The Decibel - Murray Sinclair, as remembered by his friend Tanya Talaga

Episode Date: November 11, 2024

Murray Sinclair died last week at the age of 73. As a trail-blazing judge, senator and chair of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, he spent his life revealing the truth about Canada’s relationship with Indigenous people.Globe columnist Tanya Talaga was a friend of Sinclair’s, and often turned to him for guidance and mentorship. She joins us to reflect on his legacy and the work that’s still to be done.Questions? Comments? Ideas? E-mail us at [e-mail]

Many generations of children, including you and your parents, have been raised to think about things in a different way, in the wrong way, in a way that is negative when it comes to Aboriginal people. And we need to change that. It was the educational system that has contributed to this problem in this country. And it's the educational system, we believe, that's going to help us to get away from this. Murray Sinclair, Anishinaabe lawyer, judge, senator, and chief commissioner of Canada's Truth and Reconciliation Commission, died last week. He was 73. A national ceremony was held in his honor this weekend.

He was the first, he was the first Indigenous person of almost every single room in a time in which Indigenous peoples were not welcome in courtrooms, in boardrooms, classrooms. That meant he spent a lot of time explaining, teaching, listening, and walking alongside a country that didn't always want to hear what he had to say. But eventually, much of that country came to listen, to learn, and to take action with him. Sinclair grew up in Manitoba. His grandmother wanted him to become a priest, but he went to law school instead. In 1988, Murray Sinclair became the first Indigenous judge in Manitoba's history, and the second in Canada.

His work included being co-commissioner of the Historic Inquiry into how the justice system mistreated indigenous people in Manitoba, as well as an inquiry into the death of 12 infants at a Winnipeg hospital. Sinclair's role as the chair of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission led him to hear countless stories from residential school survivors. Powers was inevitably going to be a journey of discovery that would be filled with challenge, with pain, with horror, tinged with sadness and despair, but also, perhaps surprisingly to those who were there, accompanied by laughter, by joy, by love and by courage.

That is because ultimately the story of the truth of residential schools in this country is a story about the resilience of children. It is a story about surviving. Sinclair was appointed to Canada's Senate in 2016 and served as a senator for five years. This fall, he released a memoir titled Who We Are? Four Questions for a Life and a Nation. Globe columnist Tanya Talaga knew Murray Sinclair and often turned to him for guidance. Tanya is an Anishinaabe journalist and the author of three books. Today, she'll talk about the Murray Sinclair she knew and the legacy he leaves behind. I'm Maina Karaman-Wilms, and this is The Decibel from The Globe and Mail.

Tanya, thank you so much for joining us. My condolences for the loss of your friend. Well, thank you very much. Tanya, can you tell me about the first time you met Murray Sinclair? The first time I met Murray was actually in downtown Toronto. I was called to be a witness at his that came into Thunder Bay from their Anishinaabe Asking Nation communities in order to go to high school. And these seven students died. And their deaths were not properly investigated by the Thunder Bay police and police boards, police of police. Murray was appointed to look into what had happened. And he had called me to be a witness. And I was so nervous. And I was also so

looking forward to meeting the great man, being in his presence, and actually being able to meet him face to face. I never met him face to face before. And so I remember going to the office and walking in and being so nervous. And then he extended his hand out and he had this big smile on his face. He was so happy to meet me. And I held his hand and I just cried. You know, it was just a swell of emotion that came up because I was thinking about about my family, the women in my family, the children in my up because I was thinking about, about my family, the women in my family, the children in my family. I was thinking about what my family had been through and what every single First Nations family had been through. The families of the Seven Fallen Feathers, you know, it's all linked back to the laws of colonial oppression and

Indian residential school. And we're still seeing it play out now. And it all sort of came bubbling to the surface and I cried. And he said to me, oh, you know, he kind of laughed because I was apologizing for crying. And he's like, don't worry, you know, I often get that reaction from people when I first meet them. And, you know, it was just typical Murray sense of humor and kindness and love. And it was, you know, as the saying goes, the start of a beautiful friendship. Well, like you say, you actually knew him as a friend. You know, most of us know him as a senator, a judge, TRC commissioner, but you developed a friendship with him. What was he like as a friend? He was very kind and generous with his words and with his teachings. You know,

at his heart, Murray was an educator himself. He was always generous with his time. And I would talk to him when I found myself in a jam. I would call him for help or I'd send him an email. And, you know, we were in different cities. But we also had a common, very good friend. That person was Lee Miracle, a great Stolo author. Lee and Murray were best friends. I know they were incredibly close. And she loved to get Murray to write poetry and

Murray loved poetry. I mean, so much so you'll see it in his book, Who We Are. It's lovely. It's an interesting fact, because I honestly, I don't think a lot of people know that side of him that he even wrote poetry. That's something maybe new for a lot of us. He wrote beautiful poems and it just shows the depth of him, right? He was quite a beautiful writer and his book, Who We Are, you could really hear that. You could hear his voice. Murray was a storyteller. This is a really broad question, Tanya, but what did you learn from him? I guess, is there anything specific that comes to mind when you think about what he taught you? He taught me many things, but he left me definitely with the feelings that

I need to keep on this path. I need to keep thinking. You know, when we would talk about whatever it was I was working on or whatever it was that I needed his help with, he would urge me to keep going, not to give up and not to stop thinking. He used to always say to me, he loved talking to me because he loved to find out what was going on inside of my mind. He was always fascinated with

how I was thinking about things and unrolling thought patterns. And you can see that in all our relations, my second book and my Massey lectures it's very much um shaped by what he taught me and also to the conversations that we had because I was kind of struggling with tying the whole book and manuscript together and it was Marie who really brought it together with his four questions that every Anishinaabe child, youth, person needs to ask themselves. And I really leaned on that. That's what he taught me the most, not to ignore my thoughts and to have faith in them and to keep pushing them and keep going. Can you tell me more about those four questions that you mentioned? What are those questions?

And I guess what was the significance of those questions for him? Who am I? Where do I come from? Where am I going? Where do I belong? You know, growing up, and he talks about this in his book, Who We Are. This is his memoir that was released just a couple months ago. Yeah, that's right.

Yeah. He talks a lot about the questions. And I could see in the book the formulation of where those questions came from. And that was when he was growing up in Selkirk and also the St. Peter's Reserve at the time. And how he was, how he felt racism for the very first time. How he really identified with the story, the ugly duckling. And if you don't know about that story,

I know you asked me about the four questions, but it's also tied into the story of the ugly duckling. Please tell me about this story. So the ugly duckling is about this, this little duckling that's born and the little duckling is teased relentlessly because the duckling looks differently than its other siblings. and the little duckling is teased relentlessly because the duckling looks differently than

its other siblings. And the mother is always telling the little duckling, no, you know, just continue on being who you are. You're fine. You're fine. You're not ugly. But the ugly duckling can't shake the feeling and, you know, looks at itself in the reflection of the water and sees this person and that's being teased or this little duckling that's being teased. And the ugly duckling can't really take it anymore. But then one day the ugly duckling grows up and sees a flock of swans and realizes that, hey, I'm not an ugly duckling. I'm just like those swans over there. I am beautiful. I am strong. And I am worthy. And I belong. And the story of the ugly duckling is really a story of belonging.

It's a story of figuring out who you are, where you come from, what your purpose is in life, and where do you belong. And Murray always talked about that story your purpose is in life, and where do you belong? And Murray always talked about that story, especially later in life. He used to love to tell that story to his grandchildren, especially his granddaughter, Sarah. And that story really, you know, is the essence of those four questions. And also, too, explains his earlier life of feeling shame, of being teased, of being called a quote-unquote dirty Indian when he was younger. And generations of our families felt that shame for a long time, right?

I mean, things are so much different now for our youth, but in the, well, 150 years of Canada, really the growth of Canada, our people felt so much shame because of the Indian residential school system, because of the Indian Act, because of Indian hospitals, because of colonial laws and oppression that made us feel less than, that made us feel not worthy. And then an education system that didn't teach our stories, didn't teach our truth, didn't teach Indian residential schools. So you didn't feel like you belonged anywhere. You felt like you were worthless.

So those four questions were so essential to who Murray was because he was trying to teach everyone else too, especially the generations that come before him, that yes, we belong. Yes, we are important. And yes, we have a future. We'll be right back. Of course, Marie Sinclair had a very accomplished life, and he's most known for being chair of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. Tanya, let's actually listen to some of his remarks during the delivery of that final TRC report. We have defined reconciliation in the TRC report as working towards the establishment of a respectful relationship between Indigenous and non-Indigenous people. But before we can have that, we have to have a means by which Indigenous children can gain their sense of self-respect. So, Tanya, what do you think about when you listen back to that, when you listen back to his voice?

It's lovely. I always love it to hear his voice. And I appreciate you playing that clip because that's exactly what he's talking about, what we just spoke of, right? Those four questions and overcoming that shame. And the TRC was meant to be a roadmap for the future. Those 94 calls to action, you know, he's talking about what we're leaving our grandchildren and their grandchildren. That is what he left us. That's what the commission left us with those 94 calls. It is a roadmap for the future, how we can repair the spirit of this country after the genocide that's happened here. That's what he's talking about. This is the way forward.

And he hopes that Canada adopts this way forward. Of course, in his role in the commission, a big part of his job was to hear stories, to listen, right, to residential school survivors. And a lot of that was very heavy. How did he handle the weight of those stories and that responsibility? Well, Murray is the only one that could really tell you or answer that question in a totally personal and fulsome way. But it's hard. It's heavy work. I mean, he had so many survivors contacting him, wanting to hold his hand, wanting to tell their stories. And he sat through the testimonies of thousands of people. And you know, the TRC listened to 7,000 survivors and witnesses, and he listened to many of those. These are survivors telling their stories of the most

personal, the most painful moments of their lives. And he took those stories on, stories of pain and trauma, abuse in every way, shape and form, stories of miscarriages of justice, of a lack of justice, of no justice, of murder, of death, you know, everything. And he listened. And he tried to bring relief from his quiet demeanor in his listening and his recording of what happened, trying to figure out the way forward. That takes a toll on your spirit, on your personal health, on your families. You don't do this work by yourself. I mean, you're absent from your families, from your children, from everything in your life.

It is a lot. It's a lot to take. And, of course, that weighs on your heart. I understand he actually originally declined that role of the chair of the TRC, but eventually he did take it on. So I don't know if there was, I guess he kind of knew the responsibility that he was headed into when he entered that. Absolutely. You know, he had just, he had gone through the inquiry in Winnipeg into the deaths of babies. And that inquiry had left a mark on him. He had the names of the babies on his desk. And he would often look at their names.

And he knew what taking on the TRC would be. He knew how he felt after taking on the care of those, those poor, we souls that did not make it and how he would have to steal himself again to do the TRC and what that would take. It's not an easy decision. Yeah. We touched on education a little bit earlier, Tanya, but let me ask you again about this, because this seems like an important point. You actually wrote in your tribute to Marie Sinclair in The Globe that he often told you, quote, education got us into this mess. It is going to get us out of it, end quote. What did he mean by that? I love that the quote is so simple and so true. He's talking about the fact that education got us into this mess.

That is Indian residential schools, the policies that made it illegal to not send your children to these schools. Parents had no choice. And these schools were not set up to give First Nations children a wonderful academic environment. On the contrary, right? These schools, by and large, were places of pain and death. Children died in these schools. I mean, how many schools do you know that are built with graveyards? So he's talking about a school system that tried to break us, tried to break our spirits and also assimilate us into broader Canadian society, how to be good British citizens. And then he said the other end of that, that education will deliver us too, right? Because that's the future. That is the now. That is the fact that curriculum,

education reform, teaching the truth about this country will deliver us, will help us see the way forward. Because this is a way to grow a new generation of Canadians that know the truth about what happened in this country. So we don't have another generation of lawyers and politicians and editors and police people and journalists, right, that didn't know the truth. You know, and the truth was kept purposely out of the curriculum, right? It's got to be put back in. So we know what we're talking about this in this country, so we can confront head on the true issues that we face.

Just in our last few minutes here, Tanya, off the top, I asked you about the first time that you talked to him. But I wonder, do you also remember the last time you and Marie Sinclair talked and what you talked about? The last time I spoke to Marie, I was finishing writing The Knowing, my latest book, which is very much built and formed by the work and the teachings of Marie Sinclair and the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. I had all volumes of the TRC beside me as I wrote The Knowing and I refer to it often. It's a damning and wonderful and horrific and well-written history, truth-telling of what happened to our people in this country under Indian residential schools. And I had been trying to get a hold of him for a while. I even had booked a trip to go

to Winnipeg to go see him. But then he told me not to come because his health was up and down for a while there. And then of course, he lost his beautiful wife, Catherine, too. So he was going through a number of challenges. And I remember I was trying to get a hold of him because he was a sounding board for me for writing All Our Relations. And I was also looking for that help with the knowing. And when he called me out of the blue, as I was finishing the knowing, he said to me, you know, I apologize, but I couldn't but I couldn't call you and talk to you about your book because he goes, I was really trying to finish my book. And it was a bit of a race against time because he knew that his time on this earth was limited.

And so we spoke for three hours. We just had this wonderful phone call. His voice was strong. He was the animated Murray that I knew. And he, of course, told me a joke. And then we talked about the importance of the work and of reaching Canadians with our work. And he said to me, you know, there are three different audiences for the work we do. There are the people that will deny and will say that this is not true. The haters, if you will. And he said that percentage of the population he knows is small, thankfully small. He believed that. He said, but they will never change their minds. And then he said the second audience that's out there are the allies, the people that understand and want to know the truth and are helping us to build a better future. And they are the converted and they are our helpers. But then he said there is like sort of the mushy middle of Canadians that don't really know what happened, want to learn more, but need something to hold on to, something to learn, something to read.

And he said that is why he did the TRC, to reach that mushy middle, to arm the reasonable, those who want to learn. Just lastly, Tanya, how can we, how can all of us, how can we honor Marie Sinclair's legacy now? All of the things that he talked about, really, you know, arming yourself by knowing the truth, reading our books, reading the work that we do, reading the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, the 94 Calls to Action. It sounds like a giant undertaking, but it's actually like a little tiny flip book that you can get through the National Center of Truth and Reconciliation. Or you can look up the 94 calls online. They're not that daunting. And he always used to say, if you can do anything, take one of those calls and apply them to your life. And the world,

our nation would will be a better place. And I hope every Canadian takes him up on that. Tanya, thank you so much for taking the time to be here and for sharing these stories with us today. Thank you. I'm very grateful of your interest. That's it for today. I'm Mainika Raman-Wellens. Kevin Sexton produced this episode.

Our producers are Madeline White, Michal Stein, and Ali Graham. I'm Mainika Raman-Wells. Kevin Sexton produced this episode. Our producers are Madeline White, Michal Stein, and Allie Graham. David Crosby edits the show. Adrienne Chung is our senior producer, and Matt Frainer is our managing editor. Thanks so much for listening, and I'll talk to you tomorrow.