm Mainika Raman-Wilms. This episode was produced by Kevin Sexton and edited by Allie Graham. Our producers are Madeline White, Michal Stein, and Allie Graham. David Crosby edits the show. Adrienne Chung is our senior producer, and Matt Frainer is our managing editor. Thanks so much for listening, and I'll talk to you tomorrow.