The Decibel - The fandom of Taylor Swift

Episode Date: November 21, 2024

Taylor Swift starts the second week of her Eras tour in Toronto today. And since the record-breaking tour landed in the city, it’s been the site of Swiftie pandemonium.Tens of thousands have travelled for the concerts, and even a number of out-of-town Swifties without tickets took the trip. The kind of dedication Taylor Swift attracts is rare, even as pop-star fandoms become more fervent. So what’s so special about Taylor Swift? And what sets her fandom apart from others?Niko Stratis is a freelance culture writer based in Toronto who writes the newsletter Anxiety Shark. Her debut book, The Dad Rock That Made Me a Woman, will be out May, 2025. Niko joins us to explain the sensation of Taylor Swift, why being a fan has become more intense, and how it changed the relationships between artists and their fans.Questions? Comments? Ideas? Email us at [e-mail]

Taylor Swift starts the second week of her ERA's tour in Toronto today, on Thursday. And our producers, Ali and Michal, went to see the pandemonium ahead of the shows. They spoke with fans at the tailgate party. That's T-A-Y-L, gate. The dress code was all sparkles and sequins. And fans were picking out lettered beads to make signature Swifty friendship bracelets. We are making bracelets and sharing them with people.

I made over 400 friendship bracelets. I went through her entire discography and made one bracelet for every single song she has ever made. My favorite one is the torture department and this one. Come on, you gave me that. No, I gave you rap. Oh, no, I didn't. Well, I made one for my wife, right?

And it was quite a task. This one I really like. It's a love song, but they put a football on it, which reminded me of her new boyfriend. It's fun to find little bits and pieces of her lyrics that kind of stand out to you and just sound pretty. These colorful bracelets have become markers of the fandom, a way for people from all over to connect. We drove about nine and a half hours to be here. I came in from Montreal. We met someone else who is from hours to be here. I came in from Montreal. We met someone else who is from upstate New York. I'm from Northern California.

I'm from Winnipeg. She came in from Virginia. I came from London, Ontario. This morning in my hotel, I met a woman who her and her kids were from the Dominican Republic and they had come up here for the concert. And a lot of those fans don't even have tickets to the show. You know, we're hoping that maybe some luck will bless us and we'll get in. I don't have tickets to the show. You know, we're hoping that maybe some luck will bless us and we'll get in. I don't have tickets to the concert, no. But I came to just like hang

out and vibe and, you know. I did go, I stood outside of the stadium at one of her previous shows and that was definitely also an awesome experience. Don't have a ticket. I'm a ticketless Swifty, but I'm going to the concert tonight. This kind of dedication doesn't happen with most artists. So what's special about Taylor Swift? And what sets this fandom apart from others? Nico Stratis is a culture critic and music writer. She joins us to explain the sensation of Taylor Swift, why being a fan has become more intense,

and how it's changed the relationships between artists and their fans. I'm Maina Karaman-Wilms, and this is The Decibel from The Globe and Mail. Nico, thanks so much for joining us. Oh, thanks so much for joining us. Oh, thanks so much for having me. So why do you think so many people around the world connect to Taylor Swift? You know, she is able to write in this sort of way where everybody is. It's like giving you a placemat at a really nice restaurant with crayons and saying, draw yourselves in wherever you want. And I think a lot of people are really able to do that. It's this line that she walks between being confessional and being secretive, wherein you can see yourself fitting

into all the corners and all the angles and all of these things. And I think a remarkable thing about a lot of her work is that it does have this broad appeal that a lot of people can connect to, even if it's just a line or a word or something, you know, they find themselves and then they feel like they're part of this thing. And especially because it's such a big movement. I think once you feel like you're part of something big, it's really hard to like to let go of that. Yeah. And it's a really interesting point because I think a lot of people do feel this connection

with her lyrics in particular, right? Sometimes they're weird. There's like specific but also universal in a way. Like you can see the specific situation, but you can also kind of, as you say, like write yourself into or see yourself in that particular moment as well. Yeah. It's hard with somebody as famous and as rich as she is, because at a certain point, you assume like your life experience and my life experience are going to be two different things. But like I reviewed Midnights for the Global Mail a few years ago. And, you know, like I remember

listening to that record and being like, oh, I've done that, you know, and a lot of like, what she's talking about sometimes is like, oh, I've felt that or I've done that. And like, that's a time when I was like, oh, I see what's happening here, because I've been this person. And somehow, she is both fabulously wealthy with like two private planes, and also like, kind of hates herself a little bit when she looks in the mirror. And that's such a universal thing. That like, it's so easy to get that appeal, right? I'm like, yes, I also don't like myself. This is perfect. Here we are. Yeah, it's such an interesting way to like, actually have that, yeah, that connection to someone that you don't always expect you, right?

Yeah. So what I guess, what is the distinguishing fact here, though, Nico, right? Because a lot of a lot of pop stars have big fans, dedicated followings. But there seems to be something really different, though, when Taylor Swift comes to town. So I guess what sets Swifties apart from other fans? I mean, there's more of them. There's a lot of them and there's a lot of them from a lot of disparate communities. It is a real gathering of people from all sort of walks and avenues. And I think that really sort of builds up this massive movement, right? Because for a lot of fandoms, you know, they're sort of all approaching it from a shared or similar angle. But here is somebody that has a massive queer fan base. She has, you know, it's huge amongst young women and people of color. And was it last year, there was that article about somebody that

was in prison that felt connected to her work. And they're all bringing somebody with them. And that really sort of builds up this broader community that you don't see in a lot of fandoms. You do, but not in pop music so much. You see that in other things. But I think also there is a real sense of ownership in her from her fans that feel like they are an intrinsic part of her life and her career and of building her. If we think of her as a monolith, they are all people who have put a stone in the pile. And by doing so, they're all sort of like, it's like they're minority shareholders in a company. And they're all sort of come here to see this grand delivery of this year's speech. And I think when you have that sort of buying and that sort of ownership, you feel very protective of a thing as well, right? Like a lot of fan bases are really protective of their star or of their idol, but with her, it's a little bit more rapid. And I think that's part of it is a lot of them feel

like, well, they're the ones holding her up. They're the reason why she's as big and as famous as she is. And, you know, when you have that sense of ownership, yeah, it's really hard to sort of see anything, but this is the product of your work. And I wonder how much Taylor herself, I guess, kind of encourages this community in a way around her work. Like, she seems like someone who is very deliberate about the image that she puts out there, what she does. So does she herself, I guess, kind of foster this fandom?

I mean, she does and she doesn't. You know, we sort of picture her as this puppet master that is moving all of these pieces. And like, you know, she's a very smart, very clever business person. And she knows that her fan base is like this. And a good thing that she kind of does is she lays just enough mystery for everyone else

to figure out and then kind of gets out of the way. All of her fans feel really connected to her and like she's speaking to them directly, but she also is never speaking to anyone. She's a largely private person, even though we see her personal life constantly. But, you know, like I think she knows how to sort of wind everything up and then step back and watch it all play out. And it's really, really fiendishly clever. You know, like she kind of doesn't always get the credit for really understanding her audience and never really needing to engage directly with them

in order to feel connected to them. Yeah, that's an interesting point you said about how like, you know, we feel like we know parts of her personal life because of the kind of music she writes, but like she's not someone who's usually in the tabloids and things. Like we don't see that side of her,

but we feel like we see the personal side of her through her music. Yeah, like you see almost more tangentially the people that are connected to her more than her, right? Like even now, you know, we see a lot of NFL content because of her partner or like, you know, thinking last year when she spotted with Sophie Turner, when Sophie was splitting up with Joe Jonas and like, and you can sort of imagine her being like, she's rich and she's fabulous, but also she's going to brunch on weekends, which is probably not true, but you can almost imagine it because you don't really know because we never see that side of her. And we're so used to seeing that side of everybody else, right? Think of every terrible photo of Ben Affleck you've ever seen in your life. And we don't have, there's no photo

of Taylor Swift trying to hold onto seven boxes of donuts while picking up a nice coffee. Because she's, you know, she's very calculated how she exists in the world. She's a lot like Beyonce in that way, where like, you don't see a lot of photos of Beyonce, right? Because that's like a very carefully guarded secret. And like, you know, it is this kind of fame that is so big that is locked behind a door. But there's a picture there and you can sort of see like, oh, I can imagine everything that's going on on the other side of this because I want that to be real.

Interesting. Okay, so Toronto is entering our second week of ERA's tour shows. We had three last week. We've got three more this week. And a number of people in the city, Nico, like people have traveled from really far to be here. Even at just like the tailgate event, which is kind of like the pre-party to the concert. People are showing up. Our producers were talking to them. They don't even have tickets to the concert, but, which is kind of like the pre-party to the concert. People are showing up. Our producers were talking to them. They don't even have tickets to the concert, but they want to be here in the city. They want to be part of this mood, this moment.

And it's really hard to think of another modern artist that kind of inspires that kind of dedication. I guess, yeah, just what do you make of that level of commitment to Taylor Swift? Yeah. I mean, it's like fish in a lot of ways and the Grateful Dead before them even of like people make pilgrimages to see these shows and the atmosphere of it is every bit the parking lot as it is the show itself. And sure, the point of it is to go inside and listen to Taylor, but like it's also to be there with your fellow Swifties.

And I think that is like such a big, massive movement that we don't see in other pop stars, right? Like you would equate that more with like a football or whatever of like, oh, there's a big thing. The parking lot is full of people barbecuing under the back of their truck. And like here we have Swifties sort of hanging out outside of the stadium, either waiting to go in or not able to go in, but it doesn't really matter because there's still part of it in some way. You can still walk away being like, well, I was there. I didn't go inside, but I was there. I was, you know, we were outside, we were talking to people, we were making homemade friendship bracelets and, you know, sling and bootleg Taylor merch for $500 a shirt. And God bless you if you are. I'm turning 30 in January. So I grew up listening to Taylor Swift and

I've been with her through all of her eras. If I could bottle the feeling inside the stadium, and even here, it's joy. It's positive. You feel safe inside, you know, as women, you feel safe. And that woman can make every single person in a 70,000-seat stadium feel like she's singing directly to you. And that's why. She's relatable. She's grounded. She's authentic. She's relatable. She's grounded. She's authentic.

She's generous. You know, all the things that you would want a pop star to be, but what they very rarely are. She brings women together, which is wonderful, but, I mean,

according to her albums, we date the same men. So, I... I... How can you not listen to it? And it also just gives you a reason as a grown woman to like be excited to be a girl and like not feel any shame around that and like just have fun, which I really appreciate as a mom. And for my kids to grow up watching someone like that in the public eye. And as you mentioned, of course, a lot of her fans are women and young women, older women, kind of all ages, girls. I guess, what is it about Taylor Swift

that draws such a female fan base? I think she speaks really well to the sort of reality of being a woman, especially right now. She never sort of hides away from, there's highs and there's lows in her work. And I think that balance is a really interesting thing that not a lot of people do. Because a lot of people, especially, you know, famous people would want to sort of paint themselves and like, well, look, aren't I fabulous? Or aren't I amazing?

But like, you know, she really writes a lot about like the self-doubt and questioning herself. But also like being in love and feeling confident and self-assured and all these things. And she has all sort of like the marks of a life that I think a lot of people can feel and I think that is a really important thing and you know like I'm sure men can listen to it too and be like oh yeah sure everybody you know feels sad every now and then but I think it's different when she speaks to a very unique and specific experience and I think she sort of finds that balance really well of feeling like tangible and

real in a way that a lot of people don't always manage to do. And I think that's definitely part of it is like, here's my life. You know, don't you see yourself here too? Like holding a mirror up to people and being like, no, we're all in here together. Seeing the mother daughter relationships where like now they both love Taylor Swift and yeah it's just a really unique thing a really unique artist. For a pretty long time my dad is a new Swiftie. She captured a certain generation the first time she released all of her albums and then now we're in this era where she's rerecording her old music and it's getting re-exposed to a new generation of

Swifties and so I just don't know that there's another artist that has ever been able to like successfully capture like multiple generations the way that she has. And I think something that a lot of people focus on too is her re-release of her albums, right? The Taylor's versions of her earlier albums, because she didn't own the rights to those music. She's re-releasing them. She's owning the rights. She's kind of taking ownership, right? Of what she created. People feel kind of inspired by that, I think. Can we just talk to that a little bit, Nico, about how that's seen? wouldn't have ownership over, where they sign themselves away or their rights and their stories don't really belong to them. And taking this moment to say, actually, no, these do belong to me and I'm going to fight

for them. And I'm not going to back down from them until I have them. And then I can do them in a way that feels right for me. And that also financially benefits her in a better way. But also being able to control these parts of herself, especially the parts of herself when she was younger and when she was being mentored and brought up, being able to go back and take ownership of that and saying, well, now I own this. I mean, what woman doesn't want to go back to their younger years and say, you know what, I'm going to take ownership over those years where I maybe didn't feel as control of myself as I wanted to. I'm going to claim them

for myself, warts and all, but I'm going to own them now. And now they belong to me and no one can take that away from me. I think that is such a beautiful and inspiring thing to think about a lot of like, well, how can I do that in some way? How can I look at all of these memories of all of these times where I maybe didn't feel at my peak or at my best, but I can go back now and I can claim those for myself and say, regardless of what happened, here they are. They're my version and they've built me into who I am right now. We'll be back after this message. Nico, let's take a step back for a moment and just talk about fandom more broadly. When did being a fan of a pop star, I guess, when did it become so intense? I mean, the internet has a lot to do with it, right?

We're sort of in this interesting period where Twitter is kind of dying and then the new world is waiting to be born. And Twitter kind of has a lot to do with it because it was finally this place on the internet where everybody could meet and gather and find themselves. It was an extremely simple tool. You know, when it started, you only had 140 characters and like this place where there's

no real hierarchy to speak of beyond the blue check system that has like shifted over time. But everybody could come and they could gather and they could find like-minded people. They could be in a group DM and suddenly, you know, like fandoms could organize and mobilize in these avenues where before it was splintered off. You know, like in the early days of the Internet, we still had fandoms then, but they were different. Because if you were a fan of, you know, Pearl Jam, you went to the Pearl Jam website and you talked on the Pearl Jam message board. Or if, you know, like when Avril Lavigne got big in the early 2000s is kind of when the Internet started to become this mass user based tool. And that's where the Avril Lavigne has died and replaced by a body double conspiracy theory grew out of early fandom, right? Like it was a GeoCities

website in Brazil that sort of built up that conspiracy. And like, that's when fandom started to become something bigger and a beast that no one could control. And then eventually you put everybody in this place like Twitter, which is the quote unquote town square of the internet, you know, suddenly these things just get massively out of control because everybody can find their community there and they can gather and they can start to bully people and they can dox people. And they can, I mean, you think of the tens of millions of people that use that website, that was an uncommon thing 20 years ago, which now we take for granted of like, now, you know, when everybody's looking for where's Twitter going to go next? What we should be asking is where's fandom going to go next? Because that's going to say where the Internet is going, really.

Interesting. Yeah. So from what you're saying, I mean, it sounds like this kind of intense fandom isn't necessarily unique to someone like Taylor Swift. I mean, she's got a massive fan base, but a lot of artists now have dedicated followings today that, I mean, like 20, 30 years ago, it seems like that just wasn't the same. Yeah. I mean, it wasn't the same just by virtue of technological limitations or whatever, but like fandom has always sort of existed in this way. You know, like the Beatles had rabid fans. Elvis had rabid fans. Like fandom has always existed in this way, but it is heightened now. It's more immediate now we see it so much easier and taylor's fans are like they are the fandom that people are the most

terrified of to be quite frankful but she's not alone in that you know like a lot of pop stars have fans we're seeing a lot of news about chaperone this year uh we think of the mitski conversation from a few years ago like these are all people that have these massive uncontrollable fan bases that can sort of do good or do ill. Taylor just happens to be the biggest and loudest by virtue of her being kind of the biggest pop star in the world. You know, when you're on top, you're on top and your following is sort of going to reflect that. Yeah. The stars you just mentioned, like it seems like we're mostly talking about women here, or is this just kind of the examples that we're pulling? Like, I guess I wonder if gender plays a role in this.

I mean, gender plays a role in it, for sure. Pop music in the last 20 years, especially, has been a genre that has featured a lot more women than it has men. Going back to sort of my idea of the early days of the internet, for a long time, you would think of fandom as a thing that men did. You looked at fandom as like, you know, these are people that are fans of science fiction or comics or whatever. These things that at the time weren't major properties. You know, Taylor especially has this real spotlight on this wide fandom that is predominantly women. And you look at the Billboard Top 100, which everybody seems to care a lot about the last

few years, which is a surprising thing for me. But there's a lot of women in there because a lot of women are pop stars and they just sort of like exemplify in that world. And their fan bases are huge. And it's not to say that there is that it's only women, but it's just it's such a big market that is always sort of overlooked, even though when you look at the demographics, it's there. You touched on something a little bit earlier, Nico, that I want to come back to this, the kind of the negative side of fandom as well. Can we talk a little bit about that? How can this be a negative? really want any sort of critical feedback on them to be fawning praise or to feel reflective of their own fawning praise. And when that doesn't happen, things can turn sideways really quickly. You know, it is not uncommon now for journalists, cultural critics, or whomever to be doxxed, to be harassed, to be chased off the internet for writing even middling reviews of any pop star.

Again, like when I reviewed Midnight's for the Globe and Mail, I asked for my name to be taken off the byline in the middle of the night just because I was like, I wasn't even negative, but I was like, but I'm not positive enough. And if you're not positive enough, people will come for you. And they did, you know, like I got emails, I got people that sent me what they thought was my address, which it wasn't. But like, these are the things you sort of have to contend with because, you know, how dare you sort of go against the collective

word of who this person is. And it sort of erodes this landscape of cultural criticism because how can we have an honest conversation about what these things are and what they mean, how they're reflective of a current age and all of these things that cultural criticisms can do when everybody sort of demands you either like fall in line or get harassed offline. And it is a really challenging, difficult thing. And, you know, this week and last week, I've been talking about Taylor Swift on a lot of shows. And I've heard from a few people that say that I'm not a big enough fan to be talking about it. And I've had to sort of push back on people and say like, well, my job isn't to be a huge fan. My job is to understand it.

And I think I do a really good job of understanding Taylor Swift, even though I have described myself in the past as Taylor agnostic. But, like, I think I understand it. I think I care about it. I think I do my job to look into it. But my job isn't to love her. But they sort of think that everybody's job is to love these things. And if they don't love them, they shouldn't be writing about them. And that's not the case. And I also wonder about this possibility,

too, of like fans actually maybe turning against the artist a little bit, too. Like I think about last year with Taylor Swift in particular, right, when she was dating Maddie Healy, a musician, and a lot of fans didn't like that and were fairly vocal about that, too. So I guess I wonder, has it shifted the way that the artist actually connects with their fans as well? Sure. Yeah. I mean, like you said, the Matt Healy thing was a real rough road because people didn't like who she had chosen. Like everybody is collectively her mother or something. And like we wanted you to date a nice boy. You're dating the guy from the 1975. But he still smokes inside. I didn't even know you could do that anymore.

You know, and it is interesting how fickle that can be when somebody is not sort of living up to the potential. And there's been other examples of that. Mitski is a prime example that I've been trying to bring up in a lot of these conversations of somebody whose fan base kind of turned on her when she said, I don't like the way that a lot of this fan system works and I'm uncomfortable with it. And that sort of like when she sort of rebuked on that, people turned on her and it became a really challenging thing. And we saw that with Chaperone this year, too, of like wanting to say, like, I don't like how intense all of this is. And you sort of have to choose either to want that intensity or to push back on it. But if you push back on it, you know, you do sort of get this feedback of like, well, we're responsible for your fame. You owe us. You know, this is the price of this. And like, it actually shouldn't be. But we've sort of like collectively agreed that being beholden to all of these people is part of the job. It definitely sounds like there can be some negatives here. But clearly, Taylor Swift's tour also encompasses a lot of joy, it feels like. It seems like there's

a lot of positive, happy aspects to it, right? So I guess just lastly here, Nico, can we kind of dissect that a little bit? What are some of the positives that come out of the intensity, really, around Taylor Swift? I'm always glad to talk about the joy of it, because I think it's true. I've talked to people that have been to these shows here in Toronto, and everybody is like, it was amazing. It was incredible. Everybody has that glowing moment walking away. Even people that are skeptical are like, you know what? I went in, not really caring. And I walked out a believer. And I think that's a really beautiful thing. I think, especially for like younger people that are going with their parents or their guardian

or whomever, if they're going to this thing, maybe it's the first time going to a concert and they walk away feeling changed. What a beautiful, magical thing that gets to exist that we still get to rate look we're in a really sort of interesting and difficult and trying time in our lives right now you know politically socially what have you i think having these moments where you're like for one night i was free is kind of perfect and it's a nice reminder of we will always have these things that we sort of need to hold on to this idea of like there will always be these one night where you get to go out and feel free for even just a couple hours. And I think that is a beautiful thing of people getting to sort of go and see and feel these things and walk away feeling like a little bit lighter, even if that lightness only lasts for another day.

Nico, thank you. This was so interesting. Really appreciate you being here. Oh, no, thank you so much for having me. You're hearing music by Choir Choir Choir, a group that organized sing-alongs to Taylor's music last week in Toronto. That's it for today. I'm Mainika Raman-Wilms. Our producers are Madeline White, Michal Stein, and Allie Graham. David Crosby edits the show.

Adrian Chung is our senior producer, and Matt Frainer is our managing editor. Thanks so much for listening, and I'll talk to you tomorrow. Go! Go! Go! Go! Go! Go!

Go! Go! Go! Go! Go! Go! Keep it going! Go!

Go! Go! Go! Go! Go! Go! Go! Go! Go! Go! Go! Go! Go! Go! Go! Go! Go! Go! Go! Go! Go! Go! Go! Go! Go! Go! Go! Keep it going, go!