The Decibel - Happy Enough: Why awe makes us happier

Episode Date: January 17, 2026

What happens when we stop rushing around and pause to take in the vastness of the world around us? In this episode of Happy Enough, we explore awe — the emotion that can make you feel surprisingly small, and, at the same time, happier. To break down the science behind awe and why it makes us feel better, Garvia speaks with Dacher Keltner, professor of psychology at UC Berkeley and the author of ‘Awe: The new science of everyday wonder and how it can transform your life’. They discuss how awe affects our bodies and simple ways to incorporate it into our lives. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey, it's Cheryl. It's the start of a new year, and for many people that means looking for ways to improve our lives. How can we be happier, healthier? How do we avoid burnout? The Globe and Mail's podcast, Happy Enough, explores those big questions. It digs into what it means to be truly happy and why that matters in our world today. Host Garvia Bailey talks to experts and regular folks, asking questions like, why does giving feel better than receiving? Can changes in your diet make you happier? And why creativity can be a mood booster. The new season of Happy Enough is coming out January 27th. You can listen to the entire first season now,

wherever you listen to podcasts. Take a listen to this episode of Happy Enough right now. Hope you enjoy it. Hey, how are you doing? I want you to do me a favor. When do you think back to a time when you were truly moved by something? Maybe it was a sunrise that paints the sky all manner of pink and orange and it just blows your mind. Maybe it's the color of changing leaves, a maple tree that is an unworldly color of red.

Maybe you've heard a powerful voice that holds a note for longer than seems humanly possible. These are just a few moments that might inspire. awe might leave you struck by the beauty of things, the endless possibilities of the universe. I'm Garvey Bailey, and this is Happy Enough, a Globe and Mail podcast on the pursuit of happiness and why it matters in these stressful, stressful times. Today, yeah, you've probably figured it out. We're talking about awe and its connection to happiness. Now, when I think of awe, the first thing that comes to mind are, you know, the bucket list of the wonders of the world, you know, Kilimanjaro and the pyramids. But I'm here to tell you that you don't need to buy a plane ticket to feel awe.

That feeling of marvel of reverence at the world around us can be found in the mundane. And it can make us feel better, even if it makes us realize just. how tiny and insignificant we actually are on this big old planet. Joining us today to discuss the science behind awe is Dacker Keltner. Dacker is a professor of psychology at UC Berkeley and the director of the Greater Good Science Center. It's also the author of Aw, the new science of everyday wonder and how it can transform your life. our conversation right after this. Dacker Keltner, welcome to Happy Enough.

Thank you so much for joining us. You published a book in 2023 called Aaw, which I'm so excited to discuss today. It sits beside me almost all the time these days. Let's start with a question that I'm sure you've heard of a lot. What is awe? Like, how would you characterize awe or define it? Yeah, you know, it's funny. That's actually a really hard question, and some of our best philosophers from Emmanuel Kant to Rachel Carson have thought about this.

A awe is an emotion. So it's a brief state that you feel. When you encounter things that, for the most part, are vast and beyond your frame of reference, big trees, big sounds in music, deep character and a courageous person, and that are mysterious. You don't understand them. You know, you're just like, how could a tree be 2,000 years old? So it's really our feeling that we have when we encounter vast mysteries. And then it's important for people to get a sense of it in their bodies. You know, we tear up, we get goosebumps. We may feel warmth in our chest, which is the vagus nerve that's activated that we study in my lab. So it's a very powerful bodily emotional response. I'm wondering about your interest in awe, how that sprung up.

I wrote this book in a really personal time when my brother had passed away, who was a companion in awe for me. And so I was reflecting a lot. And, you know, I trace my scientific interest in awe. I'm a lab scientist in many ways to my childhood. And I was, you know, I was lucky to be raised in an age where parents, my parents allowed me to really wander and feel wonder about art. My dad is a visual artist and, you know, literature.

My mom taught literature and paintings. And, you know, we were in a, I grew up in an era the late 60s in a place, Laurel Canyon, California, where there was just revolution and civil rights. And so it was just a period filled with awe. And I think I felt it as a child. And it's like, you know, there's so much that's full of amazement in life. And how can I study that scientifically? I wasn't good at art. I wasn't good at writing. And I was like, okay, I got these tools, you know. How do I get this emotion? And then thankfully, Garvia, you know, my field emotion science, there was no research on awe, you know, this just fundamental emotion in life. And so that got me going.

You know, it's one of those things that I feel like probably in the early stages of thinking about it. It's something that we just kind of take for granted as, this thing that just passes over us and we just keep walking through it as opposed to sitting in it. Yeah, you know, I mean, you hit on, you know, there were certain words that I kept coming back to writing this book, doing this science for 15 years. One is mystery, you know, just to be open to mystery. It's the core of awe in some ways. Albert Einstein, mystery is the fundamental emotion that gets art and science going. But, yeah, you know, we, the idea in our.

lives today, always checking our phones and over-scheduled and getting notifications. And we just don't sit in things. We don't pause. We don't let things come into us. And we did this study of what we call the Aw Walk, and that was basically it. It's like, go on your walk. Everybody's walking, you know, especially during COVID, historic rates of walking. And we just said, you know, go somewhere that is kind of has a childlike wonder for you or fascination and just be there, you know, and just open your eyes and look at small things and look at big things and explore and sit in it. And that simple mindset led our participants who were over the age of 75 to feel less bodily pain and less anxiety, right? And I just, another word that kept coming to me

in writing this book alongside mystery is like, pause. you know, be quiet, just be open. And it's true scientifically, and I think that it was true for me too, just to take in all these wonders around us just in a minute or two. It's such a personal thing, is, you know, the things that spark it. It's different for every individual. We're all moved by different things. But in your research, did you find any commonality? for sources of awe. What are the things that, you know, generally all of us feel awestruck by?

Yeah. Man, you're asking deep questions, Garvey. We're a deep show. You know, awe is fascinating. And I think it actually gives us a lot of hope for our really hard times right now. You know, for example, in the United States where I am, which is awe is both deeply personal and at the same time, when you understand other people's experiences of all, you realize how universal it is. So, for example, in talking about awe, I ask people like, tell me about a time when an experience of music changed your life, right? And you probably have one that's happened to you or several. And everyone mentions very personal things. It might be country and western or Sona Jobarthei,

the great African musician, really different, personal. And at the same time, that experience unites us. And so to your question, despite the very personal subjective qualities of the experience, around the world, people find awe in what I call these eight wonders, you know, spiritual experience, nature, the moral beauty of other people, their kindness, big ideas, visual patterns, music, the life cycle. People find, you know, just thinking about birth and growth and people passing away, is awe-inspiring. And then shared movement, collective effervescence. So if you go around the world, you will find, you know, be it Mexico or the UK or India or China, those things bring people awe. And they're nuanced and different in each culture. But yeah, there is this universal fount

of awe that we should be cultivating in our lives. I like the idea that you don't have to do much to experience it because nature is all around us. Yeah, like one of our categories is big ideas or epiphanies that bring us all. You know, and when I ask audiences, they're like, oh, I love dark matter, AI, or, you know, human evolution, whatever it may be. And that's tough, you know. But, yeah, there are some easy sources of awe that we should bring into our life regularly. And at the top of the list is nature.

And, you know, when we gathered these stories of all from 26 countries that I alluded to, it was sunsets and clouds and spring flowers, trees, trees are incredible, you know, mountains, hearing the rain, you know, just listening to the rain and sitting in that, like you said, you know, Garvia. So, and then the science of that is incredible. Our bodies are attuned to change when we relate to nature all the way down to our heart function or immune system. And so, yeah, that one is really easy. When I walk to school to work, I have a couple spots that I stop every time.

I touch this tree, you know, feel reverence for it. I listen to the stream, look at the light. There's always nature to behold. Even in tough places, there's a teacher in the Bronx where there's not a lot of nature in New York City. And she takes her students out to like the one patch of grass and tree that is in their neighborhood. painted and she says it has this wonderful effect upon them. So nature's a good one to rely on. Get out and garden. For sure. There was, there's a tree where I go to a cottage with, with family and it's, I call it perfect tree. It just is like the symmetry of it and the vastness of

it and the way that every year it's just solid and there and in its perfection. I was just like, So every, you know, I walk past it, I'm always like, hey, perfect tree, you're here again. Oh. You know, because it's just so beautiful to behold. Like you just, if a child was to paint a tree, it would be this tree. Perfection. Yeah. You know, and you get into the science of trees, which is a hot topic right now, Suzanne Samard and others. And they're, they're miracles, you know, the way they communicate and protect each other. So it's so simple to find awe. And I think we've lost sight of those, those. those very ready opportunities that you talk about. You touched on the way that physiologically it helps.

Can we get into that just a little bit more? Like, is it changing our brain? Like, are our brains changing as well as we take all of this in? Yeah. You know, I'm over in Berkeley and I look like a surfer, although I'm not a surfer. You got a great head of surfer hair. I got to tell you. I know.

It's tremendous. But here I was starting to study on, you know, and I teach a lot of judges and doctors, and, you know, I could see them kind of laugh, like, of course, you know, but why should we take this seriously? We should take it very seriously because of the physiological effects of awe. And what happened, you feel awe very deeply in your body. And what we know in terms of the neurophysiology is that if I'm listening to an awe-inspiring piece of music or I'm out near tree, that mean so much to me, the perfect tree you mentioned, or I'm dancing with people, you know, I'm moved by, I remember seeing Nelson Mandela when he came out of prison.

He went on this tour, and I saw him in Oakland, California with 50,000 people, and it would change my life. You know, my body was just alive. And what we know is, as you feel awe, it quiets down a part of the brain, the default mode network, which is where the nasty ego is active, right? So you're no longer is concerned with egoistic stuff. That then affects oxytocin release, and oxytocin helps you be open to other people. Then your vagus nerve is activated. A big bundle of nerves wandering through your organs and your heart and your lungs, slows down your heart, deepens your breathing, calms your body to be open to others. And then, you know, the goosebumps is a fascinating response that really in a cross-different species is about merging with others,

being united with others. You feel goosebumps, the electric rush up your skin when you're like at a football match or dancing to music. You're like, these are my people, right? That's the goosebumps. And then, you know, what really caught the medical field's attention is awe reduces inflammation. Inflammation is part of the immune system. When it heats up the body to attack.

pathogens in your body. It's very bad for you if it's chronically active when you're always inflamed and awe cools that down. So that profile is very, very good news for your body and should be a reason we cultivate it. Okay, I'm going to get you to pump the brakes just one minute because inflammation is something that everyone is talking about these days. And you're telling me that awe can cool it down. Can you tell me about what is going on in our bodies? that would allow awe to calm inflammation. There's the fight or flight parts of your body, you know, blood pressure and hearts pounding, muscle tension,

digestion is affected, et cetera. The pattern of physiology associated with awe is the opposite of it, right? So the vagal reaction in your heart, that nerve affects your heart and your breathing, and it slows your heart. It slows your breathing. And it gives you this warm feeling in your heart. chest, which people report with awe. The tears are fascinating. People often tear up, you know, you see an incredible piece of music and you're crying, or you see, you know, it's so profound,

like you see a courageous child facing cancer, moral beauty, and you just start crying, you know, and that response is also sort of a connect, calm, and be kind part of the nervous system. So it's, it is the bodily response of awe points to how we have evolved these sets of emotions that help us be human, help us connect, help us form community, which is fundamental to who we are. I find this also fascinating. And I wonder about in your research, once you lay them out like this, it's like, oh, okay, that makes sense. Are you ever surprised by something in your research where he's just like, what, huh? I want to know about what surprises you about this topic.

Yeah. You know, one was this. So there are a few, and they're really helpful for our relationship to awe, which I hope people are cultivating more and more. One was what I call everyday awe in the book, you know. And when you ask people, what's an experience of awe? Very often they'll say something like, oh, I was, I went on this once in a lifetime vacation, and I was at the barrier reef and snorkeling.

But in actuality, our research finds in 10 different countries, people are feeling awe two to three times a week, right? They're walking along and then, you know, the light on the fall leaves and a leaf falls and floats through the air. And they're just like, wow, look at the cycle, right? Fall. So that was the first surprise for me is everyday awe. You know, just it's around us, like you said, Garvey.

We just have to pause, open our eyes, think, get into a mindset of awe, and there it is. And the other one that really struck me, when we gather these stories of awe from 26 countries, you know, we just let people write stories of awe. You know, we didn't have any bias to the study or any preconception. And the most common form of awe, think about this today with, you know, the ugliness of online stuff, is just the moral beauty of other people. And people are kind, they're courageous. You know, they face racism or misogyny with strength and resolve, you know. They are fair. They humble.

And just seeing those occurrences changes people's lives. So that really caught me off guard. Like, it's not spirituality. It's not nature per se. It's other people around us. And I took heart in that. I love that so much. because it means that it's kind of like a limitless well.

I just find that just so, so fascinating. This podcast is about happiness. Where does off it into the happiness equation for us as we work towards feeling better? You know, Garvey, I mean, I've been teaching happiness audiences all over the place in Berkeley undergrads for 30 years, you know, and it's like practice some gratitude, do some breathing, find some loving kindness.

Those are some pretty tried and true approaches. And awe is up there. And what I like about awe as a practice for happiness is just like you said, we're good at it, right? We've just forgotten that. So we find so much meaning in music. And so with awe, you know, just listen to a piece of music that really moves you, just once a week and take those three minutes and listen to it.

We find awe in nature. Just get outside. We find awe in a certain approach to other people and just thinking about their kindness or their courage. And those stories that are in films and novels and, you know, things you might stream. So, as you know, like, I wrote this book when I lost my younger brother Rolf. He was, in some sense, one of my, you know, a deepest companion in life. And it blew me off the map. I was anxious and depressed and wasn't sleeping. I was like, I got to practice all.

And so, like, every day I walk, I take in some nature. You know, I always try to look for some moral beauty around me, which there usually is. I listen to music differently. I, you know, try to get out more and move with other people. And it's, we're good at this. Culture has taken us away from it. The digital technologies are not good at all. And so it's easy to rediscover. And it's going to be, it's rising really fast in terms of like the canon of practices for happiness.

Yeah. You know, you mentioned earlier that awe can make people feel insignificant. You talked about the ego being quieted. And this idea that in sort of the grander scheme of things, we're just, we're just a spec. We're very small. small. Why do you think that this sense of insignificance will make us happier? Because it feels counterintuitive that we should be bigger and, you know, and puff out our chest more and take up more space. But you're saying, be smaller. Yeah. Yeah. We did a lot of hard work on that. And we call it the small self of awe. And, you know, and it's interesting, Garvia, you know, so many of the great wisdom traditions are like put aside the ego, you know, the Buddhist traditions and Taoism and, you know, the Abrahamic traditions of, you know, selfless acts and so forth. And I believe that, and I think that the clue to the answer comes from a quote of an awe-inspiring person

of moral beauty who just passed away, Jane Goodall. And she felt like Darwin did. A lot of our social mammal relatives feel awe. And she, and spirituality. she said, which is really just being amazed at things outside of yourself. And so as your ego diminishes and you get small, and it's not painful when you're feeling awe, your mind opens up to all the wonders around you. And there may be skeptics out there, fair enough. I've spent a lot of time working with prisoners in American prisons. Those are horrifying places.

They find awe inside, you know, in human. connection and reading and the like, it's always around us. And so as the self diminishes, we become, like Jane Goodall said, amazed at what's around us. And that makes us happy. Man, we've discussed some big ideas today. We like on the show to end with some practical advice. If you were to give a small exercise or action to anyone in finding the awe in their own lives, what would you tell them to do? What should we do tomorrow morning? Or as soon as they finished listening to us, chat. Yeah. You know, I thought hard about that because, you know, we are in a mental health crisis and their bodily crises, inflammation. You know, and so for me,

it is pause, like you said, and sit in some form of beauty in nature once a week or once a day if you want. You know, it might be a sunset or the clouds or listening to the rain, a garden that you like. Just do that. Just sit, breathe, see what's vast and wonderful around you. I really recommend people listen to music with intention. You know, there's some data that suggests people might listen to music two to three hours a day, right? So it's there, but just like, okay, I'm going to pick a song that really speaks to my soul and appreciate that. And then, you know, I always tell people like to build all into like the regular walking. A lot, you know, a high proportion of people have a regular walk.

And so as you do that, go look for something that's mysterious and wonderful and see how that feels. You're the best doctor. Thank you, God. Yeah. I'm sure that where you are, you have a lot of perfect trees. So when I look at my perfect tree, I will think about your. perfect tree as well. Excellent.

We are joined. We are joined. Thanks for being here today. Thank you, Garvia. Great questions. Thanks again to Dr. Dackert Keltner for joining us. Just a little while ago, I was in the car with my mom, and it was just around dusk. And right in front of us was a swarm of starlings.

I mean, thousands of them. They were moving as one and painting the sun. sky in swoops and swirls. It was spectacular. And I was speechless. I did manage to keep the car on the road and get us home safe. But since then, I've been able to access that tingly feeling I felt, seeing something so deeply awe-inspiring, even if it was just for a few seconds. I smile every time I think about it. Just like that, somehow, this is the wrap on our second season of Happy Enough. Our show is produced by Kyle Fulton and Emily Jackson. Our executive producer is Kieran Rana. If you enjoyed this season, please follow us wherever you listen to

podcasts so you won't miss an episode. I don't want you to miss an episode. So just follow us and go back to the episodes you loved and leave a comment, whatever it is. We are going to be back for a third season in the new year, which is very exciting. But until then, I hope you all take the time to look at the trees, to let music move you, to feel awed by the simple moments of life. I'm Garvey Bailey. Thanks so much for listening.