The Decibel - Quebec targets out-of-province students with big tuition hikes

Episode Date: November 13, 2023

The reality of Quebec’s law to protect the French language is setting in, especially for the province’s three English language universities. Out-of-province students are facing a tuition hike that could see their fees go up from about $9,000 a year to $17,000… among the highest fees in the country.Joe Friesen, The Globe’s post-secondary education reporter, joins the podcast to explain what’s driving the province’s push and whether Anglophone schools students are headed for financial disaster.Questions? Comments? Ideas? Email us at [e-mail]

Last month, the Quebec government announced that tuition fees for Canadian students who come in from out of province will nearly double. This move would target English-speaking undergraduate and some graduate students, and would be among the highest domestic fees in Canada. It could spell financial devastation for the province's English universities. In response, last week, leaders from those schools met with the government to try to find a compromise. But so far, the government isn't backing down from the tuition hike. Joe Friesen is the Globe's post-secondary education reporter. He's here to explain why the Quebec government would make such a dramatic change and what that could mean for Quebec's universities and their students. I'm Mainika Raman-Wilms, and this is The Decibel from The Globe and Mail.

Joe, thanks so much for being here. Thank you for having me. Let's just start with the basics. What exactly is the tuition increase that we're talking about and who is going to be affected? So Quebec is proposing to raise tuition for out-of-province students at the English language universities from about $9,000 a year to $17,000 a year. So it's a pretty significant increase. Okay. And when we're talking about this increase,

like when is this going to come into play essentially? So this would come into effect one year at a time. So it won't be as though everybody who is already in a university will be subject to this. It would be for the incoming class of 2024 to begin with. And then within four years, its effects would be kind of fully in place. Okay. And so just to be clear, if you're at McGill, Concordia right now, you're not going to see an increase though because you're already there?

That's right. Yeah. The old rules will apply to you. But for the freshman class coming in next September, the idea is, although this hasn't been passed into law yet, that this would be the new rate of tuition. Okay. How does this compare to tuition that a Quebec student would pay in Quebec? Like what is the difference here? It would be a phenomenal difference if this were to go through because a Quebec student is paying somewhere in the region of about 3,000, I believe. And so out-of-province students are already paying a premium, but the premium they pay takes them up to about roughly the Canadian average for undergraduate tuition or slightly

above. This would raise it to twice the Canadian average. I think that's why there has been so much outcry over this is because it's a really big jump, you know, very quickly. It's not going in stages. It's going all the way to $17,000 in the first year. And that, of course, is going to be affecting students' decisions of whether to go to a university where they have to pay almost double as opposed to, you know, an Ontario or Manitoba university, for example. Yeah, it's, for the universities that are going to be affected by this, the thing that concerns them the most is that level of competitiveness for Canadian domestic students. The price is significantly higher to come to

Quebec. Now, some people might be willing to pay it, but I think their projections are saying that not anywhere near as many as they're going now would be willing to pay that price. So what is the rationale behind this, Joe? What does the Quebec government say is the reasoning of raising the tuition fees in this way for out-of-province students? So the Quebec government has offered two explanations. The first, and I think the is the reasoning of raising the tuition fees in this way for out-of-province students. So the Quebec government has offered two explanations. The first, and I think the most significant, is the desire to protect the French language in Montreal,

which they feel is under threat. And the second is to lower the subsidy or eliminate the subsidy that they're providing to students who have been raised in other provinces and come to Quebec because they say that subsidy is worth about $100 million a year, which the tuition fee that any person pays in a university doesn't actually match the price that it costs to provide the education. All provinces subsidize it to an extent for domestic students. So Quebec is essentially saying they're okay to do that for Quebec students, but for students from outside the province, they want them to pay the full freight. Okay, so you mentioned the defense of the French

language is a big part. There's also part of this where money would be redistributed to French universities. Can you tell us that part of this change? Yeah, and I think that it also plays an important role is that some of the French-speaking universities in Quebec are struggling financially, particularly in the University of Quebec system. So UCAM or UQTA or the other, you know, all various regional locations that the University of Quebec is located. And the desire to redistribute some of the income, I think, is perhaps understandable if the province doesn't want to step in with a lot more of its own funding for higher education. So the English language universities, particularly McGill and Concordia, are able to attract significant numbers of international students, which is a really lucrative line of business for universities these days. And so the international students, which are another aspect of this policy that's maybe not discussed as much, their tuition fees are going to be subject to a clawback as well.

And so some of that money is going to be redistributed within the Quebec university system. Before this policy, which is not written yet, so before this proposal, I should say, universities were allowed to keep a very large portion of what they bring in international tuition. This will put a cap on how much what they bring in in international tuition. This will put a cap on how much they can bring in per student. And the clawback will go to the province, which then redistributes it

around the university system. So will international students actually be paying anything more or is it just the redistribution that's different? Their fees could go up, perhaps, to compensate for this. But for them,

the difference will be in the culture of the student body that they come to. So if these projections come true, if McGill and Concordia stop attracting significant numbers of students from the rest of Canada, those institutions become different. And so for an international student, that might change the calculation. You know, is this the university that they will want to go to? Is it less attractive to them? That question of what signal Quebec is sending to the rest of the world with a policy like this comes into play. We touched on this a little bit,

but I guess let's lay it out here. Who stands to benefit from charging out-of-province students a higher tuition fee? I think the main beneficiary might politically be Francois Legault because I think this is a politically popular with his base. This is the premier of Quebec. This is the premier of Quebec.

You know, from a student perspective, it would be perhaps in the interest of some students at French language universities, because their tuition fees have been relatively low in Quebec. And for Quebec domestic students, I think it shows the government's commitment to keeping their fees relatively low. Do we have a sense of how many students actually usually come to English language universities in Quebec from outside the province? Well, it's in the thousands every year. About 30% of Bishop's population comes from outside Quebec. I think in McGill's case, it's about 23% or so for Canadians from outside Quebec. I think in McGill's case, it's about 23% or so for Canadians from outside Quebec.

And Concordia is around that range, I think. So it's a significant number. And for the universities who are affected, this does, I guess, hold a threat of, you know, a significant change in their culture, in their standing in the country and in the world. So they feel, I think, quite concerned about what this is going to mean for them. And we will definitely talk about that because that's an important part of it too. But

I want to go back to something you mentioned politically, this could benefit the premier Francois Legault. How does this policy fit in with other policies that his government has put in place when it comes to especially the French language in Quebec? Well, I think he has made defending the French language a big part of his own personal political brand. And French language politics in Quebec have long been sort of central to the national discussion in Quebec. So for Legault to be seen as defending the French language, I think, is politically good

for him. You know, just recently there was a by-election where the Parti Québécois, sort of his main rival on the nationalist side of the spectrum, did very well. And this policy seems to have followed shortly after. Those might not be coincidental. And particularly to identify the threat to the French language as being in Montreal, I think is significant too, because a lot of Legault's support comes from outside Montreal and to have a policy that affects primarily Montreal might not be politically bad for him either. Yeah. I think of too, of course, Bill 96, which recently came into effect in Quebec, that affects different parts of public life, right? Where you have to essentially have services in French. There are of course exceptions, but

it is really foregrounding French as kind of the dominant language here. Yeah, and I think there's a lot of political support for that in Quebec. And for students on the English side, I think there can be some discomfort with a policy like this that seems to disadvantage students

from the rest of Canada. But for Legault, I think it may not be unpopular. We'll be back in a moment. So it sounds like the English language universities are really the ones who are going to feel this. So what is at stake for them here, Joe? Like, what would this mean for McGill, Concordia, and Bishops? So for those three universities, the consequences are different in each case.

First, maybe the easiest to deal with would be bishops, which is in what they call an existential crisis, essentially. If this were to go through, their financial situation would be pretty dire. For McGill and Concordia, bigger universities with larger budgets and the ability ability to attract large numbers of international students they might be able to weather it but they're still projecting significant financial harm concordia was predicting about 60 million dollars in lost revenue within four years and mcgill i think would be the same if not higher and mcgill has said they would they would expect job losses in the range of 6 to 750 people and could affect programs that they offer. They might have to cut some programs. Sports teams, they talked about suspending at McGill.

So it's a wide range of impacts on a very concrete financial level and also the cultural level because these universities have had connections with Ontario or with the rest of the country for generations. And so there's a real sense that this is a shift in what these universities will be, and that's tough for them to face. And so how have these universities responded? So they've responded with arguments, basically saying that this is not good for Quebec economically. It's not good for the province's image around the world because it doesn't project a sense of openness and a willingness to attract talent. And they've also responded by accepting some of the premier's arguments. They've made what they described as a historic pitch to the premier where they said,

we recognize that the French language is under threat in Montreal, and we want to be part of the solution. As institutions that offer teaching and learning, what they committed to do was to provide a lot more French language programs for their students, to ensure nearly half of the students that came out with degrees from their schools had a very high level of fluency in French, and to send their students into the regions of Quebec outside Montreal for work opportunities, internships, et cetera, that might help them better integrate into Quebec society and be more willing to stay in the long term, which I think is another thing that Legault has said is a weakness of the English institutions is that they don't create enough graduates who want to stay in Quebec long term.

And Bishops is in a slightly different situation because McGill and Concordia, of course, are in Montreal, where there is a lot of English spoken. But Bishops is in the eastern townships, right, close to Sherbrooke. So how does that make its situation different? Yeah, Bishops is in a bit of a tough situation because they're asking, hey, why us? In the eastern townships, it's the French language that is in the ascendancy and the English language that's in decline. So they're wondering why they're getting caught up in this sweep of the broad brush. And Legault actually has listened to that argument and has said, you know, he is specifically willing to make some alterations to this policy that recognize

bishops as different situation. We talked about the university leadership proposing, you know, to send students outside of Montreal for work opportunities and internships. Has that, I guess, alleviated or changed the government's position at all? The government seems to be listening. So when I asked the university leaders who were in the meeting with Legault, they had an hour with him and they said he seemed to be taking a lot of notes. He was paying careful attention and he thought the proposal that they made was interesting, but it's not clear yet how he's going to respond. And we haven't heard yet anything formal. Okay. Part of the rationale of raising tuition, as we've talked about, is that the province would redistribute some of the money to French

language universities. So I guess I'm wondering how have the French language universities responded to all of this? For the French language universities, it's an interesting position because, as I was mentioning earlier, there's something of a signal that goes with a policy like this that a number of the leaders of the University of Montreal, University of Laval, and others in an open letter they published in La Presse, drew attention to the fact that this may not be good for Quebec's long-term interests to have a differentiated policy like this. Although some of that money potentially would be redistributed to them, there's a question about how big the pie would be. If you're taking away significant numbers of students who are paying higher fees, it may not be that you're redistributing very much in the end after all. You're just getting less tuition overall, so there's less to go around. That could be the case.

I suspect the big universities will compensate by bringing in more international students. And so there may still be some financial reasons for the French speaking universities to see this as advantageous to them. But for the most part, the university leaders have said that it's not good for any university and for the sector as a whole to have a policy that weakens two or three universities in a significant way like this. The leaders of the University of Quebec system did also publish a letter in which they said it is fair that there be some redistribution of this income. So, you know, and they have an interest in seeing that take place.

The university is in some financial difficulties. So, Joe, we've talked a lot about how the universities would be impacted, but a couple of times you've kind of mentioned broader economic impacts, too. So I want to ask you about that, because I'm thinking about restaurants in Montreal. If you've got a lot of students that are coming in, that, you know, increases people going to those restaurants or people renting apartments. So I guess what kind of broader economic impacts could a city like Montreal see from all of this? Yeah. Sometimes when you're in Montreal, apartments. So I guess what kind of broader economic impacts could a city like Montreal see from all of this? Yeah, sometimes when you're in Montreal, it can seem like everywhere you go,

there's English speaking students. And maybe that's part of what's informing this policy from the Quebec government. So we need to keep French and we have to be careful to make sure that in the future, Montreal and Quebec will stay French. So it would obviously have an impact on the housing market, on things like entertainment, recreation. Definitely, there's millions of dollars. Yeah. I also think about the other things that students could bring to the province, right? And how would this affect long-term innovation and things in Quebec? Yeah, that's the concern that the university leaders have really pointed to is that there's a kind of intangible dynamism and things like innovation that might suffer as a result of a policy like this. If you're not seeking the best talent, if you're not seeking the people

who are going to be behind the technologies of the next century, you may lose out economically. That's a complicated question. And Quebec's language politics have always played a role in determining who comes to Quebec. And sometimes it's been a bit of a challenge to attract people for those reasons. So the Quebec government is going to probably have to weigh that question in the next few months as it decides

whether it wants to go all the way with the proposal that it has suggested so far or whether it's going to tweak it in some way. And I think this might relate to the question here I want to ask before you go about, I guess, the role of English language universities in Quebec. I mean, how might these changes really affect the role of those universities and the place it gives Quebec within the rest of Canada? The English language universities have played a really significant role, I think, in tying the country together in some ways. You know, the language politics in Canada have always been complicated

and Quebec's relationship with the rest of Canada, I think, really benefits from having had students who have gone there, lived there for a few years and gotten to understand Quebec society a little better and then gone on to other roles in the country. I mean, if you look at the number of McGill graduates in cabinet, for example, there's a lot of people there who have ties to the university and to the province

and who are now serving in sort of a broader role in the federal government from the prime minister himself to the justice minister to a number of other cabinet ministers. These are people who I think have benefited from having lived in institutions that are both of Quebec and also I think that see a strong connection to the rest of the country. And that's really beneficial. Those ties have

become frayed at different points in our history. And in the years since the referendum of 95, it seems as though things have gotten better on the whole. I think the ties have been stronger in more recent years. So it doesn't bode well, I don't think, for those kinds of connections and the links between Quebec and the rest of Canada. If the students who had been going there in the past aren't able to go there in the future. Joe, thank you so much for taking the time to walk us through this today. Thanks very much for having me. That's it for today. I'm Mainika Raman-Wilms. Michal Stein produced this episode. Our producers

are Madeline White, Cheryl Sutherland, and Rachel Levy-McLaughlin. David Crosby edits the show. Adrian Chung is our senior producer. And Angela Pachenza is our executive editor. Thanks so much for listening, and I'll talk to you tomorrow.