The Decibel - Rupi Kaur wants you to start writing

Episode Date: November 18, 2022

Rupi Kaur is one of the most famous poets in the world. When she was just 21, she self-published her first collection of poetry, Milk and Honey. She’s written two more collections since, and her books have sold over 11 million copies.Rupi is on the show to talk about how it all started, managing mental health in the pandemic and why she thinks other people should start writing.Questions? Comments? Ideas? Email us at [e-mail]

Hi, I'm Mainika Raman-Welms, and you're listening to The Decibel. Most poets don't get to go on a world tour. Unless, of course, you're Rupi Kaur. The 30-year-old has sold more than 11 million copies of her books, all starting with a self-published collection called Milk and Honey. The Canadian leg of Rupi's world tour starts on Sunday. And in fact, Rupi grew up just outside of Toronto, after moving here from India as a kid. Rupi has a new book out, called Healing Through Words, made up of writing exercises designed to help you work through your own emotions.

And so I decided to put this book out because I know that so many people across the world, they feel so seen through my words, but now I think it's time for them to feel seen through their own words. Today, I talk to Ruby Kaur about mental health, stage fright, and how she deals with hecklers. This is The Decibel from The Globe and Mail. Ruby, it's so great to chat with you. Thank you so much for joining me. Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to chat about, I mean, all the things we're going to talk about.

I'm really excited too. You know, I've been reading your poetry for years, and it's really exciting to actually get the chance to talk to you about it. I want to ask you about the start, Ruby, when your career really began to take off. You'd published, self-published your first book of poetry, Milk and Honey. I wonder, can you pinpoint the moment, though, when things really started to take off, when you were on the trajectory all of a sudden of, you know, seeing this book start just starting to sell millions of copies? What was the tipping point, though, from from the beginning to that? I mean, I think it was self published for about nine months before I got picked up by a publisher. And so I had hand sold 19,000 books. And to me, that didn't seem like a big deal because I was just like,

oh, that's, that's just sounds like very little, you know, comparing it to the numbers that I'd heard from like musicians and that. That's a big deal for books though. That's huge, especially Canadian books. Yeah. And at that moment, I mean, I had absolutely no clue, no agent. I mean, I just, it was the editor who reached out to me, who first brought to my attention. She's like, no, this is, this is a big deal. And that's why she actually reached out to me. She's like, why is this? She said she was doing research one day and milk and honey self-published book was showing up on bestsellers lists and she couldn't believe it. And that's when she reached out and was like, we want this. And, and after the book was out, I mean, I didn't do there

was no press or marketing or any of those type of dollars going behind it. And I had that month, I also just graduated from the University of Waterloo. And then I went on a trip to India for about two months. And when I came back, I had a little book signing that I really pushed for, I was like, you know, I'm going to be in California for this other event. And like, why don't I just do a local, like a book signing at a local bookstore? And my publisher set it up. And that event, it was early, early 2016 for me felt like the tipping point because I didn't know anything about the book sales.

And I was kind of like, oh my God, why would I like leave and go off for a couple of months when this book came out? I should have been doing this and that. And I was scared as my friends driving me to my own event. I'm like, nobody's going to be there. We're at a red light. We're kind of close to the bookstore and people are walking by and I'm sitting in the passenger seat and they're waving to me. And I was like, this is so weird. Like, do I know them? And it was like, so crazy. This outer body, like what, what is happening? And then I just ignored it. I was just frozen.

So we get closer to the bookstore and there's just block after block after block is just this like never ending line. And at first I was like, oh my God, is that for? And then I was like, absolutely not. How could you even think that's for you? You're such a loser. Like, come on, get out of your own head. You know, like, it's like bullying myself out of this. And then my friend's like, dude, I think these people are here. And I was like, something is changing. And I get out of the car, I walk in and that's when I knew I was like, oh, something's different now.

And, um, it's just the way that people were saying my name. They weren't even saying Ruby Gore. They were just like, Hey, Ruby. And I was like, oh, like, are my friends here? Like, you're saying my name, like, you know me. And, um, it was a great night. I did like two shows, two back-to-back signings because the staff, they were so red in the face and so nervous because they weren't prepared to handle the capacity. And I was

like, listen, we got this. We'll do two back. It's okay. Working class family, I am equipped. And this is what we immigrants do. Wow. That's amazing. What a story. Like that experience really must have shown you, okay, this is something big. This just isn't you writing on your own here. People are connecting with this. Yeah. And you know, I think, honestly, though, like, I think I just shut down, though I disassociated. Like this year is the first year I'm realizing that word they use, connecting. I'm realizing that and what that means for the first time I think every year prior I was just scared and terrified because I mean I am an introvert I am you know I grew up really shy and really insecure and feeling really afraid and timid and lonely and so when all of this

started happening for me I think I just like disconnected and became really numb. And I guess what, what do you think changed this year? Like, what do you think shifted for yourself that made you feel a bit different? I think, well, throughout COVID, I mean, I had time to sit still because since Milk and Honey, since going off to university, I haven't really sat still. It's been book after book or tour after tour. And then, you know, just more mental health challenges cut through burnout, still trying to write, still trying to release because, you know, once they figure out that they can profit and make so much money off of you, this system sort of, it's not any one individual or any one company, this sort of

environment gets created where there's this constant pressure of writing and creating the next thing and the next thing. And COVID really put a stop to that for me, at least. There was no traveling happening and I was able to sit still and really, really, really find the time that I needed and the stillness that I needed to work through the depression and what it brought forward. I mean, moving out of COVID, I mean, I don't think we're even out of it, but brought confidence and this feeling of power when I got back on stage this May for the first time in like what was two years, I was like, wow, like I'm here. I'm not numb. I'm present. That's the difference. I'm present. Before it was constantly worrying about the future, thinking that all of these blessings that suddenly I had been given that I can now share with my

family so that we're okay. You know, when you don't come from money and you don't know security, it's weird because when you get it, you think that I became even more nervous. I've thought about how I'm going to feed my family since I was probably seven or 10 years old. You know, my dad was the only one that worked. We had there were four kids. My mom stayed at home. And for a decade, my dad was really, really unwell. And as a child seeing that, and as the oldest child, I really took that burden on myself to be like, how will I feed us? And when we went through different financial

issues, you know, that burden, again, that was always number one on my mind, like, how will I take care of us if something happens to my dad, or, you know, something happens to us. And, and all these blessings came for me at a time when we really, really needed them. And we were able to, you know, fall into the security. But what I didn't realize is it would bring this intense fear also of sort of like losing it all. And so now I'm finally in a place where I'm like, okay, this ground is not going to be yanked up from underneath me. Like we're going to be all right. We'll be back after this message. So you have a new book out. It's called Healing Through Words. And it is different than your

other books. So because this is, it's essentially a series of writing exercises that you've curated to help people kind of work through their own experiences. So what can someone else get out of writing down their thoughts and their feelings and their experiences in this way? Writing is so cathartic. You know, I think that especially coming from a working class immigrant family where things like therapy and other mental health resources were so out of the question, writing and art and that form of expression was really my therapy. And of course, it doesn't replace regular therapy, but it becomes one tool, one of many tools that you can use. And I think that it's something that can help you process your experiences. It's a form of self-care, a form of self-love, and can really help you work through the difficult challenges of life. Yeah, writing is therapy, as you describe

it then. I wonder, because you yourself have been writing about mental health for years, have been looking at different feelings for years of your own, but I wonder, have you found that people are more open to, I guess, talking and thinking about mental health and their feelings since the pandemic, since these last few years? Definitely. I mean, I will say I wasn't even in Homebody, my third book, which came out in 2020. There's an entire chapter on mental health. But I think that if the pandemic hadn't happened, I don't know if that chapter would have been in there. It felt like something that I thought that people would laugh or like, wouldn't believe me or they would belittle my pain. And you know, depression is something that I dealt with very seriously before the pandemic, but I think it was seeing so many people talk about it openly that really inspired me and pushed me to feel like

it was okay for me to speak about it because I do have all of these blessings and I'm given so many opportunities and I'm given so many opportunities and I feel so grateful for them every day. But I think what the last few years has taught me is that depression doesn't care. Yeah. I'm glad you brought up Homebody because the first chapter, I believe that chapter is called Mind. And I think it starts with something like I'm in a dark room or one of the darkest rooms. Yeah. Yeah. That's it.

Yeah. Really happy to be out of it. Yes. I want to ask you about performing, though. This is something I think about a lot because I grew up singing, so I think about performing in that way. I think a lot of people have seen your written poetry, but probably fewer have actually heard you perform your work. I've heard you talk about how much you love performing your work, though. Can you just tell me, what is it about performing that you love so much?

Yeah, I actually fell in love with poetry because of the stage. That's where I really started to explore the craft. And 13 years ago is when I started performing, and I was writing poetry exclusively to perform it. I love the stage so much. It was electrifying. It made me feel confident and powerful. And those two things were, I didn't feel those ways in my regular day-to-day life. And so I sought out as many opportunities as I could to get me on stage. So yeah, I love it. And I think for me, that is the full experience. Like that is the final act, you know, writing it as one thing and releasing my writing through a book is one thing,

but the final act is the performance. And it's been such a pleasure to now, you know, go all over the world and share this new show with people. Yeah, no, that's, that's amazing. And can I ask when you were first starting to get up on stage and performing your own work? Were you ever nervous? Like, it's also a pretty vulnerable thing, right? Of course. I maybe only stopped being nervous this year. But I mean, yeah, nervous for over a decade. I used to be so nervous. I mean, there's a reason that I, I switched to wearing just long dresses was because my knees would tremble so much that you could see them shaking when I was wearing pants or when I was wearing anything short. And

the worst was when people would, you know, after they'd be like, yeah, great, great job. Also, were you nervous up there because your knees were justumbling. And so I was like, all right, folks, long dresses only. Smart thinking, though. That's a good move on your part. That's a clever thing. Yeah. I want to ask you about the way you talk about some of your poetry in your new book. You talk about the performance poetry, but then you also talk about something called kind of peach pit poetry. Can you describe what you mean by that? Yeah, I always say that I have like two styles of poetry, and they almost, they're very different. Either I am writing poetry that is meant to be performed on stage, whereas the paper poetry, I call it, is meant to come to life on paper. And so I'm very mindful about line breaks and how things look and appear. Because for me, that all works into the experience when one is reading it. And so I wanted to take readers through how I write those paper poems. And I call them peach pits. And these are the poems, you know,

not all of my paper poetry is short. Some of it is like a page long, but a lot of folks know me for the poems that are maybe, you know, four to five lines long. And there's this misconception that if something is so short, you could probably write it in two minutes. It's actually, I find writing a performance poem, which is five minutes long, much, much, much easier than writing a peach pit poem that's five lines long. And so I always, I kind of approach it like how even maybe one would write an essay. I say, I free write all of my feelings, all of the things going on. I might scan what I've written. I might find something, a little nugget that I'm like, oh, this is interesting. And then I sort of, I figure out what is the thesis of this poem? Like, what is it that I'm trying to say? What is the goal of it? And how does every line help

prove and push that thesis forward? The goal is for it to feel like, it's almost like a shot. It's short. It hits you and it's like, boom, done. Let's go. I call it a peach pit because what we're doing with the peach pit poem is really shaving off the excess and getting to the core of the thing. And so we're peeling back the skin and taking off the meat of the fruit and getting to the center of what it is that you're trying to write and what you're trying to say. Wow. That's so interesting to hear that process. And I like knowing that you start super long for something like that and actually get it whittled down. I'd actually like to look at one of the writing prompts in your new book to kind of look at the

kind of examples that you work through, Rupi. In the last section of the book, you have an exercise about, about writing to male relatives. And this is an exercise anyone can kind of go through your book and write using this prompt that you use. The prompt is if I could sit with all the men in my lineage, I would tell them. I wanted to ask,

you know, why this prompt? Like what is, what is healing about going through the process of writing this out? Yeah, I mean, we all come from so many different cultures and backgrounds, especially as Canadians growing up in the GTA. I mean, we're so diverse and I love Toronto for that reason. I mean, every time I land, I'm like, oh, I'm home.

Like, everybody's here. It's amazing. And I've had the privilege of, you know, making friends from so many different communities and our experiences, especially with our experiences with our male relatives or any relatives and our motherlands, like they're so unique and so different to what the storyline of, you know, somebody that's maybe grown up in Canada from generation to generation would be. As somebody who comes as a South Asian woman myself, I come from a lineage where I'm probably the first woman in my lineage to be as loud and as opinionated as I am. And that is, it blows my mind, you know, and I think that there's so much healing to do. In sixth grade, I was surrounded by young women who all, you know, from other countries,

who were telling me, you know, there's so much trauma that we hold within our bodies. And I think that we can't work through that trauma until we acknowledge it. And, and acknowledging it out loud with certain people might not be the safest thing to do. But I think the next best thing is just doing it in the privacy of your homes through writing. And you do write a lot about women. And I've noticed that with your poetry throughout, there's a lot of really, really empowering things that you end up putting down on the page. We're at a point in society, I think, where we're collectively reflecting a bit more on really how we treat women. You know, I think of

the Me Too movement, even the Free Britney movement. In light of all of this, I guess, what role, if any, what role do you see your poetry playing, I guess, in this moment in time, and how we think about that? It's funny because I just write it and I share it and things happen. It's so weird. But I feel so, I mean, it almost brings me to tears. It makes me just so emotional because I've been on this world tour and every other night I'm in a new city and I get to look into the eyes of so many women, not just women, but most, a lot of them, young women, older women. And I get, I see myself in their eyes. And I think that for me, since I was a little girl, it's always been so important to hold people, you know,

so that we can leave together. All of us can leave the next generation a little better than the last. We have a long way to go. You know, every time I think, oh, you know, I think things are getting better and they are, I see how much work there is to actually be done. Like last night I had a show in Venice and it was so interesting because, you know, it's my show. I have worked really hard to get to this point, you know, where I'm on stage, I'm doing my thing. And it's so interesting because when men are uncomfortable, they still feel like it's okay to sit in the crowd and heckle if they feel like it's making them uncomfortable. And, you know, if this was three years ago, I was telling my friend and I don't say anything offensive. I know that, but it's interesting what happens when men feel like they are not the center, at the center of our narratives, or they are not, if the show is not built for them.

And if it was three years ago, maybe I would have sat back and been like, oh my God, I need to change what I'm saying. And I need to change the poems I'm performing so that everyone in the audience feels comfortable. And it was so, and as I was up there last night and some, some dude screamed something up at me, I was like, you know, you, you be uncomfortable, be uncomfortable because we have been uncomfortable for our, our whole lives, you know? And yeah, I think it's really important for men who, you know, sit in rooms with us. I mean, it's not enough for men to support us and cheer us on. We need them to be a part of the conversation and a part of the action

if we're all going to move forward together. And sometimes that involves being uncomfortable and it involves being not at the center of conversations. Rupi, it was so wonderful to talk to you. Thank you so much for taking the time. Thank you. Appreciate it. That's it for today. I'm Mainika Raman-Wilms. Our producers are Madeline White, Cheryl Sutherland, and Rachel Levy-McLaughlin. David Crosby edits the show. Kasia Mihailovic is our senior producer,

and Angela Pichenza is our executive editor. Thanks so much for listening, and I'll talk to you next week.