The Decibel - In conversation with Ukraine’s First Lady

Episode Date: September 9, 2024

A new phase in the war in Ukraine began when Ukrainian forces took Russian territory in August. A month later, the Russians fired back, dealing Ukraine one of its deadliest days after missiles struck a military academy on September 3. The renewed intensity has led to more calls for Western help. And one of the main advocates on this cause has been Ukrainian First Lady Olena Zelenska. The Globe and  Mail’s Janice Dickson spoke with Ms. Zelenska in Kyiv this summer. She shares highlights from that interview. Questions? Comments? Ideas? Email us at [e-mail]

About a month ago, Ukrainian troops invaded Russian territory. Ukrainian state TV on Wednesday broadcast what it said was the moment when Kiev's soldiers pulled down the Russian flag in the town of Sudja in Russia's Kursk region. This was the first foreign incursion into Russia since the end of the Second World War. And then last week, Russia responded in a barrage of missiles and drone attacks. They hit a military training facility in the town of Poltava, which is fairly far from the front lines. That attack killed over 50 people, making it one of the deadliest days in the war. Then Russia sent drones to Lviv, a city near the Polish border. As the military strategy shifts, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky also shifted his political strategy by overhauling his cabinet.

He told the public that, quote, we need new energy today. And these steps are related only to the strengthening of our state in different directions. International policy and diplomacy is not an exception. But one advocate who isn't going anywhere is Ukrainian First Lady Olena Zelenska. Earlier this summer, Globe International Affairs reporter Janice Dixon sat down for an interview with Ms. Zelenska in Kyiv. Today, we talk to Janice about what the First Lady would like the West to know about the war in Ukraine. I'm Maina Karaman-Wilms, and this is The Decibel from The Globe and Mail. Janice, thanks so much for being here. Thanks for having me. So before we get into, I guess, the details of what you and Olena Zelenska actually spoke about,

I just kind of want to know, like, how did this happen? How did you end up interviewing Ukraine's first lady? So I wanted to speak with Olena Zelenska because as a first lady of a country at war, she's really taken on a remarkable role. And I had read that she previously didn't like public speaking. I knew that she had written comedy scripts in the past. And now after Russia launched its full-scale invasion in 2022, she has really become a mainstay on the world stage. And I wanted to speak with her and hear her perspectives, hear about how her role has changed and what she thinks about the current situation and the U.S. election. And then once you got there, like, can you just kind of set the scene? What was being there and interviewing her like? Sure. So the interview took place at the presidential office, which is a big building in central Kiev. It's full of sandbags, fortified, lots of security. We, you know, were stopped at the gates. We brought all of of our gear in we had a whole team with us

Katya my colleague in Ukraine and I we had our simultaneous translator a technician that accompanied him and a cameraman so we really did have a full crew going through these security steps outside and then inside being led through additional security, sort of, you know, those big airport style scanners through the halls of this building that, you know, was really fascinating. And then onward to this room, which was, you know, sort of a nondescript conference room, very dark. They took our cell phones. And so for a few hours, we're just setting up. And I mean, it's strange when you're just sort of waiting to have an interview like this, and you can't even look up to see what's happening in the moment. We're used to being

glued to our phones, but in particular, in Ukraine, where you're just following developments constantly. As you mentioned, there was a simultaneous translator. So we are going to hear him in some of those clips as we play those clips from the interview. Can I just ask, what was the mood like when you were there? It did feel rather intense, but Miss Zelenska herself is very warm. She's very human. She was very welcoming, and it was great speaking with her. Vitayu, so nice to meet you. Nice to, you know, was very welcoming and it was great speaking with her.

So nice to meet you. My name is Janice Dixon and I'm a reporter with the Globe and Mail. It's Canada's national newspaper. What is, I guess, her job these days, Janice? Like, what is Ms. Zelenska's role in the war? She has become a huge ambassador for Ukraine. She noted that she's not a professional diplomat, but on the world stage, she's been, you know, she's delivered an address before Congress, which was, I think, pretty rare for a spouse of a world leader. Good morning. Dear members of the U.S. Congress, ladies and gentlemen, I am grateful for the opportunity to be here and address the Congress of Ukraine. She's since then made many trips around the world urging countries to support Ukraine.

She also runs a foundation that supports humanitarian work, children's camps with psychological counselors there, humanitarian aid and social projects, a mental health initiative. She has a lot of work on her plate. Yeah. And I think you use the term soft force diplomacy earlier when you were reporting on this to describe her work. Can you describe what that means that's actually phrase that she used to describe what what she does but what first ladies and first gentlemen do in general actually our role is about soft force diplomacy. So many directions in it. Sports, diplomacy, cultural diplomacy,

humanitarian dimensions. So Miss Zelenska launched an initiative a couple of years ago, even before the full-scale invasion, which was a summit that brought together First Ladies and First Gentlemen from around the world to Ky Kiev to discuss global issues. And so I know her office was preparing for the next one, which is coming up in a week or so. But all of these summits are meant to discuss

global issues and they have themes. So this topic, for instance, is child security. They'll also have experts there. And this is one initiative that I know she's really championed and she's really encouraged other first ladies and gentlemen to have these discussions you mentioned she's spoken at the U.S. Congress before. And obviously, the U.S. is one of Ukraine's biggest allies, right? Most importantly, supplying Ukraine with weapons and equipment in the war. And this upcoming election in the U.S. could really drastically change the relationship between these two countries. So, Janice, did Ms. Zelenska say anything about this to you? I began our interview by asking her about the U.S. election and if Ukraine is preparing in the event that politicians with isolationist views are successful. I want to start by asking you about the U.S. election. There's a lot of news happening there right now. What would you say to US politicians like JD Vance, who would like the US to stop funding Ukraine's fight against the Russian invasion? The whole world is following the political processes developing in the US

and the elections will have an impact for the whole democratic world. You know, Donald Trump has said that he would end the war in Ukraine in one day, but it's not clear how he would do that. And his running mate, J.D. Vance, has made it clear he does not want the US to continue supporting Ukraine, providing funding to Ukraine. And, you know, she didn't comment specifically on the U.S. election. She said that everyone is following it, including Ukrainians, that, you know, analysts and diplomats are following every word that politicians are saying, trying to decipher what it means, what could happen, but that she's not going to join them

because she's not a diplomat, she's not a political analyst. But she did say that she hopes that those who do not want to continue supporting Ukraine will change their mind. We cannot just stop fighting, stop defending us, our country, our kids. So just hopes for the common sense to prevail, for democracy to win. And the U.S. actually held up aid for Ukraine in the spring, right? Can you, I guess, just remind us what that was about and the effect it actually had on Ukraine?

That's right. In fact, I think this is why the question about Ukraine preparing in the event of a Trump outcome is so crucial, because I don't think the outcome of the U.S. election will be felt any stronger than in Ukraine, because they had a preview of what happened when aid was held up by Congress. It was finally approved in April, but it was withheld for months and it allowed Russian troops to advance. support for Ukraine, words of condemnation following these horrifying attacks are appreciated. But what Ukraine needs the most is military support. We expect more proactive actions, like sanctions for the support of Ukraine in order for us to prove to them on the battlefield that they won't be able to overcome us. Given that Ms. Zelenska has done outreach to other first ladies in the past, which we talked about just a few minutes ago, has she spoken to Melania Trump, who could be the U.S. first lady again? Well, I asked if she had spoken or would speak with Melania Trump, because I was curious if that may be a path where she would use the soft diplomacy that she spoke of. And I

wondered, you know, would she speak with her about children, about her work, try to offer her perspective on the war and share that with Melania. And Miss Olenska said that she would speak with anyone. Actually, as the First Lady of Ukraine, I am talking to everyone willing to hear me. I always hoped I will be heard. So if there is an opportunity for us to communicate, I definitely will use it.

She kept her response on that pretty short. We'll be back in a moment. So we've touched on some of the diplomacy-like work that Ms. Zelenska has been doing abroad. But Janice, you mentioned she also does a lot of work inside Ukraine, specifically with children. So can we talk more about that? Yeah, for sure. We spoke briefly about her foundation that supports children, mental health initiatives, and humanitarian aid.

It's actually a pretty long list of work that she does inside the country. She talked about her foundation support of summer camps for children who have suffered enormously as a result of the war. She mentioned children who have lived under Russian occupation, children who have lost their parents. And so her organization provides funding to summer camps where children can go and spend some time, but also spend time with psychologists and counselors. This type of assistance may be needed by some 80% of the Ukrainians living under constant stress these days. You know, many people are still not seeking help. She wants people to know that there's no shame in it and that people are also ready to help.

So how is she getting people to talk about mental health then? So she launched this How Are You campaign initiative to encourage people to check in on themselves. In fact, on my last trip there in July, after an air raid alarm, I think it was 2 a.m., a message popped up on my phone that said, how are you? Like the air raid alert is over. How are you? And I remember thinking it's a little bit strange to see that message. It's 2 a.m. So I think that there is

this big push for people to think about how they're doing and to seek help. And that's something that's really important for her. Yeah. And you actually, I think the first question you asked her, right, was how are you questioned to kind of start that conversation? Yeah, that's right. I mean, it's also, it's an interesting question because for us it's small talk and it's a way to open a conversation and she had a pretty long response to that. Thank you for the question. A question from the friend. When you care after someone, you always ask how she or he is doing. So thanks for the question. She said, how are you? It's a question from a friend. And, you know, she went on to talk about her work.

And it wasn't just, you know, I'm OK, you. It's a complicated question for people that live with war every day. And when you were in Ukraine this summer, Janice, I think you were actually there when Ukraine's largest children's hospital was struck in a Russian attack as well, right? Can you tell me about that? That's right. I was actually arriving to Kiev that morning. I had taken the train, the overnight train from Warsaw. And as I was approaching the city, I was getting texts from my colleagues and they were concerned, like, is the train moving? Whereabouts are you? Because

there's a massive Russian missile attack happening right now. And so as the train got closer to Kiev, I saw smoke from where there had been an attack on the largest children's hospital. And just days following the attack, a doctor gave us a tour of the hospital. She showed us where there was blood smeared on the walls from where her colleague was hit. Luckily, she was away from windows at the time of the attack. And just for sort of visualizing this, I was across from the building that was struck. That was the large hospital building, but the damage in the main building was enormous. There were hallways just destroyed and, you know, ceilings collapsed. And then in the basement, there was a mother and her son waiting to see a doctor. And then, you know, I spoke with other doctors who were just trying to continue their work, which is just incredible. And we also spoke with parents and children who were in the building that had actually been struck, and he survived. He was there for dialysis treatment, and we went to a hospital

where those children had been moved away from the campus that was hit. And yeah, it was really devastating. It's really shocking to see an attack on a children's hospital that treats the sickest children in Ukraine and to see the children themselves, the fact that they were, you know, the target or ended up being the target of such attack is really hard to contemplate. Wow. So children are a big focus of Ms. Zelenska's work inside Ukraine as well. I believe she also focuses a lot

on women too, right? Well, we spoke about women and we talked about the impact of the war on women. First, we discussed the horrifying experiences that women have had under areas of Russian occupation. I spoke with a couple of women last fall and reported on women that were raped by Russian soldiers under occupation. And Miss Olenska raised that men and children have also been victims of these attacks. And she raised how challenging it is to come forward and talk about this. But she also spoke at length about how the war affects women and issues that aren't talked about very often. And that's the fact that their husbands, for the most part, are all fighting. When you have your husband fighting the front line, you have not simply took care after your kids, maybe your and his parents, but you will have to work more because you are the only provider for the family.

So I would say that maybe it's not about financial aspects of it, but still, surely, women have to do more. And she credited women for keeping the economy afloat in Ukraine. She also talked about the challenge of wounded soldiers returning home to their partners, and then they become the caretaker for them. That way we see that the amount of unpaid labor, unpaid time grows for women. I thought she raised a lot of important points on these wide-ranging impacts that women feel in Ukraine.

So Janice, the war is approaching its 1000th day impacts that women feel in Ukraine. So, Janice, the war is approaching its 1,000th day. That'll be in November. And a few months later, at the end of February, it'll enter its third year. Did Ms. Zelenska talk to you about how she sees this war ending? She said that Ukrainians want the war to end on their terms. The justice should be served. We had never attacked anyone. We had never plotted against anyone.

We had no ever evil things. So because of that, we are not ready to lose anything. Ukraine has made it clear they want their internationally recognized borders restored. They want to join the EU. They want to internationally recognized borders restored. They want to join the EU. They want to join NATO. And so at this state, it seems that Ukraine and Russia are quite far apart from that happening. So it's, you know, we'll have to wait and see how things unfold. comment that Ms. Zelenska made referring to support from Canada in particular is that she wants partners to view Ukraine's eventual victory as a joint victory because of the support that Ukraine has received. Very lastly here, Janice, before I let you go, I mean, you spent a

fair bit of time with her talking to her about all of these things. What would you say was her overall message in your conversation? Her message throughout and certainly at the end of our conversation was pleading with people not to get tired of Ukraine. I plead with you not to be tired of us. It's really a matter of how strong we will be able to remain, we will be able to continue, because, you know, it affects our spirits. It affects our morale inside the country.

It's very important to know that you have the eyes of the world on you. So she urged the world to not grow tired of Ukraine, not to grow tired of hearing about it, and to continue its support because the war is not over yet. Janice, thank you so much for your reporting and for being here today. Thank you for having me. That's it for today. I'm Mainika Raman-Wilms. This episode was edited and mixed by Kevin Sexton.

Our producers are Madeline White, Rachel Levy-McLaughlin, Michal Stein, and Allie Graham. David Crosby edits the show. Adrian Chung is our senior producer, and Matt Frainer is our managing editor. Thanks so much for listening, and I'll talk to you soon.