The Decibel - Canadians executed in China as tensions grow

Episode Date: March 26, 2025

Last week, Global Affairs Canada confirmed that China has executed four Canadians since the beginning of the year. The move further escalates already tense diplomatic relations between the two countries.Meanwhile, China’s retaliatory tariffs on Canadian goods went into effect on Thursday. And all of this is happening in the middle of Canada’s trade war with the United States. Now, Canada finds itself fighting its two biggest trading partners – while they fight with each other.Today, the Globe’s Asia correspondent, James Griffiths, joins us from Hong Kong. He’ll explain the news of these Canadian executions, the impact of China’s retaliatory tariffs, and what these rising tensions mean for the relationship between Canada and China.Questions? Comments? Ideas? Email us at [e-mail]

Last Wednesday, we learned that China has executed four Canadians this year. Canada has had challenging diplomatic relations with China for years, but this news escalated those tensions. China also announced tariffs on Canadian goods earlier this month. Those came into effect last week. All of this is happening in the middle of Canada's trade war with the United States. And so, Canada finds itself fighting with our two biggest trading partners

while they fight with each other. So today, James Griffiths joins us from Hong Kong. He's the Globe's Asia correspondent. He'll explain the news of these Canadian executions, the impact of China's tariffs, and what these rising tensions mean for the relationship between Canada and China. I'm Menaka Raman-Wilms, and this is The Decibel from The Globe and Mail. James, thanks so much for being here. Thanks for having me. So Foreign Affairs Minister Melanie Zholi confirmed last week that China has executed

four Canadians since the start of the year, and she was initially responding to reporting from The Globe, actually. James, what do we know about those who were killed? Well, at the moment, we know very little. Melanie Jolie confirmed that four Canadians, four Canadian-Chinese dual nationals were executed at some point earlier this year. My reporting suggests that that was in February, but we have not managed to confirm that.

Ottawa has said that they're in touch with the families of those who've been killed, but those families have requested to remain anonymous and not be identified. And global affairs has kind of requested that the media does not bother or try and identify these families at this time. I mean, this seems like a significant thing, right? How big a deal would you say this is for China to carry out the death penalty against Canadians? Yeah, this is a huge escalation from what we've typically seen in the past. You know, China executes more people than any other country in the world, but typically does not execute Westerners, even dual nationals. China does not recognize dual nationalities. So

from China's perspective, if these people were Canadian Chinese, they would have been Chinese from Beijing's perspective. But even so, China rarely executes dual nationals and rarely executes people with Western passports. So this would be a big deal if it had been a single execution to have four either consecutively or at the same time is a really, really big deal. Ottawa condemned them as inconsistent with basic human dignity. We had the conservative foreign affairs critic Michael Chong, who was saying that this was unprecedented and would damage relations between Beijing and Ottawa. So this is a huge development. Okay. So as you just said, Ottawa condemns these killings. How has China responded to all of this? What have they said? Matthew 14

China's embassy in Canada defended the executions in a statement soon after our reporting. They said that these were carried out under the rule of law, that these people have been found guilty for crime and had to face the punishment. You know, China is typically bullish in defending its executions. And it did not really acknowledge that this was something that could have been prevented or should have been. Jess And James, do we have any sense of why we saw these four executions now? I mean, we don't. And a lot of people have kind of suggested that this is a very significant political message by Beijing because this was not simply a matter of

the Chinese justice system taking its course. As far as we're aware, nearly every death sentence that had been handed to a Canadian was quite some time ago. So these people who have recently been executed had been on death row for quite some time. And so the fact that they were suddenly, from our perspective, executed and that there were four executions at once or in very quick succession does seem like some kind of intentional message from Beijing for a lot of people. Do we know, James, are there any other Canadians who are currently being detained in China? We believe there's around 100 Canadians currently

in various forms of detention in China, mostly in prison. These are not people on death row, though there are a number of Canadians who have also been handed the death penalty, but that's not yet been carried out. And do we know what they are in prison for? So this is a range of offenses. So it could be anything from things like immigration crimes

right up to alleged drug trafficking. It's very difficult when we're talking about prison censuses in China or people who have been found guilty in the criminal justice system, because this is a system that has a more than 99% conviction rate. So that practically means if you are accused of a crime in China, you end up being found guilty of it. So it's very difficult for us to kind of talk about it and, you know, use words like alleged or found guilty because essentially anyone who's

alleged to have done a crime is found guilty. So, yeah, as you said, there's around 100 Canadians being detained in China. I want to ask you about one person in particular. This is Robert Schellenberg. We've been hearing a lot about him because he has been held for over a decade now. What do we know about his situation, James? James Hickman So Robert Schellenberg was a hugely controversial case. He was arrested in 2014 and accused of drug offenses. He was initially found guilty of drug trafficking and given a 15-year sentence in 2018, which is a fairly stringent sentence, especially in a system as tough as China's. But then a year

later, following the detention in Vancouver of Huawei executive Meng Wanzhou and the kind of plummeting of relations between Ottawa and Beijing, Beijing suddenly decided to reassess Schellenberg's sentence. They reopened the case and the court then handed him the death penalty. And so he's now had the death penalty hanging over him ever since 2019. So he's been detained since that time. And as you say, this sentence is kind of hanging over him. Do we have any sense of what could happen next?

So Mr. Schellenberg has appealed his sentence. That appeal was rejected, as nearly all appeals are in China. And the case is currently sitting with the Supreme People's Court, which has to approve every death penalty. And that is a process that sometimes can take months, sometimes take years. currently sitting with the Supreme People's Court, which has to approve every death penalty. And that is a process that sometimes can take months, sometimes take years. In Mr. Schellenberg's

case, it has taken years, but you know, could come down any day. There is a lot of concern and lobbying going on behind the scenes at the moment to try and ensure that Mr. Schellenberg, especially after these recent executions, that he is not imminently facing the death penalty. So could you tell us a little bit more about that? Like what has the Canadian federal government, I guess in particular, what have they been doing in response? So Ms. Shelley, the Foreign Affairs Minister,

she has said that both she and former Prime Minister Justin Trudeau have been involved in lobbying. They were lobbying for the four people who were already executed. Now they've been lobbying for Mr. Schellenberg as well. Obviously diplomats in Beijing have for a long time been lobbying. They have periodic access to Mr. Schellenberg

and see him in custody. I'm in access to Mr. Schellenberg and see him in custody. I'm in touch with Mr. Schellenberg's lawyers, and they say that these visits are continuing, which is a vaguely positive sign that maybe execution isn't imminent. OK, so it seems like kind of an ongoing situation there, where we have to kind of watch what happens. But James, of course, our relationship with China,

meaning Canada's relationship with China, it has been challenging for a number of years now. You did bring up the 2018 arrest of Meng Wanzhou, the Huawei executive, and then of course we saw the subsequent arrest of the two Michaels by China. I guess I wonder, broadly speaking here, James, have there been any significant attempts since then to de-escalate these ongoing tensions really between our two countries? There was a lot of hope in September 2021 when Meng Wanzhou and the two Michaels were both released and a kind of settlement was reached in that case. There was a lot of hope that that would lead

to an improvement in relations. But the problem that subsequently happened was the attention to alleged foreign interference in Canada then massively spiked up with China being one of the leading concerns there. We had the federal inquiry, which only just wrapped up a few months ago. So this was something that has then hung over the relationship concerns there. We had the federal inquiry, which only just wrapped up a few months ago. So this was something that has then hung over

the relationship ever since. And that's been a real dampener on improving ties. Yeah. You're referring to, of course, this foreign interference into Canadian politics, Canadian elections in particular. And yes, China was alleged to have been interfering there. Yeah. And so obviously, whenever federal officials

were meeting with their Chinese counterparts, this was something that they had to bring up. That wasn't something that was necessarily conducive to improving relations. Beijing obviously did not appreciate these allegations and was pretty aggressive in how it responded to them. We have seen in the last year, Ottawa kind of made another outreach.

There was some breakthroughs in Beijing. There was a little bit more diplomatic engagement with the Canadian embassy there. Then in July 2024, we had this sudden surprise visit by Ms. Shuli to Beijing where she met with her Chinese counterparts and other Chinese officials. It seemed that maybe we were moving towards some kind of reset. But then, a month after Ms. Shuli gets back to Canada, Ottawa decides to follow the US in imposing 100% tariffs on Chinese electric vehicles. This greatly angered Beijing.

Beijing announced it would have to respond, said this was against World Trade Organization rules and we essentially went back to square one in the relationship. We'll be right back. So James, there's also now heightened tensions around our trade relationship with China. Canada announced tariffs on China in August. These came into effect in October of 2024. They're still in effect now. Can you tell us what exactly are these tariffs? 2024. They're still in effect now. Can you tell us what exactly are these tariffs? So these tariffs included a 100% levy against Chinese made electric vehicles and a 25% tariff on Chinese steel and aluminium. And they followed similar measures that were taken in the US under the then administration of President Joe Biden. So these are quite significant numbers. Significant on paper, less significant in terms of how they actually affected Canadian

consumers or if your concern is around labor rights in the supply chain, how they would have any influence on that because no Chinese manufacturers were selling EVs in Canada. Why exactly did Canada say it was imposing these tariffs if, as you said, practically it didn't really have an impact in the here and now, why go through this? You know, the justification for this was to protect the nascent Canadian EV market. And also, it justified this by saying that Chinese EVs are given huge subsidies by Beijing, that they've

had unfair competition in this wider global market, and also cited some concerns about labor rights in the Chinese supply chain. But critics have kind of said this is actually cutting Canadian consumers off from Chinese EVs, which are very good and among the cheapest in the world, at a time when Ottawa and other governments are trying to reduce emissions. But we also have to look at the wider political context, which is these EVs were introduced within weeks of a similar move by the US and came after a parent US lobbying in Ottawa to follow suit. So this seemed to be about sticking with what was then our closest geopolitical ally

and following their lead on China. Okay, so we actually impose these tariffs in a way, maybe it seems like because the US did something similar and we kind of want to want to be in step with them. Yeah, absolutely. And that's how Beijing saw this as well, that Beijing was not just annoyed that Ottawa had hit it with tariffs, but it apparently hit it with tariffs in response and at the lead of the US. China did announce retaliatory tariffs on Canada for this. Just earlier this month, they made this announcement and these tariffs came into effect on March 20th.

What exactly do these tariffs target? So the Chinese measures are far more targeted than the Canadian ones and will have a much bigger effect. There are 100 percent levy on Canadian canola oil, oil cakes and pea imports and a 25 percent duty on Canadian pork and aquatic products. And these are major exports from Canada to China. According to the Canola Council of Canada, Canada exports around $5 billion worth of Canola products to China every year. And about a billion dollars of that

is Canola meal and oil, which will now be subject to these 100% tariffs, which will essentially wipe out that market. And this is a sector that China has long known is a potential pain point for Canada. They previously targeted Canola during the two Michael saga. And almost immediately after the EV tariffs were announced, China said it would be conducting an anti-dumping investigation into Canola. And we're actually still waiting for the results of that investigation. So that's that's separate to these tariffs. So this could still escalate. When you say anti-dumping investigation, what does that mean? So that's kind of a response to the Canadian assertion that Chinese EVs were given unfair support by the government, that they were somehow kind of priced unfairly in the market.

They're essentially suggesting that Canadian canola is being dumped onto the Chinese markets at a price that competitors can't afford to beat. And so they'll be looking into whether that price needs to be adjusted, presumably, with more tariffs. So these tariffs, of course, are having an impact on us. And this is not the only country we're in a bit of a trade war with now, right? We're also in a trade war with the US.

So I imagine this is having even more of an impact on us. James, how have these industries in Canada responded? Yeah, there's been a huge amount of concern, especially from Canadian farming communities and the agricultural sector, because they are facing huge pressure from the US and now essentially are potentially going to lose the second largest market, which is China, with 100% tariffs. I mean, you cannot compete with that. And so there's been a lot of pressure on Ottawa to try and, you know, smooth this over to try and get some of the tariffs sorted. But, you know, at the same time, Ottawa is

also trying to reach some kind of deal with its southern neighbor. And this is extremely complicated and extremely difficult. It seems like we're in a pretty difficult position then if we've got kind of trade wars with our biggest trading partner and now our second biggest trading partner, we've got this situation with these increased tariffs. It seems like Canada is in a pretty difficult position on this front. Yeah, and it's made even more so by the wider geopolitics of all of this, because if this was, say, Portugal and Belgium, they might not care how you responded to the other two countries. But the problem is any response to China that is seen as bending to Beijing's

pressure or is seen as being too favorable towards Beijing could spark an additional response from Washington. And on the flip side of that, any kind of Canadian measures to follow Washington's new high pressure campaign against China in order to reduce US tariffs will presumably spark further response from Beijing. And so Canada really is stuck between two immovable forces at the moment. So James, in light of these increased tensions with China, our colleague, Steve Chase, actually recently sat down with the Chinese ambassador to Canada to discuss the ongoing relationship really between our two countries. What did we actually learn from that discussion?

Can you tell us? So to start, I mean, the fact that the embassy was willing to do this interview at all is actually quite significant. Chinese officials have not been doing these type of interviews with Canadian media for a while. When Chinese officials speak like this, especially speak to Western media, to an independent newspaper like The Globe and Mail,

they are intentionally doing so in order to send the message message and there will have been a great amount of preparation and thought into what that message is going to be. What we heard from Chinese ambassador Wang Di is that he basically described this hugely positive historical relationship between Canada and China. Canada was one of the first countries to recognize the People's Republic of China. It has had really long-standing good ties with China, including especially under the former Prime Minister's father, Pierre Trudeau. The ambassador was describing this in a slightly disappointed fashion that this is a relationship that once was very good that has deteriorated. He said, unfortunately, in the past few years, our relationship has suffered setbacks. Nevertheless, according

to the ambassador, he said China is ready to move forward, but this would require sincerity from the Canadian side. He made clear that some of that sincerity will involve not doing what he said would be to sacrifice China's interests in order to grow relations with other countries. And while he didn't name the other country, I think it's pretty clear that the message that was being sent was, look, when you're talking to Donald Trump and you're trying to fix this trade war to yourself, don't forget about us. Don't sacrifice your relationship with us. We've also heard in the past trying to take issue with Canada raising issues of human rights and human rights violations. I guess does that play into this at all, James?

Yeah, the ambassador did say that Canada should, quote, stop smearing, attacking and hyping up on various issues, which usually means to stop speaking about controversial human rights abuses in China, including the long running crackdown in Xinjiang, where China has been accused of widespread human rights abuses against the Uyghur minority, the crackdown in Hong Kong, where I am since 2019 protests, and also speaking out about the issue of Taiwan, the democratically run island, which China claims is its own. This is something that China frequently complains about. They don't like Western governments commenting on these issues. It's also one of those issues that sometimes gets held up when relations are bad as a reason

for them. But to be honest, China is pretty tolerant of when relations are good. The US has had very strong ties with China in the past and never really stopped criticizing them on human rights. Canada has also had much better relations in the past and still would issue pretty stringent criticisms on human rights and issues like Tibet and Taiwan. So I don't think that's necessarily the biggest stumbling block though, as much as Beijing would love Canada and various other countries to shut up about issues that it cares about. Well, I guess I just wonder though, because so much of this tension has happened under the tenure of former Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and his government was very vocal

in raising some of these issues. We're now in an election, James, could a new prime minister maybe help to ease these tensions? After Mr. Trudeau announced he was stepping down, I interviewed a number of Chinese analysts and foreign policy commentators and was doing a lot of reading and research on this issue just to kind of explore the feeling from the Chinese side about the potential for a reset. And that was greeted with quite a lot of skepticism. The model everyone kind of holds up is Australia, which had terrible relations with China during the COVID-19 pandemic because the right-wing government in Australia at the time was pushing for an independent investigation and this angered Beijing and also led to Beijing slapping tariffs on Australian goods. That was seemingly in the deep freeze until there was an election in Australia.

The right-wing coalition was replaced by the left-wing Labour Party. Labour have traditionally had better relations with Beijing and they swiftly kind of smooth things over. They got rid of the tariffs. They've had estate visits and things like that. And so this was seen as, oh, look, you can go from really bad relationship to improvements and pretty quickly if you have a change of government. The problem with applying that model to Canada is that the most likely result of the election that we're currently in is either the continuation of the current government,'re currently in is either the continuation of the current government, which obviously won't be a change, or its replacement by the

Conservative Party. The Conservatives are generally seen as tougher on China. They have a MP on their front bench, Michael Chong, who has been one of the primary targets of alleged Chinese interference in Canadian politics and is a very, very strident critic of China. And so it's difficult to see where improvements would come there. That's not to say that conservative governments

in the past, especially Stephen Harper's government have not had good relations with Beijing and not managed to really step up trade with Beijing. And you can imagine a kind of more pragmatic economy focused Tory government doing so. But they would have to find some way to smooth over a lot of their rhetoric over the past couple of years about thinking

that the liberals have not been tough enough on China, when obviously Beijing thinks the liberals have been far too tough. Yeah. Well, James, you did bring up the issue of foreign interference in our elections again. I wonder, is that a concern with China in our current election? So concerns have been raised that foreign actors, both China, but also India and other actors who have been alleged to have interfered in Canadian

politics could try to do so in the current election. Obviously, if there is any allegation, any kind of serious suggestion that China has been trying to put its thumb on the scale in any way, that will plummet relations once again. And so this will definitely be something people are watching for. And you know, we know Elections Canada obviously is trying to guard against this. Before I let you go, James, what else are you watching for here? So we mustn't forget Robert Schellenberg, who advocates say is at major risk of being executed. There is a lot of lobbying going on at the moment to try and prevent that from happening. But that is something that potentially could happen. We may learn about it in coming weeks. That would be as much as the original executions

that we saw this year were already an escalation. That would be a huge escalation because Mr. Schellenberg is not a dual national. He is only a Canadian passport holder. He and other Canadians imprisoned in China, they've really borne the brunt of these worsening relations because Canada has not been able to cut the kind of deal or request clemency that other nations have, including the US. And so he could really be a victim of these worsening ties. Beyond Mr. Schellenberg, there's also the possibility that tariffs could be escalated again. Like I said, that anti-dumping investigation into canola is still ongoing. The results of that could be announced and that could likely result in an expansion of tariffs on canola potentially

over the entire sector, which is a $5 billion sector, which will be a major hit for Canadian exporters. So this relationship, which has kind of gone from bad to worse to bad to worse, could yet still decline, unfortunately. Well, James, appreciate you taking the time to be here. Thank you. Thank you. Now that the federal election campaign is officially underway, we want to hear from you. election campaign is officially underway, we want to hear from you. Throughout the campaign, we'll be answering your questions about the leaders, the stories, and the issues. If you have a question for us, send us an email or a voice note to thedecibel at globeandmail.com.

We'd love to hear from you. That's it for today. I'm Maynika Ramon-Wilms. Our intern is Amber Ranson. Our producers are Madeleine White, Michal Stein, and Ali Graham. David Crosby edits the show. Adrian Chung is our senior producer,

and Matt Frainer is our managing editor. Thanks so much for listening, and I'll talk to you tomorrow.