The Decibel - War erupts between Israel and Hamas

Episode Date: October 10, 2023

Warning: This episode contains descriptions of violenceOn Saturday, Hamas, the Palestinian Islamist group, launched one of the largest and deadliest attacks on Israel in decades. Militants stormed past borders on the Gaza Strip, killed civilians in nearby towns and took an unknown number of Israeli hostages. In retaliation, Israel formally declared war on Hamas and sent airstrikes into Gaza. In a single weekend, 900 are dead in Israel and close to 700 in Gaza have been killed.Emily Rose, Reuters correspondent in Jerusalem, joins the show to break down the attacks as they unfolded, Israel’s response and where the war could be headed next.Questions? Comments? Ideas? Email us at [e-mail]

This weekend, Hamas militants launched an attack on Israel, the largest and deadliest in decades. The Palestinian Islamist group fired thousands of rockets into Israel, and gunmen entered from the Gaza Strip, killing civilians. Dozens of people were taken hostage. Israel has responded with a declaration of war against Hamas and launched airstrikes leveling buildings in Gaza. As of late Monday, 900 people have been killed in Israel and nearly 500 killed in Gaza. Thousands more are injured. So all of us woke up to those sirens. We were running for shelters all across the country. And after that, the country went into a state of shock.

Emily Rose is a Reuters correspondent in Jerusalem. The military is calling this Israel's 9-11, and that's not an exaggeration. She's here to tell us what's happened so far, and what the next phase of war between Hamas and Israel could look like. I'm Maina Karaman-Wilms, and this is The Decibel from The Globe and Mail. Emily, thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you for having me. So we're speaking to you Monday afternoon, Toronto time. It's Monday evening in Jerusalem where you are.

And we know there is a high likelihood that things will develop overnight as well. But Emily, let's just start with the initial attacks from Hamas. Can you take us through what happened this weekend? So the first thing to understand is that it's very clear, even at this moment, that the Israeli military was caught off guard. Something like thousands of militants, Hamas militants, infiltrated a very fortified Gaza border, or at least that's what the Israeli military thought. They broke through different parts in the barrier and went into Israel proper. They then entered Israeli communities that are along the border. Those are farming communities and families. They went into certain communities

and took them hostage. We now know that they murdered people as they walked in. They took some of those civilians hostage. Then in a separate incident, there was a nature party also happening along the border. They entered that nature party. There was a massacre there that is now just producing shocking images and stories. Israeli medical officials said that some 260 bodies were found as a result of that massacre. Some of those Israelis were as well taken prisoner and taken back into the Gaza Strip. And then what ensued for the next about 48 hours were multiple gun battles with these militants between those militants and Israeli military personnel. Some of those communities stayed under fire and stayed

under lockdown, and Israeli security had a very tough time releasing them and getting them out And the speed and the strength of these attacks really seem to catch Israel off guard. It has, of course, one of the most powerful militaries in the region. It also has the Iron Dome, its air missile defense system. So do we know how Hamas managed to catch Israel off guard? We don't have any clear confirmation from the Israeli military. As reporters, we've had several briefings with them, and we've asked why they were caught off guard. Something I was told by a military spokesman this morning was that because it was a Jewish holiday, there were less soldiers guarding that base, one of the critical bases on the border. And so they had less manpower there than they normally do. But that doesn't compensate or tell us why there were total breaches in

intelligence and why there were gaps in intelligence. And those questions will have to be answered, but I don't think we're going to need clear confirmation about that today. A little bit earlier, you mentioned that music festival. You spoke to people who were there at that music festival that was stormed by gunmen. What did you hear from people who were there at that music festival that was stormed by gunmen. What did you hear from people who were there? So these were people, young people in their 20s and 30s. They came for this music festival. Not all of them were Israeli. Some of them were internationals. And we're now hearing stories as well about some of those people being kidnapped and taken back into Gaza or murdered. What I've been hearing are stories that are just blood curdling and shocking. I've

been reporting in this region for about 10 years. And I spent a lot of time on that border when it went through very volatile periods. And the stories that you're hearing of people escaping these parties, I had one young man tell me just now that he was taken into a car. They had to run into bushes and hide. They were getting shot at from all different directions and they saw people being killed before their eyes as they were trying to run. Seriously, it's really living hell. Never seen something like this.

I've been in two wars in my life and never seen anything like this. Bodies all places for the slaughter. The slaughterers there, they didn't care if you are a man or woman you are young or old man stories of sexual assault right before their eyes and then executions right before their eyes just trying to get out as soon as they could and then a lot of what you're hearing from those individuals who are at that party the survivors is just their friends who are still missing who they don't know where their whereabouts are, and trying to seek some kind of answer from the military or the government and still not getting what they see as significant enough of a response from the political level. We know, of course, that a number of hostages were taken at that music festival, but also from towns around that area as well. And they were taken into Gaza the years leading up to this attack, a lot of the discussion revolved around Palestinian

prisoners and freeing Palestinian prisoners from Israeli jails. And of course, Israel holds slews of Palestinian prisoners in jails across the country. That is a cornerstone of Palestinian resistance, is trying to free those prisoners. And it could very well be here that Hamas is vying for a mass prisoner exchange. And we have seen situations like that in the past. One famous incident here in Israel is the Gilad Shalit deal, which was a soldier who was traded for lots of Palestinian prisoners. But other such swaps have occurred.

So that could be one goal. And the other is, of course, to show a win. And if you look at the images that are circling on social media from Hamas, they're brutal images, but they show taking these bodies of Israelis or even live Israelis through the streets. So it could be that that's another way of showing a sort of victory in the Gaza Strip. And of course, let's talk about the response now. How has Israel responded to all of this? So there are a few ways that this could move forward. It looks like the most likely, and this is being discussed a lot by analysts in Hebrew media and even analysts I've spoken to, security analysts, is that Israel will launch some form

of ground operation that could come in different shades from completely reconquering and retaking the Gaza Strip to going in up to a certain level or up to a certain geographical point. They certainly seem like they have enough soldiers there on the border. When I looked at the numbers that had been deployed down there, it looked like they were ready to go in. And there was an Israeli military spokesman last night who actually said that it would be the stated purpose of that mission to make sure Hamas does no longer govern the Gaza Strip. That's what he said on a live feed on Twitter. So we'll see if that actually plays out. The other options that Israel has here, and it's used in the past, is to try to attack from the air. And we've seen airstrikes almost continuously over the past 24

hours by Israeli fighter jets in the Gaza Strip. They could do that as well. I think a lot of that will depend on the intelligence they have regarding the hostage situation. Because they don't want to hit their own hostages, is what you're saying? Sure. And they don't want to risk being able to broker perhaps some kind of hostage deal if they see that as possible. One thing to remember here in all of those scenarios that I just described is that if you have a ground operation, if Israel goes in on a full ground operation, there will be a far higher casualty count than there has been. There will be a far higher casualty count than there has been. There will be immense damage to civilians on both sides because there will incur many, many, many casualties on the Gazan side, but also rocket launches and the like on Israeli civilians and, of course, soldiers. And we also need to watch what's happening on the other fronts that Israel is facing, because if those do also take part in the fighting,

then that could be a shift in strategy and could also incur many, many more casualties. So we've seen Israel launch airstrikes in return. Prime Minister Netanyahu has formally declared war against Hamas. What is the significance of Israel actually declaring war like that? I would say that that is a paradigm shift in Israeli history. I mean, there are many people who are saying this week that Israel will simply not be the same. This is ironic because last week I interviewed a veteran from the Yom Kippur War, which was considered also to be a war that changed the face of Israel. And he said that there were murmuring signs that were similar to leadership

then and leadership now. And it's quite eerie even to think that I did that interview just last week. It's the anniversary, of course, of that war. 50 years, right, I believe. That's right. So the gravity of this and the magnitude of this, we're still not comprehending it because we're in the middle. But it is pretty safe to say that this will not be the same. Israel will not be the same. Perhaps its trust in its leadership will not be the same. Its security brass will not be necessarily the same. That is of huge significance, the declaration of war. We'll be right back. Hamas's leader spoke after the initial wave of attacks. What has Hamas said about why they launched this major attack? Their stated purpose initially, and also throughout several clashes that have occurred along the border this past month have been because there has been activity and Israelis worshipping or attempting to worship around the Al-Aqsa Mosque, which is

in the old city in Jerusalem's old city. It's the third holy, ascitably, for Muslims. And that was the stated purpose that they gave for that attack. They said that they didn't like that that holy site was under Israeli control. So that's the stated purpose. And Hamas's leadership also pointed to the 16-year blockade of Gaza as one of the reasons for these attacks. So, Emily, since the 2007 blockade, what have conditions in Gaza been like? Well, Gaza is under a joint Egyptian but mostly Israeli blockade. It has fallen into complete disarray and a humanitarian disaster. Two million people in one of the most densely populated areas in the world completely under blockade. And every piece of infrastructure,

you can't really overstate how terrible life has become for Gazan citizens, Palestinians living in Gaza. Since this weekend, what are conditions like for people in the Gaza Strip now with everything that's happened over the last few days? Israel declared that it was shutting off power. So residents there don't have access to power. They didn't necessarily always have access to power. Even before that, clean water is an issue. Every single staple that you can possibly think of, humanitarian staple that you can think of,

is a difficulty in Gaza with a very, very, very high unemployment rate. It's a very desperate situation, not to mention that the hospitals and all of the emergency services are in complete disarray and crumbling because of being under siege for so long. So that, of course, is going to all be aggravated and made so much worse because of this situation. I want to ask you about a potential agreement between the U.S. and Saudi Arabia and how that factors into this. Historically, much of the Arab world, including Saudi Arabia, has not recognized Israel as a state. But this potential defense deal between the U.S. and Saudi Arabia, it could have helped normalize relations between Saudi Arabia and Israel. So what is the significance in the timing of that potential deal? The reason that that would have significance is

because Hamas is an Iranian-backed militia. There are already reports that Hamas did coordinate this attack with Iran and plan it with Iran. And Iran and Saudi Arabia are regional foes historically. So that's the reason I think that a lot of military analysts and people in the region thought that the timing of this coordinated with that deal that you mentioned. Though we have to look at this attack and see exactly how coordinated it is. If you look at how complicated this attack is, how many militants were involved, the analysts I've spoken to and the security experts I've spoken to have said that this must have taken months and perhaps even a year or more to plan. So it doesn't necessarily look like the timing of that deal or that potential deal

and this attack do coincide. That's interesting though. If analysts are saying it took such a long time to plan and the fact that Israel was caught off guard in this way, that gets back to the point of why was there not prior knowledge to this if it took so long to plan? And those are questions that will need to be answered by the security brass in Israel and by the political branch. Right now, they're focused on trying to get the situation under control. But if we look at any past wars as an indication, the top levels of Israeli military will really have to face some very serious questions at the end of this. There's also been internal political issues within Israel in the last little while,

right? With the current government curbing the power of the judiciary, Prime Minister Netanyahu trying to consolidate power, basically. That has deeply divided political opinion in Israel. So how does that figure into the timing of this violence? That's also another thing that was being, I believe, guessed at for the timing of this incident. But again, if you look at the way that this attack was coordinated, it could have very well been coordinated and planned well before that. What is certain and where you have to factor that in is that for the past six months, as you mentioned, many Israelis have taken to the streets in a very

critical way, saying that they can't trust their government. And right now, this situation aggravates that even further because there's a feeling that there has been lost a sense of security. We've been talking about the Gaza Strip primarily here, but a lot of turmoil before this weekend's events was actually taking place in the West Bank. What do you think we might see there as a result of this violence? So we already saw sort of minor battles last night in the West Bank. There will almost certainly be more. We will likely see militants try to attack Israeli outposts or Israeli soldiers. We will likely see the Israeli military try to have a tighter grip on the occupied West Bank. And those incidents are being anticipated. They're being expected by members of the Israeli military. What we could

also see are attacks launched on Israeli settlers and settlements in those communities. So that's another possibility. Just lastly here, Emily, the fighting continues, the intensity of the Gaza blockade continues. You mentioned that we could be looking at a high number of casualties ahead. What might we see happen in the next few days? all-out ground operation. And that has been an expectation that has been talked about and touted in the past in public discourse, though now it looks like that has been, in my experience, more expected than ever before. And then another expectation from civilians is that Israel will do everything in its power to return those hostages to Israeli soil and do everything they can to get them back alive. Emily, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with us today. Thank you.

On Sunday, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, quote, unequivocally condemned Hamas's terrorist attacks against Israel and expressed Canada's full support for Israel's right to defend itself, end quote. As of Monday, one Canadian has been killed and two more remain missing. That's it for today. I'm Mainika Raman-Welms. Our producers are Madeline White, Cheryl Sutherland, and Rachel Levy-McLaughlin. David Crosby edits the show. Adrienne Chung is our senior producer and Angela Pachenza is our executive editor. Thanks so much for listening and I'll talk to you tomorrow.