The Decibel - The life-or-death limbo of the Afghans who helped Canada

Episode Date: November 16, 2023

Many Afghans waiting to be resettled in Canada have taken refuge in Pakistan since fleeing their homes when the Taliban took control in 2021. That can be a dangerous and difficult situation for them ��� and now there’s an added concern. The government of Pakistan has begun deporting thousands of people back to Afghanistan.Today, The Globe’s Janice Dickson shares the stories of people she’s spoken with who are in hiding in Pakistan, or who have been deported already. She explains the dangerous limbo they’re in, and why it’s taking so long to get help from the Canadian government.Questions? Comments? Ideas? Email us at [e-mail]

So after the collapse on 15, I guess I was in office. And during these few days when they're taking the embassy staff and those who work with them, taking to Canada, I was thinking that they will definitely save me. They will definitely save me. This is one of the many people in Afghanistan who is involved with the Canadian government. The Globe and Mail is not naming her because of safety concerns. After Afghanistan fell to the Taliban in the summer of 2021, she was hopeful that the Canadian government would help get her out. I was waiting for them in my home.

When I hear that they left Kabul and they left us, I was completely under pressure and under stress. Because of her work, she became a target for the Taliban. So they issued my name in the death warning, and they wanted me to catch and to kill me and to take my family. Many times they attack on my home. This woman and her family fled to Pakistan last year. She says their lives are under constant threat. have medical care. So I don't know. I am very worried about their future, about the education, about their food. They're eating unhealthy food because we don't have food. And then earlier this month, the government in Pakistan began deporting thousands of people back to Afghanistan. Many of

them were waiting to be resettled in countries like Canada. And the threat of being forced back to Afghanistan is terrifying for people like this woman. So we are completely in hiding. But I have the fear if I go back, if I go back to Afghanistan, Taliban definitely kill me and my husband, my family. The Globe's Janice Dixon has been in touch with this woman and other Afghans stuck in Pakistan, waiting to be resettled in Canada. Today, Janice tells us their stories and why they've been stuck in a dangerous limbo for so long. I'm Mena Karaman-Welms, and this is The Decibel from The Globe and Mail.

Janice, great to have you here. Thanks for having me. So, we just heard a little bit from the woman that you've been speaking with, who's hoping to be resettled here in Canada. What can you tell me about her and the work that she did with Canada? So she worked for a program that focused on empowering women and helping them bring their goods to the market. She said she did a lot of work with economic empowerment and women's rights in the country. And so she didn't work directly for the Canadian

embassy, but she worked for a program that was very important to the Canadian government. And she said something about how she had been targeted by the Taliban. What happened there? That's right. So following the Taliban takeover in August 2021, she said she was part of a very big WhatsApp group chat with others who had worked for programs that were associated with the Canadian government's work in the country. And the people in this group chat were all trying to find out how to come to Canada. And they were also talking about the Taliban and what it was doing in the country. And this woman was particularly vocal in this chat. And she said

that one of the members of the group had been detained by the Taliban, found all of the names in the chat, and that she had ended up on a list that they were targeting. Wow. Okay, so once she felt targeted, then I guess, what did she end up doing? Well, she spent a lot of time hiding. And I remember speaking with her throughout that time. And she mentioned being, you know, incredibly fearful, but not really having a way to Pakistan. Eventually, she made it there with her husband and her children. And she's actually something that we've heard other Afghan refugees doing as well. So she made this move to Pakistan. A lot of other Afghan refugees have also ended up in Pakistan. Why are they going there? So these are neighboring countries. And for decades, Afghans who have fled conflicts in Afghanistan have fled to neighboring Pakistan. So there are already millions of Afghans living in Pakistan.

And in the case of the Afghans that we've been discussing today, they've been hopeful to reach Canada, and many go to Pakistan while they wait for word from the Canadian government. Now, there's something important to mention about this overall process, and that is that typically the Canadian Immigration Department will give veterans groups who have been busy evacuating Afghans from Pakistan the okay to move them to Pakistan. Then they stay in hotels that are funded by the government, and that's, they'll go and do their biometrics. They'll do medical checks and then wait for flights. Those are all things you need to get to Canada, basically.

Exactly. Yes. And this woman was not invited to apply to the program. She's written to the immigration department and a lot of members of parliament a number of times, but she has not been invited. And so she did make this journey to Pakistan in hopes of that changing, and it still hasn't. What has she said life has been like for her when she's there in Pakistan? Yeah, it's been really difficult. She was renting a room from a Pakistani man who had kicked her out some time ago because she couldn't afford rent. Of course, she doesn't have any money. And now since these deportations have begun, that same man has

led her back into her home because he is obviously showing some compassion and doesn't want to see her deported. And so she said that he's agreed that her family can stay for a few months, but they might eat one meal a day. You know, they're relying on the generosity of strangers. And I believe like she can't really work, right? And with her status, she can't work. Her children aren't in school. And it's been, you know, two years of that. Yeah. So let's actually talk about these deportations then, because people are now getting caught up in this. What exactly is the government doing?

So Pakistan announced in early October that it was going to deport anyone living illegally in the country. And of course, that overwhelmingly affects Afghans. And so anyone without documents, they have been deporting back to Afghanistan. And many of these individuals have lived in Pakistan for a very long time. And also in this effort, people who have been waiting to go to Canada or other countries have been affected because perhaps their visa has been expired and so they don't have legal documents to show. Now, the Canadian government has said that Afghans can show police if they are arrested or detained, email exchanges or,

you know, anything that they have from the Canadian government that shows that they have an application in process. But from what I can tell from some of the people I've been speaking with there, that hasn't been enough. And so what has the government in Pakistan said about why they're deporting people in this way back to Afghanistan. The government has raised a number of security concerns and have alleged that Afghans have been involved in some recent Islamic militant attacks. I mean, this seems like a pretty drastic move, though, right, to send people back across the border. What has the response been from the international community and, I guess, organizations especially that look out for these things?

Well, the Pakistani government has faced widespread criticism over this move. I know Human Rights Watch has accused the Pakistani government of using threats and abuse and detaining Afghans without documents into returning to Afghanistan. And that group said that these deportations violate the country's obligations as a party to the UN Convention Against Torture and also contravenes international law and its principle around not forcing people to return to countries where they face risk of torture and persecution. So the concern here is if they're sent back to Afghanistan, they could face some really dire situations here then. Yes, for sure.

And especially those who have a connection to Canada. They're terrified of living in Afghanistan. They're fearful of the Taliban who have beaten and abused Afghans that have had connections to foreign governments. It is just honestly so shocking to consider the fact that these Afghans have, in some cases, you know, sold all of their belongings. They don't have homes to return to. They have found themselves finally in the relative safety of Pakistan. Just to be sent back is really devastating for these people.

According to the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, as of October of this year, there were 3.7 million Afghans in Pakistan, and among them around 700,000 Afghans who fled to Pakistan after the Taliban takeover. Wow. Okay. Do we have a sense of how many people have been deported so far? So since Pakistan announced these measures in early October, more than 280,000 Afghans have left Pakistan. Now, the federal government would not give me figures on how many people they know have been deported who had been approved for resettlement in Canada. But Amon Lara, one of the main groups who has been evacuating Afghans to Pakistan, who would travel onward

to Canada, told me that they're aware of six families so far that have been sent back. Wow. So these are six families that were waiting to get to Canada and have now been sent back to Afghanistan. That's right. And I did speak with a man this morning. He was approved to come to Canada along with his wife. His wife is pregnant and the two of them were there on their way to the hospital this week. They were walking to the hospital when they were arrested, taken to the police station, and then promptly driven to the border. Oh, my God. Wow. So they're going to a hospital. She's pregnant. They're looking for care, obviously, and that's what happens to them. Exactly.

I guess, can you just remind us, we touched on it a little bit, but what has life been like in Afghanistan since the Taliban took over a couple of just over two years ago now? What does it mean for these people to be sent back there? Well, for instance, the man I spoke with this morning who just arrived, he's staying with his cousin because he's too fearful to go back to where he lived before because his neighbors know about his connection to Canada, knew that he had fled, and he's just so fearful that they would tell the Taliban that he's there. And so I think that there are a lot of people who are living in fear. Of course, women have no rights in the country at all. It's facing separately a massive humanitarian crisis. And so it's really a terrible place for people to return to who thought that they were on their way to a new future.

We'll be right back. So you've been reporting on people stuck in Pakistan. I wonder how do these experiences that we've been talking about today, how do they fit in with other stories that you've heard from people who are there? Well, first of all, I went to Pakistan last November to meet with Afghans who were waiting to come to Canada to hear their stories, to hear about what they thought was taking so long. In many cases, there's some very complicated paperwork. They have large families.

And over the course of my trip there, and I only spent a week in Pakistan, but I spoke with dozens of Afghans that had stories to share. And it did strike me then that it had taken so long for so many of them to hear from the government. And it's shocking that a year has gone by, and many of them are still in the same situation. I will raise the case of one family that I met in November, and they were not receiving communication from the government, they had sort of seemed to slip through the cracks. The man had been a security guard for Canada's embassy in in Kabul. And so I went to their, this room that they rented in Rawalpindi.

And he was telling me that his 14 yearyear-old daughter had been outside their house, and she went to a bakery, and he could hear her screaming because into the the street in the front and someone had doused him with a hot liquid that burnt his chest and she showed me this terrible scar and it had the liquid had burned through his his clothes and burnt him um and that's awful yes and and this family was uh their hazara and they it's a minority in Afghanistan and they were targeted. And so after I met them, a hotel in Islamabad. And then they have made it to Canada since. So that is a good story in the end that they finally made it here. But what I haven't been able to figure out is sort of what differentiates those people from the people who are still waiting. And, you know, there's this one interpreter who I've written about. He's actually helped tons of other Afghans with their paperwork. He has a laptop. He helps people fill them out. Then they fill out their forms. They get emails with their flight details. And he's, you know, he brings their luggage up and sees them off to the airport while he's still there. And it's really hard to

get answers on why it's taking so long. Yeah. Wow. So yes, it is possible for people to get through this process, but it does seem like this can take a really long time. It sounds like there's lots of bureaucracy here as well. I guess, do you have a sense, Janice, of why it takes so long to actually go through this kind of process? I honestly don't. It's a question I've been trying to answer for a long time. And a larger question is, how does the government decide precisely who gets to come to Canada? Because this woman who I interviewed, you know, she worked for this women's initiative that was funded by Global Affairs Canada. And she was not invited, yet she tells me that her boss has made it here. And so I think that these discrepancies are, you know,

very frustrating for these applicants that are looking to the person beside them. And they're thinking, well, why is that person going to Canada? And why haven't I been invited to apply? And as time drags on, they're just checking their emails hundreds of times a day, waiting for some kind of signal that they're coming. And it's a really terrible position to be in. Yeah. Well, let me ask you actually about, I guess, refugees a little bit more broadly here in terms of people who come to Canada, because there has been criticism of the federal government for its handling of Afghan refugees, especially in comparison to the handling of Ukrainian refugees. Because the Canadian government in the year and a half since the war in Ukraine has happened,

the Canadian government has brought in around 230,000 refugees from Ukraine, which is, you know, a pretty substantial number. We've only brought in about 40,000 refugees from Afghanistan, though, and that's in, you know, actually more than two years, so a longer period of time. Why is that? Why is there such a discrepancy in those numbers? I mean, you raise a really good point, and this is a question that does come up. I see it in the comments of some of my stories about Afghans and some criticism that it's discriminatory, that it is so much more challenging for Afghans do eventually come to Canada, if they are government assisted refugees, then they have support for a year where the government assists them with housing, with health benefits, with any supplies they need, with help finding work. And they are really being set up to build their life here and to start over. And, you know, on the flip side, I have heard complaints from the Ukrainian community that there is, in fact, not enough support for Ukrainian refugees when they arrive, because they're here on a three-year visa, which is, you know, a visa that allows them to stay here for sort of a short

time, but not sort of stay here forever. So it sounds like, yeah, the visa that Ukrainians are using when they come to Canada, it's a shorter period of time. And I guess, as you said, doesn't have as much support as when we're bringing Afghans, and that's a slightly different program. And there is a massive Ukrainian diaspora here. Many Ukrainians are coming to join their relatives, and also many are returning home eventually when they feel safe enough to do so. So the federal government did say they would bring in 40,000 Afghans, and that number has been reached.

So I guess what happens now, Janice, because clearly people are still looking for help in coming here. That's right. And the government has said that their resettlement work is continuing. And I know that the two main groups who are evacuating Afghans are still very busy moving people who are approved to come to Canada. So all of that work continues. And I know that the government has surpassed the 40,000 mark. And so clearly, they're not saying, we've reached our cap, nobody else is coming. The people who are in the pipeline, they're still on their way here. So I guess just lastly here, Janice, I mean, what does all this mean for people like this woman

that you've been speaking with, right? Who's hoping for some help from Canada for, you know, a long time now, more than two years, like what options does she have left? Well, there are really very few options. One is potentially being picked up by a private sponsorship group. Even if that were to happen, it could take years for her to make it here. In the meantime, she told me that the man that she's staying with, I mean, she never leaves the place where they're living. She's too fearful. She's in Peshawar, which is close to the border.

And he said that when he's walking in the streets that he can see police going door to door. They're looking for people. They're very actively undertaking this work of sending people back. The situation for her remains extremely dangerous. Janice, thank you so much for your reporting here and for being here today. Thanks for having me. That's it for today. I'm Maina Karaman-Wilms.

Our producers are Madeline White, Cheryl Sutherland, and Rachel Levy-McLaughlin. David Crosby edits the show. Adrienne Chung is our senior producer, and Angela Pachenza is our executive editor. Thanks so much for listening, and I'll talk to you tomorrow.