The Deck Investigates - Episode 14: If Not Him, Then Who?

Episode Date: November 8, 2024

Our team takes another look at a pool of early suspects that were dismissed without much explanation. With gaps in the case files, we retrace steps and revisit individuals who might have been overlooked. As we explore these loose ends, new questions emerge, leaving us to wonder if crucial details slipped through the cracks nearly 40 years ago.If you have any information about Ada Haradine, please contact Michiana Crime Stoppers at 574-288-STOP or 800-342-STOP or submit tips online at michianacrimestoppers.com. Tips can be made anonymously.You can also reach out directly to the Cass County Sheriff’s Office by calling their main line, 269-445-1560, their tip line at 800-462-9328, or online at www.ccso.info. View source material and photos for this episode at: thedeckpodcast.com/if-not-him-then-who/ Let us deal you in… follow The Deck on social media.Instagram: @thedeckpodcast | @audiochuckTwitter: @thedeckpodcast_ | @audiochuckFacebook: /TheDeckPodcast | /audiochuckllcTo support Season of Justice and learn more, please visit seasonofjustice.org. The Deck is hosted by Ashley Flowers. Instagram: @ashleyflowersTikTok: @ashleyflowerscrimejunkieTwitter: @Ash_FlowersFacebook: /AshleyFlowers.AF Text Ashley at 317-733-7485 to talk all things true crime, get behind the scenes updates, and more!

I told you back in episode 11 that there was a pool of people Cass County was working their way through at the same time that they honed in on Steve. Or rather, Detective Dave Gizzi told you. In your right hand you had a pool of people that could possibly be and then you would take them out if you could get an alibi or a polygraph or whatever and then you move them over to the other hand, they're no longer involved. Their names still in the report, they're still actively listed in the case, but at that point we weren't focusing on them. The problem is, there's hardly anything in the case files explaining how or why certain people were dismissed, or if they were properly investigated at all.

An exception to that is Ada's husband, Ed Heredine. His road from suspect to collateral victim is fairly well-documented. By the time Ada's remains were found, police weren't really interested in him anymore. But they still had him take another polygraph, his third, which he paid for. When he passed it, he was checked off the list for good.

Of course, his brother-in-law, Larry Saarhat, who continued working the case alongside investigators, had already mentally done that from day one. Even Ed's forgetfulness during police interviews might have a simple explanation. He was reportedly a very heavy drinker, and that didn't stop after he lost his wife. Either way, no one we've spoken to believes that he was involved. But with other suspects, things aren't so straightforward. That doesn't necessarily mean the work wasn't done,

because as I mentioned before, despite all the records we managed to get, there are lots of gaps due to missing reports or things that weren't documented. But the result is still the same. I mean, what's the old adage, especially true for law enforcement? If it's not written down, it didn't happen. And after all these years, the memories that might have filled in those case file blanks have faded.

And that leaves us with some major loose ends, and lingering questions that might be hard to answer nearly four decades later. Still, it doesn't hurt to try, right? This is episode 14. If not him, then who? Even before Ada's remains were found, there was a man who appeared in the case file that I became suspicious of. A 51-year-old man who we'll call Gene,

who lived in a house with a direct view of the Herodines. In late May of 1985, a woman from Gene's church reached out to police with a tip. She said that earlier that day, she was taking a walk when she noticed Gene standing in his doorway, staring at the Herodines' home. When he saw her watching, he quickly turned away, like he'd been caught doing something

wrong. And the woman said Gene was kind of strange, and she just had this gut feeling that he was involved in Ada's disappearance. She also noted that Gene didn't work. He had retired early due to medical issues, so he was likely home during the day. Now police had already stopped by Gene's place during their initial neighborhood canvas. Back then, he told them that he didn't notice

anything unusual on May 8. But when a detective followed up after that tip came in, Gene said that he didn't know where he was on May 8, and then his wife interjected and said that they were actually at an out-of-town flea market for most of the day, which left police and me kind of scratching our heads. Why not say that you weren't home the first time around? Why imply that you were home by saying you didn't see or hear anything unusual?

Detectives also noted that Gene seemed nervous and evasive, and that he was unusually inquisitive about the case, more so than the other neighbors, asking if they had any leads or suspects. During investigators' visits to his home, he ordered other family members out of the room. And even though he and his wife claimed that they didn't know the Herodines well, Jean was quick to dismiss the idea that Ada would have left on her own, insisting that she wasn't the type to do something like that. But it seems like any suspicion around Gene faded after they talked to one of his friends, who described him as an honorable man who was genuinely upset by Ada's disappearance.

They basically chalked up his unusual behavior to him maybe secretly admiring Ada from afar. his unusual behavior to him maybe secretly admiring Ada from afar. The end. For the rest of 1985, 1986, and 87, during those years, as you'll recall, police were much more interested in Terry. But Gene did come up again. In a May 1988 report, after Ada was found and the case was taken over by Cass County. They noted the following. Due to the location of where the victim's body was found, it appears that at least deserves a looking at in regard to this case. That was because Gene wasn't only a neighbor. He also owned a cottage on Birch Lake,

just 10 minutes from where Ada's remains were found. So detectives had interviewed him later that month, but we have no clue what was said because we couldn't find a transcript of the conversation in the case file. What's wild is a few decades later, in 2013, an anonymous tipster contacted Crimestoppers to report someone that they thought could

have killed Ada. And it was Jean's son, Doug, who was 17 when Ada went missing. Caller advised that he fits the description of a person who would be capable of committing such a crime. Caller also stated that the subject lived around the corner of the victim, Ada Haradine, and was familiar with the area where her body was found at. Callers stated that the subject disappeared right after or around the same time that this happened.

Police didn't appear to follow up on that lead. They probably didn't take it very seriously because it's so vague. The report doesn't even mention Doug's relation to Jean. We actually pieced that together through public records and social media. Now, Gene passed away in 2019 before our investigation started,

so we couldn't talk to him. But next best thing, or maybe even better thing, if you're more interested in that 2013 Crime Stoppers tip, Nina got in touch with Doug, who was shocked to learn any of this. He had no idea that his name had ever come up at all. And he was equally surprised to learn that police were ever truly suspicious of his father.

I mean, he knew his dad was questioned, all the neighbors were, but he said that any suggestion either of them were involved with Ada's murder is, as he puts it, ludicrous. Doug described Gene as the most caring, loving, honest man you would ever meet. He remembers how fear permeated the area

after Ada's disappearance, and that he and his family had conversations about the importance of watching out for his mother and sisters. He said the notion that Gene might have admired Ada from afar was ridiculous to him as well, because his parents were happily married for more than 60 years, and, more than anything, because of his dad's medical issues.

His mother was basically his full-time caregiver. In fact, it was those very medical issues that may have caused the so-called evasive behavior that police found so strange. Jean's daughter told us that her dad had a massive stroke a few years before Ada went missing, and in addition to physical limitations, he suffered memory loss as a result. As for Doug, he said that back in 1985 he was just a teenager concerned with girls and football, and that he was in school on the day Ada went missing. Now that's not something we're able to verify all these years later,

but we did confirm that classes didn't let out until 3 10 p.m. at his high school, which was 10 minutes from Crabtree Lane. So assuming Doug was in school, Ada would have been gone by the time he got home. Oh, and according to his sister, he actually left Elkhart in 1993, not right around the time everything with Ada went down.

That is as far as we could reasonably take the Jean and Doug lead, and I do feel pretty confident that the answers we were looking for don't lie within their family. So we turned our attention to another loose end who is very worth trying to tie up. A man named Daniel Reel. Back in June of 1985, a prosecutor flagged Danny Reel as a potential suspect in Ada's case. Danny had a history of bad behavior, including burglary and forgery.

Danny, who was 32 then, had recently been arrested for stealing furniture from an Amish family's home, and he was suspected of shooting at a car on a local highway. He was actually in jail when his name came up in Ada's case, but not because of any of the things that I just mentioned. This time, he had been caught breaking into a couple's home, twice. At first, the homeowners didn't notice anything missing, but then they found something chilling, literally.

Danny had allegedly stashed the wife's underwear in their freezer. And it gets stranger. He had found nude photos of the wife and tried to extort money from her over the phone. Police traced the calls back to his mother's home in nearby Goshen, Indiana. Now besides two brief reports, there is nothing about Danny in Ada's case file. So whether investigators looked into him at all is anyone's

guess. But those reports got me and Nina thinking about something that has always bothered us and detectives. That sound Ada heard in her home the day she went missing when her niece Susan was visiting. Like a thud, like if you ran into the wall. That's what her niece Susan was visiting. Like a thud. Like if you ran into the wall. That's what it sounded like to me. I can't stop wondering. Was someone already in Ada's house?

Were they lying in wait for her? Maybe they were there to take something and got caught off guard when Ada and Susan returned. Maybe they fumbled and knocked something over while they were inside or when they were hiding or trying to leave. So for all those reasons, this Danny guy definitely stood out to us. Tracking him down wasn't easy though, because real is not his real name.

He was born Danny Ray Arad, and at some point he must have changed his name. But once we connected the dots, we found some interesting details. Records show that Danny was married, but split from his wife sometime between 1983 and 1990. I can't tell exactly when, since we haven't been able to find any divorce documentation,

but we did find the date that they got married. And what are the odds? He and his wife tied the knot in the late 70s on May 8. And then we even found a tenuous link between him and Ada. Danny's stepfather's family owned a septic company, the same one that likely serviced the Herodines' home shortly before Ada went missing. Now, this is not exactly a smoking gun, and we don't have any documentation from police or anywhere else showing that

Danny ever worked there. If they ever existed, they're long gone by now. So maybe he never went near the business. But it's not hard to imagine that his stepdad could have asked the family to throw some work Danny's way. In which case, there would be a slim chance that he and Ada's paths could have crossed. But no one we've spoken to remembers him coming up in the original investigation at all. And unlike the lead that we were at least able to somewhat follow on Gene and Doug, we just hit a straight-up brick wall with Danny. Because in 1990, he was killed with

his own gun during a scuffle with law enforcement. According to articles in the South Bend Tribune, he was intoxicated more than three times the legal limit when he threatened to shoot himself and officers who responded to a disturbance he was causing in a rural field. During the struggle, the gun went off, shooting Danny in the head. One of the officers was injured but survived. Danny's death was ultimately ruled an accident, and the gunshot wound deemed self-inflicted, with no wrongdoing found on the part of police. So while Danny's connection to Ada remains unclear,

this next person's link to her seems a bit more tangible, at least on paper. The mysterious Dean Letterman. In June of 1988, Larry found that name scribbled in Ada's handwriting in the Herodines' phone book, along with an address in Watervilleet, Michigan, about an hour from Elkhart.

Intrigued, back in the day, investigators had tried to track this deemed letterman down. They spoke with locals in Watervilleet, and they were contacting the city's police department. But their search led nowhere. No one recognized the name, and the address? It didn't even exist.

So they never did find him. When we first met with Detective Gizzi, he told us Dean was still a ghost to them today. But our research turned up a couple of potential Deans, both of whom have since died. Although, keep in mind, when I'm telling you all of this, we don't even know if this guy is real, let alone if he's mixed up in all of this. But the first Dean was 21 in May of 1985. Later that same year, in November,

this Dean pled guilty to a felony charge of selling weed and received a four-year prison sentence. As part of his plea deal, charges of criminal mischief and receiving stolen property were dropped. He later became a habitual DWI offender, but never had any violent crimes on his record. He also lived pretty far from Ada, about five hours away. So I don't know how he would have come into her orbit.

Although he was apparently a woodworker, and the Herodines were deep into home renovation projects at the time. But I think the second dean is more interesting. He lived somewhat closer to Ada, about two and a half hours away. He was 32 at the time and like other dean,

had no record of violent crimes, just alcohol-related convictions. But an article I found about him in a local paper from 1979 caught my eye. This Dean was charged with public intoxication after he allegedly tried to enter a doctor's house late at night while the doctor and his family were home. The doctor got his gun and fired warning shots, one of which ricocheted and hit Dean in the foot. I imagine there's a ton of context around that story that we just don't have, but it was interesting to come across. Another interesting tidbit was that he worked in construction, which made me wonder if there

could be some connection there. But also not something I was able to follow. So our next move was to try and see if we could cross a guy named James off the list. Now we've mentioned a James before, like way early in this series, but this is a different James. And this James didn't come up until after Ada's remains were discovered.

It was actually Connie, the Dye's former housekeeper who brought this guy up. And remember, she's the same woman who apparently pointed investigators towards Steve. But Connie had also told Detective Gizzi that she thought James was odd. And she was suspicious of him because his family knew the Dice. In fact, it was James's mother, who we're gonna call Maura, she was the one who got Connie the housekeeping job in the first place. Plus, James was very familiar with the area where Ada was found because he used to live just down the road from it, about a third of a mile away. Although, he and his parents had moved to Elkhart

before Ada went missing. Now, when another Cass County detective caught wind of this tip, it actually got his attention way back in 88. Because he remembered that back in the late 70s or early 80s, James had been accused of trying to sexually assault a young woman that he worked with at a local gas station. As far as we can tell, based on police records, the story went that James had been making unwanted advances during their shift and things escalated when she drove him home. He allegedly groped her and tore her shirt before she managed to get away from him.

Now, this incident never actually made it to law enforcement because the woman never reported it. Instead, her father took matters into his own hands and confronted James' mother, Maura, about it. So it's not clear how the detective even got word of it, but it had stuck with him. So he brings this up to detectives. They decide to dig a little deeper into James,

and they do this by speaking with school officials and a former employer. And the general consensus was that James was a loner, an average student who was often absent, especially after a serious motorcycle accident when he was a teen. And he seemed down at times, possibly because of a rough patch in his parents' marriage.

And speaking of his parents, Maura had a bit of a interesting reputation herself. People describe her as very religious and quote unquote radical when it came to her son. When she was confronted by the girl's father after the alleged attack, Mora flat out refused to believe he had done anything wrong. And she had done the same thing when James was implicated in a series of break-ins at various Cass County-based businesses.

That is, until he confessed and police recovered a bunch of stolen property from their house. Given her history of denial and protecting her son, until he confessed and police recovered a bunch of stolen property from their house. Given her history of denial and protecting her son, investigators were curious to see how Mora would react to questions about a homicide. When they spoke with her, Mora said that she knew Ray died through professional circles, and she had recommended Connie as a housekeeper because Ray told her she needed one. And Mora knew Connie did that type of work. But as for Ada, Maura said she had never met her.

All the intel she had about the situation came from Ray, who had mentioned that her husband Tony and their younger son, Steve's half-brother, talked to Ada just before she went missing. And later, Ray relayed that she was helping Ada's husband Ed by taking his son Jeff Jeff, school shopping. Maura also had some insight into Ray's personal life. She was aware that Ray and Tony's marriage was falling apart because of Tony's infidelity.

But she insisted that their families didn't socialize. She didn't think James even knew Ray, let alone the rest of the dies. When detectives spoke with James a day later, he said the same thing as his mom. He only knew of Ray through Maura, and he had no clue about any housecleaning arrangements that she helped facilitate for the dyes. He admitted that he was well acquainted with Birch Road, near where Ada was found.

He had lived nearby for almost two decades, even gone parking on the very switchback that she was found near, which he described as a local lover's lane. He even remembered visiting the area a few days after Ada's body was found, prompted by a friend who told him about the police activity. He said he knew of some sketchy people that lived around those woods, but he didn't think that anyone truly familiar with the area would have left a body there, since there was a big swamp right around the corner that he said would make a much better

hiding spot. So he speculated that the killer stopped around the woods with the intention of having sex with Ada, but then something went awry. I can't quite tell you what police took away from that interview. It doesn't translate in the reports, because I hear all of that and think, okay, let's keep digging. But it seems like this is where their work on James just stopped.

Even though he agreed to take a polygraph, it doesn't look like they ever gave him one. And although he is still mentioned as a potential suspect in later reports, we couldn't find anything tying him to the Herodines or even the dyes, except for his mom's acquaintance with Ray. But like so many others, we'd like to question, we can't ask James. He died in 2018.

We tried contacting his mother, who as far as we can tell is still alive, and we tried his wife, but we weren't able to reach them by the time of this recording. And while we waited to see if we'd hear from them, I was eager to get to another lead, one that actually felt like it was warming up, one that even got Detective Dave Gizzi's attention. Early days in the investigation, we're talking May of 1985, right around the time Ada goes missing, a name came up.

Robert Handshoe, aka Sonny, or just Bob for short. Less than a week after Ada went missing, a woman called Elkhart PD to put Bob on their radar. She told them that he had worked at a local camp with her daughter, and that he was a child molester who was wanted for manslaughter in another state. Now, his name was spelled totally wrong in the initial police reports, and it doesn't seem like they looked into him back then. But once Ada's remains were found, there was some renewed interest in Bob.

Because that camp that he'd worked at, Camp Bellowood, was just a few minutes away from the wooded hill where Ada was found. It's actually where the mushroom hunters, David and Rhonda, went to call police after they found her bones. And there was a connection between Ada and Camp Bellowood. She used to take Jeff horseback riding there. It's not clear if their paths ever crossed, but the proximity and the timing were enough to put Handshrew on the radar.

Camp staff told investigators that Bob began working there just a couple of weeks before Ada went missing. He had met the owner of the camp while bartending. At the time, he and his wife were staying in a motel in Elkhart, and the owner offered him a job when he learned that Bob was familiar with horses. Once he got the camp job, they moved into a cabin on the grounds. But he'd been caught stealing from the camp for the second time in July of 1986, and then he took off. He left behind various IDs with at least two names, both of which were wrong. Robert H. Hanshaw and Bob Henshaw, along with a fake social security number. And he left behind

his wife, although she did eventually go join him. And that whole manslaughter thing? That's actually true. Back in 1978, when he was in Arizona, Bob killed a guy named Lloyd William Keith, who was apparently a friend of his. According to a statement Bob later gave police, the two of them were out shooting guns, and Bob was reloading when he heard a shot fired. He said he thought William was shooting at him, so without thinking Bob turned and shot him in the chest. He said he panicked, left him there, and high-tailed it back to his home state of Illinois. According to the Gibson City Courier, when he was arrested on other outstanding

warrants for theft and burglary, police in Illinois realized that he was wanted in Arizona and he was extradited back. He was initially charged with murder, but he later pled guilty to voluntary manslaughter with a gun. Under the terms of his plea deal, he got seven years in prison, which he was allowed to serve back in Illinois,

while simultaneously serving time for burglary. Although I don't think the crimes are related. But those weren't the only things on his record. His rap sheet was a mile long and stretched back to 1959. Bob had been arrested and or convicted on everything from rape to assault and battery with intent to commit rape, to statutory rape, to kidnapping, multiple times. Plus, grand theft auto charges and parole violations all across at least four states,

including Indiana, which he seemed to spend a good deal of time in. So this guy was all over the map. And as for the child molester allegation, And as for the child molester allegation, it turns out that Bob, who was 42 at the time, had fathered a child by a 15-year-old co-worker at Camp Belleau Wood. And when detectives learned who that girl was, they were stunned. The mother of Bob Handschuh's child was Rhonda's little sister, Rhonda, who found Ada's skull. And listen, it has always bothered me how they found Ada after years of no one else being able to. I mean, it was Rhonda's first time mushroom hunting after all, and she was the one who spotted it.

Now, it is more reasonable when you're actually out there in the dense woods to understand how Ada went undiscovered for so long. If mushroom hunters were going incredibly slow, it would make sense that they would see something others had missed. So yes, maybe it was all happenstance, but what if it wasn't?

Police must have thought the same thing because they brought Rhonda in for another interview and asked her point blank, did someone tell her where to find Ada? Someone like Bob. But Rhonda's answer was an emphatic no. She said she couldn't stand Bob and didn't want anything to do with him.

She had let him and her sister live with her while her sister was pregnant, but he didn't help out. He just hung around bars and spent her sister's money. Eventually, she kicked him out and hadn't talked to him since. She said if Bob had confided in her about a body, she would have turned him in immediately. And investigators believed her. But they were still interested in Bob, who by this point was back in prison for forgery. Detectives looked through a camp-owned car that he had used

and briefly stolen when he worked there, but nothing suspicious jumped out at them. And they tried to find out more about other inmates he was housed with at the county jail he was in before he was transferred to an Indiana prison for the recent forgery conviction. But officials at the jail said he was in before he was transferred to an Indiana prison for the recent forgery conviction. But officials at the jail said that they'd need specific names to track down.

Bob had been held in like a dorm-style setting as opposed to a more traditional two-person cell. And they didn't even know who he had called while he was there since they didn't keep phone logs. Investigators did manage to get his jail visitor records, and they learned that one of the only people to make a trip to see him was his wife, who was not the 15-year-old he had a kid with, by the way.

This woman knew about some of his various charges and the fact that he had gotten a teenager pregnant, but she told them she didn't think he was capable of killing Ada. Neither did Rhonda's little sister, who detectives also interviewed. But when they revisited the woman who initially called in about him back in 1985

and spoke with her daughter Kelly, who actually worked with Bob at the camp, they got a much different perspective. Kelly stated that she saw the suspect on numerous occasions, place his hands on some of the young girls that were riding horses, where she thought they did not belong. She also remembers that one time,

the suspect threatened her with a pitchfork. Kelly advised that the suspect would leave his work area either on horseback or a four-wheeler from time to time and go back along the trails. He told her that he was cutting down little trees along the trails. She said that she never saw any signs of trees cut. Detective Gizzi says that Camp Bella Woods trails

used to stretch right up to Birch Road. And the area was so rural that anyone on a bike or ATV could easily roam across properties if there was an offense or something blocking them. So if Bob was out there riding around, it wouldn't have been difficult for him to become familiar with the spot where Ada's remains were discovered. And get this, Kelly also recalls that a few of the other employees, herself and the suspect, were talking about the missing woman in Elkhart and that Handshrew said, quote, she probably got what she deserved. There's no indication that Bob knew Ada. So what did that mean?

She got what she deserved? There was a link missing. For the longest time, our best assumption was that maybe Ada had taken Jeff there and she crossed paths with him, maybe. But it felt like a bit of a stretch because the only thing we have in the case file says that Ada took Jeff riding there the summer before in 1984. Bob wasn't working at the camp then. So maybe they went. says that Ada took Jeff riding there the summer before, in 1984. Bob wasn't working at the camp then.

So maybe they went. Maybe. But then we found one maybe that really interested us. Do you remember Paul? We talked about him in an earlier episode. Like way earlier. He was the guy who sued Ed Heredine after a car accident in 1984. Well, Ed told police he heard that Paul had been at a local bar, the Simonton Lake Tavern,

and he'd been bragging that the crash was going to make him rich because Ed was loaded. Well, guess who worked at that very tavern around the time Paul filed that lawsuit? Bob and his wife. Now, keep in mind, the information on Paul bragging is like third hand, so we don't even know if it really happened, let alone if Bob was working there when it supposedly happened. Bob's wife told police that she didn't know Paul, and she wasn't sure if Bob did. Still, it's a pretty big coincidence. And taken together, we're looking at some seriously damning stuff. But there is no record, at least none that we have, of them interviewing Bob in prison,

even though his wife told them that Bob was willing to speak with them. And of course, it's too late now. In 1991, when Bob was 47, he was murdered during a robbery at an Illinois gas station that he worked at. Jamie Jackson, who was just 17 at the time, was ultimately convicted of the crime. According to the Times of Northwest Indiana reporter Peter Routman, the judge called the killing the most brutal he had ever seen.

Bob Skoll was crushed with a carbon dioxide tank and his brains were, quote, splattered from the floor six feet up the wall, end quote. Jamie, who maintained his innocence, was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. But he was eventually released in 2021. And speaking of Paul, he didn't come up again as a potential suspect

in Ada's homicide investigation. That's not really surprising to me. Police never seemed to focus on him, even though his name was one of the first that they were given to check out. But when we did our own digging, we learned that Paul lived in Union, Michigan, just five minutes from where Ada's remains were found. By the time that location became relevant, detectives couldn't have interviewed Paul

even if they wanted to. Because he died a few months before Ada was discovered. But there is no indication that they wanted to. I'm not sure if they were even aware of his death. With all these missed connections and overlooked details, you might think that this case was just gathering dust on a shelf somewhere. But throughout everything,

there was someone pushing to keep it active. Detective Gizzi. Ed's sister, Betty Saarhat, says that his dedication meant a lot to their family. He took it very, very personal. I know that. And he came up here years and years and years later when he said they were going to, the police department was going to look into it again. But again, nothing came of it.

Cass County has faced a lot of the same struggles we've seen in departments across the country. Underfunding, under staffing, there's no cold case unit. In fact, when Detective Gizzi retired, there were no more detectives. Like, at all. So while we come in and talk about everything that woulda, coulda, shoulda been done, that's in a perfect world. We aren't in a perfect world. But we should still talk about ways to make it better. And what can be done now. And for us, of all these loose ends, there was one we felt the most could be done on. Something no one has been able to explain to us is how and why investigators cleared

Terry. been able to explain to us is how and why investigators cleared Terry, the man they deemed the sole suspect during two of the three years Ada was missing. In fact, we're not sure if he ever was formally cleared or if they simply lost interest in him after he passed a polygraph. The couple of reports that mentioned Terry post-homicide investigation leave a lot to be desired. reports that mention Terry post-homicide investigation leave a lot to be desired. Now we know law enforcement spoke with him again

after Ada's remains were found, but this time Terry dialed his story way down compared to past interviews. He again mentioned his vague suspicions about a man from the YMCA and the fact that a radiant looking Ada hurt his feelings with a rude comment about his hearing last time he saw her. But now, he claimed he'd only seen her a handful of times over the past few years,

always at his lawn care business or the Y, which was a far cry from earlier versions where he would spend hours at her house while she was home alone. She was his shoulder to cry on through a divorce, and him her closest friend and confidant. He also backtracked on previous implications, expressing regret about suggesting Ed might not be Jeff's biological father. And when asked about the possibility of Ada having an affair, Terry dismissed it, saying it was very unlikely, she just wasn't that type of person. But did police push him on his wildly inconsistent statements, all of which had been well documented over the years?

Did they press him for an alibi, which had never been supplied? Did they even ask him if he was familiar with Burch Road in Michigan? It doesn't look like it based on the records we have. And if that polygraph was the only reason Terry was eliminated, Michigan. It doesn't look like it based on the records we have." And if that polygraph was the only reason Terry was eliminated, I think that's troubling. Especially since the FBI warned about polygraphing him at all, let alone using it as definitive proof of anything. Plus, it seems odd to cross Terry off the list after one polygraph, but not Steve, who

passed two of them. Detective Gizzi couldn't shed much light on this. He said Terry wasn't on his investigative to-do list. I wasn't assigned Terry. Some of the other investigators came back and they just didn't feel that he was involved. Even when police reopened the case a little over a decade ago, they never revisited Terry.

So we did. Because Terry is one of the few people who is still alive in this case. And still living near Elkhart. During a trip to Michigan for the anniversary of Ada's disappearance, our reporter Nina stopped by his house a few times. He wasn't home, so she left a note on his door with her contact information, hoping that he would reach out. And he did. When Terry called her, he seemed somewhat open to talking,

especially after we mentioned that Ada's family had initially reached out to us. But he was on the fence. If it's the Herodines that are seeking the information, I'd be glad to supply it. But, like I said, it's a sensitive thing. Of course, of course. And I certainly wouldn't want to upset any of them or do anything they wouldn't be like. They wouldn't like. I'll talk to you, but I, you know, I have reservations.

Sure, sure, I understand. Um, when you say you want to get to the bottom of it, I don't know there is any getting to the bottom of it. There might not be, but all we can do is try. And you'd have to find out who did it to get that information. And I don't think they ever found they even have a clue on that. Obviously, it's still unsolved. But again, all we can do is try. Well, I think it's wasted effort. Since Terry was reluctant, we offered to have Ed and Ada's older son Greg reach out to him and reassure him.

If you do that, if they ask me to talk to you, why, I would do it. So that's just what we did. Greg called Terry a few minutes after he and Nina hung up. But Terry still wasn't on board. Greg told me that you guys spoke. We did. I didn't get a good vibe from Greg. Greg said that he was in favor of me talking to you. I don't know that I am

You don't know that you are Excuse me. You don't know that you are what I Don't know that I are Interested in talking to you. Oh, why is that? I thought that if the if it was okay with them that you would I Don't want to say anything that's gonna hurt any of Ed's and Aidan's kids. It won't hurt them. They're the ones, again, they're the ones who wanted us to... Oh, you don't know that. So thank you for calling. I don't think I'm interested. Greg called him again and told him how disappointed he was to hear that Terry wouldn't speak with us.

That seemed to strike a chord, and Terry agreed to reconsider, but when he called Nina back, he told her he was only willing to answer written questions. So we sent him a list via email. In his brief response, Terry was cautious. He mentioned that he wasn't sure what information we already had access to, and he speculated that the perpetrator might have been someone Ada knew from the YMCA. But he was quick to clarify that he never saw her there with anyone, and he said he was just taking a shot in the dark, basically grasping at straws like everyone else. And when we pressed him for more details, like about the discrepancies between his account

and Ed's regarding his relationship with the Herodines, Terry suggested that he might have just misread Ed's friendship. But he insisted that his feelings for the family remained unchanged. And then he shut down the conversation, saying that email would be his last communication with us. So that was it from Terry. And our interactions with him definitely raised more questions than answers. At least for us. But at this point, law enforcement would need to talk to him.

And honestly, knowing everything we know about Terry, I think they would fare much better than two gals. But I doubt anyone official will be knocking on his door anytime soon. Because for investigators, Terry has been old news for a long time. And especially because they still have so many suspicions about Steve. Although Detective Gizzi says they did remain vigilant about exploring other possibilities. We hear something about a homicide close by that was similar to Ada's or something. We would look into it. So there was always, you're always open-minded about the suspects.

I try to keep the family included and it'll go meet with them. You can't tell them everything because you know that word's going to get out." Over time, word did get out though. Steve's alleged involvement is common knowledge in the area. Some people say they heard it directly from Elkhart officers, who reportedly said that authorities thought Steve was the perpetrator. They just couldn't prove it. And while rumors about Steve circulated through the community for years, we wanted to get a closer look at where it all began. Nina had the chance to visit the Herodines' home during one of her reporting trips. She and Detective Gizzi did a sort of stakeout in the neighborhood on the anniversary of Ada's disappearance, and the man who lives there now, Wesley, was kind enough to let

them kind of poke around the property. Being there on May 8th, 2024, exactly 39 years to the hour since Ada went missing, was surreal. The weather conditions were almost identical to that fateful day. Sunny and warm. A beautiful spring afternoon that seemed at odds with the tragedy that had taken place. And walking the same path Ada took that day. spring afternoon that seemed at odds with the tragedy that had taken place. And walking the same path Ada took that day, literally retracing her steps and seeing where everything unfolded, it did help explain to some extent why police were so persistent in their suspicion of Steve.

The dies old house is so close to the Herodines. And again, by Steve's own account, he was right there. He was on the lanai in the back of the house studying for this real estate exam. So obviously he was close, but he indicated he didn't see anything out of the ordinary. Just seeing her working in the back yard. And he was only 50 feet away from their driveway. 50 feet. From where Steve told police he was sitting, on the Lanai, which is basically like an enclosed porch,

he would have had a direct line of sight to the Herodines' back and side yard. And the same setup that made Steve look so darn suspicious is the exact reason why a lot of other potential culprits don't quite fit the bill. Take Danny Reel, for instance. On paper, he's suspect material all day long. You can almost imagine it, right? Maybe that weird noise Ada and Susan heard

was Danny creeping around upstairs. Ada stumbles upon him and bam, he panics, knocks her out cold. But then what? He can't exactly sling her over his shoulder and stroll down the street whistling. He'd need a getaway car. But unless he parked in the Herodines' garage,

which has direct access to their house, and I doubt he'd be able to do that, I don't see how he could move her without anyone noticing. Same with our other great suspect, Bob Handschuh. That certainly doesn't mean it's impossible. Maybe Ada's neighbor, Hal Combs, really did see Ada talking to some mysterious stranger that afternoon right before she went missing.

It's just hard to imagine how anyone who wasn't already right there, or had somewhere right there to take her, got away without anyone noticing. It's the elephant in the room that you can't ignore. But beyond location alone, the laser-sharp focus on Steve was something that raised a lot of questions for us. It felt like we're playing a game of Clue but someone's hidden half the cards. I kept wondering if there was something we were missing,

some record forgotten in a box somewhere that brings the whole thing together, an interview that made all the pieces click. Ed certainly felt that Steve was involved, and apparently so did Larry. Here's Ed and Ada's son, Jeff. When he knew there weren't a lot of days left for him, Maybe so did Larry. Here's Ed and Ada's son, Jeff. When he knew there weren't a lot of days left for him, we spoke briefly and he said he could

never prove anything and therefore didn't know. But if he had to place a bet on it, it would have been Steve. So that sticks with me a little bit. I would have considered him a pretty sound judge of when to say things like that, whether it was appropriate to say it. I'm sure he probably thought a lot about having that conversation. He's a very just deep, thoughtful guy like that. So hard not to trust from my perspective that relationship and his involvement and intuition on it. I think even he knows he could have been surprised by something and I would say I'm in the same camp as that.

Of course, Steve's not here to speak for himself. But there are others who did. Steve and his wife had two children, a son and a daughter who are now adults. They had no idea that their dad was a suspect in a homicide until we reached out to them, and they were kind enough to provide us with a written statement, which I am going to read verbatim. We must first express our heartfelt sympathy for the family of Mrs. Heredine. We cannot begin to imagine the pain that her loved ones have endured in

the years since this horrific tragedy. We understand their desire to seek answers to the questions that have haunted them for so long. With our deepest conviction, we truly believe that our father Steve Dye was not involved in this crime. We were born a decade after this tragic event took place, and we only learned of it recently, five years after our parents passed away. Consequently, we cannot claim to know firsthand what occurred in 1985.

However, we do know the character of the man we were so lucky to call dad. Steve was the best father two kids could ever hope for. For the 23 and 24 years we had with him, he was our best friend and our hero. He was gentle, nurturing, selfless, and principled. He raised us in a home filled with love and stability, and he was always present in our lives.

He taught us integrity, values, and morals, and he did so by example. He had a genuine respect for women, teaching and showing us that women are to be cherished, protected, and honored. Steve was also the most adoring, dependable, and devoted husband to our mom. Every day of their lives, he treated her with love and admiration. His most challenging times began when our mom was diagnosed with ALS. She rapidly lost all muscle function, becoming bed bound

and dependent on life support and 24 seven care. For five years until she passed away, our dad was her sole caregiver. He never left her side, choosing to care for her himself with selfless love and devotion. Even when she could no longer speak, move, or open her eyes, he showered her with unending affection as if nothing had changed. As well as providing her medical care, he spent those years rubbing her feet,

painting her nails, and talking to her all day long. He sacrificed everything to stand by her, even ignoring the signs of his own health decline as the years went on. We believe a person's true character is revealed in their darkest times. And during our mom's illness, our dad's admirable character was our unwavering guiding light. Our dad was diagnosed with stage 4 cancer the week after our mom passed away, And he passed away exactly one year later. It has been heartbreaking to learn that our beloved father's name has been connected to this case for so many years.

Especially since he's no longer here to clear his name. Since learning of this story, we've spoken extensively with our surviving family members who were close to our dad at the time. We are heartened by their unanimous agreement. The idea he could have committed such an act is incomprehensible. The notion is completely out of line with the man we knew and loved.

We stand by his innocence and ask that the public approach the situation with open minds, recognizing that speculation does not constitute guilt. Ultimately, we all want the same thing, resolution to the unanswered questions that have haunted so many for so long. We hope that this renewed attention elicits answers that will clear our dad's name and bring much needed peace and closure to the Herodine family." End quote. Steve's father-in-law co-signed that sentiment

about Steve's care of his daughter. In a Facebook post after her death, he credited Steve for the devotion he showed her during her three and a half year illness. He said Steve rarely left her bedside and that his love for her was obvious in everything he did. We also asked Steve's lawyer, Edward Chester, what he thought Steve would say if he was still alive.

I imagine he would say, I'm innocent and I didn't do it. And I don't know who did. And I'm sorry for the hereditons because I know it was a loss to that family. She was a nice lady. As for Tony, his son, who would be Steve's younger half brother, and his wife, who would be Tony's daughter-in-law, she sent us a written statement. Quote, Tony's surviving family believes he is innocent and had no involvement.

We hope the revitalized focus on this case will help uncover the truth and provide closure for all those affected, end quote. They also said via text that while Tony's son knew that everyone was questioned about Ada, he never knew that his dad was considered a suspect. And the same goes for his brother Steve. He doesn't think anyone in his family was involved. And contrary to what Maura remembered Ray saying, he says he didn't see Ada on that last day. There's not much physical evidence in Ada's case.

This one will likely only get solved if the right person comes forward. And I do believe someone out there knows what really happened to Ada. But even if someone does step up to the plate, barring a confession, this case could be very difficult to prosecute. In part, for the same reason that the investigation got as far as it did in the first place, Larry's Sarhat's involvement.

I'm not questioning Larry's expertise. I don't even blame him for getting involved. He wanted to find Ada and felt like he had a lot to offer. And he was right. Throughout our reporting, Detective Gizzi and Ada's family repeatedly emphasized how vital he was to the investigation. I'm sure he's to thank for the FBI's swift response.

I mean, they were on board within days. And his meticulous notes, which his wife, Betty, still had, were a huge help to us. And his son, Mike, told us this. Dad was working 18-hour days. I mean, that's all he did. But despite his devotion and hard work, granting someone full access to an investigation

while their relative is a suspect. I don't think I've ever heard of that before. And it's problematic for a slew of obvious reasons, one of which, in this case, is that no one in Ed's family ever believed he could be responsible for Ada's disappearance. And while it's totally natural for Ed's family to feel that way, disappearance. And while it's totally natural for Ed's family to feel that way, investigators should be impartial. But according to Betty, Larry was never suspicious of Ed either. I'm sure Larry, with his law enforcement background, knows that a lot of times when something happens to a woman, it's her significant other who's involved. Did you folks have any suspicion of your brother at the time?

No, I did not. And Larry did not. With, you know, 20 plus years with the Bureau, that he could separate that and let the case go where it went. Even if Larry did separate it, even if he did everything by the book. His involvement could still undermine the integrity of the investigation. And it's wild to me that no one across multiple local, state, and federal agencies raise an alarm about this, at least not officially.

If anyone took issue with it, there's no documentation to suggest that. We spoke about the situation with Marshall Jones, the consultant I mentioned in an earlier episode, who is an expert in law enforcement policies and procedures. I can understand why a family member who's passionate, who has a law enforcement background, will want to help where they can. That's one thing, but being involved with that investigation,

it's just an error in thinking the whole process through. Wearing the two hats or that dual roll, it always puts you in a bad spot. A lot of this stuff is managing the perceptions and expectations, right? If you did have a suspect, well, I give a defense attorney a thread to pull on to say, well, wait a minute, you looked at my guy, but one of your investigative team is the brother-in-law of the victim's husband. You could see even a halfway decent defense attorney generating reasonable doubt with that.

But Cass County prosecuting attorney, Victor Fitz, said that regardless of who's investigating, the facts of the case speak for themselves. Every witness has some amount of bias, you know, and some of it's a lot, some of it's minimal, but that's just part of the mix. Every witness does, but not every investigator is to where it's so...

Yeah, and certainly, but facts are facts, and that's just one individual, and I'm not gonna charge a case just because a detective And certainly, but facts are facts, and that's just one individual. And I'm not going to charge a case just because a detective or an investigator passionately believes that it's this person. You got to show me the money. You got to prove the case to me. If they can prove to me and I'm confident the case is there, I'll charge it and then

I'll have to explain to the jury why this was a strength and a weakness. That being said, the odds of this case going to trial are slim. Beyond the challenges we've already discussed, time has taken its toll. Many key players, potential suspects, investigators and witnesses alike are no longer living. I think there's a sweet spot for cold cases. One where it's been long enough that people's loyalties might change or they get tired of holding onto secrets.

10, maybe 20 years. But when you start hitting 30, 40, so many who have the answers, even the small ones that might mean nothing, are gone. And you're left scrambling, moving up and down and sideways trying to find people who might know more. So where does that leave us now? Nearly four decades after Ada was last seen alive. Well, her family didn't reach out to us expecting an arrest or a conviction.

Sure, that would be great. But what they really want is the same thing that Darlene Hulse's family wants, answers, who did this and why? With all the uncertainties in this story, I'm sure about some things. Like that Ada would have been overjoyed to see her family tree flourish as her two sons married and had children, some of whom now have kids of their own.

Most everyone lives near each other and they spend a lot of time with one another. It's a legacy of togetherness that Ada would have loved to be a part of. And I really think a lot of reasons why we're all so close now is because of what happened to Ada. And while the circumstances of Ada's disappearance have dominated the narrative, it's important to remember the woman at the center of it.

Those who knew Ada painted a picture of a warm, appreciative person shaped by her experiences. She was an immigrant. I think that plays into a little bit of who she was. She was always grateful for everything, every opportunity, the people in her lives. I think she cared deeply about family. I think she really kind of valued the fabric and the knit of a good family. She was certainly connected with both my brother and I. She was just always there. The homemaker, it was a welcoming house. It was just kind of a good Midwest upbringing

with people there a lot and connected to the family. I feel grateful for it and that's how I remember her. The loss of Ada has left a hole that stretches across generations. Her older son Greg sees this gap clearly when he thinks about his own children growing up. Especially because his wife Cindy's father also passed away when the kids were young. Losing her dad, losing my mom, and then losing my dad. My kids are all I ever had one grandparent. It's kind of hard for me to understand because I had all my grandparents, at least three

of them that I was close to. And that was a big part of my life, having that relationship. And they've never had that other than Cindy's mom. Someone took a lot away from this family. And I can feel it even in those grandchildren who never got to meet their grandmother. The same grandchildren who cared enough to contact us. You don't always get nice and tidy endings in real life. Closure is elusive and sometimes misunderstood.

I don't think closure is moving on or a feeling of finality. I know so many people don't even like that word. But for me, closure is being able to close some doors, so you don't have to imagine every possibility all of the time. Right now for Ada's family, every possibility is still on the table. But most everyone, including former Elkhart chief Tom Cutler, believes Ada knew her killer. Her body was way too far away. It was obviously hidden on purpose.

That was the speculation that they didn't want her body found. So if it's a stranger violator, they don't care if you find her. They can't be tied to the body anyway. If it's somebody that knows her, then they don't want to be tied to the body. So that's an important detail. So a hilltop in lower Michigan is a big deal all of a sudden. Standing at the bottom of that hilltop with Detective Gizzi, looking up into the woods where Ada's remains were found, you can't help but run through the possibilities of what might have happened in her final moments.

What happened here? Did she bail out here and run up the hill? Did she bail out at the top and run down the hill and came into that pathway and tried to head down that way? I mean, you can speculate all day about what happened, but obviously as an investigator, you try to make one of those things make sense. Which one makes sense to you? I think.

I think they were at the top of the switchback. I think it were at the top of the switchback. I think it's possible that's where she bailed out and she ran down that dirt road and started down the hill and was caught and killed. Others believe it's more likely that Ada was killed somewhere else. Probably not killed there. You don't think so?

I don't think so. I think she was moved there. I don't think so? I don't think so. I think she was moved there. I suppose she could have been alive, but it makes much more sense to move her dead body there and put it on a hill. It didn't make any sense for me to have somebody transport her there while she was still able to escape. The fact that she wasn't wearing any clothes when she was found suggests a sexual motive.

Although, an interesting possibility came up during Nina's interview with Tom. Way back in episode 1, I told you guys that when Ada's niece Susan left the Heredines that day, Ada still had on the skirt and sweater that she had worn to the YMCA luncheon. But she planned to change and do some yard work. Her dressy outfit was found neatly put away, and when police first got to the hair dynes that night, the shower and sink in the bathroom of Ada and Ed's bedroom were wet. Now, Ed told them he had showered at the gym, so

it had to have been Ada who used it. And it wouldn't make sense for her to change out of her nice outfit, then shower, then get messy doing yard work. It's more logical that she washed up after doing yard work. So what if someone grabbed her right out of the shower, and that's why she had no clothes on? Tom said he thinks that their crime scene texts removed the drain to look for blood. But if that's true, there's no report of it.

And even if they did examine it, there wouldn't necessarily be any blood if someone just snatched her up or incapacitated her. See what I mean? Every possibility. Though I still stand by what I said at the top of this series. I don't think Ada's case is connected to Darlene's, but nothing is impossible. One of the reasons the Sheila letters didn't totally add up

for me was because the BH in her letters stood for Barbara Hulley. Barbara was killed in her home on September 21st, 1984 in Syracuse, Indiana. And if you just Google her case, newspaper articles will tell you it's solved. After a long investigation, someone confessed, went to prison, served a lengthy sentence,

and has since been released. But if you go a layer deeper, it might not be as straightforward. It's something I'm looking into, but I'm really getting blocked on my records request, which feels strange for a case that has been fully adjudicated, doesn't it? I can never fully walk away from these stories. The end of a series is never the end. We still get tips about Darlene's case that we follow up on and

pass along to Nelson Chipman, who is still at the helm of the Marshall County Prosecutor's Office. And we will continue to dig into Ada's case. And hopefully, much like last season, we'll be back soon with some updates. Because the best thing that can happen now is getting this out into the world, to get people talking before we run out of time. I do appreciate agencies such as yours that pursue these things because we are pulled

in so many different directions in law enforcement and I think this has been a good refresher for us in that, hey, let's take another look at this for the family. It's already working. As we were finishing up this series, police got a new tip, the first one in ages. Whether something will come of it, only time will tell. And Gizzi is still working the case, despite his retirement. So if you have any information about the murder of Ada Heredine,

or any of the suspects that we've gone over or ones we haven't, please contact the Michiana Crime Stoppers. All tips sent to Crime Stoppers will be anonymous. Whether you give them your information or not, they come to law enforcement anonymously. Keep that in mind. you will not get follow-up. You can reach them at 574-288-STOP or 800-342-STOP. If you want your information to be known, you should reach out directly to the Cass County Sheriff's Office by calling their main line, 269-445-1560. We'll have additional contact information in the show notes for this episode. The Deck Investigates is an AudioChuck production with theme music by Ryan Lewis. To learn more about The Deck or The Deck Investigates and our advocacy work, visit thedecpodcast.com.

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