The Decibel - What life is like for missing Ukrainian kids in Russian camps

Episode Date: October 1, 2025

Official estimates from Ukraine’s government say 19,000 Ukrainian children have been taken by Russian forces since the start of the conflict. And many of these kids are living in Russian camps overseen by former soldiers. Now, a pamphlet from one of the camps has given the world a window into the lives of these children. Janice Dickson, The Globe’s international affairs report, discusses Russia’s attempts to turn these children against their home land. Questions? Comments? Ideas? Email us at [e-mail] Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Over the course of the war in Ukraine, Globe journalists Janice Dixon and Mark McKinnon have been reporting how Russian forces have been kidnapping Ukrainian children. The official estimate is that 19,000 kids have been taken. But some research groups believe that number could be as high as 35,000. Most of these children are living in areas of Ukraine that Russia now controls. are orphans. Others are children whose guardians were injured or killed in the fighting, and many of them end up in Russian camps. We haven't had an idea of what life is like for these kids, until now, thanks to a pamphlet shared exclusively with the globe. Janice Dixon covers

international affairs. Today, she'll tell us what we learn from this pamphlet and Russia's attempts to turn these children against their homeland. I'm Cheryl Sutherland, and this is the decibel from the Globe and Mail. Hi, Janice, thanks for joining me. Thanks so much for having me. So we got these pamphlets that are being handed out to Ukrainian children in Russian camps. What did these pamphlets say?

Yeah, so these pamphlets warn children not to, quote, provoke the hero. And so in this case, they're referring to Russian soldiers who had fought in Ukraine and who are now acting as counselors in these camps. It says that every word could be, quote, the last peaceful word of the day.

It tells them not to sneak up on the soldiers from behind because it could trigger their, you know, bad memories from the combat field. It says to keep their hands visible to avoid speaking foreign languages. It says if the soldier shouts, quote, do not argue, hide and wait.

It tells the children not to complain about heat or hunger because unlike civilians, the hero, and again, they're referring to these Russian soldiers, knows what hard means. It says politeness saves lives and a smile to a camp counselor is not a weakness. And so in all these cases,

it's referring to these former Russian soldiers as counselors. And previously, you know, there were public reports of former, you know, Russian military and Russian intelligence having some links to these camps, but it wasn't perfectly clear that Russian soldiers who fought in Ukraine were actually counselors in these camps. And it's really strong and direct language in these pamphlets. Yeah, I mean, I think it just shows a window into, you know, what life is like for these Ukrainian children in these camps run by Russian soldiers.

It's hard to even really wrap your head around the fact that these soldiers were fighting against Ukraine. These children were taken into these camps and often they're they're militarized and then they're being told how to behave and it's really also glorifying those who fought against their country and who are now in charge of them. Can you remind us, how old are these kids? These kids are reported to be between the ages of 8 and 17. Right. So that's young. Eight is very young to be thinking about kids being guarded by soldiers. Yeah. And I mean, especially given what we know about PTSD and the fact that these soldiers would have seen a lot, I mean, there's a reason why I'm sure these children are told, you know, not to argue, not to complain around these combat veterans, essentially. So it is young. And after 17, you know, a number of experts who work on this issue that I spoke with said, you know, 18 is the age of joining the Russian army. And so you can only assume what happens after 17.

Why do they have these pamphlets at all? I mean, in occupied territories, in general, in Ukraine, all the children are learning Russian textbooks, Russian history. When I spoke with Alexandra Madvichuk, who's a Ukrainian human rights lawyer, you know, she mentioned that kids are taught that Ukraine doesn't exist. Wow. Wow, that's... Yeah, it's really, it's a part of their history that's being pushed aside, and that's Ukraine's next generation of children.

And she also mentioned there's 1.6 million children in these areas, and this is, you know, what they're being brought up with now. And are these kids, are they being trained to fight against Ukraine? They are. So according to the humanitarian research lab from Yale University, These children regularly go through re-education and, in some cases, forced militarization. So they're learning combat and paratrooper training. They've also been involved in producing military equipment, including drones,

according to Yale's research into this. So I think, you know, a point that Alexandra raised is that they could be creating a national security threat just based on the numbers because there's 1.6 million children living under Russia's occupation and they're growing up under occupying forces, learning Russian history, learning a whole new curriculum, being forced into these youth programs, into camps, potentially into the Army, and that this whole issue should not be viewed as, you know, a humanitarian initiative because while they do need to be reunited with their families for all kinds of reasons. They could also be used as a future fighting force against not only Ukraine, but other

countries. It's a huge amount of people. Does this kind of thing routinely happen? Like, is it common for kids to be taken by opposing forces and then reeducated or being trained to fight? So it does happen regularly in war and conflict that children are abducted. Now, Nathaniel Raymond, the executive director of the humanitarian research lab said that this is the largest kidnapping since World War II. And his organization has tracked something like 35,000 children. But this is a common tactic. There are some recent examples.

For instance, Boko Haram abducted more than 1,000 schoolgirls. And ISIS was also known to have kidnapped a lot of children turning them into soldiers, turning young Yazidi girls into sex slaves. And that's another component of this with children is a lot of abuse and sexual violence. And it's a work tactic. And you're seeing it here on a large scale. And you're seeing the children militarized in a way to potentially attack their own country. These camps are not accessible to journalists because they are in Russia-controlled parts of Ukraine.

So how do we know about these details? Yeah, so our reporting relies on the work of HALA systems. So it's a technology company based in Lisbon, and it uses AI to analyze open source information about these centers, these detention centers and camps. And their work is similar to Yale's humanitarian research lab that I mentioned earlier and also did this extensive report using public. publicly available data and satellite imagery. And is this how you got a hold of this pamphlet? Is it through Hala? Yeah.

So Hala Systems shared this pamphlet with us. They have a lot of sources in Ukraine. And I believe that they obtained this pamphlet from Save Ukraine, which is a big organization that is, you know, heavily involved in repatriating Ukrainian children back to Ukraine and is gathering evidence and sharing them with Hala to also. analyze and use for the purpose of accountability at some stage. And where exactly are these pamphlets being handed out?

Yeah, so these pamphlets are being distributed to children in the Strana Jeroev camp, which translates to country of heroes camp, and that's in Russian-occupied Crimea. But Ashley Jordana from Hallis Systems, who I spoke to for this story, said that they're there is evidence that this pamphlet with similar language is distributed in other camps as well. Okay. Do these actions that, you know, Russia taking custody of these kids and then re-educating them, does that break international law? So it is a war crime and under the Rome statue, forcibly transferring children of one group to another group, if done with the intent to destroy part or the entirety of this group, it says that it could amount to genocide.

as well. And I know our focus is on the camps where, you know, tens of thousands of Ukrainian children are being held, but many others have also been adopted into Russian families with no prospect of turning to their own families. And they're also told that they are Russian. And so this is another important aspect of this forcible transfer of children from Ukraine to Russia. Is that what Ukrainian people believe is happening? Do they see this as a genocide? Well, when I spoke with Alexandra Matvichuk, who's a human rights lawyer in Ukraine, and she brought up this very point.

And, you know, she said, you know, when we talk about genocidal intent, it is, you know, the crime of all crimes, very difficult to prove an international court. But her point was that, you know, you don't need to be a lawyer. to understand that to completely or partially destroy a group, you don't necessarily need to kill everyone in this group. You can just change their identity. We'll be right back. So we've been talking about these camps in a really broad way.

But Janice, what do we know about this camp network? So according to the humanitarian research lab, from Yale, children have been taken to at least 210 locations, which is across occupied Ukraine and Russia. And there are eight different types of locations. So they have documented cadet schools, medical facilities, a religious site, schools, universities, a hotel, family support centers, orphanages, and most often what they describe as camps or sanatoriums. And re-educations. And Re-education is happening at most of these locations, and militarization is happening at about 20% of them, according to their analysis. And so what we're looking at is satellite images.

And so what you can see, for instance, is where they have identified Russia's Youth Army facilities in Melito Pole, which Russia occupies right now that's in occupied southern Ukraine. And you can see where Russian forces have dug trenches in some areas. But you're really looking at a bird's eye view of, you know, it's, you might be looking at a gas station and then a small cadet center and so on. And so we are looking at this satellite images that they have analyzed. Yeah, so these satellite images that give us a sense of, you know, what these locations look like. And the pamphlet gives us a sense of what life is like inside the camp. But what about life outside of the camp? What is life like in these areas?

I think our insight into life under occupied areas in Ukraine is really what we've gleaned from the areas that have been liberated by Ukrainian forces in other regions that Russia had once occupied. Areas like Bucha and Erpin and Kiev region, and there have been so many stories of torture, sexual violence, and people enduring a lot of horrifying conditions. I've spoken with young men in Russian occupied areas who were hiding out at home, afraid that they'd be conscripted into Russia's army to fight against their own country. There is this filtration process where Ukrainians are not really allowed to move without Russia sort of interrogating them and humiliating them and going through all of their belongings. They're encouraged to take Russian passports.

You know, they are fully russifying these areas of occupied Ukraine and essentially trying to turn them into Russia. And a point that's really important to make in this conversation is especially there's, you know, with the Trump administration constantly talking about land concessions and peace talks, it's all sort of talked about at this high level without realizing that there are also a lot of Ukrainians who identify as Ukrainians. who live here and who have now endured years of living under Russian's occupation. That's an interesting point. And on the subject of peace talks, is there a chance that these kidnapped kids will be used as bargaining chips if peace talks do ever happen? Well, and that's the point that Nathaniel Raymond of Yale raised, that they should absolutely not be used as bargaining chips and that children cannot be considered hostages. They're supposed to be protected, and that could set a very dangerous precedent for future wars.

So this issue was in the news last week when Prime Minister Mark Carney and Ukrainian President Volodymyra Zelensky met at the UN General Assembly and talked about Ukraine's missing children. What kind of role did Carney say Canada would play? So Canada with Ukraine, they have co-founded the International Coalition for the return of Ukrainian children. And I believe so far more than 40 countries have joined that initiative. Mark Carney said that the coalition presented Russia with a list of 339 children that they're demanding are returned immediately. And that's a starting point, obviously, given the numbers. But beyond demanding the children be returned, I'm not sure how things will unfold from here. There have been a few

countries that have successfully negotiated the return of some children, but the number that have actually returned so far is around 1,600. So obviously, organizations that are heavily involved in this work want more pressure on Russia, like sanctions, for instance, to try to pressure them to return the kids. You mentioned 1,600 kids have been rescued, and that's out of tens of thousands of kids in these camps. Is there hope that any more can be saved? I think there is hope, but there's also a really great sense of urgency because it's been three years of full-scale war and these children are young and impressionable. They're learning a different set of history. They're learning to become soldiers and they're growing up. And

and something needs to be done because there's not a lot of time. Janice, thanks so much for coming on and talking about this issue. Thanks for having me. That was Janice Dixon, the Globe's International Affairs Reporter. That's it for today. I'm Cheryl Sutherland. Our producers are Madeline White, Mikhail Stein, and Ali Graham. David Crosby edits the show.

Adrian Chung is our senior producer, and Angela Pichenza is our executive editor. Thanks so much for listening and I'll talk to you soon.