The Decibel - The Canadian detained by the Taliban for 77 days

Episode Date: March 11, 2025

For the last four years, Dave Lavery — a former soldier and UN security advisor — has helped Afghans safely evacuate to Canada. But this past November, during his most recent trip to Afghanistan, he was detained by Taliban Intelligence and Security Forces.But what happens when the person sent in to rescue needs saving?The Globe’s international affairs reporter, Janice Dickson, sat down with Dave at his home in Doha where he recounted his detainment, where he was taken, and how he survived 77 days in captivity.Questions? Comments? Ideas? Email us at [e-mail] 

Dave was heading to Afghanistan on November 11th. Janice Dixon is the Globe's international affairs reporter. She's talking about Dave Lavery arriving at the Kabul airport. He had picked up his bags and then there was a final security screening. Dave is a veteran who was working with a Canadian charity to help evacuate Afghans who'd supported Canada's mission in the country. He'd been to Afghanistan many times,

but this time was different. Janice spoke to Dave about what happened next. So I'm waiting, there's one guy and they're wasting so much time fumbling with his bags, and I was feeling uncomfortable because I felt exposed. I was just getting that feeling, hurry up, because I noticed that there was more presence of security there. And he noticed one man in particular who was on the phone, and he was talking to somebody

and he was looking at him. So I was watching him watch me. And so finally he was able to pick up his bag. And then as I was moving, he started walking. He's heading down the hallway that leads to the parking lot and his wife is waiting there for him. Kept on walking, but I'd walk up faster, walk past him. And as I just approached, I went around the corner

another guy on the phone was come right then and said, go back, go back, we wanna check your bag. Dave said something like, you know know you've checked my bag but in any event they went back down the hallway and the officials there went straight for the bag that that was carrying his laptop. Behind it was an envelope that contained 18 travel documents belonging to Afghans who needed them to leave the country. Took it out, ripped it and started grabbing and seeing all the visas. He also had some of his military garb in his bag because he thought, you know, it's Remembrance

Day, maybe I'll just bring my jacket and throw it on for a photo or whatever. I'm looking at the visas and I'm just, oh my God, that's it for me. Dave never made it to the parking lot where his wife was waiting. Instead, he was held by the Taliban for 77 days. After he was released, Janice spoke with Dave at his home in Dubai. Today, she's here to share the story

of Dave's detention in Afghanistan and how he got out. I'm Maena Karaman-Welms and this is The Decibel from The Globe and Mail. Janice, thanks so much for being here. Thanks so much for having me. So Janice, we just went through how Dave Lavery was detained at the Kabul Airport this past November. Can you give us a sense though of who Dave Lavery is? Sure. So Dave is 64 years old. He lives in Dubai with his wife, Jun Ping. He was a soldier with the Canadian Armed Forces. He worked for the United Nations. You know, he's got a very lively, sort of gregarious personality and he's been committed

to Afghanistan for many years now. When he was detained, he was doing work for the Veterans Transition Network, a charity based in British Columbia, which helps rescue Afghans who are trying to flee the Taliban. And they have a contract with the Canadian government to help Afghans who had supported the Canadian government's military and diplomatic mission in the country. So let's talk about some of his work in Afghanistan because you mentioned he was helping evacuate Afghans, in particular to come to Canada. The Canadian military, of course, has been out of Afghanistan since 2014, But there was a big rush of people trying to leave the country in 2021. Can you just remind us Janice, what happened there?

Sure. So after the US, you know, started pulling out their troops from Afghanistan in the spring and the summer of 2021, a lot of Afghans were really fearful of Taliban reprisals, particularly those who helped and worked for Western governments. And so as the Taliban made rapid gains across the country, this anxiety increased. And then finally, on August 15, the Taliban took control of Kabul. And, you know, I think we can all remember those images of Afghans literally clinging to planes as they're taking off on that day, just horrifying pictures that show how desperate people were to leave. And so Dave was on the ground at that time and even after a lot of help ceased there, he continued on the ground trying to get people

to the airport and through the gates and through this chaos. He and his wife were on one of the final German evacuation flights out of the country. Soon after, there was a suicide bomb at the airport. A lot of people were killed and he made it out safely but then he returned. He returned to Afghanistan to continue helping people and to continue his work there. Yeah so like as you mentioned Janice, like a lot of people really worried about Taliban reprisals because if they were helping Western governments in the time when the Taliban was not in power that really puts a target on their back

now. So Dave was helping to rescue them. What was his role, I guess, in these kinds of missions? Right, so he helps with their logistics. He helps them with their, you know, get their travel documents. He picks them up or he gets them from Canadian officials, brings them into the country, helps get them into the hands that they belong to, and then helps arrange people's travel out.

So in some cases that means playing tickets, but more often it means helping them get to the border. And do we have a sense of how many people Dave has actually helped to evacuate over the years? Veterans Transition Network said that it's been thousands of people that he's helped, that they've helped together. Wow, okay. So it sounds like Dave is very familiar with Afghanistan. He's done this trip many times. But then in November when he went, he was stopped at the airport when he arrived. Do we know why he was stopped, Janice? No, we don't know why. And Dave doesn't know exactly why. He believes that someone may have tipped off the Taliban.

You know, they went straight for the documents. They knew what they were looking for. But we don't know exactly why or who told the Taliban. And when we're talking about these documents, these are documents that are supposed to help get people out of the country. Was there anything illegal that he was doing by, I guess, bringing those into the country?

Not in his view It's you know, it's unclear precisely what the problem was Okay So after Dave has been kind of targeted here at the airport We know he's detained at the airport. What actually happens after they've gone through his bags and they've decided to not kind of release him after they've gone through his bags and they've decided to not kind of release him? Yeah, so they lead Dave to a car and they throw him in the back with his bags. They tied a big scarf around his head and his hands, I believe.

And then they led him to the GDI, the General Directorate of Intelligence headquarters. And, you know, Dave can't see, obviously, but he said that he put the window down a little bit to see, you know, in case someone could spot him. And then in his mind, he was thinking about where they could possibly be taking him. And then ultimately, they took him to the GDI headquarters. And when we say the GDI, the General Directorate of Intelligence, is that the Taliban then? That's right, yeah.

And so while this is happening, Janice, of course, his wife is, she's at the airport, she's waiting to pick him up in the parking lot. What does she do? Well, she's panicking because at this point, it's taken way too long for him to come out. And so she gets in touch with Dave's son, Brandt, and starts saying, you know, he's still not here. And she spends three hours at the airport searching for him. She's showing people his picture. And then eventually someone says the GDI have him. And so she goes to her friend's house. And Brent is telling her you know you need

to leave the country immediately because your safety is now in danger and she really didn't want to leave like she did not want to leave until she had Dave she was just very anxious to say the least but the next morning she left on the first flight and it's great that she did because the Taliban showed up at her friend's house looking for her the next day. We'll be right back. Okay, so Dave has been detained by the Taliban. How soon do people start to get wind of this?

Like the Canadian government in particular, when do people start to get wind of this? Like the Canadian government in particular, when do they find out that this has happened? Brandt was behind the scenes, working the phone, telling everybody that he could. And of course, because Dave was doing this work, bringing in documents, you know, the Canadian government was well aware of what he was doing and his plans. And so they knew pretty soon after that he had been taken. And we know that the Taliban took him to the GDI initially. Do we know then what happens to Dave? Well first of all he said that being sort of pushed around and

and led to different places with his head covered was you know so disoriented not knowing where where you're. And almost immediately he started playing up that he was this older man, that he was injured. You know, he does have a hip injury, and so he was really sort of leaning into that because he was thinking, you know, I need to get to the hospital, I know people there. So that was sort of his mindset as he's first getting led into this building. And so he's brought to a cell. It was in a basement. It had an old thin red industrial carpet. He wrote all of this down after the fact. So when he's

in the cell, he doesn't have you know a pen or paper obviously, but later he gets one. And so some of these details that he shared with me, he's reading from a journal. So I asked him to read out a description of this place and he said, four and a half meter room by six and a half meter room by three and a half meter high with a little narrow window with two windows that open and a little mat

for a bed that's been used for years and it's filthy and covered and I don't want to tell you. And on just a concrete floor with an industrial thin red carpet, a little plastic red cup with a water bottle and one door in and a CCTV camera. So yeah, this is where he spent 28 days. He said his day usually started around 5 30 AM where he was allowed a very quick shower and he said he had a tiny towel. So basically you would shower and then put his clothes on, which became soaked.

And he had the same clothes this whole time. He wasn't given a toothbrush or toothpaste. You know, ultimately he became pretty sick in the cell. It was pretty rough. And then he was also interrogated a few times, you know, asked about the documents, asked if he worked for the Canadian government. He talked a lot about what he did to survive the 28 days in captivity. And one thing he talked about was a dream that he had, a very vivid dream that basically was an escape and then eventually seeing family. And so he said he would return to this dream, you know, whenever he kind of went to a dark place and he used it to cope. So he would break

up the dream into episodes in his mind and play them over and over again and sort of visualize, you know, an escape essentially. Wow. Okay. So that's, I mean, he's in a pretty difficult situation there. And Janice, you mentioned he's there for 28 days. He's detained for much longer than that though, right?

So what happens after that? Eventually they take him to the hospital and he's really sick at this point. So they take him to the hospital and he undergoes a number of tests and then he's blindfolded, brought back to the car, but he can tell that he's being taken to a different location. And so then he's brought to a guest house and he gets to this place and there's actually American captives there. And when he gets there, they actually say to him, we know about you because they saw on the news that he had been detained. And so he gets to know these other Americans and he's sharing a room with an American. Everything sort of improves from meals to his quality of life day to day. You know, he went from being in a cell by himself and sort of

these horrifying conditions to a house. You know, it's a massive upgrade when you're talking about conditions of of captivity. Yeah. And then he's actually moved another time, isn't he? Yeah. So this is probably the biggest surprise is that he's ultimately moved to his own home, the very villa that he has been renting for a long time in Kabul. And so he's blindfolded and brought into the car, brought to his home and he's basically under house arrest there. Okay so now he's in his own home, different conditions again. What's the situation like though? How close is he being guarded? What are his days like? Yeah so he still has a number of guards there, electricityity was an issue, but generally his conditions were much better.

He's in his own environment. He's able to cook. He's finding all kinds of food in the freezer and, you know, he made this incredible soup that he talked about. He was able to use his gym. He rearranged his furniture. He spent a lot of time cleaning. You know, he still was obviously thinking about his family constantly.

That was definitely the most painful part of this experience for him. But his physical conditions improved greatly when he was in his own home. Was he able to get in contact with his family at any point? Yes. So the first time he was able to talk to his family was on December 30th. So they allow him a phone call. He said it was 15, 17 minutes, something like that. They brought him to the Minister for Affairs office.

A representative brought him there. And of course, he's guarded during this phone call. So he's going to be careful about what he says. You know it was a good feeling but it was hard, you know it was very emotional because when you're doing this call you have you know the representative of the Minister of Foreign Affairs holding a phone like this. He talked to Jun Ping, his wife, and you know he was so grateful that she made it out and knowing that she made it out because he knew that she was waiting for him at the airport.

And so this phone call was so important because he heard her voice and knew that she was safe. And Jun Ping, I spoke with her as well and she was shocked. And so, yeah, it was a really emotional phone call. And he kept saying to them, you know, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry. And he said his son, Brent, was amazing saying, you know, don't say sorry. You didn't do anything wrong. You need to concentrate because he was still being held and, you know, he wanted his dad to stay focused Yeah, and

During that time like was his family trying to get in touch with him like trying to find out what was going on So they were obviously doing everything that they could but Jun Ping she texted him every single day Sometimes, you know, she she shared these messages with me and they would be in the wee hours of the night or very early in the morning. I don't think she slept at all. She was so worried about him. So even though he didn't have access to his phone,

she's still texting him every day, just in case. She did. She texted him every single day. On day two, for instance, she says, You are gone missing. I hope they are nice to you, husband, with a heart. All the best, husband. Love you so much. Then on day four, she says, Are you okay, husband? Stay strong and do your workout. Stay positive. I'm here with you. Everything will be okay, husband. I'm most worried about your workout. Stay positive. I'm here with you. Everything will be okay. Husband, I'm

most worried about your health." And then as the time goes on, like she gets angry. Day 47, Saturday, 28 December. Too long for you and too long for me, husband. Time did not let me change. Time let me become more and more afraid. I dare not imagine how you spent this period of time. My head hurts badly." And she's asking him, what can I do? How can we help you? Clearly as time goes on, she's becoming increasingly desperate. Yeah.

Yeah. And you can really hear the emotion in those messages, right, how difficult this is for her. And I imagine it must have been very difficult on the other end for Dave, too, right? Janice, do we have a sense of how Dave coped? He said that when he was at this villa. I'd go up on the roof when it was cold in the villa.

And when I was by myself, and I and when I was by myself and I'd look at that moon, and I would talk to that moon, and I knew if my family were looking at that moon, they might be able to hear me. You know, I asked him, what did you tell the moon? And he said that he was trying to be positive, saying, you know, hey guys, I'm in Villa One. That's his home there. I'm on the rooftop. I'm staying fit. I just made the best I'm in Villa one. That's his his home there. I'm on the rooftop. I'm

staying fit. I just made the best chicken soup in the world. Actually gained a few pounds. You know, he said he was trying not to be hard on himself and letting them know that he had positive energy. Also letting them know that, you know, he knows that he screwed up in many ways, but that they'd figured out and make things better. So he's detained for 77 days, Janice. And then finally, in late January, he learns that he is being released. What happened? So first, he's actually able to make a secret phone call, because he finds an old cell phone in the villa. He was later able to get cell phone chargers that were in his bag that the Taliban eventually brought to him.

They brought my personal bag, my backpack, and in it I had some, you know, all the power banks and all that. I'm going, maybe this one of these little things work. I plug it in beside the bedstamp and all that. And then all of a sudden it started lighting up. I'm like freaking out trying to turn the thing off. Oh my gosh. I go, it's got 4G. You know, 4G, oh my God. So I put it away and you know, that night

I'm waiting till all the guards tuck me in and all that in my room. They go downstairs. So I'm up there and I'm now very excited. I think it was the 22nd of January. So I'm under the covers and then. Duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh,-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d- start to his eventual rescue. You know, around the middle of January, it really looked like he was gonna be freed and something happened and nobody seems to know what, but his family was actually waiting for him

in Doha for some time and it didn't pan out. And so then eventually the Taliban guards tell him that their boss, you know boss wants to speak with him. He has a phone call and they say, Dave, you're going home tomorrow. He found out one evening and the very next day he was going to leave. He was taken to the airport and then he flew to Qatar and he said it was surreal. He really didn't believe it until he was landing. And actually he described going down the staircase onto the tarmac,

and there are all these people there. And he thought, gosh, there must have been someone really important on the plane. He had no idea that the welcoming committee was actually for him. And he sees his wife's head, then he sees his son. And he said that in that moment he felt like this is real, like I'm finally with my family. You know, he said that when his wife hugged him, it was like she was never ever going to let go.

You know, she's jumping on me and crying emotionally and it's making me, I don't want to break down and go crazy, but it was very emotional. Do we know Janice who secured his release or how this was negotiated? No, we really don't know the nitty gritty details. I mean, of course we know that Qatar and the Canadian government was involved, but we don't know exactly how things unfolded that led to Dave's release.

And, you know the the Americans that were held captive there are some that still are there are a few or a couple that have been released and they had been held much longer than Dave you know and Dave will be the first to point out that 77 days is a long time but in the grand scheme of things things moved much faster for him than some others who are detained. And Janice, you had a chance to actually visit Dave and Jun Ping, his wife, this past month in Dubai. How is he doing?

You know, it was an emotional meeting, I think because I was there so soon after he had been released and he and Jun Ping had only actually been home together for a few days that through the course of this interview, it seemed like they were even learning information about one another's experience for the first time. And it was really clear how hard it was for them to be separated. Definitely just really, really hard. to be separated. Definitely just really, really hard. So just lastly, Janice, I mean, we talked about how Dave was traveling with documents for Afghans who were trying to leave the country. This is when he was detained, he had these documents in his bag. Do we know were those people ever actually able to leave the country? Yeah, actually, Dave said that despite him being detained, his team was still able to move

the family out of the country and onward to safety. That's a happy aspect of the story. Janice, thank you so much for taking the time today. Thanks so much for having me. That's it for today. I'm Maynika Ramon-Wilms. Our intern is Amber Ranssen. Our producers are Madeleine White, Michal Stein, and Ali Graham.

David Crosby edits the show. Adrian Chung is our senior producer, and Matt Frainer is our managing editor. Thanks so much for listening, and I'll talk to you tomorrow.