The Delta Flyers - Crossover

Episode Date: October 15, 2024

The Delta Flyers is hosted by Garrett Wang, Robert Duncan McNeill, Terry Farrell & Armin Shimerman. In each podcast release, they will recap and discuss an episode of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine. This week’s episode, Crossover, is hosted by Garrett Wang, Robert Duncan McNeill, Armin Shimerman, and special guest Nana Visitor.Crossover: Operational difficulties while traversing the wormhole send Kira and Bashir into a hostile alternate universe.Be sure to check out Nana's book: Star Trek: Open a Channel: A Woman's TrekWe want to thank everyone who makes this podcast possible, starting with our Production Managers Megan Elise & Rebecca McNeill.Additionally, we could not make this podcast available without our Executive Producers:Stephanie Baker, Jason M Okun, Marie Burgoyne, Kris Hansen, Chris Knapp, Janet K Harlow, Rich Gross, Mary Jac Greer, Mike Gu, Tara Polen, Carrie Roberts, Tom Paynter, AJC, Nicholaus Russell, Lisa Robinson, Alex Mednis, Holly Schmitt, James H. Morrow, Roxane Ray, Andrew Duncan, David Buck, Tim Neumark, Randy Hawke, Ian Ramsey, Feroza Mehta, Jonathan Brooks, Matt Norris, Izzy Jaffer, Jan Hanford, Sam Mikelic, Francesca Garibaldi, Thomas Irvin, & Jonathan CappsOur Co-Executive Producers:Liz Scott, Sab Ewell, Sarah A Gubbins, Luz R., Michelle Z, Utopia Science Fiction Magazine, Courtney Lucas, Elaine Ferguson, Captain Jeremiah Brown, E & John, Deike Hoffmann, Anna Post, Shannyn Bourke, Lee Lisle, Sarah Thompson, Holly Smith, Amy Tudor, Mark G Hamilton, KMB, Dominic Burgess, Sandra Stengel, Normandy Madden, Joseph Michael Kuhlman, Darryl Cheng, Elizabeth Stanton, Tim Beach, Victor Ling, Shambhavi Kadam, Tae Phoenix, Donna Runyon, Nicholas Albano, Danie Crofoot, Steve Lugo, Rob Traverse, Penny Liu, Stephanie Lee, David Smith, Stacy Davis, Heath K., Andrew Cano, Kevin Harlow, & Hailey Lugo, & Chris GarisAnd our Producers:Philipp Havrilla, James Amey, Patrick Carlin, Jake Barrett, Ann Harding, Trip Lives, Samantha Weddle, Paul Johnston, Carole Patterson, Warren Stine, Jocelyn Pina, Mike Fillmon, Chad Awkerman, Mike Schaible, AJ Provance, Claire Deans, Maxine Soloway, Barbara Beck, Heidi McLellan, Brianna Kloss, Dat Cao, Stephen Riegner, Debra Defelice, Alexander Ray, Vikki Williams, Cindy Ring, Alicia Kulp, Kelly Brown, Jason Wang, Gabriel Dominic Girgis, Maria Rosell, Heather Choe, Michael Bucklin, Lisa Klink, Dominique Weidle, Justin Weir, Jesse Bailey, Mike Chow, Kevin Hooker, Matt Edmonds, Miki T, Heather Selig, Rachel Shapiro, Stephanie Aves, Seth Carlson, Amy Rambacher, Jessica B, E.G. Galano, Annie Davey, Jeremy Gaskin, Charlie Faulkner, Estelle Keller, Greg Kenzo Wickstrom, Lauren Rivers, Jennifer B, Dean Chew, Linda Daireaux, Mars DeVore, Robert Allen Stifflerf, Jennifer Vaughn, PJ Pick, Preston M, Rebecca Leary, Ryan Mahieu, Matt Smith, Andrew Cook-Feltz, Karen Galleski, Zackery Voss, Loretta Reyes, Timothy McMichens, Dawn Colleen Smith, Cassandra Girard, Andrea Wilson, Willow Whitcomb, Jadzia Mehari, Mo, Leslie Ford, & Douglas Lawrence-Plant, &Scott BowlingThank you for your support!This Podcast is recorded under a SAG-AFTRA agreement.“Our creations are protected by copyright, trademark, and trade secret laws. Some examples of our creations are the text we use, artwork we create, audio, and video we produce and post. You may not use, reproduce, or distribute our creations unless we give you permission. If you have any questions, you can email us at [e-mail] Sponsors:* Check out Mint Mobile: https://mintmobile.com/TDFSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-delta-flyers/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Greetings, everyone, welcome to the Delta Flyers Journey Through the Wormhole with Quark, Dax, and their good friends, Tom and Harry. Join us as we make our way through episodes of Star Trek Deep Space 9. For the complete and amazing version of this podcast, please check out patreon.com forward slash the Delta Flyers and sign up to become a patron today. Your host for today's podcast episode are my fellow Trek actors, Armand Shimmerman, Robert Duncan McNeil, and myself Garrett Wong. And today we have

a very, very special VIP guest with us, our co-host and also fellow Trek actor, Nana Visitor. Welcome to Na Na Na Na Na Na Na Na Na. So exciting. You're back. She's here again. I know. It's so exciting. Special.

Special. Nana, I want to hear about book, though. Since we talked to you last, I think your book has come out. What's happening with that? Right now, it's number one in its category, which is... Oh, great. Great. For me, and I have an Instagram account called Nana Open Channel, where I'm giving bits and pieces that didn't get into the book. I mean, it's 300 pages. It could have easily been a thousand, so there's lots of stuff that didn't make it in. Wow. And the exact title, which we have not said, is of the book. Open a channel. A woman's track. The women of Star Trek, yes. Oh, the women of Star Trek. Okay. Great. Being number one on Amazon, that's incredible. That's incredible. In my category.

In your category, though. Yeah. But still. Hey, I took a picture of it. It's like, wow, that's, that's fun. I have to say, Garrett. Yes. So we talked to Andy Robinson, recently. We did. He wrote a book. Armand, we know, has written a book. Nana has written a book. Or two. Or three or four, five, or six. Gareth, what is wrong with us? What are we doing, Robbie? Why are we sitting on the sidelines? We have our book of poetry we've released. That's true. We haven't actually written a book of fiction or nonfiction or any type of other pros. You guys are, you guys are impressive. Yes, but none of us have done blogs the way you have. That's true. Thank you. We appreciate that.

true that's right well good luck with the book really excited about that i can't wait to read it and i think and i think our listeners and our viewers are also going to be quite excited to get a hold of that book they should go out and buy it now yes yeah got a birthday to talk about vicki williams october 18th happy birthday vicky happy birthday vicky happy birthday bickie happy birthday Happy birthday. Do we not sing? Happy birthday to you. Happy birthday to you.

Happy birthday. Oh, my God. That was... Happy birthday. I think it was better than we think. It's the Zoom thing. I think, you know what happened? I think Nana was trying to lead and Robbie was trying to lead at the same time

so that it became just like, ah, that always happens to me. That always happens to me. Well, Vicki Williams, that was the most unique happy birthday song of all. Happy birthday to you. Vicki, call it quits now. Just forget about the rest of your birthday. That's it. Yes.

You'll never have anything better than that one. All right. Happy birthday, Vicki. Story by Peter Allen Fields. Played by Peter Allen Fields and Michael Pillar, and directed by none other than David Livingston, who watched the 1949 Carol Reed movie The Third Man for Inspiration.

Interesting. There's a lot of bizarre camera angles. I'm sure that David was inspired that. That was a lot of it, too, yeah, for sure. Did you think I really enjoyed the camera angles in this episode, ultimately, because the very last line, spoiler, alert, but the very last line that Nana has, where she says, we went through the looking glass or we went to the other side of the looking glass or something.

As soon as you said that, Nana, I was like, oh, Alice in Wonderland, that's why David was so Dutch angle and weird and, you know, because it was, it was like being in Wonderland, which he justified it for me. A very dark, bizarre, and scary Wonderland. Yes, but that was his point, using those crazy angles to show that it was the mirror universe. Can I read his little quote here from David? David Livingston commented on the filming of the episode that it was a killer. I don't usually call Michael Pillar to comment on the scripts,

but when I read the draft, I just called him and said, cool, and hung up. It was not a pleasant experience for me because of all the pressure. It was just not fun. I wanted it to be a lot more than it is, but I'm glad to do it. It's one of the most expensive episodes we've ever done. We had more prosthetic makeup because the station,

is inhabited by Klingon, Kardashians, and the humans are basically slaves, so they're wearing different costumes. We had swing sets that were huge, like the mining set, and very complicated to shoot. The shooting time was long because of the look and because of special effects like smoke and steam and that kind of thing. Lots of smoke. Plus, we did make changes in the sets themselves, like quarks, in which we replaced the big graphic in the bar with the symbol that had represented the Bajorans, Clingons, and Cardassians melted together. So that's here. So that's, his quote on this. It was a very different one episode. I didn't even think about the expense of it. Yeah. Because you've got to redress the entire set. Just putting the knot in with herself had to be

expensive. Oh my goodness. That one scene was 12 hours. I bet it was. Wow. Yeah. Oh. Because you've got costume changes. You've got to shoot half of it and then shoot the other half. And I noticed also hair changes. It's not just costume changes. It's hair changes as well. Yeah. Wow. Is it this, oh, so much going on. And the way they did it, I'm sure they have hipper ways of doing it now, but you had to remember where on your body your arm was if you made any kind of a move because that's the only way you could fit yourself in. So it was spatially very difficult to get it exactly right again.

To maintain that continuity was very difficult. wow yeah yeah and I was even thinking like you know quite often you had scenes where you were facing yourself talking to yourself right and it's easy to figure out the picture of that like you do a split screen that's a pretty straightforward visual effect but the fact you stayed in that shot the 50 50 with dialogue going back and forth and back and forth it's the timing because you can't it's very hard to slide the timing of one side or the other so Do you recall, oh, I guess we can jump to this, do you recall, like, did you shoot one side

and then were you acting to the sound of playback? Like, were you acting to your own voice, or were they reading it? I don't think, no, I think it was red. I'm pretty sure it was red. I don't remember doing it to my own voice at all. So just the script supervisor there on the set with you, that was it. That's really tricky for the audio timing, the dialogue timing there.

Which side did you do first? Do you remember? I think I did Kira first. okay and then they were after okay the intended yeah yeah but it was just so and so that was six hours one side yeah hours the other it was just unbelievably long i'm gonna i'm gonna i'm gonna guess and uh you had a force call every single day of this episode i mean to this you got the armin shimmerman treatment you got the arm yeah you got the overtime oh my goodness uh the original script title of this episode was detour, detour before crossover.

Michael Pillard commented, he said, we've been pitched mirror mirror sequels ever since Star Trek the next generation began, but I wasn't interested. But I couldn't get away from the fact that it would be interesting to know what happened after Mirror Mirror finished. I couldn't escape the idea that Kirk's influence

in the world that he'd left might have been profound and changed history. What would be more of a gross violation of the prime directive? Ira said, what if he actually screwed things up? Spock listened to what he said, and then they turned this evil empire into a much more gentle empire

that was conquered and taken over by the Klingons, the Kardashians, and others. I was watching Schindler's lists, and I was thinking, if I were a little older, I could have been in one of those camps in Poland. If Germany had won the war, I would not be here doing what I am today.

I guarantee you, I was very pleased with the way that this script turned out. So I was very happy with this script. Yeah, it's great. It's great. Great story. Great premise. All right. So let's go with these guest stars very quickly.

All right. Our first guest star is John Cawthrin Jr. as Telak. So John Catherine Jr. has played three roles in episodes of Star Trek, New Doc in the TNG episode The Chase, Telak in this episode, DS9, and Grellach in Enterprise, the episode The Shipment. He also played Dr. Bennington Baraka in the video game, Star Trek. org. He's a very, very nice guy and a very talented actor and he's a acclaimed stage actor as well. What a voice. Yeah, great voice. Great voice. He's got a classical background so it makes him easy to cast in Star Trek. Yeah. Also another quick fact is Michael Dorn was supposed to appear in this episode as Wharf. But really? Yeah, he was filming the series finale for TNG so he could not make it.

His lines were given to Andy Robinson and the lines intended. for Elam Garrick were then used to create the character of Telak. So Telak was the winner here because Telak got some lines, basically. Michael Dorn's lines. That's interesting that they were trying to do that. Well, the lines that Andy Robinson had went to Telak, and the lines that Michael Dorn had went to Andy Robinson. So I think Andy got an upgrade is what it sounds like. Sounds like that was a last-minute thing.

Like, they really were trying to plan for Michael to do it. Yeah, for sure. You know, just to switch character lines, that's a last-minute thing. Usually they want to start over and really be more specific about that. With all due respect to my great friend Michael Dorn, I'm really glad to Andy did it because I think what Andy provides in this episode, Michael would have had to strain for whereas it comes naturally to Andy. Oh, fire.

Andy was great, wasn't it? Andy was so good. Especially coming on the heels of the last episode. Yeah. The Wire where we reveal so much. backstory and now to have this episode. Great. Yeah. All right. Let's get into our poetry synopsis. Let's start off with Robbie. Okay, Robbie. Let's hear your liberty here. Here is my poetry synopsis for the episode crossover. Kira and Bashir are stuck in a timeline morass. And the mirror world

is a total contrast. Odo's now just some goo in our mirror universe debut. Things get weird when you go through the looking glass. Oh, nice limerick. Thank you. Thank you. Very nice. Yeah. I can't possibly cover the depths of this episode.

No, it's just the sheer scale of this episode. It's like a feature film. It's so much going on. All right. Here's my haiku. Here's my haiku for this episode. Here we go. Kira Doc, team up.

Mirror Universe. Oh, my. Bashir slapped a lot. I was good about that. Yes, very good. Welcome to my world. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Armin, Armin, did you feel a little bit of pleasure

watching another series regular getting roughed up and man-handled? No pleasure, no pleasure, just awareness and commiseration. That's all. You know, watching that first scene with Sidig and me, I went, oh, were they tested? our our chemistry or something yeah because i forgot totally that that we that it was ever a thing that he ever went hey let's have dinner uh oh at it now i go oh were they and then they went nope that's funny speaking of my slapping reference ravi did you when you saw that happen to

and your team bashir you you always yes i'm totally When you watched him get slapped, did it remind you of the Voyager episode where the doctor slapped you more than we do? Yes. Yes. Exactly. It's the same bit. The doctor slapping me over and over. Anyway, all right. Next up, we have Armin with the etymology. So I found it interesting doing some research that the word crossover doesn't really exist. It does, but it doesn't. I've looked in three dictionaries. And the definitions for crossover primarily have to do with patterns on material that it if it go it that patterns that don't run up and down but crosswise like and weave or something yeah and and the other definition for

crossover was how trains will go from one track to another that's called a crossover but but the actual idea of crossover which makes perfect sense to us doesn't really exist in any dictionary that I could find Wow. That's fascinating because it does seem like a common word, but it sounds like it's more modern than we would imagine. And it's a bit of us, not slang, but yeah, it's developed more recently. And because I couldn't find any definitions for crossover, I'd hunted for another word, and that is intended. Uh-huh. Intendant, yes. It comes from the ancient French. Intendant. It's a past parcel of Intender. It was first used in English.

in 1591. It's one who has the charge, direction, or superintendents of a department of public business. The affairs of a town or province uses a title for certain public officers in France and elsewhere. Very interesting. It almost sounds in that definition like not a bureaucrat, but more of like an overseer, like a overseer, very much managing. A governor. But Shakespeare would call a governor. Yes. Yeah. Interesting. French, entendon. on don't do on to do all okay so this episode starts with a medical log which i love on your show that i think on our show we had our captain give every single captain's log except maybe one or two the doctor might have done it once and maybe jacote but you guys seem to spread it out he says

major care and i returning home after opening the hospital on new bejor the first pejoran colony in the gamma quadrant which i thought that was kind of a big deal like bayjore's Now, moving out, you know, the Bajorans are moving into the gamma quadrant. This felt like, oh, they're moving into the gamma quadrant. Everybody's, this wormhole is really given new opportunities to everybody. So I thought that was cool. Anyway, we cut inside the runabout. They're headed back home.

Kira wants to meditate. I love this sequence, this comedic runner. I wrote down, Bashir can't shut the fuck up. Oh, that's what I wrote. She tries to meditate. He does some weird crazy breathing. He offers to play some music and he knows all these Bajoran composers. He asks if he can call her Norese and ask her to dinner.

It starts to get a little awkward. I'm actually having thought about this scene for a little while this morning while I was waking up. I thought, very good idea. They set up Bashir as slightly incompetent, enjou, pain in the ass. and look at what he becomes during the course of the episode. Belize that. Yes. And again, as we just did the wire, again, we watched the maturation process of Bashir.

And also, we have the opposite. It's true. Kira is nonplussed by Bashir's naivete. And yet during the course of the episode, she does everything she does. can to save his life. Yeah. Yeah. So it's a good way to start.

It's a good arc for the two characters in this particular episode. Yeah, for sure. So, Nanah, you were saying that you did not remember that opening scene initially when you, is that what it was? No, no. I always think fascination was Siddiggs and my, you know, the spark between us. But this episode is really, he tries with, with, yeah, he gives it a shot. Well, I mean, when he's, when he mentions the Bajoran composer, you, you, you quit,

Kira, not you, your portrayal of that character is, I think she's like, what? She's very like, oh, surprising, yeah. Yeah, but in a good way, but in a good way, I felt, you played it like, hey, I, this guy is kind of, he's more interesting than I thought than I thought he was exactly so yeah it made sense that he asked you to dinner so I and then all sudden it gets awkward yeah and then it back also also Bashir did the bellows breath breathing which is pretty impressive yeah his enthusiasm doing that maybe yeah yeah maybe not you know a big turn on but it's impressive but it's impressive it's unforgettable yeah yes

It's indicative of, again, of perhaps the shallowness of the character, indicative of the youth of the character, indicative of the character, indicative of, I used to a word, the ingenuity, I'm perhaps, ingenuity. A French word. That's French. Of his character. And again, the maturation process during this episode, as it was in the wire, is very, is very, very. very good for the character of Bashir, who has, in my humble opinion, has sort of been left behind so far in the series. We haven't seen him come up as much as the other characters have.

And I'm very glad to see that about Sid's character here and in Enwire. Just as they go inside the wormhole, they get some engine problems, and they make it through. But on the other side, there's no station, empty space. Suddenly a Klingon Bird of Prey comes in. and two clangons with weapons drawn, beam on. But then they seem really confused. They look at Akira, and they seem confused.

They apologize and said, we'll escort you back. And did anyone notice them when they were going through the wormhole that the camera sort of fritzed just by happenstance? My computer froze. And the screen had like two images at the same time. And I thought, oh, David has done something to indicate that we've gone through a temporal anomaly. Wow.

I did not catch that. Yeah, it did look a little more, yes, visually interesting this journey through the wormhole this time. In fact, I didn't remember seeing all the lighting effects on actors' faces. This seemed more than I'd ever seen before. So maybe they did want to make this a little more, a little different vibe going through the wormhole because it's the mirror universe. Right. I mean, literally, my computer froze just in the right moment, and there are two images on. my screen at the same time it's not that they're bleeding into them that you can see it's there's a

jump there's a jump from one to the other um and i thought oh david has done something to indicate what we just talked to them yeah yeah exactly huh well when the klingons do beam in that is the beginning of these crazy angles they're shooting literally up the noses of every very low it's just the lowest i've ever seen uh but that is his way of of depicting that we are now in the mirror universe so it was quite effective. You remember, no, no, those low angles? Because David used them a lot in this episode. And my first thought when I saw the low angles was, oh, David was using a low angle prism or some toy. Like, like sometimes I remember David would be, he would be on the cutting edge of like, oh, there's this new lens or this new toy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm going to try, I'm going to embrace that for this episode. And those low angles felt very specific to like a low angle prism or a snorkel lens or one of those toys that you might put.

I just wouldn't have been, I wouldn't have been aware. I was so, it was so much work. Work for you. Yeah. Yeah. And so much concentration. Everything that went, you know, it was like below water. It was, it wasn't in my consciousness.

You know, there's a union rule, and I don't remember exactly that if you play two different characters, is it right, Rob? Yes, it is. You have to get two different salaries. Yes. They didn't pay. No. Welcome to Paramount. yeah oh wow yeah there is a union rule if you play twins but i forget what it yeah i see to go

both patty duke got got double salary when she did the patty dukes show yeah yeah no i shoot that email to paramount right now they owe you for uh yeah that'll be a fair yeah that'll work can i have my mere universe pay check yeah with interest please yes with interest yeah that's interesting i yeah there is a union there is a rule there is a role that playing twins or um because they are different characters and in this this is a different this is the intendant not kira so yeah you should have gotten bonus oh although at one time they do call the intendant kira i noticed oh really maybe that's the maybe that's how they got around it because everyone should have gotten technically miles o'brien you know yes column should

have gotten he's playing a different avery brooks yes every brooks yes but maybe because they kept their character names the same. That was the loophole or something, Paramount God. It probably wasn't a loophole. They just didn't do it. They just didn't do it. No, we're not. Interestingly enough, Armand only plays mirror universe quark.

Right. Not Alpha Quadrant. Yeah, that's right. Not in there at all. Jake Sisko is not in this episode at all. And they said that Jake was never born in the mirror universe. So he's the only Star Trek character that doesn't have a mirror universe. character at all, so. And it occurred to me that it's very strange. There is no mirror universe

Bashir either. Oh, that's true. There's only enough a quadrant for Shere. Yes. Oh. Oh, how funny. In this episode, but is there a mirror universe Bashir in future episodes possibly. I think there is, but I don't remember. I think there is. Yeah. Here, there's future episodes. There are future mirror universe episodes. Thanks a lot for spoiler. I'm so sorry. I just read it. Okay. Well, Anyway, so they come back, escorted by the Klingons. We see Garrick and a Klingon approaching the docking door. And they're talking about, you know, the Klingon's saying she looked just like her. She can't be an imposter.

So we're like, wait a minute, what are you talking about here? And Garrick is also in a Kardassian military uniform, which I don't think we've seen. No, you've never seen that. First time. And Andy's vocal quality is completely different for this character as opposed to Garek in Alpha Quadrant. He did such a good job. I really enjoyed it. Well, Garrick and the Klingon approached the door.

Bashir and Kira walk out, surprised at Garek's outfit. They notice it too. And suddenly another Kira approaches in a leather body suit and asks, who are you guys? The question is, who are you? Can we talk about that suit? No, no. What was it like to wear that? Was it super hot?

What was it made of? What are we looking at? It was rubber. Rubber. It was hot. It was very hot. And they used to get this six foot because just I would start to sweat. And what they didn't think about is that when I sweat, you'd see it.

And it just, the suit would darken. So I'd have a big dark spot on my stomach, a big dark, dark spots under my arms, not sexy. So they got like a six foot fan. And I used to have to stand in front of it between take. to be dry and so when I wasn't filming in that suit I was like this interestingly

they did not loop it's it's the only time I hear the suit is in this episode they must have gone what we do either they went we have to leave it alone but you hear it squeaking

it squeaked a lot was it like a rubber like a fetish suit like the kind of Well, in the 90s, that was happening. There was a lot of S&M fashion. Fashion influence. That was leaking into high fashion, Vogue and bizarre, would have all these S&M things.

Designers were doing it a lot. And I think Bob Blackman got some inspiration from that. It was definitely fetishistic with all the straps and stuff. So super hot, super hot, obviously. Super hot. What about the little headband? That was comfortable, at least, right? Or was that bad, too?

No. It was made, I don't know, paper, machet, metal. I don't know what it was. Oh, it was hard. But it was hard. Oh. And it attached in the back. So it wasn't, it couldn't be attached in the front.

So whenever someone kissed me, which happened a lot, if they touched the back of my head, it would raise up comically. So it was like, whoop every time. That's fun. I admit. It doesn't look hard, though. When you look at it, it looks like a cloth. It's not. It's actually, oh, my goodness. It's like a crown. It was solid. Yeah. Well, we finish our teaser with two Kira's, one fetish Kira and one regular Kira. Yeah. We come back. They're informed that they are on the Terek Nore station. That's where they are. And it's the center of authority for the Bajoran sector. Kira and Bashir, very concerned. confused. Kiri even tries to go back. She's like, well, just go back on her ship. And they stop her. But Shear tries to insist. He kind of raises his voice. And Garrick gets really angry about that. Calls him a Terran. And Keir number two, I didn't know who she was at this point. I just called her Keira number two.

The fetish, Kira. It says, take him below, put him to work. So this is weird. They're hauled away. For me, because I didn't know about this mirror universe thing, it was very confusing. And I'd never heard a Terran before. This was all new to me. We go to the promenade next. We see a different-looking promenade. This is where all that money went, Armin. They've got a slave workforce of Terrans. We start to see all the humans are the workforce,

and Cardassians and Klingons are in charge. It's a slave labor station. They're running the place. A prisoner's brought over accused of trying to escape. Kira sends them to the mines. The defendant does. Yes, I'm sorry. Yes, I wrote down Kira because I didn't know who she was.

Fetish, Kira. Fetish, Chira. There you go. Sends him to work, has a little pity on him because Garek wants to kill him. Yeah. But Garek says, I want to interrogate him, and she agrees. But we see the status here right away that the intendant is in charge because she says to Garrick, fine, you can interrogate him, but if he dies, I'm going to make an example of you.

so the power dynamic there it's it was very interesting i don't know who that actor was he was uh i like that actor tell when i when i first saw him i thought wow did they cast max out of makeup uh because i thought for a moment it was max kredenchek and then no it wasn't but but just for a moment i thought wow oh interesting yeah that could be possible that's yeah sure yeah absolutely i like this actor though I thought he was great a lot of times in some of these smaller roles you know performances aren't always as nuanced as I thought this actor did I think I thought he did a really great job for having so little time and dialogue in there who are you talking about the Klingon or the human what do you the human guy because he's looking down he's very

you know submissive and scared and it was just very nuanced in a way that often for smaller roles you don't see agreed and remember when when a day play comes on to our set, especially that set, which is so bizarre. Everything around them is new. They're in Wonderland. Another world. Really? In reality, the actor is in Wonderland, and they've got people around them that look bizarre, and it is, I always felt for the day players

because, you know, what have I gotten myself into? We were all used to it with second nature to us, but to these guys who only have one day's work. My God, what a bizarre feeling that must be to act and not know where to look. Really, literally, not nowhere to look. And having done a lot of guest stars, the awful truth is, you know, if you get the lines out that they're pretty much going to go on. If one of the leads needs another take to get something better, it'll happen.

So they just have to hope they get their lines out. Yeah. You know. However, go ahead. However, David Livingston was directing, so probably the guy has some time. He was 40, 50 takes, maybe. This day player got 30 takes of his. Ladies and gentlemen, David is a brilliant director, but he likes a, he loves to do lots and lots and lots of takes.

I forgot about that. So that guy got to say 0 413 Theta, like 50 times. So he was, that's why he was so good. He was exhausted. He was so tired. It was a real exhaustion that you saw after the 55th take from David Livingston. You're exaggerating, but I think I did one with David 55 takes. Oh, God.

I think so. Armine, really? Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Wow. I've seen, what was the longest you saw on Voyager, Rob? Because I'm going to say, I saw 18, 19, but not into. I saw it in the 20s.

You saw 20s? Oh, my. Yeah. Okay. To David's defense. When I've directed before, you know, a lot of times in a scene, you'll each set up, we'll get a different slate designation. So the first setup will be, you know, take one.

And then the second one will be Apple. They'll add a letter in Baker and Charlie and they'll go through the alphabet, A, B, C. I've done shows where I go through the entire alphabet and we come back around because it's an action scene and there's so many setups that you've got 30 or 40 setups in the scene. So you go to Z and then you go back to Apple, Apple, Baker, B, or I've done that before. That's embarrassing when that happens.

But, you know, and again, to David's defense, having those multiple takes as actors, you definitely feel like you've gotten every bit of it out when you're done with that scene. Like, I'm done. I'm good. There's nothing else I could do here. Yeah, there's nothing else I can do. I've done at all.

So, yeah. All right. Or processing. Or processing. We see Miles O'Brien or someone who looks like Miles. Yeah. in the ore processing print but he's very

timid and kind of meek and yeah very different than than we're used to see models not happy, not smiling Bashir arrives Odo asks him his designation this is where we get into our slap scenes

no joking rule of obedience number 14 slaps him he asks more questions gets more slaps Odo does not believe he's a doctor sends him to process some more. And at the end of the scene, Bashir and Miles kind of share a look,

which I thought was interesting. I guess Miles O'Brien was just looking at this new guy who's giving him creepy looks and being weirded out by Bashir. Yeah. So did anyone feel the same way I did? And it may be that I'm prejudiced or see things from a certain prison. But rule of obedience, doesn't that just sound a little like rule of acquisition? Yes.

It did. It did very much like that. But I just love this scene, though, just because it's so comical to me to watch the slapping happening over and over again and I did not find that comical. Okay, sorry. But Shear had to earn the fact that he blows Odo up.

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's the only reason. That's the payoff then? For that. Yeah. And I have some problems about that.

But okay. Okay. You have problems with Odo getting blown? up. Oh, what? Oh, we'll get to it, yeah. All right, we'll get to it. Yeah, I'm excited about it. I know. Okay, we go in the intendant's office.

Before we go inside, though, there's the high shot out in Ops from way up high. David found a whole new angle. I don't know if you remember this, but as you were walking in the big wide shot, you see the Klingon or whatever that combo thing on the floor. Yeah. I was just impressed that David found a new angle that I had never seen Ops from that angle. It was pretty cool. Kira and the intendant walk into the commander's office.

We learned that this is a mirror universe, that the intendant knows all about it, same people on the other side, just different personalities, basically. They talk about James T. Kirk, when they switched places in the mirror universe. They start bringing in some of this old mythology. And let's see, now it's Klingons and Kordassians running the place. Bejo replied after the Terran occupation, we hear this word again, Terrans. And we're starting to put together that this is humans or Terrans in this world. I think this is the scene where some of that sorts coming together.

Yeah, great scene, though. I mean, do you remember Nanah shooting this? This is the, was this the 12-hour scene? It was a 12-hour scene, yeah, I do remember. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, it was just, it was very intense in terms of being precise and not letting the performance get technical on both sides. Right.

that was that was what i what my intention was because if i if i did this i had to know exactly where in space that was yeah that i could match it exactly wow people that are just uh listening to the podcast nanad just made a move where her hand is sort of like you know she just showed her inches away yeah inches away that she couldn't match it every time she had a match that she had to have the continuity going so uh not easy. And I'm just looking at these lines. What a massive monologue to describe the Kirk coming in 100 years ago. Look how long that was that she had to go through that and do this thing at the same time. My goodness. Oh, yeah, yay. Woo. More power to you. Yeah. It was very

impressive. Yes. Yes. We do learn in this scene. Kira's kind of real life, Kira, is playing, you know, you were playing the scene very impressed with, wow, but Jorans have power here. And you're such a strong leader. And I was kind of wondering, like, at this point in watching it, I was like, wait, is she just kissing up? Is she trying to manipulate her? Is she really feeling these things? Do you recall, Nana? Like, kind of how the Kira side of this was playing for you. Yeah. For me, it was being very, it was being aware of walking around a tiger and how careful I needed to be and what I needed to do to just get out of the situation. That was the way I perceived it.

Yeah. When she says, oh, you know how to manipulate me and was thrilled by it. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. She's just trying to stay alive, stay safe. Just trying to stay alive.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, we do learn that Bejor is now part of this group. and uh kira says she wants the intended to teach her how to be a leader like her so again very flattering trying to stay safe the intendant says she she'll let her live but she's got to kill Bashir and kira appeals to her ego there a bit and says well you're aren't you the boss you can decide if you're going to kill Bashir or not so interesting sort of chess match between you and yourself in this do we ever see any other pejorans oh we did wait a minute

I feel like in background we did, I feel like we must have. Terrans must, there must have been bejorns in there. Armin, you might have, you might have pulled up one. Yeah, because now that I'm thinking of it, I can't remember any other. There's Terrans everywhere, but I didn't see other pejorans. This is supposed to be the center granted of the intendant is that this is her capital. But it seems strange to me that there were, if it's an alliance, shouldn't there have been some Bajorans there as well. Lots of Clingons, lots of Kardashians, even a Ferengi, but aside from the

attendant, and there might have been background, which I didn't notice. Yeah, you're right. They shouldn't have been in the Terrans because Bajorans wouldn't have been the slaves. Right. If they wouldn't be with them. But you would think that there would be someone nearby you like an attendant or right-hand person that was also Bajoran, but you don't see that. You know, you're kind of on your own pretty much. Even at the end of this scene, a Cardassian woman comes in to take Kira to her. Yeah, not a Bajorn. It's not a Bajorn, which would have made, that would have helped in this moment to have

a Bajoran come in and be, you know, part of your support team there. Yeah, it would have helped just in terms of makeup, too. Oh, yeah. A lot easier makeup. Yes, I do love the final line that the intended gives or fetish Kira at the very end. Find this attractive young woman, some quarters. Kira Noreeis, I'll call for you later. I just love that.

Because you love yourself is what it is. It's like fine. There's attractive young woman in some quarters. I like that line, a lot. Well, yes, Kira leaves with the Kardassian escort, but we cut down to the ore processing again. We see Bashir pushing some ore around. Kira comes in.

I guess the real, oh, yeah, we'll call her Kira an intendant. It was hard for me because I didn't know that intended word when we started. So I was like, what do I call her? It's French. Yes. Intendon. We now know. Yes.

Or Robbie just use fetish cura. We all understand that. Fetish Cura. I'm going to go with fetish Cura. It's easier, yeah. Well, real Cira arrives, not fetish Cura. Yeah. Down in the ore processing, Odo offers to show you around there, but she asks immediately about

the new Taryn, Bashir. Odo says he's behaving himself. She wants to go talk to him. I love this moment. I'll go talk to him then. You just kind of ditch Odo. It was a little insulted there. Renee played that.

nicely. But they're trying to figure out what happened. They have Bashir and Kira have a little conversation. Bashir puts it together after Kira mentions Kirk. He's like, oh, it's like the mirror universe, the transporter accident that happened. Maybe that's what happened to us. So Bashir's going to talk to what Brian, he says, about this transporter way of getting home and Kira's going to go look for more help. So we feel like our heroes are on track to get themselves saved here. Nanah, did you think it was weird

that Kira, real Kira, didn't know anything about Kirk at all? Was that something that was, or did you just accept it and say, yep?

No, I accepted as a Bajoran. I wouldn't have. That you wouldn't know any of her history. Okay. Yeah. And also maybe some,

you know, highly intellectual Bajorn's might, but that's not who she was. Right. Yeah. So she just wouldn't be aware. Yeah.

I like that detail that she didn't know, Kirk. I liked it. Yeah. It's 100 years ago. There's no reason in the world for her to know. Yeah. Okay. All right.

Wasn't the lighting amazing? Lighting was great. I was going to ask you about the smoke. Do you remember? Because in this ore areas, the smoke was intense. So much smoke. Yeah. Do you recall, like, was it a problem?

Or did you have to struggle with it? I mean, you know, it was like one of those things. it was it's star trek it's going to be smoke it's like the pipe that's going to fall and the smoke's going to come out and danger is going to go flying it's just those are the things that you expect to deal with however the union did have a say not necessarily in this episode but in smoke um it have you may or may not remember all of us when we had scenes with smoke a sign had to be posted on the door saying what the smoke was and in the problem In the original trick, when they used smoke, they used oil-based smoke, which is problematic for everybody on the set.

So now they've switched over to water-based smoke, which does not affect the lungs the way oil-based smoke does. But I have to tell you, I swear that it does, because when I did Chicago for, you know, the opening of the second act, they did a lot of water-based smoke. And it would affect my singing, like a lot. And he said, no, it's water-based, so I know, but still. But there's got to be something in it. But not as bad as the oil base. I agree with you that it does, but not as bad as the oil base. Right.

So, Armand, so you're talking about the original series having oil-based? I assume. I assume. I thought that Voyager had oil-based as well. Is that incorrect then? That's incorrect. It would have gone to water-based by then already. Yes, yeah.

If we were using water-based, that Voyager would be using. And there was always a sign on the state. door. When you went to enter, it said, there's going to be smoke here today. By the way, it's water-based smoke. That sign had to be posted on the stage door. And of course, there's that's really useful because, you know, if you went, no, I don't want smoke, you just don't show for work that day. You just go, I'm not going in today. I mean, I feel like, Armand, you do bring up a good point about the union getting involved in making a safer workplace. But I don't think that that change happened long before our generation of Star Trek. I think that they were still using

the bad stuff into the 80s, I think. They might have been, they might have been. But again, I certainly remember seeing the posters on the door. Yeah. Yeah. My goodness. Oil-based smoke, water-based smoke. Is there smoke-based smoke? There probably isn't even more refined smoke, so it wouldn't hurt your voice as much as in the knowledge is talking about. They probably have perfected it. It's been 30 years. So, yes. Right. Yeah. Yeah. it's probably better now okay well we go to quarks next um we see quark in a whole new outfit what did you think of that outfit much more comfortable it looked very comfortable yeah it did it looked it looked simpler more it almost looked like it was uh you know

fashionable in a way because it was more simple oh really i thought it was a downgrade it looked to me like it was just more like a cook smock like something it was it wasn't as um fancy colorful colorful as quark's costumes uh with all due respect to all the three of you bob blackman once told me his favorite character to design for was quark so um um yes my quark costumes were much more colorful much more uh heavy and and hot but but so this one was a delight to wear but it also indicated my rank or my position in the hierarchy of of of this station which was not elevated. The costume sets just shouted out,

no, this guy has no oomph whatsoever. Yeah, he's just a server. He's not a businessman or wealthy in any way. He's just a server. He's working the bar. I mean, Bob Blackman said that to all of us. We were all.

Now I know. He didn't say it to me. Thank you. Thank you. He didn't say it to Robbie. He definitely didn't say to me. I want to talk a bit about how amazing. it is to see an actor in full rubber makeup, change of performance so amazingly from inside that you know

this is a different person. This is such a different person than the cork we know. And I love him. He's so vulnerable and kind, sweet. And how you do that, covered in makeup, is a testament to the... Thank you. Thank you. Well, with all due respect to the Voyager actors here, our cast was phenomenal. Our, not just the series regulars, but our main supporting characters as well. Yeah. We were a class act, all of the actors. And, um, And we were capable, I mean, they did it to us on a number of occasions. They allowed us, and in your case, this is a phenomenal performance of the intendant, as well as cure, but certainly the intended. And they knew that they could do that to us.

They knew that we could accomplish that. And so they gave us the ability to do that. And I, for one, I'm grateful that they recognized that and gave us those opportunities. Yeah. Yeah. I do feel that also with that more muted colors of your wardrobe, that also affects your delivery and your performance in a way, just the wardrobe itself.

And it's almost like it was Hugo Boss's interpretation of your standard core clothing. It's just more muted colors, you know. So that's the way I looked at it. Whatever it was, it was more comfortable. Yeah. Thank goodness. Your point, though, Armin, that the writers, you know, respected Trek actors, your cast.

And I think what was great about Star, for actors, especially series regulars, is tonally, episode to episode, we could play very different things. One week we might be playing leaning into the comedy side of our characters. The next week we're playing a thriller or murder mystery. The next week it's romance. That was the great thing as an actor in Star Trek for me is being able to play all these different genres instead of just a procedural. Every week it's the same. Tone. It's the same. Exactly. And the gnaw is, you know, hits a home run with this. She's playing two different characters incredibly well in the same episode.

And I have to give it to Sid as well. He, as he goes from a brash lieutenant in the opening scene to a hero by the end of the episode. Yeah. And we're seeing the difference also in Andy's performance, in Avery's performance, in René's performance. Yeah. Very different. And kudos to them that they can do it. There are wonderful actors who are brilliant at playing themselves, playing themselves,

and that's what they do, and they're brilliant at it. But we had a whole bunch of wonderful character actors who could play different roles and do them well. Yeah. Armid, there's a couple of lines in here, very interesting lines. Curia says, look, Cork, I don't have a strip of gold-pressed latinum. So don't even think about it. Cork says, gold-pressed what? So clearly in this universe, there's no latinum.

We never heard of it. Yes, are there, there probably are no rules of acquisition either for, is that how did you, you know. I don't think I thought about that at all. I thought, how do I make this character different, just the very things that I was talking about? Although I must say in this scene, I have a questionable word. And I, when I was watching, it went, wait, wait, wait, wait, how did I know she was a major? Oh. Wait, where is that?

It's in the beginning. I call her major. And I, and I, and I went, wait, all I know is that I've heard she looks a lot like the intended. So how did I find out she was a major? She doesn't say major. Nobody knows that she's a major. No, she hasn't said major in the episode.

So, so how did I, because you'll, if you go back and replay it, he calls her major. That's a slip. Wow. That's a slip. It has to be, right? Armand, it has to be. Wow. And it's funny, Armand, like, you're bringing this up now.

because you're watching from the outside and you're seeing it. But you perform the scene, but you didn't catch it either. I'm so used to calling her major. It never occurred to me. I mean, just to give, you know, give everybody a little break on this. Like sometimes we'll watch these episodes and we'll find these mistakes and we're like, how could there were so many people that was a director and the script supervising. Right.

But sometimes when you're in the heat of production, something like this that you see so clearly now goes past everybody's heads. Right. because clearly this quark only knows fetish kira not regular kira not major kira that's right and the intent is not a major so why would i call her major yeah why would you call her major no good catch kira and quark meet in this scene uh she says i love when kira says oh we're really close friends on our size yeah let's get what a liar do favors for me all the time we're like this yeah good money like like you said gart she offers latin him he's never heard

of it. But we do learn he wants some help getting people to the other side. Garrick enters in this scene and arrests Quark for smuggling the prisoner. So that that guy from earlier who he interrogated gave Quark up. So Quark is hauled off. Hey, Garrett, have you been traveling this summer? Oh my gosh. So much already. I don't always travel, but this summer's been insane. Trip after trip. You've been doing your impersonation of me. Yes. You know what doesn't belong in everyone's epic summer plans, though? What? Getting burned by your old wireless bill.

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i'll call him pirate cisco do you remember acting in this set by the way armin and and nan like very different looks or quirks in here wasn't it it still felt like quarks yeah even if the signage was changed and everything it's still the basic bones okay yeah the bar was the same they didn't reconstruct the bar so the bar was the same the rack of bottles and the back was the same

different bottles probably but the rack was the same so it was familiar yeah now later on when they changed quarks into the alliance sort of boom that that looked like a very different quarks to me But again, we don't see the bar in that scene. We don't see the rack of bottles. And that's what I was mostly used to.

Most of used to. Got it. Well, we go back down to ore processing. It's mealtime. Bashir gives away his plate of mush to some other person. Yeah, very generous. Very generous of Bashir. Yes.

He's a good guy. I'm team Bashir. I love this guy. And not the brash guy from the first scene. Yes. Who doesn't care about how. curious feeling really. He just wants to talk about what he knows. But here, he's matriculated. He's become a much more sensitive person. And he's dirtier for that matter. Yeah. But you're given the tiny

clue in the first scene about the music, that there's more to this guy than we usually see. So that it makes sense later on that that, you know, leaders aren't born. They rise to the occasion. And he rises to the occasion of this, of what happens to them. I mean, it's funny. I'll jump to some of my thoughts at the end of this, just in this moment. Because I think, Armand, you point out a really important thing, which is Bashir's arc is really clear, how he starts out very naive and kind of childish and in many ways. And then becomes, he gives a gift ultimately to Miles O'Brien here, a gift of, hope and freedom and things like that there's a real arc a hero's arc i'll be honest i didn't

feel the same structural arc with kira and fetish kira i didn't i didn't quite feel the clarity of that arc i love the performances and it has nothing to do uh nana with what you did but i felt like i wanted to feel a little more clear resolution what what did this relationship what was the gift or what was the sacrifice or what was the that they brought each other in the way that Bashir did with Miles and I didn't feel the same. I will say that my feeling and I wonder if there's something that I could have done or is it that it's just this realization that this exists and it's going to go on. There is there is now this is just the beginning of the arc for this relationship between And there's nothing to realize other than she's there.

She's there. She exists. She exists. Yeah, I think you're right. That alone is significant. But when it was all said and done, I look back to Bashir's arc, which I noticed as well, Armand, and I was like, hmm, I didn't know if- And I think you've touched on something that I want to talk about more at the end.

Okay. I think it's a very telling thing that you just said. Yeah, that was just my impression. And it is, I was jumping to the end, but you, you're making the point that I think Bashir's arc and Miles Ark, and even Cisco's Ark, I get, like, I get that story, arc and resolution. I know where they are at the end. Whereas with Kira and Fetish Kira, I was like, but maybe you're right. No, no, maybe it's the beginning of their arc. It's the beginning. Like, we're not going to answer where this is going to go because that's a longer arc. Yeah. Maybe that was the

intention there. Yeah. I agree. Yeah. Well, anyway, Bashir gives away his plate of mush goes to talk to Miles, tells him that on, Bashir says on my side, back in my world where I'm from, Miles has a great life. He's married. He's got a kid. He's the head of all engineering. This Miles, Mirror Miles, kind of doesn't believe it. And when Bashir asks about transporters, Miles says he does know a little about it. But then he goes, you're trying to manipulate me. Everything you told me, that other Miles, it's, he doesn't believe him. And he's like, oh, you were just trying to, you know, grease me up a little bit to help you out. I don't believe you.

That was a nice little scene to me. I like the dynamic they had. And Cullum's performance of this other mile, I thought was great. So good. It's also like Luddlum, like writing, you see the door where this, oh, this is how they're going to resolve this. This is how they're going to get out of this situation. And then the door closes. And they go, whoa, we have to try something else.

that's good mystery writing for which I appreciate it oftentimes in this episode they're heading towards a way out and then the door closes and they have to find another way out it's also interesting at the end of the scene Odo says meal breaks over

and tells Miles O'Brien that Mr. Cisco wants him in his quarters right away so we're aware that Cisco's a terran but he's got some other status you know that if Odo's calling him Mr. Cisco and he's got the power to call people to his quarter.

Cisco's got some status here. And it's ironic on regular Teraknora in Deep Space Nine, Mr. Cisco is Jake. Yes. That's what Otto calls Jake, Mr. Cisco. That's right. That's right. Oh, that's funny.

Nice detail. Well, Miles heads off to go talk to Mr. Cisco, and we cut over to Quarks. Cisco does comment at the beginning, how much like the intendant. that Kira looks like. He just can't believe it. He does reveal Sisko in the scene

that the intendant has given him some freedom and some opportunities to go collect duties. I think he says, I roam around space collecting duties, and then I give him to the intendant. So he is kind of a pirate that's empowered by fetish Kira. But Miles arrives. Sisko calls him smiley,

which I love that detail in this scene because in this world, Miles is not smile. ever he's not you know he's busy he's busy he's busy exactly but i love the nickname smiley uh once smiles to fix his impulse driver coil and then the intendant calls cisco go to the intendant's quarter next kira enters to see the intendant taking a milk and rose peddled bath okay nanot let's talk about the bath how was that was it milk what was it it was milky I don't know what they put in

to make it milky and I had those awful things that you know it's like pasties or something pasties but big they're huge you know they cover your whole breast and they were put on with glue

and they would float off and they kept floating off so I'd be like wait they're coming off they're coming off oh no and evidently they had put orange oil in the bath and orange oil is what takes

the pool of. So that was like, yeah, I didn't love filming that scene. I just didn't love it at all. And was it a closed set? Was it a close set? I don't remember. There were a lot of people, whether it was closed or not, there were a lot of people in there. And I just, I'm not, I'm not big on my nudity in a performance. So it was really uncomfortable for me. and to manage but you know i i thought it looked great that looked fabulous yeah and you know it was very atmospheric and wonderful and very telling that she would have uh cis pirate cisco there and call you know kira in it's just it's very she's very much a like a vulnerable narcissist which is one of the most dangerous kinds yeah

You know, so it was, that really tells you a lot. I'm also guessing that that water was not warm either. It was probably cold. No, it wasn't bad. No, they heated it in some way for me. They were great about that. Good. Yeah.

I mean, nowadays, because of the unions, we have what's called intimacy coordinators. And that has definitely changed the process and the process. ability to feel safe in an environment. Absolutely. Have you worked with an intimacy coordinator? Yeah, me too. And it's really great. It's helpful.

Yeah, very, very helpful, very clear. And the stuff that would happen in the 80s, especially in 90s, it just can't happen like that anymore. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I remember once working on a show and the actors were supposed to be waking up in bed the morning after they had, you know, the characters had spent the night together. And one of the actors was wearing boxers and things.

The other actor decided to do it nude and surprise the other actor. And the other actor was really uncomfortable. And, you know, this was before intimacy coordinators and things like that. So a lot of stuff was left. It's kind of loosey goosey. We'll just see how it goes. See how you feel. And it's nice now that we don't have to worry about that.

And as a guest star, you're very vulnerable because, You know, on a certain level, you're disposable. I remember there was one show I did that the lead, uh, when we were supposed to kiss, he not only stuck his tongue in my mouth, but down my throat and then turned around and, you know, went like this to the crew guys. And it was like, you freeze. There's like, there's nothing you can do. Yeah.

As a guest star, you definitely feel. not inclined to speak up for yourself less power you well you i've tried it i've tried it and it doesn't get any i did try it back in the day and i learned very quickly that's that'll get you let go yeah it's not going to get you any kind of protection yeah you could have bit his tongue back in the day i could have bit his you could have bit his tongue right there take that buddy yeah you've entered into unauthorized territory, you know, who's right there? But I mean, if that's agreed upon,

if that's what the kiss is supposed to be, that's very different than just, you know, suddenly it wasn't necessary. But see, and you couldn't, and you wouldn't have gotten fired from that because you could have said, oh, I thought that we were getting into it. I was playing a little rough with you.

I just, where were you? Yeah, where were you when I needed you by this kind of coaching? Should have been there. God dang it. Well, fetish cure is in a milk bath and real Kira arrives, the intendant asks about the other Cisco back in Kira's real world.

She mentioned it would be nice to have two of them, two of her boy toys around. She is a narcissist. Oh, my goodness. Double the fun. Double the fun. Hard to satisfy this woman. But vulnerable too, which. But insecure in some ways.

Yes, and watching that, it's like that's what makes her so dangerous. Yeah, yeah. Can I read this little blurb, Robbie? After this episode aired, there was a great deal of discussion about how sexy and alluring Nana Visitor was as the intendant with the costume she wore garnering a great deal of attention. According to costume designer Robert Blackman, the general consensus amongst fans was that it was the revealing costume that gave visitor this new level of seductiveness. But Blackman disagrees. It's not that I've exposed more of her body. It's exposed pretty much the same way. always is what's the difference she's the difference it's how nana wears it it's what she does she walks like a provocative woman with her legs crossing in front she uses her hips and a whole other kind of body english than she normally uses there's bob blackman sticking up for you saying it's all you wow wow i never heard that that's yeah yeah and he's right it was it was the performance of a woman It was performatively female, very definitely, and purposefully on my part. Something that Kira would never do, have that kind of self-awareness to, you know, attract attention.

But Fetish Kira has it in spades, though. Fetish Kira is going to go for it. She's a woman who knows that she's being watched all the time. Yes. Did you ever, when you talk about how the costume sort of informs your performance, I remember I did a Western once, and I was like, I need to wear cowboy boots. I just need to like, I walk different in the boots. So before the project even started, I got some boots and I was walking around,

trying to find like how the cowboy boots might affect this character. And it was very different. I felt, you know, costumes can do that. I agree. Cisco leaves. And the intendant wants to know why Kira was trying to get a transporter. so we know she's got info here Intel. The intendant informs Kira that they redesigned all the transporters after the first crossover,

so they're not getting back that way. Door closed. Door closed for good. Even if Miles was going to help him, it wouldn't work. The intendant here says she wants Kira to love her, not to fear her. It gets very intimate and personal. This is where I think you took her chin and kind of lifted it up. Was that in this scene?

in that 50-50? I'm not sure. I think so. I think it was. And in that shot, that 50-50, when a hand comes up, obviously, you were playing the scene with yourself. So it looked to me like they had whoever was standing in when you were playing real Kira and you got your chin touched on that side of the split, that they had the stand-in

reach up and touch your chin. And then they replaced that with your body or something. It seemed like a tricky, clever way to do that moment. I liked it. Yeah, I'm not sure. I think it was because that was the whole difficult part that I had to know where my hands were. So I'm not sure that it wasn't my hand that they put in. Somehow.

Yeah. Yeah. It was very clever. We did a lot of takes because of where my hand was in space. Yeah. Up, down. It had to be exact. Mm-hmm.

And I had nothing really to gauge it off of. Yeah, sure. Wow. Well, it was very well done. David Livingston, kudos. No, no, kudos for figuring it out because it was really clever. And that's also probably thank Judy Brown. Probably has something to say.

Always thank Judy Brown. Always thank Judy. That's right. But it gets a little personal with the touching and the close, you know. And then Garrick shows up with Quark. Turns out Quark confessed. The intendant's sad because she says she always liked him, but it says, make his death quick. For which I appreciate.

They're going to die anyway. I mean, she says later on she's going to torture Bashir a long time. A long time publicly. Yeah. So I'm happy. It's a quick death. Yeah. I mean, Arm is happy.

Of course, I'm happy. This is a spoiler because I'm slightly aware that there's more Mirror Universe episodes coming up. Yeah. But were you killed? Do you ever in that... You weren't killed. No, I am killed. Oh, you are killed.

So you never show up again. No, never again. Fetish, Kira, you're evil. Oh, I do show up, but it's on the set of Buffy. That's funny. So this is the only Star Trek Deep Space Nine Mirror Universe episode in which the crossover is made via the Bajoran wormhole.

All subsequent episodes show the crossover being made by way of a specially adapted transporter. Wow. You told me. I'm sorry. Okay. But we know it's happening. I've heard about it.

All right. At the end of the scene, the intended does tell Kira that she's planned a party for them tonight. And it is a great reaction shot from Nana of the fact that she's just killed off an entity, Ferengi, and now I ask, what should we wear? It's a lovely, wonderful reaction shot from you and not. Just brilliant, quite brilliant. Thanks.

Okay, so the next scene is in Kira's quarters. Kira enters the room carrying a gown. She's got, I guess, the clothes that the intendant wants her to wear. And there's evil Garek. Is he evil Garek? Yeah, I'll call him Evil Garek. Fetish, Garek. I don't know if he's fetish.

He's like, you've got to have a tight. Military, Garek. Military Garek. That word. there's there's military garrick he says the intendant loves and trusts her very deeply and he reveals he wants to betray her the intendant uh he says he'll get rid of the intend and kirr can pretend to be her briefly and then step down so garrick so military garrick can assume command and if she refuses garrick says he'll kill bishir i did love the first line in the

scene when she walks when you walk in and uh garrick says lovely i do admire a well tailored gown. I like that little nice reference to the Garrick we know. Yes. Yeah. Nice. Obviously not a line for Michael Doran for a wharf. Yes. Yeah. No. They did personalize it a little bit. Yeah. Did. Where were we? We were in, oh yeah, I think I said it. If he, if she refuses, Garrick's going to kill Bashir. Right. Bad news. Well, we go to the ore processing center next.

arrives tells Julian, be careful, watch your back. She wants to get the runabout that they came on. And she says, you know, they don't know about the wormhole. So maybe that's how we can get back. We could just get our runabout. Maybe we go back through the wormhole and that'll work. And so they're making this plan and then they separate again. And we do see Odo in the background. I love that shot that David did. You see Odo kind of hovering in the background between them and then it rack focuses, I think, to him at the end. yeah very well well directed and again tons of smoke so much smoke in this episode it's a lot look is so again the look is is stunning and you know you're in a different world yeah um there was a tNG episode that when they went into this different time and it's very much like that you go it's all

everything everything's different yeah and it's just beautiful I was also thinking about what you said that there was no arc for Kira or the intended. But I'm wondering, that's a linear thing that we expect from a character. But maybe because it's a splitting of a personality into a dark side and, you know, an essential side, that it's kind of a, it's not linear. Yeah. Yeah, I think you're right. In a sense, that is the arc,

is that this kind of discovery of these two sides of this character, getting to know each other a bit, you know, starting to feel each other out. But there's no, it feels like that's a setup for a much bigger arc that's going to happen later on. But it's also very informational about Kira. When you see the flip side, oh, and for me, as an actor, she's got that in her somewhere. As an actor, you know, sometimes it's so useful to flip a character to exactly what they're not so that you can understand even better what they are.

And that's what that did for me, certainly. It became very clear to me that Kira isn't performative, that she does, she's not. narcissistic in any way, you know, that's with a small end. Obviously, the intended is with a large end and a vulnerable one. And to see how dangerous that was was interesting to me. I think one of the things that I found interesting about the Kira performance is that we saw how manipulative Kira can be, which she usually hides. But when you think about it, when you think about her background, that she was a terrorist in dangerous situations, that she's probably used that manipulation and ways to outthink her opponents to get herself out of a deep trouble.

So I, we don't normally see that in the, in the career performance or in the writing. And I, I for one, relished seeing that as she's, she's dealing with a very dangerous situation. She's been in lots of dangerous situations, but she's usually part of a team, and they're working it out together. But here she's by herself, really, and she's using all of her skill sets in order to get herself and Bashir out of this situation. Yeah, because nothing else will work. Getting angry won't work. Getting, you know, violent, no chance. There's nothing she can do physically or, you know, in a type of fight.

it won't work. So she, I noticed with Garrick also, she gets very quiet and watching him as he gets more and more wound up and out there. And it was actually, I thought, a really good balance for the scene because I just get this, I would be the grounding for his crazy electricity. You know, both of us weren't up there. I was just yeah. Kira was watching a snake. Yeah. I love what you said

about, you know, the things you can learn by looking at the character for what they're not, looking at the opposite of what they are. And it reminded me a teacher I had when I was taking some classes on directing. The teacher I had said one time, take a look at the

wrong way to do it. Like when you're trying to figure out a scene, they come in here, They sit down. You go through it. And then she said, look at the opposite of that. Do it wrong. Like make your plan wrong because it will show you either, oh, yeah, my first instincts were right or, oh, my gosh, why aren't I looking at this opposite version?

It's so much more interesting. Yeah. You know, the scene where two characters are fighting with each other, maybe if one of them is just, you know, whispering and isn't fighting. Like, do it wrong. See what that, what you discover wrong, not being wrong. but you know what you what you judge is wrong at first may actually be something really enlightening if you if you go down that rabbit hole so yeah it's clarifying it's you can you know

it's yeah it changed kira from then on when i did uh the intent yeah i bet i bet i bet that's good advice for any any field of occupation really you know to go what what is the wrong way to do it And is that thinking outside of the box of something that works? Yeah, perfect. Good advice all around. Next scene, we go to the promenade. We see Kira finds Cisco napping on the promenade, which I immediately went, oh, this is like Main Street, and there's a homeless guy sleeping on, you know, by the gutter or something.

That's what it felt like with Cisco. He's just trying to take a nap. He's got a napkin on his, you know, like he's been eating snacks. He's a mess. He's a homeless pirate. Now, he's fetish pirates. Cisco is what he is. He can do anything he wants. He can do anything he wants. He can sleep on the promenade, have food crumbs and a napkin, a bib. Yeah, that's his thing. Yeah, he doesn't care.

No. No, he's kept by the intendant. It's awful and he hates it. Okay. And he can't stand her. That's my, that's my take on it. Oh, yeah. So that's why he's napping on the promenade. Yes. Okay. He doesn't want her messing with him. Leave me alone for God's sakes. Well, Kira finds him napping. She wakes him up, wants to trade some information with him for her runabout. She wants that runabout. Kira tells him that Garrick's planning to kill the intendant and then have Kira pretend to be her.

And Cisco laughs. I loved his laugh here. He's been trying to kill her since he arrived. Again, the door closes. Another door closes. Right. Yep, exactly. He says, don't worry.

he's been trying to do this Kira says that he's definitely not the Cisco she knows back in her world and she can't understand why he doesn't care about freedom which I thought that that idea and the turn that Cisco has

you know that pirate Cisco has in the scene that gets to him in this scene as you leave he's left with that thought I like the scene a lot it was nice yeah do you remember being on the promenade Did the promenade feel different when you were shooting,

yeah, there was a different atmosphere, but mostly it was from the other actors. You certainly felt the electricity from Cisco and Garrick, and, you know, that's what made it a totally different experience. I'm near-sighted, so sometimes I have tunnel vision and all I'm seeing are the other actors. That's what my, that's what I'm holding. not so much

what it's looking like. Yeah, the decoration. Unless it's like I'm in a bat. That certainly changes. Yes. But yeah, it was such a different tone. Yeah.

Such a different performance from Avery. From everybody. From everybody. Absolutely. But all of you, Thespians, must have been so excited to be able to play this darker version or bizarre version of yourselves. and all of you did it with such a plumb.

It was so so important to watch. We loved it. It's so challenging. It's so fun. It's like Disneyland for actors. You get to stretch and do things in all different ways. It's really incredible and tell a good story. Yeah.

Absolutely. You know, it's not like just for ourselves. It's telling the story that's so fun. And if I may, it wasn't just that you're short-sighted, but you had so much to think about you had so much to concentrate on it really wasn't time for you to focus on how the set was different yeah you were you were concentrating on everything you had to do your lines dealing with uh moment to moment all the things that were happening around you i know for one i would have been like this all i would have thought about is okay what are what am i doing next

and they could it could have been thundering and pouring outside and i wouldn't know wouldn't have Yeah, and always you have to add when we're talking about DS9 and probably your show, too, that we're doing it in a mental state that is the equivalent of being drunk, being so exhausted, so tired, so sleep deprived that you're working with partial mental faculties. Yeah. Certainly that was true for me. And, you know, there was just a lot going on, being forced every night and having. having a child and it was a lot and doing two roles in the same show. Any one of those things would have been a lot, but you had a lot, yeah, a handful of things. Yeah, you had to be a mom as well while you're doing this entire thing.

Armin, I have a question for Armin, other than your wardrobe being different from your universe quark, was there any difference in the makeup application at all? It was still regular quark then, right? Okay. Yeah. And I must say, I love Karen Westerfield, who did my makeup but I watched the episode and I went really Karen there were just I thought mistakes in the makeup not really I could I could see things here and that never used and it may because my quark costume usually covers it up and because this was open-necked I could see things here I went oh that's not good got it I bet I bet it was what the car the new costume exposed right I bet that was a big

And Karen probably was not aware of what I was wearing, so she probably did what she normally did. Yeah. And the normal costume covered it up. Yeah. She made you up for the normal high-collar look, so she had no clue. Well, we go to Quarks next. Kira, our hero, Kira, walks in in a beautiful blue strapped, low-cut party gown. I thought it was purple.

Huh? Oh, is it purple? What? Lavender, maybe. Is that a purple? Lilac. Lylac? Lylac. Let's go with lilac. Let's go with lilac.

There you go. It was lilac. She walks in, great entrance. Garrick is blown away and how beautiful she is. Asked for a dance with her later. Then one of Cisco's men, Dennis Madeline. Dennis, Madeline, Dennis, Danger, Madelon. What has had quite a bit of to do on camera in this episode.

He did. Yeah. Yeah. For those who we don't know, Dennis. was the fight choreographer for for both shows. Yes. And several others as well. Stunt coordinator, fight coordinator, he did it all.

Fight man. He did it all. Actor, performer. Right. Entertainmenter. Entertainer of eye prosthetic. It looked like he had some. He had a Martak eye. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, anyway, Dennis bumps into a Klingon. The Klingon calls

him a stupid pig. Dennis pulls out a knife. But then Cisco's giving him like the don't do this shake of the head. Dennis puts the knife away. Just when the intendant enters in the same dress, she asks for some bright music. But I always find that sci-fi music,

Star Trek music, when they play it, you goes, play something bright. And it's like this weird John Cage, beep-bumpur, beep, beep, boop. It's like terrifying. It's not bright at all. If you go back, I can't remember the name of the episode,

where we had a Bajoran musician, I thought that was indicative of that kind of music I agree it was very Bajoran the guy that was singing in Corks that guy the Bajoran is that you were talking about No this is terrible I should remember the ex-president Patty Duke's father Yes

Yeah very famous Very famous and I've just forgotten his name But he was the lead in that Deep Space Nine episode where he played a flute-like instrument. Yeah, in your bar, right? He was having a concert and everyone was not buying drinks and you were upset about that. That's right.

That's right. That's right. Okay. Well, I just find Star Trek music, not Bajoran in particular. It's never bright and cheery. It's always a little creepy. I just thought of John Cage the whole time. Like that kind of dissonant, experimental, weird music.

That's what he played for you. Robbie, I want that to be my ringtone. I want to record you going and then that'll be you when you call me. Yes. Thank you. Great. When people say that Deep Space Nine was a dark show,

I want to point out, this is dark. This episode is dark. This was literally dark on many levels. We cut back to the ore processing, and I love, I don't know if this was intentional or not, but I made the connection. Kira says to Bashir earlier, watch your back, blah, blah, blah.

And this scene opens up with Bashir exhausted when Odo kicks him in the back. Did you notice that? He literally kicked him and knocked him, you know, knocked him a little bit. Yeah. I just made that connection. I think it's coincidental, but good connection though, Rob. Yeah. Odo does say that it's a shame that it's Bashir's last night here.

So a little ominous threat that he's going to be oft, I guess. When suddenly there's an explosion. It's a thorium leak. Anyway, there's chaos. Bashir punches a guard, takes his weapon as he's trying to escape. Odo, I think, aims a weapon at him or something. Pulls, Odo pulls his weapon out. And Bashir explodes him into goo. Cool. I don't know. What did you think of that effect, guys? I'm just curious, everyone across the board. Armand, what did you think? I thought the effect was fine. I'm not sure that I like that particular. thing to happen but um why why because it's too easy to kill off your enemies it's too easy to do that yes perhaps this odo was a cruel horrible person but does anyone need to be shot does anyone need to be shot i think it's too easy on our show and all the Star Trek's for that matter, but it's too easy to kill off your enemies. Then Odo wouldn't have been able to pull, I mean, once he pulls a weapon, it's either, it's one of the- That's what a cop has to live through every time. Yeah.

Has to decide whether or not to shoot or not. And sometimes they're penalized for shooting too quickly. Yes, for the storytelling, I understand it. I just, I just thought, no just too easy it's too easy to shoot him and the effect was lovely you know i really did like the effect um the other thing is we've seen odo be attacked many times on deep space tonight and every time he's been able to morph into something that gets him out of that situation so so in a sense really he couldn't he couldn't morph into he saw he sees uh beshear raised the rifle he should have been able to react as quickly as the regular Odo does. I just had a real problem with killing off this character.

And I have problems when you kill off any characters. It's just too easy for the writers to go, he dies, and he's done. Okay. So what would you, what would you have like to see? What you have done in that instance? I don't know. I'm not a writer. I'm not that kind of writer.

So I don't know. I don't know. If Odo had shot and missed Bashir, then I would have said self-defense, okay, he's got to kill it. And we've seen that happen lots of times. You've seen people attack you and then you shoot them.

I thought he did shoot. He did not shoot. He just raised the gun. No, I don't think he did. He just raised the gun. I think he's going to basically. Okay. Nana, your thoughts of the auto

explosion visual effects and moment? I like the visual effect. I did too. And because there was a moment where I felt like he was aware of being, blown apart and that was a strange image for me that was a strange thing to live through with him yeah um but i always i i guess it's what is that like it's it's a convenience on my part probably but i go well

this oto isn't as slick as our odo yes he's you know and he's not he's so grounded in aggression that he's not self-aware enough to be light in his mind to go, whoops, I got to go be an eagle to get away. So I just, I make that, I let what happens inform me of what that would mean. And to me, that would mean Odo is not because he's so, his outward thing is aggression and hitting and weapons that he's not going to have a quickness in his brain. He's too dependent on the outside stuff that he uses.

And isn't he as much a victim as anybody else on this station? Isn't he even forced into this situation? As the intendant says, he's the only one of his kind. We know that. Yeah. So it's not like he's got, he's part of the alliance. He's not part of the alliance. And therefore, he's been forced to do this.

Just as, as Smiley says, I can't do that. I can't do that in the scene that's about to come up. They've been, they've been bullied into thinking they have to do what they have to do. This is how they survive. Yeah. As shocking as it was to see Odo get shot, I wasn't expecting that visual effect. I expected to see more.

of that sort of you know how when he turns into his liquid form he's more he's more it's like the metallic look at terminator yeah but it's more of an orange just sort of metallic looking it just looks different and though when he gets shot here it looks like he explodes into vanilla scented candle wax is what it is and i'm like what what why i just it went like that and i just saw i just felt like i was at bed bath and beyond i didn't feel you know that that was the proper effect that should have been used. I didn't mind it. Maybe the color could have been a better match, but I didn't mind the effect.

Okay. Or maybe that's the color he go of his liquid in the mirror universe. That's the only other way I can validate it. Yeah. Here's what I wanted, I wanted to read from the original script. I do have the actual script, not the transcript, but the actual script of this moment when Odo gets shot. So I'll just pick it up from, there's an alarm, radioactive smoke fills the room.

Bashir reacts, looking to take advantage of this moment somehow. Odo, moving towards the exit, yells at Bajoran guards, release the security locks. Wider as the doors open, men scramble to get out. Bashir moves into the crowd, jostles a Bajoran guard, and close on grabs a hand phaser from the guard's belt. But Odo sees the weapon in his hand, charges through the crowd at Bashir, who sees him coming, raising a phaser, and Odo, in a visual effect, as Bashir fires and connects with his chest, Odo splatters literally against the wall, and as his remains drips slowly down, Bashir bolts out in the way.

That's how it's described. They didn't show it that way. No. And it's funny because it's described that way. The thing that I was missing here, Armin, I don't, I understood him, Bashir shooting. The thing I didn't understand is Bashir just shot someone he knows well. And why didn't Bashir take a moment to, oh, my God, I just, I know it's either hesitate or

emotionally be moved by the fact that he just killed someone he knows, even though you can intellectualize, it's a different, Odo, but, yeah, that's what was missing. If he had rushed at Bashir instead of just standing behind a rail, there you go. Then I would say, okay, that's an aggressive move. And Bashir's, all he did was is lift the thing up. Right. And granted, we're splitting hairs here. I understand that. But I just thought, and again, I have a problem with a lot of the killing on Star Trek. I just have a problem with it. It's just too easy to kill off your guest stars. Yeah. Well, there you go. It sounds like it was scripted slightly differently than what we ended up seeing there. Because it was scripted that Odo is rushing towards Bashir. That's why he shoots. But he doesn't rush.

But probably for the visual effect, they couldn't have him in motion. Yeah. So they just had him stand there. That's probably it. Probably. But it would have been even more effective to see the goo hit the wall and then drip down as well. Yeah. No time.

No time for that. Yeah, no time. All right. Okay. So now we jump out to the corridor. Bashir is running down this corridor. Some nice Dutch angles, I think, in this scene. Yeah.

Which was cool. Bashir opens a panel, climbs inside this tunnel. He climbs through the tunnel and sees a Brian. Jeffrey tube. Is it a Jeffreys tube? I got to say your Jeffries tubes are way better looking than our Jeffries tubes. They look like they're comfortable to go through. Ours were horrible.

There's had like a metal grate you had to climb on. So you had to have knee pads and elbow pads and things because the metal grid. Smaller. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yours was nice. This was a nice little Jeffries tube.

Yeah. But she finds O'Brien working. on a panel. He wants Miles to tell him where the runabout paths are, but Miles says, no, they're going to kill me, leave me alone, basically. And Bashir says, he says something like the life inside every Terran on this station died a long time ago. He says something. He takes a shot at like, you've lost your humanity. You've lost the thing that your spirit. I think that's one of the most important lines in this episode. Yeah. Yeah, it's a great line. And, Bashir tosses out, takes that shot and starts to go down a tunnel to look for his

runabout when Miles says, wrong way. And you see that that's turned Miles in this moment. And he asks if he can come along. And Bashir basically says, well, they're not going to be happy about me bringing you all the way back, but what the hell? Let's do it. And I like that that on either side, there's a connection between those two, that there's such a deep friendship.

It doesn't matter which universe. It's and it's still there. It transcends space and time. It does. Yes, it's nice. We like it. Well, we see them come out in another corridor and Klingons catch them right away. They're caught.

We cut inside Quarks. Bashir and Miles are brought in to the attendant, intendant, who's partying in her matching dress. Just before you go into Quarks, the look on Colum's face, when they're caught, he looks back to Bashir as though to say, you got me into trouble here. It's a very human thing to do. He has chosen, of course. It has been his choice to do this. So the onus

should be on him as well. But he looks at Bashir as though, this is your fault. Your fault. And I really love that. Really love that a great deal. And again, Ador closes. One would assume from watching a lot of Star Trek that these guys now escape to do something

heroic and they get us out. But they got caught immediately and the door closed again. Another door closed. Well, we do go on a quarks next. Bashir and O'Brien are brought in to talk to the intendant. She is really mad here. She's really mad about Odo. Talks about how he was one of a kind.

That was a heartbreaking moment, I thought, you know, when you see even in this world his uniqueness is very special in both sides. She says she does mention to kill Bashir. Shear slowly and publicly, I think she says in this scene. She's very disappointed in O'Brien. Ask him why. He says Bashir told him that Terrans could be more than they were here on this station. It got him thinking there's got to be something better than this, he says.

And as they're taken away to their deaths, Cisco heroically steps in with a gun, rescues them. All our heroes grab the guns. And yay. And I think do they seal, they step out. and shoot the door or something to kind of lock it in place. Yeah, to give it by themselves a little time. Yeah, how was that scene,

just the turn there, the anger near the end of this, this climactic moment? I remember, and it was probably in other shows too with the intendant later on, but coming up to Siddig and just giving him hell. And it was so unusual. for a woman's character

to do that kind of stuff to have that kind of authority to call a man down like that and I was aware at the time wow I'm getting to experience what this would feel like it was

traditionally kind of a masculine quality to play especially for the 90s my goodness you're going to be like that to step up to a man and go, this is what you've done, and this is how you'll pay. Really unusual, really an unusual situation to find yourself in as a woman. How did you feel, though?

And yet you did that to me constantly. Yes, it's true. However, you were a character with an edge of comedy to it. We knew, you know, you were irascible. And that's a difference to have an irascible character and go, hey, that's enough. That's one thing. But to have one of the, you know, like Cisco, to come up against Cisco is, you don't do that. You didn't do that back then as a woman.

You just didn't. Unless you were an evil character. I'm putting quotes around that. Like the intendant, you very often got to do that. But even as Kira, I got to do that. I got to be angry with Cisco unheard of. Yeah. And be one of the main characters.

Yeah. So playing Fetish Kira was empowering in a way, I'm guessing, or feeling that feeling for the first time? It was stepping into a place that I was. wasn't allowed to be in. Yeah. But again, playing a bad woman, you got to be sexy and, you know, you got and you got to be more than one dimensional thing.

Well, playing in a space that you weren't allowed to play in before, did it, did you feel guilty about that? I mean, what were the feelings that you were feeling doing that? I relished it. I felt it was, yeah, it was like, you know, sometimes as an actor, especially in Hollywood, I felt like a panther in a zoo with bars. And, you know, you just, you know what's expected of you. You lie there and people look at you or, you know, you pace around.

But I felt on Star Trek so often, and especially as the intended, And I felt like I was transported to a Savannah to a place that was actually my real environment and just allowed to run. I feel like as you talk about the freedom that playing a role so outside of norms, I had a flashback to when I was, you know, 13, 14 and got into acting. And I had that same experience as a young person of being able to go, oh, I can pretend to be like this or like that. I'd never, it just opened up a world of experience, just being an actor, you know, in my real life that was really incredibly. I think that's why all of us get addicted to acting is for that very feeling. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, you get to be for a minute or two. You get to be someone you're not. You get to break the rules, you know, behave in ways you would never behave in real life. And then you realize so much of how you actually behave is performative. It's decisions you've made. and rails you keep yourself in. And as an actor, you take those rails off and go, there's so much.

There's so much here. So many different people inhabiting this. Yeah, it's beautiful. Well, we go to a quarter. We're nearing the end here. We get to a corridor. Cisco leads them to the runabout, but Miles O'Brien decides he's going to join the pirate crew

and stay with Cisco and they say their goodbyes. Which doesn't seem like a great choice. choice for him, does it? It doesn't. No, not at all. This isn't a good life choice for you, Miles. You could have possibly going back to the other side where life is good for my life. The very thing that he said he risked his life for, for another existence, the very thing that he tells the intended that this is the reason why he did this, he just throws away. I have a real problem with the ending of this episode. I think the switch in Cisco doesn't make sense to me. I think smiley's deciding not to go to the alternate universe doesn't make sense and and Cisco's turn

although we see it slightly coming is way too quick for me way too quick but don't you think that another person can wake someone up by going it's it's like a mental slap of going what are you doing what have you become yes absolutely and and don't you think that that could motivate him to go, wait a minute, I have more agency here than I'm taking. I've been told I have no agency, but I have it and I can use it and I can do it. You know, what you talked about before of everyone being forced into this place, sometimes a mental slap can make you go, I can. I can just say no.

Right. And I saw that in the smiley character where he voices, he says what he hopes to be, but there's nothing. There's not one word out of Cisco. All we get is one or possibly two looks from Cisco as his subordinates when danger is being threatened and when smile is being threatened. And then he says it. I would, we talk about a missing scene.

I would like to see a scene where he confines with danger, perhaps, or with somebody that, you know what? The very thing you said, Nana, write that out, give it to him. That's my missing scene. Yeah. I like it. I think I'm not sure who said it, but Garrett, you may have

that this really could have been a movie. And if it had been expanded and had those missing scenes. Yeah, it would be, it is literally a half hour that could be put into this. Or this could have been a two part. This could have been a two-parter at least. How about a three-parter?

Sorry, three-parter. Three-parter would have been even better. Thank you. Well, this is where we go into question. Fork's life and see what his daily life is before he gets, you know, horribly killed. Yeah, I'd love to see that. And a three-partner would have done it justice. Yeah. Yeah, it's true. Well, they say their goodbyes. We're inside the runabout. They do escape, barely getting past this Klingon cruiser that comes to try to catch them. Wush, they go into the

wormhole. And as they go in the wormhole, we cut back to real life, DS9. And we see that Cisco is very concerned. They've been looking for them. Suddenly they pick up somebody coming out of the exiting the wormhole and on screen. There are Kira and Bashir. Cisco says, where have you been? And Kira says, through the looking glass. Good to be home. Yeah, it is a quick wrap up, Armin. I will say, it did feel like, whoa, all of a sudden, everything's solved. Yeah. It felt a bit sudden. What is our theme or lesson that we're going to learn from this episode? The underlying message, Robbie McNeil.

My lesson in this is a reminder that even the tiny changes or choices we make in our life can alter the course of our future in a big way. That life could be very different based on crossroads and which direction we choose to go, tiny things. Yeah. I like that. Armand? Those that resign their freedoms are dead, though they continue to exist. Freedom must be there for all, not just for the privileged few. Love that. I like that. Love that. That's what I get for the episode. Yeah. Absolutely. Wow. That's great. Thank you, Armin. Nanah, do you have a quick little?

Any lesson? Yeah. Any lessons? I see it as a character study that everyone contains multitudes and it's your actions that make character that make you who you are and the same person can look out and do good for others or turn inwards and become a vulnerable narcissist. but that it's possible for anyone to cultivate who they want to be because we contain multitudes we have choices yeah we have the freedom to choose the light side or the dark side in a way i guess you know garr what about you yeah i'm going to go with the the scene with with sid and call him uh essentially sid gives column you know he gives smiley some hope you know

he gives smiley some hope. And I'm just going to say that you can really help someone pick themselves up just by a conversation. Like if you take the time to just acknowledge somebody else and talk to them and treat them with respect and humanity and decency, that sometimes gives someone hope that they can, you know, pick themselves off the ground or wherever that dark place they're in. And I just think a small little conversation or a little bit of random act of kindness can go along. long way. I think that's beautiful. May I add to that? Yes. If you give them a dream, they can live full. There you go. I like that. Which is what Bashir does for Smiley. It gives him a dream that he can live for. Yeah, I like that. But then Smiley goes with the pirates.

Yeah, it makes no sense. I love the pirates. I'm sorry, it doesn't make sense. I'm joining the fetish pirates. I'm going to be a space pirate. Sounds great. A space fetish pirate, Robbie. You're going to throw the fetish in there. The Patreon poll theme underlying message more of this episode as submitted by Paul M is, we can all become many different versions of ourselves dependent on circumstances and decisions we make. That's what Nana said. Same idea. Similar. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, thank you, everyone, for tuning into this recap and discussion. And thank you very much, of course, to Nanaugh visitor for joining us. Yeah. I'm glad to be here. Thank you. Join us next time when we will be recapping and discussing the episode, The Collaborator. And that will be with Terry.

So join us then. For all of our Patreon patrons, please stay tuned for your bonus material. And a little bit more, Nana. Thanks, everyone. Bye. Bye. Thanks, everybody.