The Decibel - Why an obsession with sleep hygiene might be keeping you awake

Episode Date: August 13, 2025

The conversation around sleep is shifting. Hustle culture views sleep as a waste of time. But in a culture increasingly focused on health and wellness, sleep is seen as something to be optimized and even perfected. Sleep hygiene trends are taking over social media, but experts warn that fixating on rigid routines and products may do more harm than good.Dr. Rebecca Robillard is a neuropsychologist at the University of Ottawa and co-chair of the Canadian Sleep Research Consortium. Rebecca writes for The Globe’s The Sleep Whisperer, a short series of columns offering advice and insights on sleep health. She’s on the show to talk about the science behind insomnia, explain sleep hygiene trends and the treatments proven to work, and remind sleep perfectionists why keeping a simple bedtime routine is best.For more information on insomnia in adults and treatments, read here.Questions? Comments? Ideas? Email us at [e-mail]

For some people, achieving the perfect sleep can become an obsession. If you don't have a silk pillow case, we're going to take a moment of silence for you. 200 milligrams of magnesium glycane every single night. And then I get into bed, brush sheets, silk pillowcases, my tea, and I scroll on TikTok until I fall asleep. Mouth tape. I will preach this till the day I die. The benefits of nose breathing versus mouth breathing, like nose breathing is so good for your somatic system. and your nervous system, I think.

I'm not a doctor, I'm not a professional. Look up a picture of a nose breather versus a mouth breather, and that's all you need to know. All this is pretty simple, easy to do, easy to stick to. If you're not doing it, you're slacking, and your sleep quality is going to continue to suck. We know that getting good rest is an important part of our health, but the talk around sleep can be full of rules and do's and don'ts.

There are products to cure insomnia, even mock tales that are supposed to make you sleep better. Keeping up with it all is, well, exhausting. So, we're talking to a sleep expert to understand what good rest really means. Dr. Rebecca Robillard is a neuropsychologist at the University of Ottawa and co-chair of the Canadian Sleep Research Consortium. She's on the show today to explain the ideas behind sleep hygiene. why this intense focus on sleep can sometimes backfire

and how to figure out what you need to get a good night's rest. I'm Manika, Ramon-Welms, and this is the decibel from the Globe and Mail. Rebecca, thanks so much for being here. My pleasure. Thanks for having me. So what is considered a good night's sleep for adults? Because we often hear this eight hours a night number. Is that actually what we need? This is actually kind of an average.

This is based on some of the recommended guidelines for adults. And of course, this number changes quite drastically as, you know, from, you know, childhood to older age as well. And it also changes based on our genetic makeups and the types of, you know, sleeper that we are. So in a way, what we're trying to kind of push now more is that, you know, people should listen to their own body to determine what amounts of sleep that they need. you know, although most people might be within the seven to nine kind of range and this is what kind of falls with the recommended guidelines for most adults. We also see some shorter sleepers like people who might need just like five or six hours and they function perfectly during the daytime and they're healthy people. So that's not, you know, that's not necessarily an issue,

especially if they function well during the daytime. And on the other extreme, we also have people who, you know, might need more than nine hours to feel great during the daytime. So again, like really, there's no one shoe fits all, like people have to figure out what amount of sleep better suits them. What are some key indicators that you're getting it right? Like, how does someone know if they're actually getting enough sleep? Ask yourself how you're functioning during the daytime. Like, are you feeling relatively rested? You feel like, you know, you're really struggling to kind of stay awake during the daytime, like, across the full day. And it is normal. Like we all have those kind of dips in our alertness, like some periods, especially after lunch where we tend to crash a little bit and then energy picks up a bit later on afterwards. So of course, this is not like, you know, perfectly linear for everyone. But overall, like if you're, you know, you're functioning okay during the daytime, your energy levels are good and, you know, you're able to kind of focus, concentrate. You don't have mood issues. And you're probably in a good place.

Okay. I want to ask you about this term that we're hearing a lot, which is sleep hygiene. What are some of the more popular examples that we're seeing? Yeah. It's really kind of vast and broad, and it keeps changing because nowadays, like, you know, lots of people are getting tips on social media, for example, and those are not always based on science. But some of them are as well. And there's all sorts of distortions as well. So basically, you know, there's some, for example, pertaining to light exposure and there's, you know, this kind of, you know, trend now of those blue light emitting glasses and on the flip side as well, all the filters and the amber glasses or amber filters. And, you know, there's a rationale behind this because we know that the biological clot that regulates our sleepwalk cycle is really sensitive to blue light specifically. From like our phone or our computer, right? Yeah. that's where we get it from these days?

Yeah, well, I mean, any type of blue light, but it's true that, you know, all of those devices are especially rich in that type of light. And the biological clock is just sensitive to light, you know, full stop, but it's just like specifically sensitive to that amount. So, for example, you know, you might need lower levels of light if it's blue light to be able to have a significant impact on the biological clock. And so basically we can use light exposure to shift our biological clock, you know, in one direction or the other. And the timing is key here. So, for example, if we use light in the morning,

it pushes our clock earlier. So that makes us fall asleep earlier in the evening and wake up earlier in the morning as well, whereby if we are exposed to bright light in the evening, then it pushes our sleep schedule later. So basically, this doesn't cure insomnia, right? Like, it doesn't relieve any types of sleep problems. But if your sleep issues are kind of pertaining to issues kind of going to sleep at the right time or waking up at the right time. Like we see sometimes people who have what we call social jet lag, like they can fall asleep very well. Like that's not an issue. And when they sleep, they have good quality sleep. They just can't sleep at the right time for what society kind of asks them to do, to get up and to take care of the kids, go to work

or go to school and, you know, do all that we need to do. So, you know, light from that perspective, it's true that it can help, you know, shift the timing of our sleep schedule at a time that kind of suits our scheduled best. But again, like it's not an overarching kind of solution or treatment for sleep issue. It's rather specific to issues pertaining to the biological clock. Okay. Yeah. So if you're an individual that's kind of, you know, you don't really have insomnia, but maybe you have some issues with sleeping at certain points of time. I also want to ask you about other things that are kind of in the ether, like we hear about melatonin helping you sleep or even mouth taping, which some people might not be familiar with. Like, do those kind of things actually

work? Yeah, well, melatonin is, I'm glad we spoke about light because, like, it's kind of the flip side of light if you want melatonin will also really strongly act on the biological clock in that circadian system. So we can, again, use melatonin to kind of shift in one way or the other, but like in terms of just treating insomnia issues, the evidence is not there. Like for certain kind of subtypes of insomnia where people might have, yeah, sleep issues that are more driven by kind of a normal biological clock or a weak biological clock, then perhaps that could help, but otherwise not so much. The mouth taping thing is a bit more controversial. Can you describe what it is for us? Because I feel like a lot of people aren't familiar with this. Well, I think this is

mostly for kind of snoring, right? So people who might be snoring during the nighttime. And we know that snoring could, in some cases, be linked to sleep disorders like sleep apnea, for example, which is one of the probably next in line after insomnia in terms of affecting most people. But the scientific evidence is not quite there. And there's actually concerns as well that this could be potentially dangerous. I think that there's this kind of notion as well that, you know, if you breathe through your nose as opposed to through your mouth, somehow this is better breeding patterns.

But yeah, not exactly aware of the benefits of that, especially during sleep. Can I also ask you about the gadgets that we see these days? Because there's lots of things that track your sleep, right? Watches or even those aura rings now. Are those actually effective in helping someone get better sleep? So, you know, as a sleep scientist, I'm really kind of excited by all the emergence of these devices. This is certainly on the rise, like a lot of people are using these devices at home. However, I think the critical point is what you do with that information, right?

So if it kind of drives you to be more aware about your sleep, you know, we tend to have, you know, this kind of healthy lifestyle with, you know, watching what we eat and going and exercising and sleep is often neglected. So, you know, of course, as a sleep person, like I really embrace anything that will get people to kind of be more aware about their sleep. However, we're seeing this phenomenon emerge that's called autosomnia, which is a phenomenon where people are, getting overly preoccupied with achieving the perfect sleep and what we're getting a feel of is that these wearables are kind of fueling that like people are kind of tracking and just making sure that they're you know trying to get like the perfect numbers um and the the thing is also that not all of these devices have the same level of accuracy and so sometimes you know you might get feedback that might point you in in a wrong direction and at the end of the day having it

bad night every now and then is perfectly normal. It's how we react to those bad nights that kind of can become a problem and can lead to chronic insomnia. If, you know, we get too sleep centered and too overly preoccupied with achieving like perfect sleep, whatever that is, then, you know, we might change some of our behaviors, some of our ways of thinking around sleep that kind of become a bit more pathological and kind of, you know, spiral down. towards more chronic sleep issues. And that's something that we've been observing in our work as well. Like we've just released a study in which we surveyed a large number of Canadians.

And there's a lot of people using these sleep wearables. Like most of them feel like there's, you know, potential positive effects on their sleep and their, you know, stress levels and their mood. But there's also some people who feel like there's negative effects and they still use it. You know, there's that kind of addiction to it. it. And we're seeing also some clear associations between, you know, of course, more people who have sleep issues tend to use these devices, but then they also tend to be more anxious when they're using these devices. So even the clinical and the scientific sleep community are still trying to catch up and see how to best guide people for safe use of these devices. Yeah, so it sounds like they

could have a benefit because you just, you have more information, but you want to be careful that you're not kind of dipping into something that's a little bit unhealthy and making you too focused on trying to attain something that's not really possible. Absolutely. Absolutely. I think, you know, sleep wearables in a way could fall in the same category that they fuel sleep effort, right? Like they get people to do things about their sleep, whereas sleep should be something that

comes naturally. You know, sleep shouldn't be something that requires like extra additional efforts. And so, you know, we're talking about sleep. hygiene, giving some examples of, you know, quite elaborate, you know, routines and, and kind of rigid, you know, practices that people kind of put in place. And then, whoops, what happens if one night, you know, the temperature is slightly higher than, you know, the recommended, you know, temperature that you're seeing online, for example, because, you know, weather changes or, and what if, you know, you don't have, you know, that heart choose you're running out and that kind of, you know,

special that like sleepy girl mocktail yeah exactly like you know and then people get anxious if you know and just by chance you might get a good night or a bad night with you know some of these things and then you know people then start thinking about sleep in in very kind of rigid binary ways of okay absolutely need this and this and that in place to get good quality sleep and then now they can measure it as well and get those numbers in their face and it's it's kind of a mystery to me I was saying as a scientist, I'm also curious to learn more about what people do with that information. Like now some of these devices will tell you like, oh, you've got that percentage of REM sleep. What do people actually do with that information? Like all sleep stages are,

you know, super important. They all serve different functions. And your body will also adapt to what's going on in your life. Like that's a beautiful thing. And I think that's really the perfect sleep. the perfect sleep is what your brain will kind of, you know, produce and responds to what your actual physical needs are. And it, you know, there could be some nights where you need a little bit more REM sleep and some nights where you need more of other stages of sleep. And this is okay. Like, you know, there's these, all of these physiological mechanisms that take place naturally within sleep that we don't necessarily need to interfere with. Rebecca, I would say several years ago, it felt like socially we were talking about different ideas around sleep.

Like I think people remember hearing this notion of, you know, I'll sleep while I'm dead, this kind of hustle culture thing where sleep wasn't prioritized. But now it seems like there's been this shift from, you know, viewing sleep as a waste of time to something to be optimized and even perfected. How did that change happen? Yeah, well, the perfectionist, you know, aspect. I think you're a spot on there. And that's something that's really kind of concern. And I think that's something that we see across the board as well. Like you probably have, you know, people with a background in nutrition who might have, you know,

said, oh, people are, you know, getting really serious about that. And you see every joke kind of going and doing marathons and, you know, super intensive exercise. And so I guess, you know, people want to be healthy. That's great. But there's a, you know, a fine line between being overly perfectionistic and just, you know, like having healthy, balanced lifestyles. This is also perhaps linked like the rise in sleep hygiene tips and their popularity might have to do with the fact

that there's a lot of people with insomnia who also have poor access to effective treatments. So, you know, when you're kind of faced with nothing, you're, you know, starting to have sleep issues, getting distressed, this gets chronic. And, you know, there's a lot of people who don't necessarily want to take sleeping pills as well. And so basically there's this kind of interest in seeing, like, what can I do?

How can I be proactive to help restore my sleep? And that's where I guess, you know, we have a bit of a beef because we know that sleep hygiene is not effective for insomnia specifically. So sleep hygiene, those kind of methods we've been talking about. If you don't have insomnia, those are maybe things you can, you know, try to get a better night's sleep. But if you have an issue like insomnia, those aren't necessarily. going to fix it for you? They're not. They're not. And that's a misconception that, again, like even some care providers have kind of bringing sleep hygiene in the mix as opposed to the first line recommended treatment, which is cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia, which really kind

of goes in and addresses the factors that maintain insomnia over time. And we know that these treatments work like there's been at least three decades of research on it. So again, like insomnia is natural. Like everyone will have, you know, bad nights. That's a given. It's really how you react to these bad nights that will make it so that you'll have issues kind of getting out of that vicious cycle. And so, you know, some of the things that we're seeing, for example, are that people then change their behaviors. They're really kind of trying to maximize the time that they spend in bed just in hope to get more minutes of sleep. But then sleep becomes much more broken down. And we know that the mechanisms by which sleep are regulated are kind of suffering from these

types of behaviors. And so then, you know, people see that it doesn't work. And then they might try, you know, some of these sleep hygiene trips. And it doesn't address the fundamental issue that's causing their insomnia. So then it's becoming even more frustrating because they've tried. And they try so hard, but again, like, you know, sleep is not about trying. It's about, like, letting go and giving some room and space for it to occur naturally. Rebecca, I want to ask you about the role of social media these days, because we know how big of an influence it has on our lives. What kind of information are people getting about sleep optimization from platforms like TikTok and Instagram, and what's the effect of that?

Well, that's something that we don't fully understand. quite yet. And I think, you know, the sleep community in North America has been kind of calling for more research on this because of the concerns that are raising. But certainly there's a lot of information out there that's not backed by science. And at the end of the day, again, like, we know what treatment should be given to people with chronic insomnia. And, you know, this is very specific. And this is not something that you do in that kind of a 30 second clip on internet this you know this requires work this requires professional guidance and this is ultimately what people with chronic issues should kind of turn up to so again like it all comes down to

checking your sources if you're just wanting to kind of optimize your sleep then you know perhaps first thing you might want to ask yourself why like you know what is your view of the the perfect sleep and you know is are you able to function decently during the daytime are you getting you know kind of do you feel restful when you're waking up if that's the case then awesome if you feel like a little bit you know kind of you're undersleeping then it's it might be more about creating more space for sleep and creating some space like a buffer of time before bedtime so that you know you get in the right mind space for sleep but if you do have you know kind of sustained chronic insomnia I think you know go and get the right help like an influencer is not necessarily the right person

that's most qualified to help undo things that have kind of crystallized over months or sometimes years at the time. So just lastly here, Rebecca, we know that the perfect sleep doesn't exist. You talked about this earlier. So what should we focus on instead? So I think, you know, rather than kind of being super rigid on, you know, a whole set of rules to follow and, you know, sleep hygiene tips that are kind of black or white, like the key thing as a sleep scientist, I think that is about conceptualizing sleep as your ally, and sleep is

kind of that natural process that will adapt to kind of better serve your days. You just need to make room for it, right? So we need to kind of make sure that we're getting enough sleep for our own needs, and that's a bit of an exercise, and that could be an experiment in and of itself, like trying to kind of shift our sleep schedule by 15 or 30 minutes every week and keep our stable sleep scheduled to try to see how do we feel the next day and then adjust it based on our own feelings of how we're able to function during the daytime. But I think that also one thing that we tend to forget doing is, you know, creating that buffer before bedtime. Like, you know, we tend to have super busy occupied life and then go to bed and then bam, expect sleep to come and, you know,

just creating a buffer zone where you get in the right mind space, do some quiet activity to make a psychological separation between the daytime and the evening is something that is of course quite healthy. And just keeping kind of regular sleep schedules is something that is seen as very connected to sleep health and positive outcomes in terms of physical and mental health as well. But not necessarily, again, for people who might have chronic insomnia or more sustained sleep disruptions, then, you know, these things are not sufficient and we need to get professional help to break those cycles. Rebecca, really appreciate you taking the time. Thanks for being here. Thank you. Dr. Rebecca Robillard is a neuropsychologist at the University of Ottawa.

That's it for today. I'm Maynika Ramon-Wilms. This episode was produced by Asha Sauter. Our producers are Madeline White, Michal Stein, and Ali Graham. David Crosby edits the show. Adrian Chung is our senior producer, and Matt Fraynor is our managing editor. Thanks so much for listening, and I'll talk to you soon.