The Decibel - What students think about the parents’ rights movement

Episode Date: November 9, 2023

A movement which first gained traction in Republican States in the U.S. is taking root in Canada. “Parents’ rights” is the idea that parents should have more control over what’s being taught and talked about in Canadian schools – particularly when it comes to gender identity and sexual education.Saskatchewan and New Brunswick have recently adopted policies in which students under 16 would need parental consent to change their pronouns at school. Alberta premier, Danielle Smith and Ontario premier, Doug Ford have also mused about the importance of parental rights inside classrooms. At the heart of this are the students, whose voices are often missed in all the noise of this heated debate.Education reporter, Caroline Alphonso and National news reporter, Zosia Bielski spoke to some students about the movement. We hear from some of them and learn about what’s behind this movement in Canada.Questions? Comments? Ideas? Email us at [e-mail]

Over the weekend, Alberta's Danielle Smith was the latest premier to show support for parental rights. And regardless of how often the extreme left undermines the role of parents, I want you to know that parental rights and choice in your child's education is and will continue to be a fundamental core principle of this party and this government, and we will never apologize for it. This is a heated issue that's erupted in debate and protests across the country. The movement is focused on gender identity and sexual education in Canadian classrooms. A lot of adults, especially parents, are involved in these conversations. And often what gets lost are the voices of students. So education reporter Caroline Alfonso and national news reporter Zosia Bielski went to hear from some of them. I feel like students, we're young adults, we should be allowed to choose how we come to school. And I don't think it should be up to the parental authority. It implies that our rights or the rights that we have

aren't as important as the rights of our parents, so that, yeah, that parent rights trump child rights, essentially. It's important that the students' rights, you know, the rights of students being able to have their education be, you know, without disruption, without any setbacks, being able to go to school knowing that they're in a community which values them for who they are. If you force a kid to talk to their parents or if you talk to parents behind a kid's back, that kid is going to lose trust in school and they're not going to learn as well. Like all the noise is kind of just taking like, like making us feel, I guess, some students, that school won't be a safe place anymore. Today, Zosia and Caroline are going to talk about that noise around the parental rights movement and why what's being taught and discussed in schools has become so contested.

I'm Maina Karaman-Wilms and this is The Decibel from The Globe and Mail. Caroline, Zosia, thank you so much for being here today. Oh, thanks for having us, Manika. Thank you. Yeah, I think we should just really start off with a kind of a definition in a way. So when we say parental rights or parents' rights, what exactly are we talking about here? So in a nutshell, parental rights is basically parents wanting more control over their child's education. And I think in many ways, parents have had some degree of involvement in what their child does in school, what school their child attends, what program they attend. But when we're

talking about parental rights in this context, what we're really talking about is parents not wanting their kids to learn certain things in the curriculum, particularly when it comes to gender identity and sexual orientation. Okay. And so when it comes to these specific groups in Canada, it sounds like those are really the points of focus for them. That's right. Well, let's talk about this idea about these parental rights, though. So like, Zosia, do parents have legal rights? Parental rights are sort of not formally enshrined in the law. What we all have as adults are human rights. And parents have duties, fiduciary duties to make sure they protect their children and provide for their children. But when a parent's interests collide with sort of a child's

interests, that is not enshrined in the law as a parental right. And this is what education scholars told us, which is sort of surprising because it's become such a buzzword and a word that gets thrown around, but it actually has no legal standing. So we've seen in New Brunswick and Saskatchewan, they've adopted policies around pronouns for students, that they have to have parental consent to change their pronouns at school if they're under 16. And even Premier Daniel Smith in Alberta and Doug Ford in Ontario have also mused about potentially adopting something like this. Politically, this is getting attention and gaining some traction. But I guess the question is, why now? Like, why has this become such an issue right now? We've really seen a lot of this happen in the United States, you know, primarily in Republican states. And we're seeing that gain some traction here in Canada.

There is this American influence. These attitudes have definitely flowed north to Canada. And then there's also like a mistrust that took hold in the pandemic when parents really could peer in much closer on their children's worlds as they studied from home, they could sort of overhear, you know, what they were learning, what kind of values are being espoused in school, they also sort of witness their kids' mental health deteriorate, their emotional health deteriorate. So there's sort of spidey sense picked up towards schools. So, you know, there was that, the global health crisis and the ways that played into sort of parental mistrust. And then another sort of overarching

reality that experts talked to us about was your adolescence, your teen years, this is a time when, you know, parents and children naturally begin to grow distant. There's a lot of anguish during this time. And there's such rapid cultural change around gender identity. I guess historically, when we look at what is taught in schools and like things change over time, right? So I guess can we put that into context a little bit here about what is being taught in schools now as opposed to a decade ago, two decades ago? So Lauren Biaustock, who's an OISE professor of educational ethics, really encapsulated the broad historical shifts in education for us really nicely. She argued that in the past, schools served as conservative, rigid institutions that sort of upheld those values. So if you were different as a kid,

that was going to be a very sort of punishing environment for you. In the last decade or so, there's been a real shift to diversity and inclusion. And that's left some conservative parents really feeling left behind and sort of left out of the mix. So sex ed has always been taught in schools to some degree. I remember learning about sex ed, and I think, Zosia, you do too. So I think we always learned about it. But, you know, we are now learning about sex ed, and I think, Zosia, you do too. So I think we always learned about it. But, you know, we are now learning about differences. We're incorporating more into the curriculum. And for many parents, they don't want their children exposed to it. The curriculum has become more inclusive, more accepting, more diverse. We're accepting, you know, we are,

we're talking about different families, different type of families. For some parents, that is a taboo topic. They don't want to go there. And so that I think has been, it's been a moment of change for a lot of parents who are uncomfortable, I think, with these topics. Yeah. There's, it seems like there's kind of two similar things. There's issues with the sex ed curriculum, and then there's also this other stuff about pronoun use and chosen name use for kids under 16 and parental rights around that. So there's kind of two things here,

but that end up getting wrapped up together in this issue. And parental rights are the through line. They're entwined through both of those issues. And I mean, this might seem like a basic question, but Zosia, I'll ask you this. Why do we teach these things in sex ed? Why is it important for kids to be learning this in school? Well, that's a good question. And if we go sort of grade by grade, for example, in the early grades, we understand now that it's very important to teach proper terminology for body parts. We don't use euphemism. We don't use cutesy words.

And the very basic reason for that is, for a student to be able to name body parts with proper terminology so that this enables children to disclose, this enables parents to pick up on it. So, again, the very fears that we have about sex ed, some of these things are precisely designed to protect children's safety. The protocol is that all the materials are shared with parents ahead of time, and parents in many provinces have the chance to opt out. But the important thing is that much of this education is sort of centered on science information and safety. to the later grades, grade eight, grade seven, the focus starts shifting quite a bit to healthy relationships, boundaries, how to handle rejection, dating violence. And mind you, gender identity and sexual orientation, these are topics that get covered in sex ed. Mind you, sex ed is a very brief window of education that typically happens in the spring. This is not something that comes up every day. And really the point is sort of to create a kinder and more accepting generation.

We'll be back after this message. Caroline, people who are against the parental rights movement, what do they have to say? Those who criticize the parents' rights movement really raise a very interesting question that we all need to keep in mind is what is the purpose of school? And for them, the purpose of school is to be more accepting, is to be more inclusive, is to understand the differences. And keep in mind, Madhika, like school is not only teaching kids about all identity, is on sexual orientation, is on the sex ed curriculum. But that is just a small part of what happens in the day-to-day lives of students in those buildings. They are being exposed to math and English and science, all those important things that parents want them to be exposed to. And on top of it, they're learning to be more inclusive. They are learning to be more accepting of differences. So for critics of the parental right movement, it's

the position of what is school all about and what should school be all about. There's also talk about safety, right? School is a safe space for kids. That kind of ends up getting wrapped up in this as well. From the students we spoke with, they really feel that these policies, these laws that these provinces have implemented are really encroaching on their space, emboldening some to, you know, use that sort of vitriol against them and make their safe spaces less safe. Okay, so in this fight over parental rights, it seems like there are a lot of ideologies, there's some politics involved.

But Carolyn, I guess I wonder about the parents who are maybe somewhere in the middle, right? They want what's best for their kids, but maybe they're nervous or they honestly just don't understand what's happening at school. You're right. And there are a lot of parents in the middle,

so to speak. And what this movement does, what this parental rights movement does, it really preys on their anxieties because they listen to what is being discussed and they kind of wonder, what are their kids learning in school? Should they be more involved in the day-to-day lives of their kids in school? And I think there's a lot of confusion about what happens as a result of that. As a parent, I know what's happening in my kids' school because I receive more communication from my school than I think my parents ever did. There are more emails that are coming in. There's more newsletters. There's more in the backpack than ever before. The curriculum, if I ever wanted to look at it, I can go online and I can see what my kid in grade four is studying for science or sex ed or anything.

So as you just said, Caroline, this is all online, then parents can access this? And it always has been. It tells you grade by grade what kids are being taught, whether it is in grade one that kids are being taught the proper names of body parts to later grades where kids are learning about how their body's changing. So I think there is this misconception that schools are teaching kids things that are, I don't know, outside the box, but honestly, it's all there.

It's all within sort of a click away. And so what it has done is left a lot of people in the middle, a lot of parents in the middle, really deeply confused as to what this fight is all about. All right, so we've talked about parents, we've talked about premiers, but we haven't yet talked about students, right? The kids themselves who are actually the, you know, the center of all of this. So I guess, what did you both hear from them about all of this? There's been so much noise on parents' rights. You know, I attended a rally at Queen's Park, and there were rallies held across the province where people were literally screaming at each other on the protest side and the counter-protest side. And Zosia and I really

wanted to get down to what are kids thinking in this moment? How are they feeling about how their school environment has changed in this moment in time? One of the students we spoke with was Alex Harris. He's in New Brunswick. He's a transgender student. And Alex talked about how he came out at the age of 14. So the first step of that process was I went to the queer advocate teacher in my school. I figured out that I'm trans. What do I do? How do I go about this? And she guided me through talking to my teachers and starting to have my new name and pronouns used at school. But I still wasn't ready to talk to my parents because I wasn't sure how they were going to react. He was nervous to approach his parents. He wasn't scared to tell them. He was

just nervous at that time. And so he went to the teacher at his school who runs the GSA, the Gender and Sexuality Alliance, and confided in her. And she also offered to help him talk to his parents. What made me comfortable enough to talk to my parents was once I had realized that even if it went, even if my parents didn't react the way I wanted them to, I would still have, like I would still have a safe space at school where I was respected. And what happened in the end is Alex told me he felt more comfortable. Two months later, he sat down with mom and dad in the living room, and he told them. And yes, his parents were surprised and shocked at first, but they were glad he, like when I spoke with his mom, she was glad that he had somebody he could confide in. It didn't mean he thought less of her, it was just that he found somebody he wanted to talk to. And for him, he said the policy in New Brunswick, what it has resulted in is it's resulted in a chilling environment for him.

He hears more obscene language, more slurs. He doesn't feel as safe as he once did. Wow. We also spoke with Merit Johnson, another student in New Brunswick, 16, queer, very supportive family. And she's sort of been fighting to help younger students who may be outed. And she really conveyed that students like her are very deeply uneasy around the parents' rights movement, because to them it signals parents' rights over their own rights. We are so much better off as a world, as a society, when we have kids who are exposed to all sorts of ideas, just all sorts, even ideas which they may disagree with, which their parents may disagree with,

and they don't have to believe all of those things. They should be able to choose which they believe or choose which best suits them. If school becomes a place that just reflects the values of this specific segment of parents, because I don't think that all parents think like this, we're going to be limiting our kids. And she really conveyed the paradox of parents' rights, which is ultimately these parents want more involvement, not only in their kids' school lives, but in their kids' lives. But by sort of exerting this authority and sort of barging in on their worlds at school, it's actually pushing a lot of kids away and creating a distance.

And one of the other students we spoke with was Tristan Kim. Tristan is the president of the Ontario School Trustees Association. He represents the province, but also he is a student in a rural community in Ontario. And Tristan talked about the fact that there are kids in his school who have changed their pronoun or who are queer, and how accepting kids are about this. And, you know, he understood parents wanting to focus school on the curriculum of math and English and science and what have you. But he said school for him was more than that. It was about accepting differences.

And he used the term that I would never use, but he said, everything is very chill here. And I like that about him. I personally don't feel like my school board is doing like indoctrinating me at all. Like we have a gay street alliance at our school. Yeah. That isn't like pushed out very much it's just if you want to come it's there yeah in this room yeah all are welcome but it's not like every single day on the announcements we're like please come out to the gay street

alliance on wednesdays at lunch like it's very just chill like and there's a respect there that everyone is like like thank you for not like i would be annoyed if the basketball team was doing announcements every single day because i'm not on the basketball team right right so i feel like that's a respect that you know should just be normalized so i guess like if we're talking about this the role that education plays here carolina i'll ask you this i guess how do we this, though, between what is happening at school, the role of that and the role of parents? Like, yeah, it's a hard thing to kind of navigate. But where, yeah, where do we land here? I think it's important for parents to be involved in education. You know, the research has shown

that if parents are involved in their kids' education and their learning. Kids are more successful in school. So there's, I don't think there should be a separation. But I think there are things that kids will keep from parents and then eventually tell them. I mean, I don't know, in the history of children, whether children have told their parents everything that happens in their school day or everything that happens in their lives. I think in many ways, if you have built a trust with your child, eventually they will tell you what is going on in their lives. And in the school system, teachers are not encouraging kids to hide things from their parents, whether it's their pronoun choice or, you know, anything else that's happening with them. I think there is some, there are adults, there are social workers, there are psychologists, there are all these people working at school boards that are there to help sort of have that relationship with parents.

They're there to foster a relationship with parents. They're there to build it. And as in the case of Alex Harris, he just needed time. It was not that he was never going to tell his parents that he was trans. He just needed time to do it. And I think at the end of the day,

parents should be as involved as they can in their kids' education, but also maybe trust their children a little more. Caroline, Zosia, thank you so much for being here today. Thank you. Thank you. That's it for today. I'm Mainika Raman-Wells.

Our producers are Madeline White, Cheryl Sutherland, and Rachel Levy-McLaughlin. David Crosby edits the show. Adrian Chung is our senior producer. And Angela Pachenza is our executive editor. Thanks so much for listening, and I'll talk to you tomorrow.