The Deck - Anne Paetz (7 of Clubs, Michigan)

Episode Date: October 16, 2024

Our card this week is Anne Paetz, the 7 of Clubs from Michigan. When 23-year-old Anne Paetz went out for cigarettes after midnight on July 2nd, 1999, no one in her family thought much of it. But while out, she crossed paths with the wrong person, and never made it back home. The next morning, Anne was found dead on the side of the highway. Nearly 25 years later, her family is still desperate for answers.If you know anything about the 1999 murder of Anne Paetz in Michigan, or if you have any information regarding possible criminal activity relating to Jack Duane Hall, you can anonymously report information to Crime Stoppers of Flint & Genesee County at 1-800-422-5245 or on their website www.Crime StoppersofFlint.com.If you don’t mind revealing your identity and want to speak to a detective directly you can email [e-mail] to get in touch. View source material and photos for this episode at: https://thedeckpodcast.com/anne-paetz/ Let us deal you in… follow The Deck on social media.Instagram: @thedeckpodcast | @audiochuckTwitter: @thedeckpodcast_ | @audiochuckFacebook: /TheDeckPodcast | /audiochuckllcTo support Season of Justice and learn more, please visit seasonofjustice.org. The Deck is hosted by Ashley Flowers. Instagram: @ashleyflowersTikTok: @ashleyflowerscrimejunkieTwitter: @Ash_FlowersFacebook: /AshleyFlowers.AF Text Ashley at 317-733-7485 to talk all things true crime, get behind the scenes updates, and more!

Our card this week is Ann Pates, the 7 of clubs for Michigan. In the summer of 99, Ann was in the prime of her life. A recent college student now living at home, she was young, high energy, and carefree. It was normal for her to leave the house late at night and then come back even later. So on July 2nd, when Ann went out to grab a pack of cigarettes well after midnight, no one in her family thought much of it. But they had no way of knowing that it would be the last time any of them saw her alive.

I'm Ashley Flowers, and this is the deck. The sun was barely starting to rise on July 2, 1999, when mother of four, Janet Pates, was woken up suddenly by her phone ringing. She was confused to be getting a call so early, but that confusion gave way to concern when she realized that on the other end of the line was a police officer. He was asking her to come collect her tan 1995 Ford Contour that had been abandoned on the side of the highway in Genesee County. Now, this was puzzling to Janet because she hadn't taken her car out the previous night, and she certainly hadn't abandoned it on the side of the highway in a county 20 minutes

away from her Saginaw, Michigan home. But the car that the officer described was hers. Same model, same plate. So with a bad feeling in her stomach, Janet agreed to go pick it up. But she obviously couldn't get the car alone, she needed someone to drive it back with her. So she went to wake up one of her kids to go with her. And that's when she realized that her 23-year-old daughter, Ann, wasn't in her room. Actually, Ann wasn't home at all.

Ma came into my bedroom and she's like, you gotta come with me, something's wrong. I said, all right, what do you mean? She's like, Anne never came home last night. That's Anne's brother Jason. He said he could tell his mom was nervous that morning and he knew the situation was a bit strange, but honestly, he didn't think that much of it. Anne was an adult. She was often out doing her own thing and she didn't always tell her family exactly where she was. Here's Jason again talking

with his sister Laura. Annie knew how to have great fun, you know. She liked to have fun and, uh, She liked to party. She just had a free spirit. Jason also knew that even though Anne's car was at home, she was having trouble with it the day before, so he figured that she probably borrowed their mom's car to run to the store or maybe visit her boyfriend who lived a few towns over. In fact, it sounded like the car was actually parked just outside of the trailer park

where Ann's boyfriend lived on Vienna Road. Borrowing mom's car was normal, but she had to get to work in the morning. So for the car to still not be there in the morning, like, that's absolutely unacceptable. Like how's Ma gonna get to work? Jason and Janet met police on the side of the highway at around 6 a.m. Police explained to them that they'd found the empty car parked in an acceleration lane. It was off, but the doors were unlocked and the key was still in the ignition. So police actually had gotten into the car, started it up and moved it off the road

so it wouldn't cause a hazard. Officers also said that the driver's side window was rolled halfway down and there was a small dent in the back quarter panel, which Janet said wasn't there the day before. None of this information was doing anything to reassure Janet. She still had thoughts about Ann racing

in the back of her mind, but for one reason or another, she didn't think to bring it up with the officers just yet. She was probably trying to reassure herself that she was just overthinking this, like her Ann had to be just fine. Here's Michigan State Police Detective Detective Sergeant Bill Arndt. "...nobody thought at that time when the car was found anything was wrong." Now this part is a little fuzzy for the family to try and recount, but the detectives were

able to fill in some of the blanks based on old reports. So according to what they have, it seems like Janet and Jason took the car and headed home, but not before stopping at a mechanic to check out what they thought might have been a bad tire. Apparently, like Ann's car, Janet's car had been having issues too, so they probably figured why not just take care of it while it was fresh on the mind. The issue they thought they had with the tire actually ended up being mechanical, so they left the car at the shop and then made it home at around 7.45 in the morning. Now we can't be sure, but we can assume Janet likely got ready and headed to work, hoping that Ann would show up later and explain the whole car debacle.

And about that same time, a woman named Karen was heading out for her morning jog on none other than Vienna Road. Everything was going as usual for her until Karen passed by what she thought, or perhaps hoped was a mannequin lying face down in the grass. But my crime junkies listening know it's never a mannequin. Now Karen wasn't really up for investigating the situation further on her own, but she did find it odd enough to relay the information to her husband when she got home. The husband then drives up to the scene, observes it, realizes that it is a person, and goes to a local residency to have them call 911

to report the body. That's Michigan State Police Detective Sergeant Dave Rivard. Our reporter interviewed him and Detective Sergeant Arnt together, so you'll hear both of their voices throughout this episode. Anyway, about half an hour after the 911 call, police arrived at the scene. And keep in mind, it's only about 10 miles

from where Janet's abandoned car was found earlier that morning. It's not like a rural country road. This is something that receives a lot of traffic 24 hours a day. Just a couple of feet off the road. So, you know, during the daylight hours, it's probably, everyone would see it.

It wasn't like somebody tried to hide the body. They didn't drag it off the road. Somebody very quickly stopped, pushed the body, and it wasn't a ditch. It was simply just off the road. The sight so many people had probably passed by that morning without even knowing was gruesome. They reported that the woman's clothes, and she was fully clothed, were soaked in blood, and it all seemed to be coming from her face and her neck. Her shirt was pulled up ever so slightly, but police said it looked like it could have

come from being dragged onto the grass. Police also found what looked like ligature marks around the woman's wrists. What they didn't find, though, was anything that could help them identify her. She didn't have her driver's license or anything with her, so first responders have a young female with unknown identity, which they now have to research. So it's reported as a Jane Doe. At the same time, you have the parents now calling in a missing person saying, we got a car back, but we're missing our daughter. After Janet had made that call, it didn't take long for police to put two and two together. Our Aunt Sandra was the detective in Saginaw at the time,

and I know she went and identified her for my parents. I remember it was a beautiful day. It was about the perfect summer day. That's one thing I remember, sitting out on the back deck thinking, how can this be such a beautiful day? And this is the worst day of my life. Now police had to do some backtracking.

They needed to process the abandoned car scene for evidence. They also needed to process the car, which they had willingly handed over to Janet just hours earlier. With two separate sites to analyze and a 10-mile stretch of highway to cover, responding detectives realized that they needed to call for some backup. Our agency's quite large, so there were multiple detectives, multiple troops. They canvassed the two blocks that encompassed where her body was found. They went to all the trailers at the local trailer park and all those houses.

Probably 100 different residences that they attempted to contact. So they did quite a bit of work in those initial hours of trying to come up with anything. Right off the bat, they received tons of tips. It turned out several people in the area saw Janet's car parked on the highway that morning. One woman reported that she also saw a separate vehicle, one she described as a blue pickup

truck with cab lights parked behind it. She even thought she might have seen two people standing between the vehicles, but she said she didn't pay much attention, probably not thinking anything was seriously wrong at the time. Another person who lived in the area near where Anne's body was found told detectives that she was woken up by her dogs barking at something like 7.30 in the morning, and when she went to go see what it was, she saw a vehicle driving very slowly down the road. She also described that vehicle as a pickup truck with cab lights, but in her recollection,

it was red and white, not blue. As for Janet's car, it was kind of a bust. When investigators combed through it, they found Anne's wallet and a fresh pack of cigarettes inside, but no ID. In fact, to this day, Anne's ID has never been recovered. And the only unidentified print that they found on the car turned out to belong to the mechanic, the one that Janet confirmed she had taken the car to directly from the scene that morning. The only potential clue that they gathered on the car was from some fresh grass and mud

around the tires, which didn't really add up because the area on the highway that they found it on was completely paved. Actually, the whole way from Saginaw to Genesee County is all paved highway. Detectives also said that there were some partial tire impressions in the road where Anne's body was found, which they looked into. But because it was such a public road,

there wasn't much they could do to definitively connect them to this case. So the next logical step in their investigation became clear. Due to where her body was in the vehicle, it left a lot of unanswered questions right away. So now the investigation begins with trying to figure out where Ann was going, the time frame, why, and what happened to her. According to her siblings, Ann's last day alive was fairly typical.

She went to work at a local car dealership where she was a saleswoman, and everyone close to Ann said she was outgoing, beautiful, and very easy to like, which sounds like a winning formula for a sales job. After work, Ann called her boyfriend, who we'll call John. She wanted to tell him she was having car trouble, but she'd maybe see him later. Then around 9 p.m., she went out to a bar with a friend who we'll call Max.

Newspapers at the time reported that this meetup was a date, but we actually know from our reporting that the pair seemed to be just friends. That night, they drank, they shot some pool, danced, and at 1 a.m., Max dropped Anne back home. That timeline was verified by Anne's brother, Adam, who was up when she got back. The pair spoke for a bit before Anne went to her room, where she made two phone calls to her boyfriend, John. One at 1.27 in the morning and another at 1.33.

He didn't pick up either call. He was apparently busy playing video games and watching movies with a friend. But a few minutes after that second call, Anne came out of her room and told Adam that she was gonna go get some smokes. And those were the last words he'd ever hear her say before Anne drove off in her mom's car. last words he'd ever hear her say before Anne drove off in her mom's car. Investigators did find a fresh pack of cigarettes in Janet's car when they processed it.

So they knew Anne must have picked some up that night, but they didn't know exactly where. So they started canvassing practically every place in between. And they got lucky in two spots, or maybe two spots. So they think they see her at the 7-Eleven close to her house. They also find some video at Conley's, which is a gas station convenience store on 57 and eventually determine that there is also a lookalike there that could be Anne. But again, the video is terrible, so they can't 100% verify that could be Ann. But again, the video is terrible.

So they can't 100% verify that it was her. Those sightings of Ann on video at the two convenience stores are murky. And statements from employees at the stores couldn't confirm that either sighting was definitely Ann. So police were basically forced to move on. And because of the calls that Ann made to John and the location of the abandoned car near his trailer park,

most arrows were pointing directly to him. Of course, he became suspect number one originally, and our detectives went and spoke with him almost immediately once they learned about him. John said he was home all night with his mom, dad, and a friend who could all corroborate his story. He also agreed to sit for a polygraph test. And though that ended up being inconclusive,

because his alibi checked out, he was ruled out fairly quickly. Same for Max, who passed a polygraph and had an alibi that checked out too. So just as quick as the investigation got started, it was feeling like maybe they were going to hit a wall. With John and Max pretty much ruled out, police didn't know who else to look at. Like I mentioned, Anne was a likable person. In her brother's words, nobody hated Anne.

Not a single person. She would just go make friends with everybody, end quote. So investigators turned their attention to the autopsy, which came back the next day. And it actually brought a few important things to light. First, the cause of death was extremely violent. Multiple stab wounds to the head, face, and neck, which led to significant blood loss.

When you get stabbed in the face, it's typically personal. If I stab you in the back, we didn't even know each other, right? But if I stab you in the face, it's typically personal. Secondly, the autopsy revealed that Anne had defensive wounds on her forearms, wrists, and hands.

She also had a BAC of.15 at the time of autopsy, which was almost double the legal driving limit. And for a 5'2", 110-pound fatigued girl like Anne, that indicated that she was likely a bit intoxicated when she was attacked, but clearly not too drunk to fight back. So if she realized that she was in a bad situation, she wasn't just going to submit to it. She most likely put up a fight. Depending on the ultimate motive, that fight could have warded off a potential sexual assault, because the autopsy confirmed what detectives at the scene predicted, that Anne didn't

appear to have been sexually assaulted. Everything she'd been wearing was collected and analyzed, but most of it was saturated in her blood. And I say most, but not all. There was one spot on a ring that Anne was wearing, where her blood was not present, but someone else's was. Now, there were only trace amounts, but it was enough to pull a profile from and enter into CODIS,

which they did immediately. But unfortunately, and unsurprisingly, or we wouldn't be here, they didn't get a hit. Though I will say, I don't think that carries the same heft as it might today. CODIS was only officially implemented a year before Anne's murder. So it wasn't necessarily shocking

that the blood on her ring didn't come up with a match then. On July 6th, four days after Anne's murder, investigators decided to really step things up. Along with putting out a Crimestoppers alert, they assembled a task force with 15 detectives from a bunch of different agencies to look into nearby crimes that could be connected. Ann, they hugely expanded the scope of the investigation. They then started looking at friends and friends and friends and people she met at the bar that night and her past history.

Were there other people that could have become suspects in this crime? They just didn't sit on their heels and this wasn't just something sitting on the shelf. They really did a really concerted effort of locating anybody that had any connection with Anne or any of her friends at all." They even went as far as to track down Ann's high school friends and people she'd recently sold cars to. So as part of the task force, they came up with a tip line and we have a binder with

who knows if this is all of them, but 2,000 tips maybe. I mean, that's all tips and they're probably, I know how detectives are, so they're probably not all in there, but that is all just tips that came in. And so not only are they investigating any evidence or people from the crime scene,

they're also got tips flowing in from all the media attention that it got, and they're running every single one of these tips down. In a weird twist of fate, on the same day that the task force was assembled, another young woman from Saginaw County was forced off a highway at night and sexually assaulted. So given the timing and the location of the incidents,

investigators linked the two cases and began to build a theory about an opportunistic predator who was targeting random women alone on highways at night. And their theory seemed legit when just a few weeks after that, another brutal crime was committed less than 10 miles from where Ann's body was found. It happened in a little city called Clio.

This time, the victims were sisters, only 9 and 13 years old. So he kidnaps them from a bike path, takes them just off the bike path, brutally rapes them, strangles them with their shoelaces until they're unconscious, and then he leaves them for dead. Then one of the girls wakes up, thank God, gets the other one up, and they, of course, start another investigation. Not only did both girls survive that assault, but they were also able to give a fairly detailed description of their attacker, which went out on TV and allowed detectives to zero in on a man who the Detroit Free Press reported at the time as being Jack Hall.

He was a local man that owned a floor resurfacing business and happened to live in the same apartment complex as the sisters. Now I want to make it abundantly clear. Arne and Rivard were not the ones to give us the name Jack Hall. They would only refer to him by a pseudonym of James during our interview. However, based on our research and previous reporting that was done, we were able to figure out that Jack Hall had to be the person they were referring to. So police wanted to track down Jack Hall ASAP. Not only to see if he was responsible for the

brutal attack on those young sisters, but also Ann's murder and that other similar case. But it wasn't going to be that easy. and that other similar case. But it wasn't going to be that easy. When they go knock on the door, they say, hey, we'd like to talk to you regarding your vehicle, because the vehicle had a bad plate on it, or something like that. So he's like, oh, no, something's up.

So instead of talking to the police about a bad plate, he flees, jumps out the window, runs and hides, goes several miles to his parents' house. And then a manhunt ensued. When police finally caught up with Hall later that night, he was hiding out in his parents' attic. And when they approached him there, he actually ended up disarming a deputy, taking her gun, and firing off some shots.

Thankfully, no one was hit, but he was able to get away. And for almost two more days, police had no idea where this guy was. But on that second day, out of the blue, Hall just turned himself in. And what's even weirder is he had cut his hair and shaved like he was trying to change his appearance, which is usually what someone does when they're trying to avoid being caught, not in preparation to turn themselves in. The explanation is that he wanted to look good for the media because they knew they were looking for him, so he cuts his hair and shaves, puts on clean clothes for the

appearance. the media because they knew they were looking for him. So he cuts his hair and shaves, puts on clean clothes for the appearance." When police charged Hall with the attempted murder and sexual assault of the sisters based on their testimony, they took his DNA and put it into CODIS. And lo and behold, there was a match. It wasn't a match for Anne's case, though, or the other Saginaw woman. It was actually DNA taken from a crime committed six years prior when Hall abducted a woman named Heidi as she was leaving work, pulled her into the woods, tied her up, sexually assaulted her, and left her for dead. But little did he know, she survived and was able to tell her story. Now just because Hall's DNA didn't match the trace amounts of DNA on Ann's ring

doesn't mean they were ready to write him off. Especially because they'd been direct comparing everyone in the case to that ring — by this point, like, 70 people — but nothing had popped up. Which made them start to wonder if it really was the killer's DNA at all. which made them start to wonder if it really was the killer's DNA at all. When you read the report, it's like, oh gee, we got the killer's DNA on the ring. And what we've learned is, no, we have a person's DNA. That doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be our killer. Detectives began to theorize that the blood could have come from a first responder who maybe had been cut while moving Ann's body. Or it

could have been there before the incident. But none of that meant that Hall was off the hook. There were too many other consistencies, or maybe you want to call them coincidences. If they were gonna rule him out, it needed to be because they could prove he didn't do it. And this is where the tip comes in that they now realize that he has two vehicles, one being a white Pontiac and the other one being a blue vehicle that matches what a witness said was parked behind her car.

And now the state police are like, wait a minute, there's too many consistencies of could he be responsible? So now he's a target for Ann." So they zeroed in on his vehicles, getting a warrant to search both of Hall's cars, a white Pontiac, and a blue pickup truck. At that point, it had been about a month since Ann's murder, but the idea was, if detectives could find any evidence that Ann had been in his truck at all, they'd have enough to make a case against Hall. But when they brought Hall's truck to the lab, they found out that while the outside of it was

rough and dirty, the inside was immaculately clean, like spotless. Of course, that looked a bit suspicious to detectives, but you can't charge someone for cleaning their car. So they got a warrant to search Hall's home. It's there that they found Heidi's computer and ID, but nothing belonging to Anne, or the Clio girls for that matter. At that point, they didn't feel like there was much else they could do to try and connect Jack Hall to Anne Pates. Nothing except for waiting for a new tip or lead. About a year later, in June of 2000, Jack Hall was convicted and

sentenced to life in prison for the assaults of Heidi and the young girls. According to detectives, Anne's case sort of started to stall out after that. I mean, they were convinced that Hall was responsible, but there just wasn't enough evidence to charge him. Still, even with no new leads, Michigan State Police refused to give up. Quoted in the Battle Creek Inquirer in 2000, Sergeant Mark Reeves, a state detective

from the Flint Post said, quote, "'If anybody is looking over their shoulder, they better continue to do that. We don't stop investigating homicide cases. We don't quit. They've been investigated by people here before me, by me, by the guys who someday will replace me, end quote. And actually, the Michigan State Police have a policy

where if a case is inactive, it still has to be reviewed every six months by detectives, just to make sure nothing ever slips through the cracks. And, like, just putting it out there, could every department please enact that policy? So somebody's always reading it, looking at it, seeing, did somebody miss something? So throughout the years, it wasn't just put on a shelf, it was continuously reviewed to see if anything could be done with technology changing.

Ann's case was reviewed and re-reviewed and re-reviewed again, nearly 50 times over the course of 20 years with no real breakthroughs. But things were about to be taken up a notch because in 2022, nearly 23 years after Ann's murder, the Saginaw District formed an official cold case team with the sole purpose of doubling down on the district's 93 inactive cases.

And they started with Ann's. But I think Bill and I looked at it, we took it on as an approach, we'll just start right from scratch. Interview family, including the victims, do a victim knowledge, do our own, not just rely on what was in the report, but let's do our own and come up with our own conclusion. So I started again, it was like, nobody's a suspect, Let's develop our own. So we literally took the evidence from this case down to our lab, and we had our lab and us go through every piece of evidence. So literally hundreds of man hours to reprocess the evidence of this case.

Reprocessing all of the evidence didn't result in any new DNA, though. They just had that same profile that was still unidentified some 20 years on. So the detectives decided to go interview Jack Hall in prison three times. They said they wanted to try and build some sort of rapport before they asked him about Anne. We went back a third time, and at that that point we were going to confront him with the evidence that we had and see what he said. And that lasted five minutes and he threw us out. Well, he tried to throw us out, but it's a prison so he couldn't really throw us out.

But he didn't want to talk to us anymore. So we haven't been back since. That only made detectives more motivated to dig into Hall. They wanted to start from scratch with him. That meant re-interviewing his neighbors, his family, anyone close to him. And things only got more disturbing from there. First, there were Hall's neighbors who said they found what the detectives referred to as a sexual predator kit in the woods by his property. It was essentially a backpack with handcuffs, restraints, lube, and sex toys. And then there was Hall's brother who let detectives know about Hall's side job as a security guard,

which came with a pseudo law enforcement uniform, including a belt, a baton, and handcuffs. law enforcement uniform, including a belt, a baton, and handcuffs. So you could look like a policeman pretty easy, and he was doing that as well. There were no official reports of Hall pretending to be a police officer. But there were other witness accounts from around the same time Ann was killed where women described some man matching the physical description of Jack Hall, impersonating an officer in an attempt to pull them over at night. Do I need to refer to yet another crime junkie life role? It is okay to keep going and pull over somewhere public where you feel safe if you question the legitimacy of who is trying to pull you over. Not something everyone

could do in the 90s, but if you have a cell phone now, you also have the power to protect yourself from these guys and call 911, make sure it is actually police pulling you over. Anyway, Hall's brother also told detectives that back in the early 90s, when he and Jack were living at their parents' house, the same house that Jack Hall

fled to when police confronted him. He said there was this cubby hole in a little room above the garage where they would stash their weed. As he was looking for the stash, he came across the four IDs, women's driver's license, which he didn't recognize, didn't know what to do because he's younger at that time. He gave them to his mother, and then they disappeared, and then his mother's deceased now, too. So we can't interview to find out what happened to those. If you recall, Ann's ID was never found.

So it seemed very plausible to investigators that one of these licenses could have been hers. But there wasn't really any way to find out. Detectives even went back to that house, which Hall's parents no longer lived in, and searched it to try and find this cubby. But it turned out that the new owners were remodeling and the inside of the house was all torn down.

So once again, the case sort of stalled out. As for Jack Hall now, well, he's currently serving a life sentence at the thumb correctional facility in Michigan for those other crimes that we talked about unrelated to Anne's. And P.S. Our reporter got her hands on some documents that show Hall tried appealing the charges related to the Little Sisters and Heidi, but nothing ever stuck. He is still behind bars. So we tried sending him a letter, asking about his possible involvement in Anne's murder and if he'd be willing to write back and talk to us.

But as of this recording, that hasn't happened. He hasn't responded. Now, given that Hall's brother mentioned finding the IDs of four women, detectives think that there could also be other victims out there, ones that Hall has never officially been connected to. And so these detectives are staying the course.

We've looked at every possible piece of evidence that's available to us today with today's technology to cross-reference to see if we can develop something new. And we've utilized everything that we can. For years, we have tried to get the DNA that was on Anne's ring tested with familial genealogy. We know that that DNA can be sent to an outside lab like Othram, be processed and come back with a genealogy which may be able to get us to a family. However, the DNA that was found on Ann's ring was not a lot of DNA and unfortunately technology at this point

in time doesn't allow us to get genealogy or a good enough sample to then send to Othrum. So Othrum and our lab have advised us we need to wait more time because if we take that sample now, it's done. It will only happen this time and if we don't get anything, there's no more of it. And so David told us that in the future,

when technology becomes better for DNA, that they may be able to process that. So we will wait for that, and eventually that will get processed, but we don't know what that timeline will be. In the meantime, detectives partnered with students in Western Michigan University's cold case program to analyze unfollowed leads, map possible routes Anne took the evening she was killed, and

digitize her entire case file. They're still holding out, though, for someone, something, really anything to rise to the surface. Somebody knows something, right? I would like to think that somebody, whoever the suspect is, told somebody something. And I'd like to think that eventually we'll get a tip and be able to close it for the family.

Ann's family wants that more than anything. Here's her brother Jason again. If something were to come about, I think that would mean the world to my mom and dad and my brother because they are still seeking closure and they can only be found in police work, you know. This still affects us every single day. It will always be there in an underlying way that single day. It will always be there in an underlying way that will affect me still for the rest of my life and if it affects me I know that it affects my

family, how it affects my mom and dad and brother who they're still working through it. It would mean the world to them to have some kind of closure because I've made peace with it but it's taken a lot of work to get there and so to have some kind of closure if you have any kind of information any little bit no matter how small like if you were there at the bar with her that night you might know you may have heard her say something any little thing could be pieced together to help this go in a direction that we don't know that it needs to get taken. So no matter how little, something would be immensely helpful to get some closure.

If you know anything about the 1999 murder of Ann Pates in Michigan, or if you have any information regarding possible criminal activity relating to Jack Duane Hall, you can anonymously report information to Crimestoppers of Flint and Genesee County at 1-800-422-5245 or on their website, which I'll put in the show notes. Now, Crimestoppers keeps everyone anonymous

whether you want to be or not. So if you don't mind revealing your identity or you want to speak directly to a detective and get some follow-up, you can email msp-coldcase at michigan.gov to get in touch with the investigators. Again, all that information will be in the show notes.

The Deck is an AudioChuck production with theme music by Ryan Lewis. To learn more about The Deck and our advocacy work, visit thedeckpodcast.com. So what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve? Woooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo