The Decibel - Do we need a ‘buy Canadian’ movement for culture?

Episode Date: October 27, 2025

As Canadians, we’ve spent a lot of time over the past year talking about what it means to be Canadian and how to support our country. For some people, that looks like checking labels at the grocery store or limiting travel to the United States. But as the Globe’s film and deputy arts editor Barry Hertz argues, now is also the moment to bolster Canadian culture.And we’re squandering it.So today, Barry is on the show to talk about the state of the arts in Canada right now (and yes, Quebec is a different story), what the government should be doing differently, and what we stand to lose if we blow this generational opportunity to strengthen Canadian culture.Questions? Comments? Ideas? Email us at [e-mail] Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

In the wake of the ongoing trade war with the U.S. and threats to Canadian sovereignty, we spent the better part of the year talking about what it means to be Canadian and how to support our country. For some people, that means checking labels at the grocery store to see if what you're buying is made in Canada. For others, it means less travel to the U.S. But as the Globe's film and deputy arts editor Barry Hertz argues, we're falling short when it comes to supporting our arts and culture. Like the books, the movies, the music, that help us to find who we are. What are we, if not our culture?

Otherwise, we're just protecting arbitrary geographical boundaries. Are we not? So today, Barry joins us to talk about why now is such a crucial point for supporting Canada's cultural institutions, what the government should be doing, and what we could lose. if we blow this generational opportunity to strengthen Canadian culture. I'm Cheryl Sutherland, and this is the decibel from the Globe and Mail. Hi, Barry. Thanks so much for joining us today. Thank you very much for having me.

So, Barry, to start, do you think there's an example of a truly iconic Canadian movie or TV show that kind of helps us define ourselves as Canadians? I don't, and I think that's kind of the point of Canadian culture. is that we are such a diverse people with diverse backgrounds and geography and economic circumstances and history, that there is not one real show that could define us the way that perhaps in America there is. I'll give you the example that kind of just immediately comes into my head, which is the law and order franchise. Interesting. I mean, that's been around for generations.

And I feel it really is kind of trying to be emblematic of a lot of American ideals about, justice and safety, insecurity, and vigilance. And it pulls from, you know, examples that happen in real life. Exactly. It is ripped from the headlines. It is ripped from the stories of America. And it has been immensely popular, as we've seen. And I think also it has kind of had the backwards effect because if you were like me,

growing up as a middle school or high schooler, you were watching reruns of this on A&E ad nauseum in the after school. And it really informed or rather warped my view of what the Canadian justice system is supposed to look like. I'm with you with that. I remember like thinking like some of the legal system are different and definitely that's because of law and order. Exactly. Like we don't have Miranda rights here. Our judges are not allowed to dress so casually as they are in the United States nor are our lawyers.

Anyway, so that's always been kind of the funny thing. And of course, now in a kind of semi-ironic twist, one of the most popular Canadian television shows. on the air is law and order criminal intent, Toronto, which, you know, is probably one of the most watch programs got the most awards at the Canadian Screen Awards the other year. And yet it is pulling from the American system. And we are, of course, in a time when we're mulling over Canadian sovereignty. So can you help us understand why is it important that our cultural industries are a part of this conversation? Like, why does it matter that culture be a part of Canadian sovereignty.

Well, I mean, what are we talking about when we talk about Canadian sovereignty? We're talking about protecting, defending, bolstering, empowering a people, a people of Canadians. And what are we, if not our culture? What speaks to one another than the stories that we tell one another and the ones that we listen to? Otherwise, we're just protecting arbitrary geographical boundaries, are we not? So I think it goes to the sense of the core identity of what it means to be Canadian. And that is really the dreams that we have, the stories that we have, the lives that we live, and the ones that we inform one another about. So that we know more about each other, no more about our neighbor.

And thus, we care more about each other. And we want to protect each other. And we want to fight to protect each other. And if we're not doing that, if we're not fighting for that, what are we fighting for? Okay. So when we talk about cultural industries here in Canada, what exactly are we talking about? I mean, we're talking about everything that a Canadian on an average day or week or month would consume in their so-called leisure hours. Music, film, television, literature, theater, visual art.

you know, anything that kind of gives us a brief glimpse of joy or sparks our imagination or acts as a diversion from all these other many stressors in our lives. That's what culture is about. And that informs, I think, every fiber of our being, more or less. What do we have in Canada right now that bolsters this industry? I mean, we have a lot of government support. And that is because we have this big, huge, neighbor to the south of us with a huge free market machine and all the kind of market capital

in the world. And we share a language more or less. And that's what we're facing. So a lot of, you know, developed nations around the world recognize that culture is something to be supported from within and needs the, you know, resources and funding of the public sector. So very much like the UK, Australia, France, South Korea, so many places. Culture is a priority that is put in the budget and that is supported and grown over time so that people can see the culture within their own country, reflect on it, support it, and then export it to the rest of the world. It's both something of an economic strength at home, a cultural strength at home,

and a soft power measure outside. And the Trudeau administration also introduced a bill that would support the TV and film industries. That's Bill C-11, which is the Online Streaming Act. That's right. So Bill C-11, the Online Streaming Act, is in its own kind of backwards way, I feel very emblematic of the whole Elbows Up Era and Sentiment, before the Albows Up Era was even a thing. Because this is basically a piece of legislation that says, okay, all the foreign-owned streaming giants that have come into Canada, and, you know, made tons of money off subscriber revenue, your Netflix's Paramount Plus, Disney Plus, Amazon's Prime Video.

You are going to have to abide by basically the rules that the rest of the Canadian broadcast system has had to abide by for decades, which is you kick a portion of your revenue back into the Canadian production system so that Canadian productions continue to get funded. You know, Bell, Rogers, course, any Canadian broadcaster has had to do this under the old kind of streaming act. But the U.S. streamers who have come in, they were new technology, the legislation hadn't been adapted. So they were kind of had free run to gobble up subscriber revenue in Canada, viewership, take eyeballs away, and basically not participate in the actual development of Canadian culture. and the financial revenues that need to flow to those creators who need that kind of support

because we are working in such stark opposition to the Hollywood machine. Right, right. What is the state of the artists in Canada right now? You talked about the need for government funding and this Bill C-11 act, but how are the arts doing? Very badly, I would say. I mean, against all of these challenges that I'll get into in a moment, artists are still creating, right? And that's what artists do, the perseverance, the desire to. to tell their stories, the desire to build these worlds in the face of these severe Roblox.

I mean, that's incredible. And they're still doing that, but they're having a heck of a hard time doing it because, let's start with C-11. C-11 is very much on the ropes in its sense. I'm glad to work that up. That's right. The Hollywood studios have filed an appeal after the CRTC kind of instituted these measures that you have to give X percent of revenue to support Canadian media production. And that's currently working its way through the courts.

And Vicki Atreides, who is the chair of the CRTC, said, when questioned, if this appeal succeeds, what happens to C-11? Well, it might be revised. And this is something that has been in the works for so many years. And so many people were counting on seeing the end road to this, that to hear those words and so picture that reality just sets everything back so far. So that's one thing. The other thing is, public funding for the arts is slowly eroding. And we have seen promises made and promises broken. Justin Trudeau for 2021 election said he was going to permanently increase the budget of telefilm,

which is the federal arts agency, which funds so many Canadian films. That hasn't happened. Mark Carney was on the campaign trail saying he would make. sure CBC was basically a force to be reckoned with and pointed out very correctly that in terms of per capita funding from the taxpayer, the CBC is funded about 40% less than similar measures in the UK, in France, in other developed countries. So even though CBC, you know, is kind of itself a trigger word for many people, but we have it and it has such a history and it has such potential that, yes, I agree. And I was happy to hear when Mark Carney said, I'm going to

take this on, we're going to bolster it, as opposed to when Pierre Poliev was on the campaign trail, basically on a defund the CBC kind of a campaign. So that was great. And yet, now that he's in office, we've seen the CBC been requested to basically find 15% cuts. So it's kind of changing his tune a little bit here. Kind of changing his two. Now, you know, you have heard these statements come out from the CBC that this is a separate request from the additional funding. Okay, but if we're just, you know, the layman here and putting two and two together, you can't ask, say, you're going to take more and then also requests some to take away.

I get that there's infrastructural challenges and, you know, departments need to be reorganized and slimmed down, and that's part of it. But the kind of backwards talk is pretty evident and pretty dispiriting at the same time. And we have all these cuts, basically, that we've seen across Canadian heritage. which administers telephone, which is ministers the Canadian Media Fund. You don't see the support coming through that you would hope to see come through at this particular moment. We'll be right back. How has Trump's trade war affected the sector?

It's shaking it up. It's very much shaking it up. No one in the arts community wants, they're kind of stuck right now and somewhat of a limbo situation because you don't want to be too loud about what is happening in the arts and what needs to happen in terms of, you know, funding and reversals of cuts and stuff like that because then you risk putting a bright, shiny object in front of Donald Trump in the White House and saying like, oh, look at this. Maybe this is something that you should take a look at and play hardball with. So, like, the C-11 is kind of a prime example of that because even before, during the Biden administration, it was a point of contention because, of course, the U.S. streamers were going to their, you know, lobbyists and saying, like, this is kind of unfair. We're being asked to do something that we've never been asked to do. And, you know, I thought we had kind of a free trade agreement. And it was put under a microscope. But, you know, the conversation was, as with most things, pre-Trump, a little bit muted, a little bit more respectful, a little bit calmer.

And now you put something like that, something contentious in front of that, and you are risking real trouble of it burning down to nothing. So you have to be careful about ensuring that you have the support, but without risking the kind of incendiary rhetoric and headlines that could come out with so much of the other sectors under the trade negotiations. But we've also seen in other parts of the world that other countries have taken on similar measures and have had success. In France, for instance, which is very protective of its cultural interests and very supportive of the arts. They have taken on the big streamers. They've taken on Disney and saying, basically, if you want our audiences, you've got to kick in some money to support home domestic production. And they did because they realize they can't just lose France as a market. And in the end, the Netflix's and Disney's of the world are not just going to cut off Canada.

They are going to play hardball, and you would expect that. But it's always going to be a fight. But we need to have the rigor and patience and endurance on our end to keep that fight going and not roll over. Why do you think it's so hard for Canada to define itself culturally? I think it does harken back to that big neighbor we have. up to the south. Quebec and other parts aside, we share a language, we share a star system, we share a familiarity with storytelling and genre and narrative. And also, we are relatively speaking, a very young country. We're still trying to figure ourselves out. I don't think that's a

secret. So those elements plus our wide geographic diversity, it all adds up to a challenge to get that kind of cultural solidity that could act as, you know, something of a bulwark to these current times so that we can all kind of stand up in one voice and say, you know, this is our Canadian identity, this is our culture, and this is worth protecting. How do you think we can learn from other countries who are doing a better job of supporting their arts and culture? Well, I think, you know, France is one place to look certainly. The UK has invested so heavily in culture and they have, you know, a...

a star system and entertainment ecosphere all their own. That would be completely foreign to any of us. These are all different factors relate to history, population density, media consumption, but it's something to look toward. And, you know, take South Korea whose cultural budget has grown by about 40% over the past decade. Wow. And that's an investment that has helped bring in billions of dollars from cultural exports and push their culture to the rest of the world.

the reason why Squid Game is, you know, currently inescapable on Netflix or K-pop Demon Hunters. Absolutely. My daughter loves that movie. And I know K-pop Demon Hunters is not technically South Korean because it's made by American. And the creative force behind it is Canadian. Yes.

Yes. But it's like culture, it's like a next level of a South Korean culture being exported because it is that popular now. Exactly. Yeah. So, you know, where is our Kinnukh Demon Hunters? I don't know. It's somewhere out there.

I'm sure somebody is capable of doing it. But it just goes to show, you know, Canada. is kind of a little bit of an outlier in this situation, in that we just, we don't feel the need generally to boast about our cultural achievement, to fund it, to properly support it, to cheerlead ourselves. It is so often the case when, you know, you ask somebody, oh, you know, what's the last great Canadian film you saw? And they're like, Canadian, I don't watch Canadian. What are you talking about like SCTV? I was like, no, like, if you just, you know, we have a big marketing problem too. But that is related to funding. We just don't have the money. Yeah. And it's not being given.

What about Quebec, though? Because Quebec, I think, is a bit of a different case. Right. Yeah. I mean, Quebec is an entirely different case. And, you know, as my colleague, Eric Andrew G. pointed out, is that they've been able to do something that the rest of English language has not, which is create a star system of their own, create that entertainment ecosystem because they want to protect their culture. They want to protect their language. And they want to protect their diversity within the kind of Quebec space. And that's commendable. And it hasn't been easy for them either.

I mean, they've, you know, they've suffered through a lot of governments that did not care about that. It's interesting you say they wanted to protect. And it's like, that's like you kind of had to have that, right? The want to protect, the want to, to have that identity protected, to have this industry grow and stay healthy. Exactly. So that's why I think it is kind of like a, it is like a little bit of a mentality problem.

You know, we each need to take it upon ourselves to think about what we value as being Canadians and what we value in our day-to-day lives and what makes us feel fulfilled and energized and enlightened and educated and break that down. Where does that come from ideally? Where should it come from more? And I think once we all take the kind of time to do that, which I know is a big ask in today's very busy world, but I think we'll come to the, to a similar answer. I think it's also fair to say that, you know, when there is a Canadian movie that does

really well, there's a lot of pride there, right? Oh, totally. I mean, you know, there's nothing a Canadian likes you are. Yeah, then seeing somebody on the world stage and say, oh, they're Canadian. We know every Canadian. We know every Canadian. Every famous Canadian. Yeah, we'll tell you.

Exactly. It's exactly that. And it's funny to look at, but it's also like a little sad that we only. celebrate and highlight once they've left Canada and gotten the validation of the world stage. Let's talk about money here. How much does the arts contribute to our economy? I mean, this is no small amount. I mean, we're talking up, you know, $63 billion plus in GDP, 600,000 workers.

So it is so easy to think of, oh, the arts, it's kind of epiphly. little thing over there in the corner. Nothing compared to the, you know, giants of the automotive sector, aerospace or agriculture. And yeah, true, relatively speaking, but it's not nothing either. It's far from nothing. And if that were to disappear or erode a kind of the current state that it is eroding, it's going to be very harmful to the national fabric. Of course, you know the term Elbows Up. We've been hearing a lot about Elbows Up when it comes to Mark Carney. But when it comes to arts and culture, how do you think he should be protecting Canada's cultural interest, raising his elbows for arts and culture? I mean, he could probably look for a new catchphrase, frankly.

I think we're, you know, we're just about in the peak of that. So enough of elbows up. Yeah, enough of elbows up. But I think he just needs to put the money where the mouth is. He loves getting on the stage and talking the commendable things that artists do and the importance of storytelling and the importance of the CBC and a national broadcaster and a national voice. okay, well, then budget accordingly. That's really, I think, where he has to start. You know, we don't want the government necessarily like meddling in what should be made and what shouldn't be made and stuff like that.

But I think it just needs to show that this is an important part of our cultural identity. This is an important part of our fabric. And let's treat it as such. But just coming up soon, so we'll see if the arts is part of it. We will see if the arts is part of it. And hopefully that budget, you know, stays for a little bit. and we're not thrown into another election where the arts community is put on tenterhooks once more. Yeah. So what you've laid out here, Barry, is not a rosy picture for the arts sector in this moment.

But are there any signs of hope you're seeing at this point? The hope is that the artists are still there. You know, they're still making their work. They're still creating in the face of everyone basically saying, why are you doing this and stop doing this? And you're not going to make a living at it. And, you know, the road ahead is apocalyptic. We're still seeing Canadian theatrical productions, like, come from away. Probably one of the most Canadian stories you could possibly tell on a stage that is currently, you know, having a moment on tour in the United States.

We have movies like Nirvana, the band, the show, the movie, which just knocked down, destroyed Austin South by Southwest Festival earlier this year before playing through the raft. at the Toronto Festival and then going on to other regional festivals in the U.S. with great acclaim. We have so many musicians toplining the charts and the radio play, not just Drake. And we have, you know, television series, even from the CBC, Heartland, you know, was picked up by Netflix in the United States and was like one of the top played things over there in kind of like a new Schitts Creek Kim's Convenience kind of situation. So these are stories and artists and people who obviously have an appeal outside of Canada, something universal.

And we should be able to support these people and support those who are following in their footsteps as well. Barry, always great to have you in the show. Thank you so much. Oh, thank you. That was Barry Hertz, the Globe's film and deputy arts editor. That's it for today. I'm Cheryl Sutherland. Our producers are Madeline White, Michal Stein, and Ali Graham. David Crosby edits the show.

Adrian Chung is our senior producer, and Angela Pichenza is our executive editor. Thanks so much for listening, and I'll talk to you soon.