The Deep 3 Podcast - The Knicks Are Done! Reacting To Game 4 Of The NBA ECF | TD3 Live

Episode Date: May 28, 2025

Today we talk all things NBA conference finals! #nba Support the stream: https://streamlabs.com/thedeep3pod Today we react to all the latest NBA news! Check out the TD3 merch: https://the-deep-3-shop.fourthwall.com/ Join the TD3 discord!: https://discord.gg/RUkjpMPp7E Listen on Spotify!: https://open.spotify.com/show/3elbbqVumwqz8wlIdknsLW Listen on Apple Podcasts!: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-deep-3-podcast/id1657940794 Follow us on TikTok!: https://www.tiktok.com/@thedeepthree Follow us on Instagram!: https://www.instagram.com/thedeep3podcast/ Isaac's twitter: https://twitter.com/byisaacg Muhamed's twitter: https://twitter.com/Mojo99_ Donnavan's twitter: https://twitter.com/Dsmoot3D Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today is a very special day. On the surface, you may click on this video, you may see it on your YouTube feed. You might be here live. You might be watching this on Spotify tomorrow, checking it out, expecting a normal episode of TD3 Live. The episode we do every single Tuesday that, you know, you come to know and expect as part of our schedule. But you may notice this one's late. We're recording this one at 9.59 p.m. Tuesday, May 27th, because we had to wait a few extra hours so we can capture the live react To Donovan, when the New York Knicks go down 3-1 to the Indiana Pacers, the Cinderella run is seemingly honest last legs.

We are here. We might be bringing out the gentleman's brooms. How are we feeling, Donovan? Nixon's seven. Nixon's seven. Okay. I asked you before we started. I said, is this going to be a sadness or a rage type of episode?

Apparently it's a copium type of episode. I wasn't aware. No, I mean, it's 100% on the table. Like, you have, I don't. Obviously, it's not a very possible thing in terms of, like, statistics. But you have two games at home. And really, here's where the actual copium comes into place. And I caught myself even doing it at the end of this game, where they're down by nine.

And I'm like, it's not a nine point deficit. Okay. It's a six point deficit. Because all you have to do is just give yourself an opportunity for a shot at the end of the game. You just got to get it to one possession. That's it. This is not, you don't have to win three games. games in a row. You just got to win two and you get to a game seven and anything's possible

and then game seven is on, is on your home floor. That's all you have to do, right? That's all you have to do. Also, and I don't care. I don't care at all. What you think of me in this moment, I've been saying it from the start of this series. But the gambling fix that is in the call that was made between the third and the fourth quarter was at the first quarter was at as egregious as I've ever seen. There was a 12-second span where the New York Knicks got four foul calls on them. Two of them on Josh Hart, on Benedict Matherin that did not exist at the very end of the game. Pascal Siakum was holding OG Ananoby.

OG got the foul. The stuff that was happening was shameless. It was awful. I think Adam Silver is so forward-thinking and galaxy brain that he's like, I don't want my biggest markets here. I'm trying to grow the game. We need every market to rise up. So I'm putting in the call for in the end.

That's why I was like, why, if you think that the league is rigged, why don't you do it for New York and L.A.? Because Silver's trying to build. He's trying to grow. I see the vision. I see it. But ultimately, ultimately, this game came down to the fact that this team is flawed. I was waiting for it.

I said maybe we should talk about some of my damn basketball. You know what I hear? Despair. You know what I hear? Bullshit. Someone not taking it like a man. That's not here. I hear bullshit.

I will say, well, I will say, the rest of the coach, I'm dead serious about, the referee that happened in the fourth quarter was ridiculous. But this team is flawed. Tibbs is, this is something that Nick's fans have been going back and forth with all years. Like, are we going to go far enough to where Tibbs keeps his job or is this going to be a first round exit to where you can get a new coach in the building? We'll see what happens. And depending on how game five goes and how, like if game five,

ends up being a loss and it is super egregious, then you may be able to get a new coach in the building. We'll see, we'll see what happens at that point. Did you take anything before this stream started? Um, take any in terms of what? Medications. Substances. Substances. There's a chat saying, bro, you had 40 free throws. What the fuck are you talking about? Yeah, exactly, bro. I'm just like, what are we talking about free throws? Okay. So again, and this is where I'm probably going to get upset is that you guys are intentionally being dense. I'll tell you what Chats said. No, I'm telling you, they also can't read or can't hear because what I said was in the

fourth quarter, that is specifically what I said in the fourth quarter. And if you say, oh, you have 40 free throws and all the stuff in the third, first taking the third quarter, they was doing good. And I said that the call was made in between the third and the fourth quarter. Now, if you choose not to listen to that part, then okay, that's on you. You can be a dummy. They're calling you denial done. that's fine you can give me all the nicknames you want i'm telling you what i saw i'm telling you the truth

we got 14 people 100 people in here right now appreciate all y'all as you guys see about the title we're going to react to nix versus pacer's give you the full breakdown of what we saw how donovan's feeling in this moment apparently it's denial we'll keep talking about that after that we'll talk about okay c versus minnesota we'll do our normal stream stuff that's going to be a full regular stream don't mo how what was your biggest takeaway from this why are the nix down 3-1 man i mean it's going back to what donovan said they've been a flaw team since day one they ended up being able to do the impossible last series and upset and dismantle the boston celtics only for them to come into the series and get upset in my opinion upset and dismantled by the

indiana pacers it's nothing they're getting dismantled right now okay if you're down three one the games are closer that's what i'm saying this dismantled this mantled is more looking at the score of the series rather than how these games actually gone actually gone they had one of the biggest collapses yes in game one they were you have to be up 14 in order to do that in game two you have a shot at the end to tie like these games have been close then you go in and in game three and you win the game so it's like also this this game was a six point game with with 245 left right it's a two possession game it's a fake six point game it's felt like a 10 point the game is about a buckets you literally saw the bucket going and you were like oh wow this is crazy it's a game

now yeah no and then right immediately right afterwards i've seen someone i seen pascal siaga made so don't tell me it's fake though like that's it was a six point game for three seconds yeah it was a little bit of a fake come back again dismantling is a misrepresentation of how the series is gone the fact that is 3-1 that right whether whether we're getting dismantled or not doesn't ultimately matter the the big thing is that we are down 3-1 right that's the That's the ultimate key. If you want to talk about anything in the series, the two biggest things that you can talk about are the fact that, one, Tyrese Halliburton has ascended, done whatever, right?

You can have the Halliburton conversation. Also, I hate Rob 49 so much because he gave him that damn theme song for the whole, for the whole thing. So now every edit, every highlight tape has a turn it off. Turn the song off. I'm sick of it. I'm sick of it. Okay, so did the dismantle conversation just? minutia in the day but I'm with you they are getting dismantled they're not getting destroyed

let's use some really specific unimportant verbiage they're not getting destroyed as in they're getting blown out but I think this mantling is a good word because I don't think you can point to one single reason to why this team is losing you know in a lot of series you're like oh they couldn't defend this they couldn't shoot well from here they're rebounding killed them here the transition killed them here there's no one thing that I'm narrowing this down to the paces are just the all around better team they're better at offense and they're better at defense they're better at all the important things that matter, all the small things that matter. It feels like the reasons we thought this Knicks would lose to the Celtics because they had these 1-5 pairing that are great

offensively, obviously, but don't really complement each other in a way that maximizes Kat. And their defense is obviously horrendous. It gives you a really, really low floor if things aren't going well offensively, which they often don't because Kat isn't really be maximized. All these things come together. And we didn't really see them as having a chance to beat the Celtics for reasons X, Y, and Z that we talked about all year. That didn't happen against the Celtics. The Celtics Melted down, the Knicks got the best of them. They did what they had to do. Every single thing we thought that would be the Achilles Hill against the Celtics

is the Achilles Hill against the Pacers for essentially the same reasons. They're exposing them the same way we thought Jason Tatum and Jalen Brownwood. This time is Pascal Seacum and Tyre's Halliburton. Top to bottom, they're being dismantled because they're worse in every significant facet. So they're just, I don't even think it's really that much of a reason to slander the Knicks. They just simply aren't the better team. Yeah, I agree. And this is the best showcasing for it.

It even goes down to like the little things. One of the things that pisses me off when it comes to watching the Knicks is seeing how they have terrible techniques defensively when it comes to getting over screens and shit like that. And even on the offensive end, too, they're horrendous at setting screens. I guess maybe someone like Mitchell Robinson is the best when it comes to that. But even then, like outside of that, everyone just don't, they don't do a good job of getting close enough or send their feet enough to give someone like John Brunson an angle to get an advantage. So it feels like the offense is literally, like you said, it's the. The theme of the entire Knicks Tenture, since John Brunson's step foot there, it's due or die by Jalen Brunson. And whenever Macau Bridges isn't on and he's giving you 18 points, which he did turn up towards the second half, specifically the fourth quarter of the game.

He hit plenty of cuts threes and whatnot, but it was just like too little too late. Yeah. It's everything we said all year is really fucking hard to win with a cat-led defense. If you're going to do that, you have to get amazing cat offense. And they came to the conclusion that they really can't get away with starting him at center. because of the defense. And you will not get amazing cat offense with him at power forward.

So it's the trade-off, which side do we balance, and they've done a decent job in these last two games of starting the bigs, but still getting a lot of minutes with Katz center, picking their spots to get the best of him on offense and the best of him on defense. It's a tricky, tricky thread to have to try to, you know,

stay on either side of and get the most of him. And this team is just too good to try to figure that out on the fly. The games are close. I know what you're going to say. No, no, the way we're talking about the paces feels very, like, grandiose. And it feels just a little bit too much. So you think it's more bad nicks than it is good facers?

Yes. Both are true, I think. I think it's bad nicks and the paces are good enough to cross the threshold that you can't get away with bad nicks. Yes. And, but that, but that's what I don't, like, I don't, yeah, I just, I just don't think that, like, that the pacer's, you know, wildly, like, this wild juggernaut. I do think, and I'll say this right now. Like, if we do end up losing this series, I hope the Thunder killed them. Like, I hope they beat them in three.

What the fuck? Like, I really, I really, really do hope that happens. And I hope Caruso just runs through Tyrese's face day in and day out and just over and over and over again. Because the way, the way that they've. been able to as if Tyreece Halliburn ruin his life

the way that they've been able to get their game off because he was early he was trying to set up a whole

10 and we're going to go to New York you ain't going nowhere bitch you're staying here I said

I said for game five bozo I said for game five you thought we were going to New York for the finals

thought he was going to have a time bro nope you stay right here in Illinois enjoy 60 degree we can go

to Portillo Y'all talk. Y'all talk. I can introduce you to Haryl's. Y'all'all'all. Shout out to I of avocado for tipping $15. He said, don't worry, Don. I got the script right here. Nixon 9.

No, go ahead. Y'all talk. I didn't see that coming at all. Shout out to Jason Head for $1. He said, he said to trade idea. We'll get to that later. Appreciate you Jason Head. Shout out to Moe's hair, 16 for tipping $5.

He said, thanks for helping $1. me past time as school gets hard, started watching when I first got accepted to my master's, and today I got my Ph.D. program. Also, Nick suck ass. Shout out you and your degrees, man. Appreciate it. Nick's at 11.

Oh, man. Yeah, but I mean, I don't know. I mean, there's plenty of things we can talk about. Yeah. Again, they're just not the better team. So I'll say that upfront, I don't have a ton of slander for them. Just because my expectations coming into this playoff run, coming into the season were never Nick should be in the conference finals or maybe no they could make the conference finals

well it was never Nick's should be in the finals right so this isn't some kind of collapse that I'm like we got to reevaluate everything they just are who we thought they were and who we thought they were is marginally worse in the Pacers in ways that are leading to the Pacers winning these games that are close ultimately so it's not

a domination but the better team is winning more often they're not and it really comes down to how good is the cat in Brunson pairing because we're not going to have depth that pairing has to be amazing and they are flawed i will say this there's two things one of the things that i'll just get out the way real quick tibs should be fired as fuck this is embarrassing to lose in fucking four five games or whatever not four five six games or whatever it might be he needs to

be gone like tomorrow immediately because how creative they've been offensive we thought the entire like i don't know 80 games that we've seen them play 90 games you seem to play it just it just never fails. He needs to be gone. And on top of that, too, we've been talking about the Kat and Brunton parent. I guess I want to ask you, Donovan, when you look at someone like Carnetowns, you see, I think he's made an all-N-B-A team, all-star starter, you know, he's been, he's had a wildly successful year for you guys. When you see his playoff downfalls and what he is with Brunton and how hard it is to win with him, do you, how do you plan on moving forward with someone like that? I mean, who's, who else is available?

Like, Kat's contract is set up to where, and like the Knicks have, you know, they've maneuvered around the CBA and around the second apron to where they have more flexibility than a lot of other contenders. But when you look at who, when you look at other players who have the salary that Kat has, it's all top tier players. So then whenever you're talking about moving around in that, like, in that tax bracket, okay, who's on the table? If we're talking about Janus, you're gone.

Like, it's not, it's not a question. But if you're talking about somebody else, like, and obviously, it would never happen. But, like, somebody, like, Bradley Beal has, you know, $50 million on this country. If you have somebody in that tier and it's like, are we actually going to make a trade for somebody on that level just to switch it up? No, like I'd rather at this point keep, keep cat and try to figure some other stuff out, whether that be being more creative offensively, whether that be, being more creative offensively, whether that be. replenishing the depth in the in the front court like it's it's taken a long time but i mean we played the season with you know with mitcher robinson hurting a lot precious played a lot i've always been very uh fond of hook porty i want to see if if you can get anything out of him yeah

you want to see if you can get anything out of tylic and all the right because all of these other players and you see it in this series the especially in game three it's like oh wow we have people on the bench that can actually give us something. In Indiana, Indiana has just amazing depth to where they can go to a Benedict Mathrim who has played poorly in this series. And then all of a sudden, six minutes, he gets seven points. You can go to a T.J. McConnell who can hold down the four and do everything. Like, they have guys behind their starting five that can at least hold water.

Whereas the Knicks, if Delon Wright is not coming in and hitting a clutch three, you know with like seven minutes ago then the whole game is going to tear apart and that's a crazy place to be in when you're in the Eastern Conference finals and you're like Delano Wright, Landy Shamish, save us. Chad, who do you guys view as the biggest problem on this team?

Let's talk about the starting five because obviously depth is not a strong suit here. We all feel how we feel about Tibbs. He has the strengths and weaknesses and we feel like his weaknesses are really shining with a specific roster that needs an offensive oriented coach, I think. Outside of those obvious things,

you can point to Brunson defense, you can point to Kat defense, you can point to Josh Hart, which I'm seeing you guys spam immediately. Went to whoever you want. What is the biggest flaw here that they need to address? Who should be replaced in the starting lineup?

To your point, you said who's out there for a cat salary potentially if you're just moving him? My mind, again, I haven't thought about this for a single fucking second, but my mind went to Larry Markening. Getting another spacer out there who isn't your defensive anchor who can be a real power forward and figuring out another center could obviously, Mitchell Robinson can't play full-time starter minutes. Just his style of play, you want him a short burst and it gets hurt a lot.

Center X plus Larry Marketing, something like that. Another expensive guy who isn't one of the best players in the world But isn't a five that can't hold down a defense Because you need a good you need a good rep protector next to Jalen Brunson You just do There's a lot of talk right now about his defense being so atrocious Such an just abomination that you can't even blame Kat Because Brunson's so bad

That's not true, I don't think I think the combination of those two is fucking horrible If you have a terrible room protector and a terrible point guard You can't live with both You can live with a bad defensive point guard Many teams have done it Cat just can't be the guy on his back line Yeah and that's fair

also for everybody who's saying josh i also like you guys know how much i love josh heart i don't i don't think if he has to go in order to get a prime if it ends up being cat heart and you know whatever to get a prime player okay i guess so be it i don't think he is an inherent problem yeah i think that this is something that has been a year-long thing of how do we optimize everybody on this roster and the fact that Mikhail has come in and he's somebody who can average, what, 20, 22 on a solid team. O.G.'s offense has grown because of the playoff run last year, you thought you were going to get more out of Josh Hart, Jalen Brunson's ascension, you know what Kat brings offensively. This is one of those cases where there really is only one ball and you have to figure out how to

manage and stagger everybody. So I think Josh Hart didn't have a great mental game, made a lot of mistakes today, I still think he's insanely valued. I want a three-team deal, three-team deal where the Knicks get Lowry-Marketing and Goga, cat goes to the, cat goes to the magic, gives them a stretch five, give him spacing, and then whatever the fuck the jazz want out of that equation goes to the jazz. Something like that would be cool. I like that idea a lot. I like that idea a lot.

And I honestly lean towards that way, too. I look at O. Gennon, Novi, Saul, you deserve your job. Obviously, Jeline Brunson is there for eternity. if you could have him. Macau Bridges, reservations will be out. He's had a very interesting season. I will just say that.

It's not his fault. I'm actually going to give him a pass. It's not his business. McCall Bridges. Yeah, Macal's just Mikel at this point. I don't feel like I need to do any slander to him or he prays to him. He is fine.

They gave up too much to get him. We know that. But in terms of the actual problems of why this team lost or why this team won in previous rounds, I just don't attribute that much to McHale Bridges to really harp on him either way. Yeah.

Also, real quick, tonight, shout out to Aaron Eastman. Shout out to Aaron Eastman. Okay. Because he, he, he had hurt his ankle last game, spraying that thing, turn that thing badly. And his, you know, his availability for the game was up in the air. Came out today, was hooping, he was knocking down threes.

Early on in the game, you could tell, he was like, oh, yeah, they shot him up. Because he was moving well, and he was jumping, he was doing everything. He had a great game. So, yeah, I got a shout out. Aside from the doom and gloom what we're talking about, because we've always been down on the next championship equity, obviously. I think we've always respected them as like the third or fourth best team in the conference. But we never once thought they'd have a chance of making the finals as far as our regular season perception of them.

We just didn't think it would be the Pacers. So we obviously are taking this approach of like, told you they weren't that good. Yeah. But you could say, you know, first year together, they're in the conference finals. Clearly they surpassed expectations. People like us had of them. the neutral fans who don't give a shit about the Knicks don't have fandom. The series should be 2-2.

So you can say that. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. It should be. It could be. It very well could be. Game 1, if you simulate it over a million times. Every time, except for one universe, that is a win. Nevertheless, the wins on the board. That's what I'm saying. But you could say that the Knicks could be in the series, and hell,

it's not over yet. So I guess we don't got to pretend it is. We don't have pretend they have four wins. So you could take the Rose Tint the Glass's approach and say, Year one, they can only get better from here. They'll replenish their depth over time, potentially. They'll figure out moves on the margins. We see this core is capable of getting to the conference finals. If you get to the conference finals, you can get to the finals.

You're in striking distance. Yeah. Is there a reason to feel that copium to feel good long term still about this court? Yes. And unfortunately, it comes at the expense of the Boston Soutons. Because they're cooked. Yeah, because Tatum's, because Tatum tore his Achilles and because their payroll is so high and all the changes are,

are coming in, you look at the Eastern Conference and you go down the list. It's like one C, Cleveland Cavaliers, mad questions about them. Two C, Boston Celtics, they're cooked at least for next year. Three is us, four is the Pacers. Five, you have the Pistons. How close are they to being actually ready? And then once you get, what, six, the Orlando Magic, they don't know how to play offense, having played good offense in 16 years.

You continue to go down the list of the Eastern Conference, and especially once you get to seven, you really. have no hope for anybody. The 7th team in the East next year could be like the Philadelphia 76ers. And are we going to, and that's if everybody's healthy, whatever. And that's if we would have to believe we're going to get a solid start to finish run from Paul George and Joel M. That's not going to happen.

So looking at the Eastern Conference next year, there's very, very good chance that we look up and is these two teams again because these two teams are going to be the healthy ones and these two teams are going to be the ones that have the most experience, the most championship equity that have been here, all this other stuff. So that's the reason to look for next year. And again, we might not even be at that point for a long, long time because it's Nixon's seven. But let it be known. There's still three games, right? There's still three games. But looking towards next year, yeah, the Eastern Conference is wide open. Because of that, I think you guys have to move with so much urgency.

agreed there's no time to sit down in like we did that to go get to go get mckell and everyone's like oh you paid too much it's like yeah we had to strike in that moment it costs what it costs i get it charge it like i it is it is it is what it is and the energy i need you guys to stand on it 10 toes down absolutely again because like you said everything is so wide open you cannot the cleveland cavaliers as great as they were they do not put strike any fear into no one's hearts in the post season specifically because of all the horrendous thing that consistently happened to them in the postings. So I'm immediately moving.

I'm figuring out the Tibbs situation. What did you see? If I'm a Knicks fan, the Cavs strike fear in my heart. Another year, Evan Mobley, the Knicks scare me if I'm a Knicks fan, at least. I'm not worrying about them. The Knicks do scare me as a Knicks fan. Sure, true. Oh, yeah.

Shout out to Dark Lobster for tipping $10. He said, Don, would you rather the Knicks get cooked by Trey Young or Tyree Talibur next year? Pick your belt, bitch. See, this is, this is tough. This is tough. because if it's Trey Young, then it's a two-on-one with him and Trey-Young. But I can't lose to Tirees three years in a row. Yeah, that's embarrassing.

I can't do that. And shout out to Jacob for tipping $1. He said, let Donovan release his demons on cat. Hey, yo. He's his demons on cat. Hey, yo. Oh, man. I don't know how to.

Okay, what could they do? So let's say they do decide to keep Kat, right? Let's say they're running back this core. Brunson is going nowhere. Cat, presumably in this scenario goes nowhere. No reason to trade OG. McHale, you probably don't get adequate value for. So it ends up being Josh Hart.

It's Josh Hart plus whatever assets they have left. I can't remember the pick situation on top of my head. Is that even like... I don't even know if that's worth doing right now. Let's say you replace Josh Hart with the guy who compliments him better. Let's say Dorian Finney Smith, whoever it is, another 3-and-D wing who gives you the shooting. Josh Hart doesn't. More defensive size.

We're eating. Yeah. If that's the case, we are eating. Is that enough that you'd feel good like that would be the difference in the series? I don't. I mean, I don't think so. Is DFS really that much better than someone like Josh Hart? Yes.

It's about this specific skill set right now, like not even necessarily who's better. Josh Hart's lack of shooting is a fucking problem. You have to play DFS like he's a shooter. And there wouldn't be any time in this series where they're allowed to play off of DFS, the way that they're allowed to play off with Josh Hart. And so that in itself just gives you a whole new set of options offensively. So I think that that is key. The offensive rebounding, depending on how much you want to, you know, put value into that,

whenever you do have Kat and Mitchell Robinson and you can, you feel like you would have a, a big on the floor that gives you that floor. That's cool. But also, yeah, it's very hard because the Josh Hart transition stuff is one of the few times that this team actually gets out and runs and pushes and pushes the pace. Outside of that, we're walking the ball up the floor, right? We're getting into half court offense, Jalen Brunson time, and it's very, very effective. I'm not going to hate on that.

But Indiana, Indiana gets buckets off of makes. They get buckets off of any single time. As soon as the ball goes in, it's like they're just trained. Like the ball hits nylon and they like run. And it's like so they can get out and create so many opportunities. And so I think for New York, there was a stretch in like the second and third quarter. But mainly in the second quarter, where New York was doing the same thing to Indiana. They were getting out.

They were pushing the ball and they were getting easy buckets and getting to the line. That's something that if DFS is not there, this really is going to be like the slowest team in the league. Yeah. And some people in the chat are saying, we're not going to trade Josh Hart. You can't trade Josh Hart. He's the heart of the team. He gets man's rebounds. Yeah, you don't want to trade Josh Hart.

But what options do you have if you're not going to trade Kat and you're going to continue to run this quarterback? I keep telling you what it is. There's not many things to do. you're going to keep your great wings you're going to keep your great point guard let's say you're going to keep your star center you're not going to train Mitchell Robinson he's been a godsend for you to do everything cat doesn't do well they compliment each other quite well you're really your only option is Josh Hart it's not like you're going to have cap space to go on and get somebody like you're not going to have a full mid-level exception like there's very limited options and to me again

this is getting so far ahead of ourselves this is obviously like just like NBA Twitter brain reaction got to make trades I feel like trading cat would make sense what the right deal was there like I think it is a fatal flaw to have Brunson and cat together. I don't know how you can get around that without the perfect scenario. And you can't hope for the perfect scenario every year. I agree. You have to juice up your defense in my mind. Like as much as we all harp on like how uncreative their offenses,

we've seen time and time again, especially in this playoff run specifically. Like, you know, I see OKC doing uncreative, a lot of uncreative things with their offense currently right now. And they're allowed to get away with it because, of course, they have a generational bucket getter and then a bunch of young guys as well. who give them like an insane amount of spacing but their defense is what allows them their generational defense at that allows them to get away with that

and the Knicks have nowhere near that so that's getting rid of Kat is the easiest answer how do the Knicks get Kaysen Wallace Alex Caruso and Wiccan how do we get a bench mob that is the best collection of defensive talent anybody's ever seen one step out of time and Kat is the first step sorry

Chicago Bulls what's up Kayson Wallace MVP in the chat said ironically uh are Isaac are you excited to go to indiana fuck no i'm absolutely not excited we're not going to indiana i think h o h want us to go to indiana

they're not going to win the series oh okay fair enough we're not going to indiana sam might be like indiana or okay see which one you want to go to you and i'm like fuck shoot me god damn i'm not going out there i really want to york to win for that reason

because i'm damn sure not going to oklahoma man shout out tarris halber we haven't talked at all about the Pacers because it's been doom and gloom the Knicks are cooked obviously and we got to lead with that Donovan he had his eyes a moment now we got to say good things about the Pacers

I don't and say you can sit there and be quiet if you'd like but we gotta say some good things I will I told you we go I'm done saying good things about Tyrese hallib I have so many good things to say the motherfucker had a 30 point triple double yeah Tyresellabon is obviously risen to the level that everybody

that ever glazed him at any point of the past four years wanted to introduce he is on twitter getting steve nash comps he is modern-day steve nash to people because he clearly is taking his team to heights every playoff run it seems that nobody thought he could do because he's not a traditional a lot of points rebounds of this guy right he's not the heavy score not the heavy rebounder the great defensive player he's proven that his style of play just leads to victory he makes people around him better nights like this he is that points rebounds of this guy he does do the gaudy stat lines people want to see he's just like a top 12 player in the world I don't know what number you want to ascribe to the level he's reached but he's reached a goddamn new level this season and it's glorious to see 32 12 and 15

32 12 and 15 in a very pivotal playoff game we saw him do I saw him fucking defend someone like I think OG on a novi or something like that in the post we saw him in the passing lanes being a fucking menace out of nowhere defensively we saw him get to the rim as usual and just be super physical and use every inch of that six five frame we've seen him take the craziest wildest threes and all that like he's been spectacular and he this is like peak tyrie salibur he's he's very much now been in like all time all time pacers talk and seeing him ascent to this level makes me feel like yo the same thing like i said to the india about the new york nix when it comes to them optimizing this roster i don't know what's going to happen the finals who knows if I do. Come back,

but they need to continuously apply fucking pressure. Belt! Of course, that's a phrase. Let's go, Casey. Thunder and fucking four. That's what's going to happen in the finals. I agree.

But at the end of the day, hey, they're going to make at least O.KC sweat for a second. For a quarter. Yeah, maybe. What you said about optimizing the roster, that 100% is true.

And the thing, like I saw on Twitter, somebody was asking, like who else can play like Indiana and someone was like I mean really nobody right like outside of outside of okay see but in terms of playing as fast as they do and putting the amount of pressure that they that they do non-stop every game that is a very singular thing the only time I could think of getting there if they had a big mindset shift from their best player and their coach and got the right pieces around them is the hawks I think there's a blueprint there to get

the most of Tray Young if he's not a volume score but obviously they got to have a lot of stuff go right to get to that point, but the only blueprint I could think of is if Trey Young has a total mindset shift, which is a lot to ask, but you know what's my favorite mantras or sayings, lingoes or whatever,

and the entire like sports base? I'd like to hear it. I love hearing the Carolina Panthers say keep pounding, but I've never seen. That's my favorite saying. That's my favorite thing. But the team that literally embodies that

is the Indiana Pacers. They continuously keep pounding no matter what. All they know was how to, pound they keep on pounding continuously pound after pound after pound no matter what and you felt the most pounds out of everybody in pound history because bro seeing how they made it collapsed and i bro i'm going crazy seeing how just they have an array guys to just hit you from every angle pop pop pop pop no matter what it is like it's a pascal chalcum three tyris halibur and he's going ahead and driving to the rim you got andrew nimhar

I sawing the fuck out of someone like bro you didn't even mention the knee smith hammer oh my god I didn't even get to talk about Aaron Neesmith no one even getting me started about someone like Benedict Madden who just random and sporadic with this game they're just coming from every angle they exemplify pounding

and he exemplifies getting pounded exactly you're the post of war for getting pounded the way y'all speaking on me I don't appreciate you're going to speak on you or Taylor Brunson pick a side Well, that's enough talk about that. Obviously, we think the next are going to lose the series. It feels like it's all but wraps.

People come back before. The two people up here that aren't wearing an orange shirt every night when they go to sleep. Come on. But obviously, you can come back for 3-1, so it's not over. But I don't feel inspired by the performance to think they are going to make that miraculous comeback. Guess what? All the next Twitter pages already got the Photoshop of Jalen Brunson's face on the LaBron. Oh, my gosh.

You know what I am inspired by, though? The Oklahoma City Thunder going on 3-1 against. the Minnesota Timberwolves, game three, the Minnesota Timberwolves came out and played a perfect game of basketball. They beat the fuck out of the Oklahoma City of Thunder, which it was, to be expected that they'd win,

you know, you're down 2-0, you go back home, that team typically wins and fights for their lives and comes out with urgency that leads to a victory to not go down 3-0 and be all but doomed. That was expected. It was not expected that they would win by goddamn 40. It was a master class on Chris Finch making great adjustments,

and they just punched the OKC Thunder in the mouth. And every fast of the game, It was a blowout from start to finish. Then game four came back around, and we saw what we thought we'd see. The Oklahoma City Thunder come out. They win. They secure the 3-1 lead, which, again, like I said, about the next, to me, all what ends a series bar insane comebacks.

It felt like they got crowned the champion to the public. It felt like people kind of were just like, oh, well, there goes, OKC championship. It is what it is. How did you feel? To me, so for our predictions, I don't remember what you guys said, but I know I was very firm of my stance to say in temperament. And Timberwolves and OKC and five. This is the easiest series for me to predict because I see the flaws within this team.

And I know the type of players that they need, the type of players that they have in order to thrive. And they, things just didn't happen. The last game that we saw, we saw Donovan, said Donald Mitchell, Dante da Vincienzo, go ahead and snap. We saw Jane McDaniels have a fucking solid. Okay. nice game and we also saw wait what's going on address it

you're talking you put the solo cam on me I just looked up I was like oh hey oh that's me it caught him off guard but no you're right you said timber rules in five and I mean you said thunder in five yeah I said I'll give the

Timberwells enough respect to say Thunder and six but I said I think you'll be right in saying it goes five I'd rather I think you'd be right before somebody saying it would go seven will be right. That was way more likely. And yeah, I also feel like you're going to be right in the outcome now because it feels like the Thunder are going to close us out.

Man, Shay was one rebound away from a 40 point triple double. I think this. On the road. Yeah, I think this game right here should, like, there's a certain crowd on NBA Twitter or an NBA landscape.

We all know so many people hate Shay goes Alexander. In that clip that we posted about the whole file bait, the comment section was fucking war they were so mad oh my god it was like more comments than we usually get on a regular like long form video or whatever and seeing how much they hate shay

I hope they really really dissected this 40 point game and compared that to ants 5 or 13 game I think he put up like 15 13 15 points or whatever it was yeah there's there's a massive gap scoring wise between these two players

and also not IQ-wise, but I'll just say instinctually offensively. There's a massive gap between the tomb. This game right here represents that, represents that completely. I know what you mean when you say that. I think what that comes down to to me is Shea has counters and knows when to go to them. And specifically because both these teams are being guarded with ridiculous defensive

coverages that the whole goal is to make sure you do not touch the paint. Neither one of them are really killing at the paint right now because of other defenses are selling out to stop that. And because of that, the Timberwell shot goddamn 55% from 3. because they had nonstop open threes because the OKC defense said, you're not beating us. Nikol-Alexander Walker

and Dante DiVenzo almost beat them. That went by design. So the Timberwolves didn't even play poorly. They had an outlandish magnet ball game and still lost. And that's because Shea was able to not only create shots in a similar fashion, get people open when they're double teaming him,

but also, man, he killed them from mid-range in the post around the frito line area. There was one play where Donse de Venzo got switched on to him, which is a matchup they tried to avoid. He walked him down from the top of the arc into the paint, hit a fadeaway. He looked like goddamn Michael Jordan,

just walking him down real slow, being bigger than him, finishing with a fadeaway. That's just such a maturation in his game that obviously he didn't have when he was 23. And now he's 26. That to me is a difference

to him and aunt right now is when Aunt is Shay's age, he might have that similar thing, but that type in-between game is what he needs to develop to have the game in and game out consistency against top-end defenses like this.

Yes. And obviously we've seen what happens in game three when he hits from three and the pull-up three is his counter. Yes. He looks unguardable.

You can't rely on the pull-up three being your only counter every game and i think that is like what we saw right there was so reminiscent of and i hate to say it of someone like james hardin whose game is so predicated off of the pull up or step back threes and just driving to the rim and when you're not able to do that you're kind of cooked and your brain is scrambled and you don't know you don't you don't have the bag and i don't see he doesn't have the bag but he just doesn't have the necessary tools at the moment he doesn't go ahead and you know you're right He doesn't have to beg yet.

He'll develop it over time, but he's young and he's athletic, and he added the insane three-point shot. So now he's like Damien Lillard with a 45-inch vertical who can stretch you out and then attack the rim off of that gravity as a pull-up shooter. But you're right, developing that middle of the floor game, he doesn't have the back value yet. Super important. And he'll get there for sure. But this will be a great learning opportunity for him too because he'll probably never face a perimeter defenseist's talent ever again unless he faces. Don't see you thunder next year. But like, there's really no up from here in terms of difficulty matchup-wise.

And he's playing a good game. Like he didn't score well in this past game. Ant that is. He played makes it really well. Like there's a reason this team shot so unbelievably well from three. He was a engine creating those shots. So I'm overall happy with Anthony Edwards' performance. He'll probably get some slander because that's what comes to the territory of being

the guy, being one of the next faces and people wanted to push you super hard, super fast to to those like heights of being a top three player or whatever people want from him. Slander comes with that. But I'm very happy with Ante to play performance. Good. because the slander's coming from my way You have to take more than 13 shots You have to do it

I don't I don't care When you Good passing Shoot more And I think that like one of the big differences In this game And it's crazy because Because She was like a rebound away

From a 40 point triple double And again 40 points on the road Crazy This game was so much about Jdub for me And it was so much about Chet Yes Because, again, we've talked all playoffs long about them being the X factor. And there are, there were so many times where they are doubling, doubling shave

and leaving J. Dub wide open. And every single time he hit the three. There's Dante DiVincenzo, Nikkel Alexander Walker. They're hitting timely three after timely three. Who comes back? Jalen Williams almost instantly, like the very next possession, just walks up. Can't shoot, boom. Cheongren has, he's getting.

Big blocks. He's getting massive offensive rebounds. He's getting second chance threes at the same time. The coronation for the thunder, I think for a lot of people, it's like, well, if these guys are playing like that, then of course this is like the 15 wars. Of course, it's such a coronation. And so on the other side, because Oklahoma City has those two guys and you compare, you compare J-Dubb and Chet Hongren and what they're giving you offensively, and you look at

ants running mate and Julius Rand. And this not being a great Julius Randall series, you also look at that and you're like, all right, man, like you are going to have to do just a little bit more scoring wise. And so that's what 13 shots is just not enough. Yeah, he's the thing, though, when we did our top 10 rankings before the conference finals, we ranked Randall above J-Dub because prior to the series, he was playing better. This is no coincidence. Man, I didn't believe that.

We knew, we knew. I do. Yeah, I know. Like, you know what the downfalls are. Listen, listen, listen, I agree with you. I'm saying we did that because we had to gauge on in the moment how they're performing, so that was the exercise. We all would rather have J-Dub, but in the moment, Randall's playing well.

So I'm saying this to say, not only is J-Dub being the superior offensive sidekick, he's also locking Randall the fuck up. The reason Randall is struggling is because he's in the J-dub torture chamber. J-Dub is one of the best two-way wings in the NBA when his offensive games is hidden like this. Obviously against the Nuggets and a little bit against the end of the series against the Grizzlies when they went down in that big game. He didn't always have them. most consistent shot-making performances, right?

That is kind of the thing with him. When he hits, he is amazing. You're looking like a top 15 player in the world, but the offensive consistency isn't always there because the ball handling waivers at times, a jump shot waivers of times, whatever. When he hits like this, there's not many better two-way players.

The level of defensive playmaking he brings, snatching people whenever they're dribbling in front of him, he has the length to reach around and rip you, the passing lanes are ridiculous, the weak side help is ridiculous, the nail defense is ridiculous, still the good point of attack defender. That is so crazy to be tasked with locking down Julius Randall's big swole ass crashing into your chest, nonstop all game, while also giving you 30 being at times elite shotmaker when Shea's on the bench.

Ridiculous performance in J-Dob. J-Defense who really reminds me of fucking Batman, bro. He just has all these tools equipped for no fucking reason. And you know someone like him, like he has, he's really, no one really thought he would be this level of defender whatsoever. no one had this on their scouting report at all. And to see him just, like, be all those types of level defenders and be good from everywhere. Like, you can't really poke a real flaw to his defensibility anywhere on the court is. I ain't throwing lobs.

Look at that. Exactly. He just makes no sense. And he's so important to what this OKC team does defensively and also offensively. Like, he showed up. I think he scored like a cool 31 points. And there was this very specific play at the towards the final minutes of the fourth quarter. I remember Minnesota,

They had, they kept on keeping the game really close and it got to a point to where it was like a two, three point point game. And I think Rudy Gober was switched on to Shea on the left side of the wing. And for some reason, Shay just like lost his footing for a second. He had his pivot, he lost his footing, but he slipped, fell on the ground. And he threw the ball, I believe, in between someone's legs. And he just threw it in desperation to J-Dub. And J-D took that shot, from the ball a little bit in his hands. And he hit the three.

Blue Verlas in the chat said, is J-dub better than chat? Right now, yes. And that's what's so goddamn horrifying about this team. He will not be better than Chet for much longer. And this team is already, in my opinion, going to win the championship with the most diet version of Chet you're ever going to see. He is so unbelievably far from what he'll be, in my opinion, even next year when he has a full offseason, hopefully doesn't get hurt again, because that's been the story, obviously.

The fact that he's playing this well contributing to this level of high-level basketball, winning them games in the fourth quarter like he did in this game in a season in which he broke his hip and came back in season that is not normal people are out for the season typically if you shatter your fucking hip

the fact that he came back had to rehab and get his feel back on the fly while clearly having a weaker lower body clearly not being fully conditioned losing valuable reps at that too he's going to be so much better

next year and I think will be better than Jdub and that should be terrifying question for y'all if they go on and they win this chip at the start of next season would you guys

would you guys start the year with this starting five or would you put Chet back at the fire? No, they shouldn't be starting Hardinstein right now at all I think the only reason He played like 15 minutes in the first half of this game

Yeah, it was 10 and then I think he finished like 15 Yeah Because clearly they need to start Chet Which is what I've been saying The whole fucking season At this point I think Mark Dagnon knows that

But they're giving Hardenstein The chance every game To have a good start And like earn his minutes Because he's one of their best players But they're going away from him Really fast Because clearly they're better

with Chet at the 5. So to me, it's pure politics and managing the locker room right now. I would be baffled if Hardinstein is in a six-man next year. Yeah, I agree with you. It just doesn't make any sense. You see the advantage and you see how much smooth. I love, like, I heart's ability to do those green passes and all that. That's very valuable.

But when it comes to, like, the level of prayer that Shay is and what he needs to kill the floor offensively all the time through all the, I will say, disadvantages that these players have, Kason Walsas and Alice is Alice Caruso, sometimes Jada and all that. Shea needs as much space as possible. And Chet is one of the rare players in the NBA who can give you space while also, of course, doing what he does defensively being one of the best players at his position at that end. And so in my mind, I 100% agree with you. I heart, as great as he is, he has to come off the bench next year. And Chet's also kind of like Kat, where he's a lot better offensively. He's a score when he's attacking fives than when he's

attacking fours. I think we'll see that to an even greater degree next year when he's physically in a better spot to really attack as a primary score so yeah it makes no sense to me to still do the heart and sign thing besides the politics and managing personalities which that part does make sense but on the court like the numbers bear it out

the eye test bears it out chet needs to be a five yeah this whole run has been very very cool and game four and game four of this series and then game five of of the Denver series are the two are the two games where

the only thing that you've been able to say about this team all year long is like oh they're they're super young like they they haven't been through the fire and all that those two games i feel like silenced all of that and they they 100% any type of like loss that you would have needed them to take they passed those tests and so that proved that or should have proved to a lot of people like they're they're ready to go to go into denver was that no no no game five was at home so but to to play Denver in in game five and after that series has been an extremely crazy super wonky and then to go get that and then again this this was a magnet ball game yeah from the bench

and dante degenzel and the kong they got the timblewows got 64 points from their bench insane and that is a that is a game that if you just look at the box where you expect the thunder to win or you expect the timblewops to win and every single time that minnesota hit a shot okay she came back responded time and time again and now they're up three one and it's it's looking easy and so they yeah they're probably going to close it out tomorrow and get to the finals and have what like a week off a week and a half off and it's just it's just light work their responses offensively through the big timely shots that someone like she hits or whatever jay over chet randomly gives them in spurts as well their responses are also like hugely predicated off

the goddamn turnovers that they force. Like their offense is not the best, but what makes it, like, feel like much better than what it actually is, is seeing how often they're able to just hackle or heckle all the other guys on the Minnesota Timbool's offense, whether it be Mike Connolly, like, stealing the ball from the back or whatever it is, or just, like, frustrating, getting all up in someone like Julius Randall's grill. How they're just the case and walls of the world, the chat seeing what Lou Doort does,

how they're able to just like get in their grill and dash down the court all the fucking time helps generate easy points and alleviates all the stresses of can you get a bucket for me if you're not if you're not shay in the half court chat uh how many how many rings is shayville's alexander are going to finish with over under four and a half let me see you in chat what you guys think question you go into the off season right now we're going to do ranking season early lean right now and retirees Anthony Edwards you're starting a franchise right now

yeah Anthony Edwards I'm not Are you guys you considering man You have to pay attention to what type of defense Anthony Edwards is playing right now man He's 23 years old He's he looks so much worse than what he actually is Of course we all know like He's not fully there

I'm saying it's a There's a guy on the opposite end We're calling modern day Steve Nash Do you see what we're calling the other one Modern Day Michael Troy no no no no but that but that comparison has all every time every time they're like he's michael jordan the next game he comes out and plays like trash and it's like okay he's not necessarily there and so that that that's always one we're like it's a bit but it's like here's modern day steve nash

doesn't turn the ball over has been to back-to-back conference finals i was just simply asking the question what he's not actually modern day steve nash like he's not that level he's like that style of player but so i think ant could actually be close to like what d weight is at his peak potentially, if he keeps developing, like, he could actually be as good as D. Wade one day. That's not off the table. I don't think Tyrese is actually going to be as good as MVP, Steve Nash. So that's the difference to me is that the style of play of Tyrese can put him above a lot of guys, over that you may say I'm more talented or better bucket getters, better defenders. The simple impact of what Tyrese does can really make up for a lot of that.

I think Ant might be so talented that he can actually be an all-time great. So I'm willing to give Ant leeway there to still go him. He's only 23. That is so goddamn young. Yeah, exactly. And I keep on forgetting, Tyrese is like 25, 26 years old. And they both came from the same draft class. I think Tyrese spent a couple years in college or two years in college and something like that.

So I'm definitely eating Anthony Edwards. But taking a step back, looking at this series, these are really early conversations, dumb, dumb conversations, but we're a bunch of dumb dumb, so we're going to have these. I'm going to ask this question. If you are a Minnesota Timberwell fan and you're looking at this roster, what would you do going into this next offseason. Get rid of Mike Conley, I think. Not my colony.

Either let Mike Connolly trade him or let Nick Alexander Walker walk, I think, because they have to free up money because they're going to resign Oz Reid, right? And empower Dillingham, Tarrant Shannon, Jr., whoever else you bring in young guys, really bring the young guys that are waiting for their turn, make that your bench mob next year.

That would be the main thing, I think. And I think you can consider trading Rudy Gobert. He's getting old, and the offensive falloff has. came steeply right this year he made a he fell off a lot this year like it's it's crazy like he exactly the starting point was crazy i'm saying you're falling off the curb like yeah i mean you're not doing anything you say that but like he was 15 and 13 last year like he was respectable in his role and it's like he lost a lot of juice this year so if you want to tell me they find their

next center of the future that could be something that makes sense you randall's probably often so you're probably going to keep him but to me it's really about to me it's really really about clearing up space whatever you needed. Obviously I'd like to keep me to kill Alexander Walker too but the reality is you're probably going to lose one of him or Nasreed

so I'd probably decide to keep Nasreed and really really empowered these young guys to see what you can do next year with them. Really interesting. Honestly if I'm the if that's the, if that is the choice Yeah. Nas read I'm sorry. Thank you for your service.

I almost see what. Nas read has been so so inconsistent and his and his value has gone so to like to one side. this like I can find I'm glad that you're 16 and like can't shoot three I can find somebody else to go three for eight in a playoff game

yeah well the only problem is with Rudy Gober being in question mark he's getting older and like you said this year took a step back do you want to get rid of your other good front court player when you're already iffy about your anchor yeah I well I don't think that they're gonna trade Rudy well they probably can't nobody probably but wants them like I don't think either either you're you don't want to trade them or if you do decide to do that that the value might not be something that you, like, want to do.

And so that's why, like, in that sense, I'm like, yeah, I'll probably keep Nikkel Alexander Walker. And for my colleague, also, thank you for your service. Yeah. It's been, it's been nice. It's been great. But we have to get some more juice out of that spot. So I'm, I'm cool. Out of those three guys, I would very much prioritize Nicky Alexander.

Yeah, ideally, there's a world to keep all of them. It would just be tough. And you had to hope nobody else wanted to kill Alexander Walker. It gives me a big payday, which I doubt. I think people will throw money to him. So I gave the, like, realistic-ish approach. You've been calling him a Laker for seven months. See, apparently the bronze is not going to take a pay cut,

so they damn sure can't afford him. So never mind. Yeah. If I'm the Minnesota Timberwolves, I'm so focused on figuring out ways to alleviate Anthony Edwards. Yeah. Maybe that way is like, hey, you already have the guys in Rob Dillingham and Terrence Shannon, Jr., who's been a fucking,

he just came out of nowhere. Yeah. He's one of the guys in the 2020. 23 or 24 NBA drive class I was like hmm he is one of I don't have guys but he's one of he would be one of my guys you don't have guys I don't have people usually do the my guys

yeah why don't you have guys I just don't I got guys I don't like guys like guys like guys I love guys guys guys are cool but I Re Shepherd my guy Modus Bezellis my guy Zach Eady my guy Taryn Shannon Jr. was probably the only guy that I had and he was your guy I remember yeah and seeing him just be like an explosive force and doing things that no one else

outside of Anthony Edwards has the ability to do on this Timberwell's roster was so interesting and so promising for their future and I can see a world and where someone like it maybe can sniff the starting lineup if that is fucking possible so I said I see a trend with Isaac's guys I did name all whites hey man that 24 draft class had a lot of guys who play the game the right way a lot of Jim Reds man I feel you shout out of Donovan clinging not quite my guy but we can call him my guy for all intents of purposes that was a classful of dangerous white boys. I'm not going to lie. Yeah, Donald Connect, too. I forget he was on that right. Damn. Hey, I'm not going to lie. This might be a historic. That is not a

dangerous wife. It could be. He could be, man. I don't know. But, um, what was I going to say? And a lot of this comes down to what Rob Dillingham gets to them next year. He's really a stealing decider. It was quite the all-in-move to give up essentially two draft class to trade up for Rob Dillingham. And I don't know. There's a lot of debate on the timeline right now about whether that was smart or not. I treat it in the same way. I treat a lot of rookie conversations and the guys don't get a lot of opportunity in their first year. Who the fuck knows? I won't pretend I have a strong Rob Dillingham opinion right now.

He got very little opportunity. You can learn very little from garbage time in it. So maybe he is a souped up Jordan Cawkesham from the next year. That's exactly what they need. Maybe it's a mistake and the defense is hard to make up for. I don't know. But that'll really be the swing factor in the near future, I think. Man.

They have to do something, though. Because this is. It feels encouraging, though. It is, but it's also, and it's kind of a product of expectation because you made it to the conference finals last year, and now you're here in conference finals and back to back years, and you're going to probably lose in five and both of them. Yep. It's like, damn, like, this is, this is kind of tough. And so where do you, where do you go from here because, because, like, the timeline with Kat and Rudy felt a little bit more together because they're closer in age than, than whoever. and I guess I guess Randall's kind of in that same tier but like now that like ants there

there's so much reconfiguring that's going on that you don't want to lose you know quote or quote like whatever window you have but I they they do have to have to do something because obviously like the West is just a bloodbath every single year and their their path to get here is probably is one of the more interesting because you play a Lakers team that was incomplete and that has a 40 year old LeBron and then You play a Warriors team that lost death 12 minutes into the series. So do you actually think that, like, you're disgood, that you're like, where's the conference finals? Sprinkling the Mickey Mouse allegations?

No, polite Mickey Mouse allegations you never heard. No, I mean, no. No, I'm kidding. I don't know, I mean, you definitely got to consider it that, like, are we comfortable with the level we are that we can get here again? Or do we got to realize that something's on our way and we can't get complacent? Yeah, I agree. I agree with you guys. All right. That's the two conference finals

Recaps. Next thing we're going to do, I asked you guys on a community post to give us your best NBA debate questions and we were going to argue them on stream. That's what we're here to do today. I picked a bunch of debates you guys have that are mostly player versus player debates. Three of us can give our opinions on it. Hopefully we disagree.

Hopefully we have some good debates. You guys in chat, let us know what you think about all of these. Chat, I hope you cooked. They've been on a roll recently. We'll see what they started. So we'll see if they keep it up. First one, they have. Brunson versus Mello all-time Nicks.

And there's a bunch of these. People were saying Brunson is already a better Nick than Mello after making the conference finals. Do we agree? Donovan, has Brunson lapped your king? Spotlight is on you. Don't be disrespectful and say Lapt. But yes, he is.

Yeah, he is. I think, like, you've had as much playoff success as Mello did. More. The thing with, like, with Mello really is the fact that, that nobody wanted to, it was such a symbolic, like him saying I want to go to the Knicks was such a symbolic moment and it meant so much because nobody was trying to go to the Knicks and so whoever was going to be, yeah, whoever was going to be the first person in there was always going to be, was always going to have a very, very, like, deep place in a lot of

people's heart. But the way that Brunson has performed year in and year out, the levels that he's taking this to, I will take, I think Brunson is a better Nick than. mellow in terms of just like basketball performance yeah if it feels undoubtedly to me like his so obviously he's a team success that's a no-brainer and if you want to talk about the nostalgia or the fan love that goes at the what you just said from mellow completely true this man brunson gave up like 84 million dollars to build this team and got him here and the first year they do it he'd been to get that on the back yeah he's been to get that part of it is gas because he got one less year in the deal so he could resign sooner so part of it is gas but

he did give up money whether or not the number is as biggest people think he gave up money to build a great team to get his friends in the building they put the team together he took them to heights they haven't reached 25 years

it's we're going nostalgia for nostalgia Brunson's nostalgia might be even greater 20 years from now If there's something that we knew about Carmelo

and Anthony back in them days he would never give a fucking dime he was about his dollar because he knew what was up bro at all time

and encore performance I think Brunson is also like obviously Mello like that's just a weird conversation in this frame

the peak of Brunson right now is like a better player that when we saw in Mello in the New York next uniform. Take that how you will. The shit we've seen Brunson do in a playoff setting. I feel like people don't quite comprehend the all-time great levels. He's reached as a score in, like, this is three straight years now,

of him averaging 30 points per game with that size, good efficiency, protecting the ball. He's amazing too. 43 in game one, 36 in game two. There's just games every single series where you can, just pencil in oh yeah brunce is going for 40 yeah and it's it's not even a question yeah and like mellow like better body of work obviously like especially when he's in the nuggets hit his younger years where he was a little more explosive better player i'm not saying brunton's better but playoff

performances in a next uniform i feel like brunton has a better resume yeah and mellow mellow mellow gets helped a lot because phil jackson was a dumb ass and because he came in with with his you know ideals and try and try to implement that into the team and so like he ruined everything and so that like the tail end of mellow's tenure there was just completely just out of white well no debate here apparently we all agree just out of curiosity how this is such a weird again thing to format because it's dialysically that doesn't work but insert whatever solid reliable stable point guard at the one for the new york nix today how good do you do you think the nix would be with a mellow inserted in this lineup

alongside Ogeninovi, Kat. It's super hard. I have no idea. Just because you have, your wings are there. Yeah, if you go with like your starting lineup,

it is Hart McKill, OG. And so it's like, I can't even do that. Yeah, I don't know. Worse. I think Brunton is in a lot

of carrying his style of play as a point guard is important. Lillard versus Kyrie. Chat, where are we going with this? I know this is a hot topic. I think we will be the nerds that you guys disagree with on this one

because I'm going Damien Lillard. It's always been Damien Lurie. It wasn't always, but it was settled a long time ago. If it was like 2016, a shout out. Around 2019, it stopped being in a conversation. I think Lillard kind of showed that him as a first option get you a lot further. His peaks are higher.

His consistency is better. His workload that he put on his back in the specific team as he was on is more impressive contextually. I struggle to see a good argument for Kyrie other than, wow, he's nice. That's a good argument, but no. yeah dame propped up that franchise for as long as he did i'll do a poll for this one and kairi tore down

every franchise that he went to i'm not going there like if we're just if we're talking about we're talking about like these are my point guards to lead my team and everything like you said dame better score better score better three point shooter better playmaker yeah you can you can give kairri defense fine uh someone said how is the peak higher than kairies when kairies peak is the most important shot in NBA history. Do you think peak means five-minute time period? It does not. Come on, man.

For picking a year-long peak, let alone a three-year peak, five-year peak, game is much bigger. I think if you're a GM, if any GM was to, if every GM in the NBA was to have a vote on this, who would you rather start your organization with Lillard or Kyrie? 30 out of 30. I'm definitely going to say Lillard because of all the things that you said. Lillard has been proven to be a. staple of a franchise and been able to carry teams on your back in hell hell like have years

he could take each of the Western Conference finals did he get smacked up yes does that matter absolutely not because he wasn't supposed to be there and when it comes to something like Harry Irving you every single time that he's been propped up to be that guy some shit always have some shit always goes wrong whether it be random off the course stuff injuries which is like very much a part of Carrie's career throughout the whether he's 22 years old in NBA finals back in 2015 or whatever it is, or whether it be with the Boston Celtics back in 2019, or whether it be shit that happened with the Brooklyn Nets, like things are always happening with Kyrie. But with Damien Lillard, the injuries that started to catch up to him towards the back

of his career as normal for every older player in the league. He's just better. He's just better. Like, I understand the appeal Kyrie, one of the most skill players of all time and all this stuff. Dame is clearly a better engine that leads offense, better playmaker. His style of scoring has a better gravity, creating the pick and roll, getting people open.

Like, he's just more conducive to winning games. Yeah, I hate to say this, but I think Kyrie, a lot of his props, he benefits so much in all-time conversations when it comes to playing next to LeBron James. That's the truth of it. That's the truth of it is. Again, Kyrie's amazing too, but the game's a different tier. Okay, again, still no disagreement. Hopefully we have a debate here soon.

Okay, this one we have to disagree because I don't know who the fuck is the answer here. Who had more of an impact on the NBA, Lamarcus Aldrich or DeMarcus Cousins? Stinky-ass conversation. The question isn't who's better? Who had more of an impact on the NBA? what the hell does that i'm thinking that of that in the most like cataclysmic way possible demarkis cousins did get traded to maybe it's the marcus cousins because the NBA calendar literally shifted because he got traded to the new warrants pelicans on all-star weekend and

because because of that i think the the the trade deadline got shifted back before one of the two i don't know and that's like one of the more pivotal moments in NBA history because everyone's like oh my god could they do something with the 2017 warriors warriors always struggle with double bigs and shit like that and then when it comes to marcus cousins i i mean le marcus augurs i just i just don't know what to think of him he's just someone said we got the sacred moe cataclysmic drop it's one of my favorite words of all time shout out cataclysmic this one's hard the boogie is one of those players that's going to be hard to gauge in history because his peak wasn't very long and he had his peak on bullshit teams where he was not playing a positive

brand of basketball defensively, but the team, it was the Kings, a disgusting franchise that didn't give him any type of help to make him play a better Brandon basketball, no serious coaches, no serious organization to help him be guided in the right direction. So he's good stats, bad team guy. And it's like it's true, but it's not his fault. So I'll default to Marcus Aldridge. I think he had a lot of good years across different good teams. Spurs years were awesome playing for Popovich, the back half of his prime. But I understand the boogie love. I just don't know how to parse it in history yeah the see but that's that's that's kind of the thing is that it's like someone just said boogie arguably had shack level dominance in those shorts

didn't see people say that type of stuff no not not not not to pick on him no he fucking did not like no no he did not at all like that's ridiculous impact on the NBA is kind of quick boogie feels like one of the last centers that is legitimately like first team like first team caliber where you're looking at him you're like you can't win with the center like this where you have a center so dominant offensively but they're not they're you know they're not like two-way in that you know on that on that level and so so looking at looking at guys like that you're like he's cat with good PR yeah like like I don't know if we're going to if we're actually going to get to build around you like that but I do wish

you saw bugging a better situation with a better defensive coach yeah okay uh next one who has a who was a better cousin T-Mack or Vince Carter? Who was the better cousin? Everybody obviously would default to T-Mack. At their peak, it's T-Mack and it's not close. Yeah. I say, who had a better career? If you factor in the injuries and Vince Carter.

That's not easy. Like, Vince Carter didn't do a lot with the health that he got compared to T-Mack. You know, it's not like Vince Carter racked abaculades. I don't think he has better longevity, obviously. Teac's a better peak. Which career would you rather have? I mean, T-Mack has never been out the first of all. Exactly.

And I think that's damning. Fair enough. Just be able to make it. Did he make the NBA finals? He got to the conference finals. Conference finals, yes. And seeing early in his career too, and seeing him have that ability while also like being an impactful player throughout the later half of his career, it just moves me more

compared to team back. Yeah. He definitely did more like by default. So like clearly he wins that element. Okay. Fair enough. Again, no debates yet. Tim Duncan versus Kobe Bryant.

Who was the best player of the 2000s? I mean, yeah, it's Tim Duncan. Easy. It's not like. Well, okay, but it says 2000s. A loco. No, no, it says 2000s, not full career. So this doesn't count.

No, I'm just, the first four years of that is Kobe as sidekick. And so even as great as he was, Tim got a chip in, what was it? They got one in 99, they got one in 03 and in 05. And so at least. and seven oh yeah oh three oh five oh seven you have three chips where he is the best player on on that team people talk about how oh three is one of the best you know like loki carry jobs nobody nobody just nobody cares about the like the NBA championship from 2002 to 2006 well he you say you got three is the best player Kobe got two is the best player three as the second

best player that's well i got one more and it's like that's a lot of championships like you're taking away like this is one one this is a funny way to frame it to give Kobe a chance because we cut off a championship on the back end for for tim Duncan on both sides so if you do that it's five championships versus three okay but even looking at like the individual player's side of things as well i think the on the court product of someone like tim Duncan just naturally led to more it was just more conducive to just a winning style of play and also on top of that too if i remember he won like back to back MVP's then he in no he's one he has one MVP yeah it's not to either.

Wait, no, no, no, no. Do you get back to back. Oh, you said Tim Duncan. I thought you said Kobe. Yeah, Tim Duncan. I think he won in like 2002 and 2003. That's something Kobe Bryant hasn't been able to do ever. He just has a similar.

Yeah. Whatever it is. Yeah. There's the stretch after Shaq leaves is like awesome. It's amazing because it's like, this guy is a straight killer. But it's also crazy because you get to the playoffs. And some of the stuff is just quick. Again, we talked about. on the show last year last week 2000's legacies so protected yeah if it came out if there was a game

seven and anthony edwards was playing on some trash team and he's like you know what i'm just not going to shoot in the second half because these guys don't even deserve to to play yeah we would be like what the hell you're talking like donovan's addressing Kobe PR it would it would be it would be a new era it would be slanders now mind you footwork goes a long way yeah it goes a long way with going to be right and i and i i love the forward but yeah tim's better who is better team mack or paul pierce oh it's easily paul pierce oh it's easily paul pierce easily see you said come on man i think you were going to say t mac and then he said fuck no paul pierce yeah it's fucking it's fucking paul pierce easily i understand why like easily sounds crazy but when you look at the body of work and how

paul pierce has had more success in his how success in his career of course he's played with more talented players. He had KAD, Ray Allen, and even before, you know, Rondo and all that. But his play style and seeing how he's been able to keep that longevity as well and have that translate ease more better into the playoffs moves me more than something like team. And he's a much better offball player can fit with stars. He's a very, very scalable player. He was scalable before we knew what scalable meant.

Paul Pierce is one of these scalable wings of all time. He was the man young in his career, fit next to K. agey seamlessly, obviously saying Paul Pierce better than T-Mack sounds crazy to people. What are you talking about? Timak was banned for ban with Kobe at his peak. It's not crazy to say that Paul Pierce

is not a coincidence that he won more. I always give Paul Pierce respect. Man got stabbed up, played 82 days. Shout out to you. Shout out to you. There was no such thing as low management. Staped nearly to death.

He didn't play 82 games. To death. How many times do you get stabbed? Multiple. You said it like they had a clear. He was not on death's door. They were stabbing him. His life was not on line.

I saw the people. They gutted him. It was crazy. He was. They thought they had to resuscitate him four times. But no, I mean, obviously you could say T-Mack has a higher peak individually, and you could say if T-Mack played with KG and Ray Allen, things would go different. differently, but should have could have wooded with a lot of stuff. I think there's enough reasons to go, Paul Pierce, said it's not crazy.

Yeah. He was stabbed multiple times in the face, neck, and bat. Damn! And had a bottle smashed over his head. What the fuck did he do to make him so mad? Mind you, mind you, stabbed September 25th. The season starts in October. He took like six weeks after getting stabbed, played all 82 games.

Him. Him. You got it. You got it. You got it. He deserves a man. You wonder why he lives his life like this? he's seen the other side

Zibo versus Boris Dio who would thrive more in today's NBA is Boris Dio and it's not clear Boyd Zio was every nerds favorite player Boris Dio I think is more suited for today's NBA and Zach Randolph is far less suited for today's NBA than back then I say that though he'd play five today

maybe that would doubt that would help him he'd be undersized the post game would be weird but he had some mid-range touch maybe he developed a three-pointer if he came up today the defense would be hard for me to rationalize as being good but you wouldn't like you would not like Zibo

he played too I mean Boris Dio would be such a good fit with the passing he'd just be like bigger Josh Hart so yeah there's so many dupl like there's so many juice I said juice what hell Boris Dio duplicates in the league right now and if you take shit man

if I'm looking at these Rosses right now which I am doing as we speak he said so many I can't name I can name I can name Nicholas Batum Literally, he, I take another freshman, yeah, Nicholas Batum is one, I think Alfred and Sengoon has a lot of Boris Dio.

Those are very different players. He said foreign, foreign, no, no, no. The Euros. They definitely do. They definitely do Al Horford as well. He has Boris Dio type tendencies. Okay.

Dominican is. Brother, what are we talking about? Loki, not from here? No, but like a power forward who can space a four, put the ball on the floor a little bit and do some secondary passing to a little dump-off passes, that would fit very well in today's league where there's more space, everybody. You can't play players today anymore that don't do anything offensively,

so he'd have more responsibility, more opportunities. Another comparison. If you attached 50-pound dumbbells to his ankles, Aaron Gordon, Bors D.L. Tell me on line, I'm not. No, that's a bad one. Nicholas Baton was the best one he said. You did not cook on me.

I'm sorry, that was, you cooked that bullshit. For like 40 minutes, I mean, 40 seconds. But But Toom is a good one That one's definitely close He's just a little more pudgy A little more big manish Yeah Okay

Anthony Edwards in five years versus Jalen Brunson in five years So Jalen Brunson will be 33 Still at his peak Probably like towards the back end I'm taking Anthony Edwards Just naturally I'll take at the peak

At the peak At what is supposed to be The peak of his powers at 28 Yeah I'll take that over a 33 year old Smaller guard Yeah And five years man He's gonna

going to be in crazy conversations. I think people are a little too quick to crown him right now because they see the flashes and they do what they do with a lot of players where they say you are who I think are going to be 18 months from now. But my God, do I see the goddamn vision? 18 months from now, he's going to be a demon. Five years from now, I fully believe the people that think he's going to have like an all-time peak. I don't think they're gassing. I think that's very on the table. Where Jaylon Brunson, I mean, I think he's a top-sand-player right now. And I think we did TikTok the other day where we're talking about peak versus peak and we said Tony Parker and we thought about it. And we were like, I guess that's comparable

to what Jaylon is doing in the playoffs right now. Like it's not crazy to say Jalen Brunton is currently peaking in terms of just, you know, one year peak, not accolades or whatever on par with Tony Parker. I think Tony Parker is like the 21st best point guard of all time at his peak. So Brunton is also a great player, but it's going to transcend positional conversations. Yeah, I agree. I think in five years from now we can look up and see Anthony Edwards and like, oh shit, he's like one of the three best players, four best players in the entire NBA. As good as Brunson is, I don't think he'll ever reach those fights. Tull.

Two years from now, three years from now, five years from now, it's just not happening. Man, we are going to no disagreements on these. The only player they'll be better than Victim Women Yama next season will be Nicole Yolkich. Hey, man, listen, they got the blood clots out, right? Demon might come home. They got him out. They shook him out.

No, I mean, it's wrong. I still think, like, he's still not going to be better. he's probably not going to be better than than Yonis next year he's not going to be better than Shay probably Luca presuming that he comes back

Skinny which is saying Streets is saying he's been out here he's been on weight watches right he's been eating lots of salads a lot of greens his plates are very colorful if he comes back and we get like Skinny Luca again I mean that's top three He'd been on that hydroxy cup man

I see you know when I see it I think Wimby's going to be like, I won't be shocked at all if he makes a leap and he's like in those conversations with the guys you just named. If you tell me year through Wimby is in convos with Shay, Yannis, et cetera, that's in the realm of possibility. But to say he's better than all of them, that's asking a lot for a guy that's still incredibly young. I mean, but he, when he got shut down, we're like, all right, so Vicks, what, like seven? Yeah, he could be tough five for sure. He's up there. Yeah, especially with Tatum out next year too, he very much, I think he could be.

And even Tatum was here. He could be as good as Tatum next year. that wouldn't be unbelievable. It would be on the high end. You're still expecting a leap that you can't assume, but that wouldn't shock me. Oh,

I miss watching him play. That's crazy. I saw highlights yesterday. People would say it was like a... Oh, it was that Ben Usher account, right? Yeah, yeah, he tweeted it. Brett. Brett Usher.

And he was like, Wembe a year two bag work or something like that and he was killing people one-on-on-one. I was like, what the fuck was going on, man? Yeah. He's crazy.

Okay. Runner-up MVP Luca last year was better than MVP Shade this year. People always see runner-up. People forget Luke was. third place yeah he ever's like 34 nine and eight or some fucking stupid shit like bad take is it really a bad take this is a debate i mean wait i mean i'm just i'm just saying because he said run around okay got to oh yeah but no this is this is actually a tough one um i'm i'm gonna say

i'm gonna say yes you think luke's better yeah i think like loop yeah what we saw from from luka last year was actually crazy and the only reason why it did it why it doesn't get you know like memorialized was because Yo-Hitch is Yohic and we're watching, you know, one of like the 15 best players of all time at their peak. Lucas averaging like 34, 10, and 9 and leading that team. And they're another team where second half of the year looks completely different than the first half. Post-trade deadline, they're a great team.

I struggle with this because, like, on the surface, like, oh, 34, 10, and 9, all the numbers are bigger. And, like, the point three-bonds assists are more impressive. Shea is that type of player, though, that obviously isn't the past who Luca is. So Luca has that in his regard. The defense makes up for that conversation, I think. Yeah, exactly.

And the score is as comparable as well. Yeah, and like, Lucas style, he's a higher usage, more ball-nominate guy, so he's going to have the better points rebounds assist. It's no coincidence that Shea led his team to a top three offense with very few offensive creators around him. Like, his style of scoring is just as impactful, I think, as a guy who's a better passer. So it's not a wash.

I think it's a very, very close conversation where a lot of, like, NBA Twitter will pretend that Luca's on another level. Yeah, I agree. I agree. I might give Luca the slight edge, but it's a very tough conversation. It's like you said, She averaged 33 points last year.

And the carry job is, like from Shea offensively is... Yeah. Bro, when's his next? Some of these games, even in the playoffs, have we had games, we've had it bogs down, and they double team him,

and you see Alice Caruso and Casey Wallace have to create with the ball in their hands. You're like, fuck! And you take into account that Chet missed all those games or even less help. Like, he carried so much offensively,

and it doesn't look same because the assist numbers are not the same but the style of play he has is just as conducive to leading good offense yeah i think i still will go go looka though but she you're right it's not it's not a crazy gap yeah i'll go look at too because i'm like i can't get i'm i'm no better than the average biased man like i i still think luca too but i don't think it'll be a coincidence that we might see shay have more impact style of play wise over the years yeah so that this will always be a fun debate. Brunson versus D. Mitch, who is a better

undersized guard? Is Brunson? And it's not, well, I'm not going to say it's not close, but is Brunson. I do think that it is decided. That's close. It's close as fuck. It's extremely close. It's like the ninth best player in the world versus 11 through 12. So it's inherently close. I just feel like Brunson's earned it. Like, he's been so crazy in the playoffs so consistently just continues to raise the bar and carry his team to heights.

But that I also, in many other debates, I don't ever want to default. to the guy who's just like won more because it's such a team dynamic. But they're winning because of Brunson's fucking bag. He is crazy. He has a one-on-one score. Yeah.

I feel like he's earned it. He's earned it. I agree with you. But looking in between the lines of their game, I'm just going to say Brunson's a better score. I can't, as good of a score Donovan Mitchell is he had a, he genuinely regressed in the regular season. Give Jayla Brunson D.P.O.I.

We're getting the chip. Yeah. Chips by the way. Like, yeah, Mitchell's not a better passer. Not really a better playmaker when it matters. I think Mitchell's playmaking is underrated. It's not sure. It's not, damn near chalk, if you ask.

That's what I'm saying. Like, it's not, it's not something that Mitchell holds over him. They're both solid, not amazing passers. They're both good enough there. DeMitch is a better defender. He's not a great defender. He's not impactful, but he's better than Brunson, who's just little. Wingspan merchant, for sure.

Literally wingspan merchant precisely. So everything is close enough that I'm going to default to the guy who for three years now has been just the most consistent playoff score in the NBA. Yeah. He deserves it. He deserves it. But it's close for sure. You could do the context, which space is all you want.

I don't know, but all I know is Brunson has the small man crown right now. It sounds so awkward because I'm pretty sure Donovan Mitchell's, he has a better resume right now. He just made All-M-Bee first team. He's been all-a-bushed as fuck. That was the most I love Donald Mitchell. That was the most undeserved first-team pick I've seen in years. Wow. The fact that Anthony Edwards was second team and was better than Dematch had everything this year,

it was crazy he got there because of the team success in which he was not the most important player on his team this year and took a backseat to let everybody else eat was not the most impactful player night in night out and he got the first team nod because of the wins that was crazy yeah i think i think me personally i would have put in first team as well but you know i like the way you're talking yeah again and dmitch is great so maybe i'm being dramatic but it was shocking i think i was very shocked okay but then he's amazing too Also, demons have never been out the second round

Brunson has. Tough. And that's the last one. Damn, no real debate today. So we reacted to your hot takes essentially. And we all agreed. Got it. Wow.

And with that being said, that's the end of the stream. Appreciate all y'all coming through, watching Donovan's hilarious crash out. Mixing seven. It's on the way. I'm not sure. Mixing 11 and 13 and 15. All right.

I respect it. It's all the way. Appreciate all y'all. We'll see y'all on Friday. for the next episode.