The Decibel - Tanya Talaga on Pope Francis’s apologies to Indigenous peoples

Episode Date: April 23, 2025

Ahead of Pope Francis’s funeral on Saturday, many are remembering his time as pope as one that marked a shift towards more progressive ideals, including an apology for the role of the Catholic Church in the harm done to Indigenous peoples through the residential school system, both in Rome, and again in Canada, back in 2022. Some critics said this apology didn’t go far enough. Tanya Talaga is an Anishinaabe journalist, speaker and contributing columnist for the Globe and Mail. She’ll explain the Pope’s role in reconciling historic harms, what impact his apology actually had, and where reconciliation with the Church goes from here.Questions? Comments? Ideas? Email us at [e-mail]

Pope Francis died on Monday. To many, he leaves behind a legacy of progress in the Catholic Church. Born Jorge Mario Bergoglio in Argentina, he was the first pope appointed from the Americas back in 2013. From the beginning, he distinguished himself as being a pope for the people. He lived in a modest Vatican City guesthouse over the traditional Apostolic Palace. He was driven around Rome in a fiat, not a Mercedes-Benz. He spoke about wanting a poor church for the poor.

Pope Francis allowed priests to bless same-sex couples and was an advocate for action against climate change. He cared about those who were marginalized and almost every night before he died, he phoned the Holy Family Catholic Parish in Gaza to see how the people sheltering there were doing. Good evening, Holy Father. Good evening, how are you? I'm fine, thank God. Pope Francis was also the first pope to apologize for the role of the Catholic Church in Canada's residential school system.

The church ran about 60% of Canadian residential schools. More than 150,000 Indigenous children were sent to those schools. And the Truth and Reconciliation Commission report found that more than 4,000 children died in those institutions, though experts say that number is probably higher. Many others faced inhumane treatment and abuse. In 2022, Pope Francis issued an apology to a delegation of indigenous peoples in Rome. I also feel shame, I'm saying it now and I'm repeating it, sorrow and shame for the role that a number of Catholics, particularly those with educational responsibilities, have had in all these things that wounded you."

And then apologized again in Canada. I am here because the first step of my penitential pilgrimage among you is that of again asking forgiveness. you is that of again asking forgiveness." Tanya Talaga is an Anishinaabe journalist and a contributing columnist for The Globe. She covered the apologies in Rome and Canada. Today, Tanya is here to talk about the impact of these apologies, the Pope's role in reconciling historic harms, and where things go from here. I'm Maynika Ramen-Wilms and this is The Decibel from the Globe and Mail.

Tanya, thank you so much for being here. My great thanks for having me. So we learned of the Pope's death on Monday this week. I'm curious, how will you be remembering his legacy? I have to say I was a little bit surprised. He didn't look well for a long time, but seeing his image and the news of his passing made me pause, you know, reflect on his legacy with Indigenous peoples in Canada and the apology tour, our hunt for the apology.

And I thought about how say what you will about the Catholic church. This was the only pontiff to apologize. And that says something about the measure of the man, who he was and the direction that he wanted his church to go in. Well, let's talk about that then. And you mentioned the apology, so let's go back to that.

This was in 2022, so about three years ago now. Unbelievable. Yeah, it goes by fast. He initially apologized in the spring in Rome in 2022 to Indigenous people for the role of the Catholic Church in Canada's residential school system. And then later that year, he came to Canada. He apologized again.

This was actually one of the calls to action in the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. Can you just, very high level, just remind us about this call to action and its importance? In 2015, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission released 94 calls to action. They were roadmaps, it is a roadmap, if you will, to how Canada can heal itself, can heal its spirit.

And one of the calls was specifically aimed at the Catholic Church, and it called on the Catholic Church and in particular the Pope to within one year of the TRC's release to come to Canada and to apologize to First Nation, Métis and Inuit within that calendar year after the TRC calls were released. And as you said, they were released in 2015. That's right, that's right.

And so we found ourselves in 2022 going to Rome, a delegation from the assembly of First Nations, the Metis National Council and Inuit. And we went to Rome to ask the Pope for an apology. What do you remember about that trip? What was that like? That trip was pretty amazing, I have to say. You know, and I say amazing because it's not often

that you get Canada's three indigenous peoples working together. You know, there is no pan-indigeneity, right? There's First Nations people, Métis and Inuit. And we all have very different relationships with the government of Canada, with the provinces and with the Crown and First Nations people are the only of the three to be governed

under the Indian Act, which is a racist piece of legislation that's been on our books since 1876. And the pursuit of apology was something that our leaders, our survivors of Indian residential schools, our family members, our community members had wanted for a very long time. And some of our leaders had pressed and pressed for an apology from the Catholic church. And I remember that trip as being, you know, a little surreal from the fact that we all started in Montreal together. And most of us were traveling on the same plane. So that delegation of Inuit, Métis, First Nations

and the Catholic Conference of Catholic Bishops. All together. We were all together. And that's something I didn't really actually think about till I saw all of the clerics getting into the airport, to the boarding area and I'm like, oh right, we're all going over on the same plane. So that was something, you know,

and it was also pretty wild too, that we brought our own spiritual people with us. That was kind of lovely, you know? I should tell you, I did not go as part of the AFN delegation, because I wasn't. I was media. I paid my own way to go there and to witness what was going on. As a First Nations person, as a journalist,

it was really important for me to be there. And so then what happened when you landed? I remember us all arriving in Rome and getting on these giant white Vatican buses and traveling to our hotel. I remember, you know, the Metis delegation, there were fiddlers there. I remember seeing a video actually of them going through the square and fiddling.

That's right. And they went through St. Peter's Square after the Metis delegation had their meeting with the Pope. And so it was an incredible time, you know, it was a time of pride and sadness. It was definitely a time of reclamation, you know, people wore their regalia, they wore their, their beads, you know, their buckskin vests, headdresses, ribbon skirts. It was something, you know, because under the Indian Act and in Indian Residential School, all of those things were taken away from us.

It's quite a powerful statement. It really was. And then of course, the apology happens. How was that received by people that were there? That was pretty wild. Like all week, everyone was like, okay, is he gonna apologize here? Is he not gonna apologize here?

What do we do if he apologizes here? Because we want him to come to Canada and to apologize in our communities. There was a lot of unknown, but there was a lot of hopefulness. You know, because how can you not seeing the faces of our survivors and, you know, admits the delegation and everyone? We carried other people with us. So many of our family members that didn't come home from Indian residential schools or from Indian hospitals, family members

that we've lost to the child welfare system. Think about all that colonization has wrought on our people. Concept of terra nullis, land belonging to no one, what's happened in 500 years. The church was such a pivotal part of the attempted annihilation of our people. So it was very heavy and emotional.

And so tell me, what did you witness? Like how did people respond? When he finally did, the Pope finally did apologize, how did people react? Yeah, so saying all that, I wasn't in the room, but I was watching from a live stream in the Vatican Press Office across from St. Peter's Square. And I remember being in the press office and there's all of these different media from all over the world and

they're all sitting there working and it's all being broadcast. And I just remember listening to his words and being so overcome with emotion as to hearing what he was saying, you know, and even more so was being in that square afterwards and watching our delegation drumming out of that meeting with the pope, that look on everyone's faces of happiness and sorrow. It was a bittersweet moment, right, but mostly of pride and almost like a jubilation too of it finally happened and we heard that. I'll never forget listening to some of the singing that was coming through from the Stolo Nation that was there listening to that strong baritone of their voice, listening to the drum, the fiddle, it was beautiful. These scenes you're describing, I mean I can only imagine but it sounds so, yeah

it's there's something very powerful about that to imagine this square and you know the drumming and everyone together. It really does seem like something significant here. For sure. And I remember seeing my friend. She's become a friend. I met her in Rome. Eleanor Stonechild, who was the lawyer for Colton Bushey's family.

Colton Bushey was from Red Pheasant Cree Nation. And in 2016, he was shot and killed by a white farmer, Gerald Stanley, in Saskatchewan. And Mr. Stanley was acquitted of any wrongdoing into Colton's death, the lawyer for Colton Bushy's family being there, present as well. And that is what I mean by all the people we carry with us when an apology is made. We'll be back after this message.

And then, of course, Pope Francis did come to Canada a few months later and did apologize again and that is really what people were looking for, for him to give that apology here. What was that like, Tonya? Because I believe you were there as well for that one. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I covered that as well.

We went to Edmonton. We went to Lac-Saint-Anne, um, at Calouet and, um, Quebec city. It was wild, you know, um, so much anticipation and the beginning of course, of the tour was, we called it the apology tour. Sounds like almost like a rock tour, you know, like sell t-shirts or whatever. Um, the beginning of the tour was in Masquitchese, Alberta. or sounds like almost like a rock tour, you know, like sell t-shirts or whatever. The beginning of the tour was in Masquitchees, Alberta. And it was pretty remarkable, you know,

there was so many people there and so much preparation had taken place beforehand. And when I say that, I mean, believe it or not, a large section of the highway was repaved because, um, it was said that, you know, we have to make this comfortable for the Pontiff as he goes to Masquechise. And so you had this incredible paved road, brand

new paved road for the Pope and his significant entourage to get there. And the joke in the community was once the Pope was gone significant entourage to get there. And the joke in the community was once the Pope was gone, they were going to rip the roads back up and return it to what it was like before. But there was, uh, there were so many people, First Nations people, Inuit, Metis that had come to listen and it was all outside in the giant powwow arbor. And it was remarkable to see all the survivors that came from all over. But mind you saying that a lot of survivors didn't want to go. So there was differing opinions, obviously, then here.

A hundred percent. Like some people for sure felt like they needed to hear an apology from the Pope and some people didn't. Some people they may not forgive, not cared, hear an apology. You know, forgiveness is very personal. Each person has to come to terms with what they're willing to forgive and not. We saw many things during that apology, that initial apology, right? We saw Wilton Littlechild, one of the commissioners of the TRC, placed a war bonnet on the Pope's head. And that was a real division. You know, some people said, why did he do that? And then

some people understood that was very much a personal choice of Wilton Littlechild's to place that bon, on his head. Again, this gets to the differing opinions. Right. Not everyone's feeling the same about this. Not everyone's feeling the same. Exactly. And so it was a day full of emotion.

Well, I think this is an important thing that you're bringing up here, though, that the fact that some people, this is a happy moment, maybe it's different for other people, also it's a lot of sorrow here. Did the apology go far enough? Obviously, again, not everyone thinks the same way, but what were you hearing from people about that? A lot of people said it was a start,

but many also mentioned that it didn't go far enough when it came to addressing historical wrongs of the church. And by that, I mean the fact that he didn't apologize for the widespread sexual abuse that happened in the schools. And people were waiting to hear that and they waited to hear that throughout the entire tour. A lot of folks and I'm thinking about Saint Anne's Indian Residential School survivor Evelyn Corkmutz who said she waited a long time to hear the pope apologize who said she waited a long time to hear the Pope apologize, but she could have heard more.

It's been a very emotional day for me as a survivor. I had my ups and downs, my hurrays, my disappointments, my wanting more and not getting it. Nothing really came with the apology, right, other than I'm sorry and little has changed since then. That's, I think, an important point too, because we are now three years out from this apology. If not much has changed, I guess, what's been the impact of the Pope's apology?

It's a tough one, you know. I think the impact, the overall impact was he did it, right? After decades of First Nations leadership asking for an apology, one did come, and it came from Pope Francis, the only Latin pontiff who came from a country where there were disappeared people. He had been through upheaval and death and destruction with what happened with the Argentinian crisis, right?

And this would have been what's called the Dirty War in Argentina, right, between the 70s and early 80s when tens of thousands of people were disappeared. So he was familiar with what loss looked like on such a grand scale. So his apology was something, but the apology sadly has not been backed up with a lot of concrete change or effort. As part of the apology, it's supposed to be a signal to all the other Catholic churches in how to change, right? It's a signal of change, of accepting Indigenous people more into the fold. Have we seen that? No. I don't think so.

I remember being in Edmonton at the giant football stadium. And we were all there to hear the pope after mass, which he's wondering what else is he going to say? Is he going to apologize some more? How is this going to be? And it really felt like a giant mass service. Go in peace. a giant mass service. Go in peace.

Go in peace. Thanks. Thank you. And the liturgy that he gave was really wanting, you know, there wasn't that direction to all of the churches and the Catholic spiritual leaders to take this forward in a progressive way when it comes to acknowledging what happened in the residential schools and in the genocide that's happened here on Turtle Island. So that was a bit of a signal of,

oh, well, maybe things aren't gonna change too, too much. And then the same thing happened in Quebec. Because you went there after Alberta. Right, right. You know, St. Anne de Beaupre and it was a bit more of the same. Everything felt like a giant pilgrimage more so than an apology tour. He didn't use the term genocide though, until he was on the plane going back to Rome. Yeah. genocide though until he was on the plane going back to Rome. Yeah.

And it was a First Nations journalist, Brittany Hobson, who actually asked the question. And he said the word. He did say the word, though. I guess, I wonder, was- On the way back to Rome. On the way back to Rome. And it was seen as significant that he used that word.

Has that, I guess, brought about any significant impact in the years since? It's important that leaders, religious leaders, political leaders, acknowledge it and say the word genocide. That's how we change the minds of Canadians who are on the fence or are not sure whether or not this, you know, what they heard or see or what they understand was an actual quote unquote genocide, right?

And that debate, that denialism is still out there. So it's so important that we hear people like the Pope or a prime minister say, yes, what happened here was genocide. In that way, an apology moves mountains, but our survivors are still waiting for concrete action to back that up. For instance, when I just talked about denialism, the Catholic church should be behind the effort to make sure that denialism is not tolerated because after over a hundred plus years of Indian residential schools of harming of our children, the stealing of our kids, the forced transfer of them across

borders, you know, to go to different schools away from their parents, their language, their homes, and everything they know, the church should be standing with indigenous communities and saying, no, don't let denialism creep in. The Canadian government should also be doing the same thing. So this is kind of, as you said kind of earlier, you know, a first step maybe, but a lot needs to follow. A first step, but the road is long. Before I let you go, Tanya, I, you know, you made a point of saying, you know, Pope Francis was the only pope who did make this apology, who took that first step.

Now that he's passed away, the selection process will soon begin to choose the next pope. What does that next person need to do to continue this process, you know, to address these past harms and further develop this relationship with indigenous peoples here. I think one of the last statements that the pope made as well was on Gaza, right? And on the need for humanity to respect one another and to stop the deaths, stop the killings. You know, I hope the next pope stands on Pope Francis's shoulders and continues the work

that he did, continues work when it comes to reconciliation, to healing the world. Because right now, everything is in such a state of chaos. Everything is upended. We need a leader, a spiritual leader, who's going to be able to come to this place and attempt to heal what's been done and to, specifically when it comes to Indigenous people in Canada, walk with us on a path forward and make sure there is action and truth behind it and not just words. Tanya, really appreciate being able to speak with you. Thank you so much for being here. To me, thanks for having me.

That was Tanya Talaga, contributing columnist for The Globe and Mail. That's it for today. I'm Maynika Ramon-Welms. This episode was edited and mixed by Ali Graham. Our intern is Olivia Grandy. Our associate producer is Aja Souter. Our producers are Madeline White, Michal Stein, and Ali Graham.

David Crosby edits the show. Adrian Chung is our senior producer, and Matt Frainer is our managing editor. Thanks so much for listening, and I'll talk to you tomorrow.