The Delta Flyers - Duet

Episode Date: April 16, 2024

The Delta Flyers is hosted by Garrett Wang, Robert Duncan McNeill, Terry Farrell & Armin Shimerman. In each podcast release they will recap and discuss an episode of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine. This week’s episode is, Duet, hosted by Garrett Wang, Robert Duncan McNeill, Armin Shimerman, and Nana Visitor..Duet: Kira's investigation of a visiting Cardassian leads her to believe the man is a notorious war criminal guilty of several atrocities.Be sure to check out Nana’s upcoming book: Star Trek: Open a Channel: A Woman's Trekhttps://www.simonandschuster.net/books/Star-Trek-Open-a-Channel-A-Womans-Trek/Nana-Visitor/Star-Trek/9798886633016We want to thank everyone who makes this podcast possible, starting with our Production Managers Megan Elise & Rebecca McNeillAdditionally we could not make this podcast available without our Executive Producers:Stephanie Baker, Jason M Okun, Marie Burgoyne, Kris Hansen, Chris Knapp, Janet K Harlow, Heidi Mclellan, Rich Gross, Mary Jac Greer, Mike Gu, Tara Polen, AJC, Nicholaus Russell, Lisa Robinson, Alex Mednis, Holly Schmitt, James H. Morrow, Roxane Ray, Andrew Duncan, David Buck, Ian Ramsey, Feroza Mehta, Jonathan Brooks, Gemma Laidler, Rob Traverse, Matt Norris, Stephanie Lee, Izzy Jaffer, Jan Hanford, & Sam MikelicOur Co-Executive Producers:Liz Scott, Eve England, Sab Ewell, Sarah A Gubbins, Luz R., Dannielle Kaminski, Utopia Science Fiction Magazine, Courtney Lucas, Matthew Gravens, Captain Jeremiah Brown, E & John, Deike Hoffmann, Anna Post, Shannyn Bourke, Tom Paynter, Jenna Appleton, Lee Lisle, Sarah Thompson, Holly Smith, Amy Tudor, Mark G Hamilton, KMB, Dominic Burgess, Mary Burch, Sandra Stengel, Normandy Madden, Joseph Michael Kuhlman, Darryl Cheng, Elizabeth Stanton, Kayla Knilans, Tim Beach, Victor Ling, Shambhavi Kadam, Tae Phoenix, Donna Runyon, Nicholas Albano, Daniel O’Brien, Danie Crofoot, Steven Lugo, Penny Liu, Lisa Hill, David Smith, & Stacy DavisAnd our Producers:Philipp Havrilla, James Amey, Patrick Carlin, Richard Banaski, Ann Harding, Meredith Hudes-Lowder, Trip Lives, Samantha Weddle, Chloe E, Paul Johnston, Carole Patterson, Warren Stine, Jocelyn Pina, Mike Fillmon, Chad Awkerman, Mike Schaible, AJ Provance, Captain Nancy Stout, Claire Deans, Maxine Soloway, Barbara Beck, Brianna Kloss, Dat Cao, Stephen Riegner, Debra Defelice, Vikki Williams, Cindy Ring, Alicia Kulp, Kelly Brown, Jason Wang, Gabriel Dominic Girgis, Rob Johnson, Maria Rosell, Heather Choe, Michael Bucklin, Lisa Klink, Dominique Weidle, Justin Weir, Jesse Bailey, Mike Chow, Kevin Hooker, Matt Edmonds, Ryan Benoit, John Richardson, Heather Selig, Rachel Shapiro, Clark Ochikubo, Stephanie Aves, David J Manske, Seth Carlson, Amy Rambacher, Jessica B, E.G. Galano, Tim Neumark, Will Forg, Ryan Tomei-Sigurðarson, Charlie Faulkner, Estelle Keller, James Lyszczek, Russell Nemhauser, Lawrence Green, Greg Kenzo Wickstrom, Lisa Gunn, Lauren Rivers, Jennifer B, Dean Chew, Linda Daireaux, Mars DeVore, Jennifer Vaughn, Walkerius Logos, PJ Pick, Preston Meyer, Ryan Mahieu, Andrew Cook-Feltz, Karen Galleski, Rik Moran, Constance, Loretta Reyes, & Timothy McMichensThank you for your support!“Our creations are protected by copyright, trademark and trade secret laws. Some examples of our creations are the text we use, artwork we create, audio, and video we produce and post. You may not use, reproduce, distribute our creations unless we give you permission. If you have any questions, you can email us at [e-mail].”Our Sponsors:* Check out Mint Mobile: https://mintmobile.com/TDFSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-delta-flyers/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Welcome to the Delta Flyers Journey Through the Warm Hole with Dax, Quark, Tom, and Harry. Your host for today are my fellow Trek actors, Armand Shimmerman, Nana Visitor, Robert Duncan McNeil, and myself, Garrett Wong. And for the complete and stupendous version of this podcast, please check out patreon.com forward slash the Delta Flyers. sign up to become a patron today. Welcome to NNAV visitor. I can't believe it. So excited to have you. I'm really glad to be here with you too.

This is fun. With you three, with Armin, I'm not leaving him out. Leave him arm and out. He was left out of this episode, so he might as well read me out. You had the best joke in the episode, though. I have actually a reading that I was very proud of, actually. It was great. One line was, was it, do you think they gamble?

Was that the line? Yeah, I thought, oh, less is more, Armin. Your timing was impeccable. Oh, my God. And it was very needed at that moment to have a little levity. It was, yes, you did an important job. Yes. Yes.

But it's a wonderful episode. I'm definitely looking forward to hearing everything that Nott has to say about her experience on it. It is, for me, one of the ultimate episodes that we ever did, best episodes we ever did. And the performances of especially in the non-Harris Hewlin are extraordinary. Thank you so much. And I think it's so telling that it was a bottle episode. You know, they'd spent all the money on special effects. So it was just a few people and a simple script and to keep it tight and keep it cheap.

And that's when you really see the creativity of our writers, how great they are. It felt like a play to me. It felt a little bit like a two-hander, even though, yes, Armand you had the best joke in the episode, there were other people. But it really, it felt in a literary sense of the writing, the ideas, the language, the way that it all played out. It felt like a play. The progression of both characters was extraordinary. I don't think we often saw that sort of wonderful progression for both characters. extraordinary.

It was written by Peter Allen Fields and kudos to him and the rest of the writing staff that contributed. Yeah. Yeah, you know, the other thing is of all the episodes we've reviewed so far, I think the writers crammed in more dialogue in this episode than any other episode.

Literally like page count. Oh, my gosh. It was like an episode of the West Wing. It was like, how many, you know, they just cramped it all in. It was amazing. Can you imagine being Harris Eulen? I mean, he's,

stellar actors so and at the time so experienced. But you know how hard it is to come in on a Star Trek show? The language, the makeup, the amount of dialogue he had, the depth of emotion that was necessary. I mean, he went from laughing to crying and it takes me every time to tears the way he does it. It's extraordinary he was able to do it. In an eight-day shoot. I think any other guest actor would have crumbled under all of that, especially with the makeup. A lot of pressure. A lot of pressure going on. Yeah. When you're not used to that. Yeah. Before we get too deep into the episode, I want to make sure we get some birthdays in here. So we've got a few birthdays. Garrett, who do we start with? Yeah. So we're going to start off with

Lisa Robinson. Let's just say happy birthday to Lisa Robinson. April 15th. Happy birthday, Lisa. Happy birthday, Lisa. We've also got Nicholas Russell also on Tax Day, April 15th. Happy birthday, Nicholas. Happy birthday, Nicklaus. Happy birthday, Nicholas. Pay your taxes. Okay, and one more birthday.

We've got James Liz Check on April 20th. Happy birthday, James. Happy birthday, James. Happy birthday. All right, so this episode is Duets. Yet, it was, it aired originally on June 14th, 1993, not that long ago. Seems like yesterday to me. It does.

Let me run through these guest stars real quick, Robbie. We have Mark Alamo as Gold Dakot. We have Robin, Christopher, as Nila. She had a very quick scene with O'Brien, basically, in ops. We have Norman Large as the Coburian freighter captain. Tony Rizoli as the rabble-rousing Bajoran Kynon. We have Ted Sorrell as Caval, the Bajoran Minister of State, and of course, Harris Hewlin as Maritzah.

Those are our guest stars. Phenomenal. Let's just jump right into our poetry, shall we? Sure. Our poetry, our etymology. I'm going to start with my limerick for the episode duet. Here we go. My synopsis.

This pretty much captures the entire plot, I think. When a Cardassian tries some real funny business, he says he's got the Kala Nora camp illness. Kira's bitterness is on fire, but the truth is her real desire, and closure is only found in forgiveness. Oh. Not bad, not bad. Not bad. Right. Not bad.

I wanted to live up to this great episode, so I tried a little extra hard. Yeah. Okay. I do. I'm impressed with that one. I will be doing the haiku, nah, and the haiku is much more simplistic, five-syllable, seven-syllable, five-syllable. My haiku for duet. Yes.

Maritsa is sick. Kira has found the butcher. Clerk can't live with guilt. Nice. I like the impressionism of a haiku. Yeah, I do too. I like haiku a lot. I do too.

Very nice. Armin, do you have an etymology of duet? Yes. Duet is a musical composition for two voices or two performers, which is a perfect description of the two actors at the top of their game in this episode. The etymology of duet comes from the Italian duetto, which means two. And in French, of course, it's also dear. So it is a perfect name for this episode because it is,

a symphony of two people playing off of each other. Yes. It's funny, I use some musical terms in my recap like notes. I used the word crescendo at one point. I used the, I had the idea that this was a dance a bit. You know what I mean, Nana? Like, is there, what is, what's the word for two people in a dance, like a ballet or something?

Tango. A tango? Yeah, you ever did? Because that can be violent and, passionate at the same time yeah tango is a great analogy great metaphor for this well as said as said by armin earlier the teleplay was by peter allen fields story by lisa rich and ampersand and genie carrigan and i didn't have to look up how to pronounce this it's a name that we've all heard fouchy dash fouchy probably no relation directed by our good friend jim conway which i know i was so

He directed a lot of DS9 and Voyager episodes. Was this his first DS9? I don't remember seeing his name on an earlier episode. It's season one, but late in season one. Do you remember, Nana? If this was the first time? I don't, but I had such a safe sense with him. I'm thinking it wasn't his first,

but it could have been because he certainly brings that to the set. There's a calm reason, and you feel like he's going to catch what he needs to catch and allow you what he needs to allow you. So, yeah, I just remember a huge sense of safety with him. Which is important for you to have the best, the chance for the best work for you to come. You know, that's a good thing to have that safety blanket. I took the liberty of getting in touch with Jim. He's enormously proud of this episode.

And he gave me some insights, which I'll bring in later on and attribute them to Jim. But he was very, very proud of this episode, and I'm just passing along his desire to say thank you for us doing this. He's a lovely man. You know, Nana, I live in Utah now, and Jim Conway lives very close to me, and we're tennis buddies in the summer. Oh, how great. I love that. And it's funny, Armin, that you reached out to him. I thought about reaching out to Jim, but I was like, no, Nana's our stuff.

special guests. I don't want to, I don't, I was going to invite Jim to join us as well, but maybe we'll, maybe I'll follow up with him too. He's given me about four or five insights, which I will share when the time is. Perfect. Well, there's wonderful. There you go. That's great. That's like extra credit, Harmon. We're going to give you brownie five. I know, right? We didn't even ask you to do that. I thought about I didn't do it, but Armand, you're good. You're at top of it. Okay. All right. So we start out with an exterior space shot of the lovely Deep Space 9, and we jump right into ops where we have Kira and Dax talking about their childhood shenan when they get this hail from an incoming Koberian freighter requesting

permission to dock. They have a passenger on board who is in need of medical attention from a condition known as Kala Nora. Sisko tells the freighter captain to beam this patient to the infirmary. Kira asked Sisko to allow her to go down to the infirmary to meet the patient. And when he asks why, Kira says that only cases of Kalanora that she's familiar with are a result of a mining accident in a Bajoran forced labor camp called Galatep that she actually helped liberate from the Kardashians. And so these survivors of a Galatep were symbols of strength and courage to all Bajorans. So she's very proud of that. And she kind of wants to go and say hello and all this because in her mind, this patient is Bajoran, basically. So since Cisco does grant

this request and i love i love this scene by the way yeah the way that jim conway um directed it it was it was a lot of like moving you were moving around the bridge or the bridge the ops you're moving around ops a lot and i hadn't noticed that with any directors before with that much movement like one person carrying the shot to another character and um do you remember did you move around a lot on the bridge? I don't remember it before this episode. In Ops? Yeah, I did. There was a lot. And in the pilot,

who's that wonderful director? His name escapes me right now, but he encouraged me to move around a lot too. So, yeah, I tended to, I tended to travel on that set. Yeah. What I found lovely in context of the arc of the episode is, and you touched upon it, the, the talk of what they, what Dax

and Kira did as childhood people, which gives you the sense that they're just, it's an everyday, it's another day on Deep Space 9 and they're going through their, their responsibilities, nothing special about that day. And of course, it turns into an incredibly special day. Yeah. The content, I love that they started out on that key. of trivial, forgive me, but trivial dialogue, just two friends talking about old days and what they used to do

and not knowing what fate has in store for them. Yeah. No, no, that director from the pilot episode was David Carson. David Carson, who I love so much. And who is partly responsible for our being here today. That's right. He cast you guys.

That's right. Yeah, that's right. Wow, well, I love this scene. I also loved that when she hears about this, when you heard about this illness and Jim Conway moved the camera into this close-up, you were in the foreground, which was really nice. You could see that it was landing in some important way. But at that point, you thought, oh, this must be a survivor.

This must be a, I've got to go meet my hero, you know, not knowing where it was going to take you. I thought it was really well done. And that Kabirin, by the way, that alien freighter captain. You like his look. That was a cool makeup. Yeah. I love that makeup.

And his wardrobe looked good too. Yeah. I agree. We have another exterior space shot at the station and now we're in the infirmary where Kira walks into find Bashir working on the patient who is initially blocked from her eyeline because Bashir is standing in front of him. But as she gets closer, she sees that this patient is not Bajoran, but actually Cardassian. This was a cool move.

I noticed Jim Conway doing something I hadn't seen in your show yet. he would start scenes with with some shoe leather, with movement, people coming in, bringing the shot to where the story is. And in this one, I remember, Nana, you walked in. It panned off of you, handed off to Bashir, and the Bashir came around, and the shot continued right into the Cardassians close-up. It was beautifully. Pretty elegant.

Very elegant. Yeah. Yeah, it was great. Yeah. Well, she immediately hails Odo to have security report to the infirmary, because now she knows. Thank God she did because he tries to run. If you want to call that running, go ahead, you know.

It was more of a saunter. I'm going to say saunter. It didn't look like a run to me, but okay. As we learned later, he wasn't really trying to get away. He wanted to be. He was like, I'm kind of running, but I'm running so that you can catch me. It's kind of the way he did it. Yes.

We returned from opening credits. basically we we have he's running right outside and he's caught by odo and the security team and this is the beginning of of the mayhem yeah we go to the promenade next that's where odo catches him with the security team and he says he he was running it's just one person one guy security team oh i thought there was two there was only one other guy with him i think there's two brown uniforms there's like man i said it's a bottle show they didn't know it is money for that money for the extra background it did i want to talk about that later but they did have money for extras i want to talk about that later okay okay so this guy does his fake run into the

hallway runs right into the one security guy all right but he says i was running because kira is clearly a fanatic she was going to kill me yeah and that's when kira says this guy is a war criminal Yeah. So she knows because of the illness and he's a Cardassian. He had to be a bad guy. Must have been a bad. I thought it was interesting at the end of the scene. She says, he's not just any Cardassian.

He's a war criminal. And then Odo looks at her, nods to the security guy and just takes him to a cell. Like, there's no more conversation. I think Odo would have said, wait, a war criminal. Hold on. Restraint, like, there would have been a conversation. But Odo's just like, I got you. Good enough for me.

Kier and says her. Done. He's out. He's out. We are, next up, we're in the security office. And it starts off with Odo saying that the Cardassian, now we know the name, is Amen. Amen. Amen. Amen. Amen. Amen, Marisa, is not on any wanted lists for war crimes. And this, you know, this kind of is a bit of a trigger for Kira, because Kira just definitely feels that if you are at Galatep, you're a criminal. If you're a Cardassian, you are a criminal. And, well, it's Cisco that decides to go have a talk with Eamon after this scene.

Any comments on this security? I have a comment, Nana, you were phenomenal in this scene. Like, it's early in the episode, but you have this long speech where you describe the bodies, what the Cardassian policy was. The way that you took this language, which could have been, big and broad and theatrical, which could have worked as well, but your choice to be grounded, and I would call it like naturalism in this episode for you in a way that we don't often see in the Star Trek that we did back in the day. That kind of grounded naturalism was rare,

and you did a beautiful job of it, and your speech was very, very moving and just great. The speech, it was one line, really, that she did. she had to do all that acting that she did. It was just the one line about, you know, murder was just the end of the fun for them. That was her one line. And again, very, very early in the episode. And to see that you had already brought it, so to speak, in this early part of the episode is very, very impressive. So wonderful job, Nan.

So I have a question about the naturalism. I was certainly struck by that as well. Was that something, Nanah, that you chose? or was that something that Jim was advocating from both of you? That was something that was building for me with this character. I'm actually doing a TEDx talk next week based on what happened to me in my life, but also in how, you know, I went to a place where you see my body responding to these thoughts that I'm dropping into my head, my body and mind are believing the situations that I'm telling

myself. And I didn't often come out because I wanted certainty. I wanted to know I'd be ready when the camera was ready. And I would stay in these traumatized emotional states to the point where it affected my brain, certainly, for good and for bad. But that was the show. So that was probably the night that I started dreaming major Kira's dreams, not mine. Dreaming about the story of her life, the things that happened to her? As if they were memories and traumatic dreams. And so, yeah, I now would do it in a very different way. You can get the same result, that sense of naturalism.

I personally think as an actor to honor the people who have been in her shoes, you have to get there. You know, anything else is trivializing. So, but now I know a much better way of doing it and coming in and coming out. I would just stay there. And it was damaging. Do you remember conversations with Jim Conway, like how he directed this? Did he talk about things like the obvious analogy is concentration camps, Nazi concentration camps came to my mind.

No, he was, that's part of what made him so safe, is that he trusted you to get it as an actor. He trusted where you were. And like any great collaborator, when you were on a beam, he just stayed out of your way. And if you weren't, then he was there to just in a few words. I don't know if you had this experience as well, Armand. He was a director of very few, very calm words and would let you take it.

So that's what I remember. No, no, you talk about how you stayed in character the entire time and that sort of deep, deep undercover, deep method that you were using at the time. But now you found something that you don't have to beat yourself. up so much, which is great that you have a new process now. And it's rare in this day and age to find actors that stay in character the entire time. Daniel Day Lewis is famous for that. Daniel Day Lewis is very famous for that.

Yeah. In fact, if anyone breaks that mold that he creates, they're fired from the film. Wow. Wow. Yeah. I mean, I certainly at the time thought it was my responsibility to manage my And it was never a deal on set. But I did some research, and there are a lot of people who still do it. And I think the more money people are paid, the more they feel that they need to go to this place.

And I mean, you look at some actors and some of the crises their lives go through. And it's following the movie they just did. or the years they just did. And I think it's something that needs to be talked about for some actors, the way to keep yourself emotionally safe. Yeah, because it does creep over into your personal life when you don't even realize it. It's going to do that.

And like you said, these crazy things that happen in their personal lives happened right after the project that they just finished filming. So you're on the money on that one. I've read so many interviews where they talk about, my god it took me i actually had to go to therapy after this i mean a lot of people when you look into it and yeah it's it's just and it's just protocols of coming in and out yeah and and talking about and being aware of it and knowing when you you're keeping a mindset going i could see i could see the work you did in this episode that it was very personal and very yeah you know you had a lot of

internal life going on that was very yeah the naturalism to me jumped out right away as being different than any other episode you know very very rare on star trek in the 90s because it's about personal things this episode is personal for the two major characters two important lead characters in the episode and it's not about boldly going to another planet and solving to somebody else's problem. It's very personal, which makes it more readily to be something you take internally intrinsically. Major Kira, for me, was an opportunity to, you know, in the 90s, women didn't get angry. Women needed to be reasonable and attractive and effable and all those things. That's what those were the boundaries we were kept in because I was an alien. I got to be angry. I got to

be angry at the lead character that, no, that unless you're a bad person, that didn't exist. And in this episode, I experienced being wrong and being a lead character and being wrong. And that was completely far to me. And I said about going in and out, there is a shot at the end of this scene that I was just gobsmere, by. I've never seen it replicated on our show. It might be, but I just don't remember it. Cisco decides to leave Odo's office and walk into the cell chamber. The cameras watch a Cisco leave. It then goes to Odo, I believe. And we see Harris on the view screen. And then as Nana and Renee are speaking, we see on the view screen.

And this is all done as a oneer. Yep. We see a Cisco enter into the view screen and approach Harris's character. I'd never seen that before. I love that shot. It's one of my favorite shots in this episode. And I don't know if anyone ever replicated that ever on our show. I noticed it as well.

I made a note here, elegant transition as he panned to the monitor. You see Cisco exit. and then you see Cisco enter the cell by the cell in real time in real time it makes this environment so real it's not just cutting from one spaceship shot to another you know yeah i mean he utilized otto's security camera is what screen is what it was right of the cell the holding cell which again amazing really good job really good job well speaking of the holding cell so So Cisco comes in in our next scene. They're in the holding cell area.

Cisco is interrogating him, basically. And he's being very evasive. I loved Harris's choice to sort of, when he was lying early on, he was not looking at Cisco. His eyes were sort of darting around the floor. It was a nice little detail. He says that he was a file clerk and doesn't, he has colonora. Oh, he says he doesn't have cholinora. He says he has Patrick syndrome.

But it's the same medication. So he's lying to Cisco here, looking away constantly. And there's this drunk pejorin in the other cell who starts to sober up. He was in the drunk tank, I guess, Odo Thruman. His name is Canaan. Canaan? They never say his name. I said Kynon, but no one ever says his name.

He's just the drunk belligerent guy. Yeah. But he sees the Cardassian, doesn't want to be anywhere near him. He calls for Odo to get him out of there. You know, one criticism I had in an episode that was so naturalistic, I think this actor's performance jumped out at me. It felt too big. It felt, I don't know, because he's going to be such an important part of the lesson of this episode later on, I wish he had been as grounded in his, as real in the same world as the rest of the story.

That's my one comment there. And I don't have that problem because racism is never subtle or it can't. can be subtle, but lots of times. Very good point. And his racism was there obvious. And of course, although Pira never mentions anything like that, we can assume, I can assume, if not you, that you have some of that racism built into you as well. And that's what the episode is about, is it purging that from you. I don't think that guest actor had that in mind when he was doing that. I don't think he felt like, you know, racism has to be like this. I'm going to be bigger.

I agree with Robbie in that tonally. He seems like he's a little bit different than everything else. It's a little off. But then again, it still works because it is a racist attitude. Yeah, you make a good point, Armin. Yeah, that's a good point. I didn't think of it from that angle, but it did seem a little out of place to me. But maybe that's a good thing, ultimately, that it was so blatant that it was so.

Racism is always not, what was the word you using, off point or something? something. Yeah. But in comparison with the other guest actor with Harris, who is absolutely amazing, there is that delineation between, you know, his performance and Kynon who has three lines or whatever it is. It's for the musical version. Yeah. Yes. He breaks into a show tune. But I find that interesting when you bring up Harris. And Armin, you know Harris very well, obviously. Well, I used to. We used to be very close, but I haven't seen him for years, actually. And then, you worked with him. I was amazed how Harris, speaking of tone and things like that,

Harris was able to play very big moments, but I never felt like he was too much. I bought all of it. His highs, his lows, his subtle, his big. I bought all of it. What I can't tell you about him during the times that I was, that I would see him on a regular basis, he was a consummate stage actor.

And not only stage actor, but also stage director, he was, he was just great at both. And so what he was able to do for the camera is give you a real believable theatrical performance that, that was astounding to watch. Grounded. It was so grounded. And from what Jim Conway told me, also crafted in the sense that he said Harris, purpose, took different points of view for each of the meetings with Kira so that he was slightly different. He said his body reacted differently. He said his attitudes reacted differently. And I noticed in the second viewing of this that Jim helped that by setting Harris's posture and putting the camera in different places so that he was always being viewed or being

seen from a different point of view, I think helps keep the mystery of this character alive and well until the very end. Yeah, great point. Yeah, I love that he was laying down at one point. He had him, you know, lying down a little bit of the ceiling. Yes, yeah. And no matter how much alien makeup you have on him, that voice, that you still know, it's Harris Hewlett, it's just right off the bat.

I know who that is, you know, he's, yeah, so memorable. My first introduction to him was in a play called Watch on the Run. that he did at Longworth in New Haven, which they eventually brought to Broadway. He had a one-dimensional character. He was a Nazi sympathizer, very close, actually, to what he does in this episode. And it was a one-dimensional character.

There was nothing to it on the page. He stole the show as a three-four-dimensional character. That's when I thought, oh, my God, who the hell is this guy? he is but not wow yeah wow all right we go to the commander's office next bashear comes in he confirms that he does have calenora not potricks so he's been he's been claiming he's got patrick syndrome but he's lying so he's definitely a liar and uh this definitely proves that he was at on galatep at that camp when this outbreak happened so cisco gets a call from a pejoran minister cavall gives him a

call. He thanked Cisco for getting this war criminal and insists that the Bajoran ministry wants him. And you can see at the end of the scene, Cisco is very torn because something about this doesn't make sense. You know, Cisco is very cautious in this episode. I thought his performance, Avery's performance was great in his sort of weighing the evidence he had at any given moment and not jumping to conclusions. And yeah, I agree. It's great. helping us the audience also not know for sure what's happening and which side to take. Yeah, yeah. But Cisco gets that call.

So we go to the Replomat next. We see Kira sitting there with a nice flower arrangement on the table, by the way. Yes. Little, whatever that was. And the portal opening behind as well, that was a lovely shot. That was for the background. Yeah. And I want to get to background in a second.

I think this also another. I didn't make a note of it, but I remember Cisco coming to meet her, he's coming down some steps. Jim did a lot of this, as I said earlier, shoe leather that you would see people arriving. You'd see their approach. It would give you a sense of the context, of the space that they're in. It was, you know, coming down that spiral staircase and then going over to meet her and seeing that door, like you said, Armin. Great. It was just all lots of layers of detail about where these characters are in space.

and how the space influence. And speaking of where they are, what I love that he did was now the background. And I mean background actors. There was always, almost in every shot, there are background actors that are filling up the space. Like I said about the opening scene for Kira and Dax. They're just doing their normal things.

They're just doing everyday things that you see them in the background. They're moving around. They're shopping. They're window shopping. They're doing things. that that are just everyday things while this incredible thing is happening that they're not aware of. I love the dichotomy of that, of the triviality of what they were doing compared to the

enormity of what Kira was doing. Yeah. And Cisco, for that matter. Yeah. And episode to episode, different directors that come in value that kind of thing more than others. Jim definitely wanted to create a world, not just tell this story and of action. but create the world that it's happening.

He's telling you this is happening on Deep Space Nine, and he's giving us people from Deep Space Nine. We may not recognize them, but they are there, and it's telling that there's the life of the station is going on even while this is happening. Well, Cisco once comes to talk to Kira, he wants Odo to run this investigation. He thinks that she is too close to be objective,

but she promises that she can be trusted to do this, that she owes it to the victims to investigate. And this is something the Bajorans need to do themselves. And she asked him to let a Bajoran do it. I loved the ideas of that, of her making her case, and I thought you did it beautifully. And it was great. And again, it was another scene that was in the 90s,

not anything I would have been, you know, the depth, the importance of the moment, but also making a case going, no, let me do this. That was that I didn't get to do those scenes, except in this show. For female characters in the 90s to question the authority figure above them, to basically debate them, to almost sass off at them was unheard of, you know what I'm saying? So it was wonderful to watch this. Unless you were thought of as, you know, someone.

Some evil bad, yeah, totally. About the heavy. Yeah, totally. Or me. Or me. Or me. Or, yeah, or cork. Yeah.

Or quark. But Cisco does agree. He calls Odo. He says Major Kira is going to be in charge of this Marissa investigation. And Odo doesn't question it. He gets it. So, yeah. Yeah, really, really well written.

We go to the security office next. Kira arrives. The drunk guy is being let out. And he does say in passing. He wants Odo to live. let him know when he hangs the Cardassian or when he lets this you know whatever happened he wants to know what happens to this Cardassian so it's it's tracking this character's he does say hang you're absolutely right yeah hang obligation is lynch yes yes it is absolutely you can sense a bit of

like um yeah um what is it called crowd justice or you know vigilante justice you can sense that for sure Yeah. But he leaves. The drunk guy leaves. Odo updates Kira on what he's found out. At this point, Odo feels like Marisa is who he says he is. He was a military instructor for the last five years at a military academy. And Kira gets that information and then decides to go into the holding cell and question him for the first time. So she's starting her investigation here. And she questions that information the way she normally would about anything else. usually on the show she was right about those other choices about you know looking at from a different point of view so we we listen to this and we go yeah yeah of course she has a

good point a very good point and we think that's going to happen the expectation is she's right and we're going to follow that and the magnificence of the writing is we won't know for a long period of time what the truth is yeah the truth is out there but we don't know what it is yeah it's truly It's truly an onion where we are unfolding layer by layer by layer. And there's no skipping forward. We literally get each layer independently of the next layer, which is wonderful. It's great. And that is a tribute to the writing and to Harris and to Harris.

Unbelievable. And Nana. Different Maritzis constantly. Constantly, there's a different Maritza. In this scene where Kira comes in, he was belligerent in the first one. Now he seems calm. He's eating. it's just who is this this is not the guy that we just saw before yeah he seems to be on

his meds now you know and as we learn what's really going on he is beautifully sort of playing into everyone's assumptions and biases like he's playing them beautifully he's really an incredibly clever character and ultimately I think when kira is on to the whole thing jumping to the end. I think he's surprised that he's sort of busted because he's so clever. He really is a smart man, a smart character to have played, you know, come up with his plan and played everybody, like you said, Armin, perfectly. Seen to scene to scene. He's a different guy playing into whatever he needs to play into to keep his plan going. And to you two, who are not familiar with the show as Nanan. We know that most of the Cardassian characters were

endowed with this desire to play wheels within wheels and to play chess games. I mean, Garrick is also a Cardassian, and he does the same thing called Dakot, to some extent, not as well as those two, but he too is playing games. We see that in the scene with Mark later on, but this is typical Cardassian behavior. However, Harris takes it to a new level, as Andy Robinson will do with Garrick as well. Nanah, I have a question for you. So did you and Harris, in working with him, did you guys end up running lines in the makeup trailer?

Did you do any rehearsals? Did anything? No. None of that. No. It was, and it served a kind of wonderful purpose. We stayed away from each other. And when we met on set to do these is when we dealt with each other.

And I can see myself as a young woman trying to stand firm with this powerful presence and not have not you know let him take me and do whatever he wants with me which he does anyway i can see how young i was and how difficult it was and to come in with such bias and certainty you know i didn't really have a lot of curiosity until the end i had certainty you're guilty i've decided that already now let's just cut to the to the end of this wow wow yeah no no he he he would run his lines and uh it would be to the point of oh my god he's never going to get through this that's what it looked like to me and but he was he he knew exactly what he was doing exactly what he was doing yeah okay well i have a jim conway comment which i will reserve for

later on that oh no i want to know now oh no you have to wait just like this at armin we're gonna peel back he's playing us like fools i feel it armin okay so kira goes in to interrogate him this is where i wrote down this scene felt like a dance to me yeah it was a wonderful scene the the the the gamesmanship between both of them was very grounded very naturalistic she's interrogating him he's being evasive um she says she knows that he lied that he was on galateap and so he admits okay you got me i was a filing clerk but when she brings up the atrocities he denies it he says no there were no atrocities. There was a rumor that Galdar Heel made up atrocities to terrify the Bajorans to keep him in line, but it wasn't real. He just knew how to play them, which was

interesting that he was sort of, you know, revealing his own game in a way. He was playing everybody else. But he does accuse Kira in the scene of not wanting the truth, that she just wants vengeance. And you can see it land on you, Nana, that you're like, wait, what? What? Oh, you know, that there's some truth in that. It's a brilliant moment. It's a brilliant reaction shot. Good work, Nina. Really good work.

Thanks. Yeah. You know, the lines that really kind of resonated were, at least that I remember, is one line where Kira says, turned out we weren't so helpless. We did get rid of you. And Maritza responds with leaving was a political decision major. I didn't know anything about the occupation of Bejoin.

But that line in itself was like, What? That killed me. Yeah. Yeah. So much of what he said was so hard to stand. Oh, my God. Yeah.

Yeah. He also did something. Do you remember when she says something like, what was your job? What did you do? And he goes, you'll be disappointed. Yeah, yeah. His reading was so. Playing with me.

Playful and unexpected, you know, to take a line like you'll be disappointed. and to put a vocal spin on it the way he did with his tone and... Yes. And it places Major Kira in this place of, yeah, you're just stuck. You want an outcome and you're going to roll until you get one. And he was right. Yeah. And that reading is very different from the rest of the readings that he gave in earlier scenes

and we'll give in future scenes. He was playing every note that he could possibly play. play on the on the instrument that was his character yeah it's it's extraordinary uh it's extraordinary arman did you mention the napkin did the napkin happen in this scene no it may not i just the napkin is one when he pulls it up like that before he's the major things i remember oh my god the napkin i don't think it's in this scene exactly though maybe another it might be a little later um i don't know if he talks about take me to the executioner or something right he says i'm going to something like, I'm going to die.

And then he just brings it up. Yeah. Like pulling the shroud over the dead body, you know, movement. Yeah. And there isn't an actor alive who would dare to put something between them, their face, and the camera. Yeah. Except for Harris.

He won't let them. Just won't let them. Yeah. But he, whether was his idea or Conways, I don't know. Or maybe it was yours, Nana. But I don't think so. But that must have been a surprise the first time he did it. Must have been. If you can remember that far back, I can't, but maybe you can't.

Yes. I mean, the whole performance was, it was, I found it hard to stand my ground in Barrett. It was so offensive, so offensive, and so purposely offensive to the Bajorn people. Yeah. Yeah, that's great. Well, we go to the commander's office next. Cisco is talking to Gull Ducat on a monitor. Cisco wants to verify their prejordial. prisoner's identity. And he says, he says, don't you trust him if he tells you who he is?

And Cisco's like, no, I don't trust him because he's already lied to us. So, no. And Dukot says he hopes that the Bajoran bitterness doesn't cause bitterness between the Federation,

the Cardassians. So he's sort of also bringing up the point that sometimes these kind of, these what's the word I'm looking for resentments

resentments maybe yeah these kind of I would go further I would say race prejudice yes this kind of racism exactly can infect people that aren't even involved in it but also they're carrying forward the bejorns are carrying forward

what just happened to them so there's you know there's an emotional worry that it could ever happen again and it mustn't happen again and people have to be clear about who the Kardashians are as as you know so so there's that and there is the racism as well the heuristics which is you know what our brains do to to save us energy shortcuts you don't think something through you don't you know you you see a Kardashian face, and you go, I know who that is. Instead of letting critical thought

help you decide, wait, this is a new entity. Individual. Yes. Juristics go, I know who you are, and I'm certain of it. Yeah. I have a question for, I guess, both Armin and Nana. I don't know Mark Alamo, but my question is this. I love his very measured capabilities. of the delivery of his lines. It lends into his character so much. Is that how he, I mean, how did he speak off camera? Like, does he, is this definitely something he chose is a choice as an actor? And how he delivered these lines with this very kind of, the cadence of it gives this sort

of spookiness or this sort of like, ugh, kind of thing for me. I can answer that perhaps better than you, and I, since I met Mark and worked with Mark long before Deep Space Nine. Mark and I spent three months together in Italy doing a film where we were mutton Jeff together. Wow. How funny. That is the way Mark talks.

Oh, really? Wow. Okay. Yeah. So then it fits. His character and his normal speaking is perfect for the role of Dakot. I think it's wonderful. I don't think it, I could be wrong, of course, but I don't think that was an acting choice.

I think that is just. That's his speech. pattern okay yeah all right cool thank you well um yes that that idea of racism kind of infecting people who weren't involved i think also kind of sober cisco a bit when mark alimaux says or when galdicott says i'm going to hold you personally responsible like if this starts spreading out and you're taking sides and because because he makes it he makes a case it's like wait a minute what what's going on here you suddenly ducats suddenly is speaking sense and that's a little scary too.

It is. You don't know who to trust in this story. Right. Yeah. Is racism the right term to use? Or is it speciesism? I mean, how do you, is racism correct? Is it?

Speciesism may be correct for Star Trek, but for us it's right. Yeah, the metaphor. The metaphor is racism. Yes. Yeah. We go to the promenade next. We're on upper level, a beautiful upper level with Kira staring out a window. Trying to make sense of what's going on.

on, Dax approaches. Hira is worried that she, she's worried about herself, about her own reaction in response to this, that she may not know the truth, but she's going to go after this for vengeance. And she admits in this scene, she says, I don't want him to be a file clerk.

I want him to be something worse, much worse. I want him, you know, to be a really bad guy so that the punishment will give, or in some kind of satisfaction. She's recognizing this instinct for revenge in herself. And she's troubled by it. You know, she's really struggling. And I like this scene a lot.

Dax says, Kira knows that if he's not guilty and he receives punishment as an innocent person, then it's not going to mean anything. And, yeah, it's a great scene. Here's line. As far as I'm concerned, if he was at Gallup, he is guilty. They're all guilty. really sounds a lot like drunk Kynon, doesn't it? I mean, Kynon is all about, you know,

if you're Kardassian, you should die kind of a thing. You're guilty. So it's at this point where, I mean, there's so much character development for Kira in this episode. It's unbelievable. It really is. Love it. Do you remember filming up on that,

Nana? Do you remember how it was to film up there? Because it seems tricky. It seems like a small space to me. No, no. No, it was big. I mean, to me, it was a very big space. Don't you agree, Armin?

Yeah, it was a big space. Oh, good. And it felt, you know, especially 12, 16, 18 hours into the day. Yeah. It felt like I was there. I was. Yeah. It was so fully developed.

Yeah. Everywhere you looked, you didn't see, you know, backstage. You saw the space. Space, yeah. And the twinkling star. And the stars, all of it, yeah. And I'm near-sighted, so I really didn't see the velvet. I just saw the stars.

It's like, yeah, that's space. I'm looking out into space. So the enormity of the set helped your acting. Helped, absolutely. All the whole, the whole promenade, it just felt so it was our place. You know, you walked in and it was the same. set began almost immediately. There wasn't much backstage to it at all. So, yeah, it was ridiculously amazing. Yeah, I agree. The first time I walked over onto your guys' set when I was

not, I didn't have to film, I walked in there and I went, holy moly, I was just like, this is huge. It was so big. And I kept thinking, why can't our set be like that? Why can't we have a set that big. I mean, we had engineering, and engineering had two levels. Engineering had two levels. Their second level, it was like a, it was like we were in a mall. You know how malls have like the upper level? I was like, this is a mall set.

This is massive. We were a mall. You were a mall. It was a mall. It's true. Yeah. All right. We go to ops next.

This is where O'Brien's under the console with NILA. They're upgrading the system for better enhancement of some images they're going to look at. I love when Nila's under there. So the panels that have all these buttons and things are just plexiglass panels backlit. And Nila was turning all these little, did you notice this? What? She was like adjusting it with her fingers, as if she was like a three-dimensional knob. She was turning the circles on the plexiglass.

Just thought, wow, that's bold. These are the whimsical moments that you get with guest actors that have under fives. They start doing things that you're like, well, wait. wait wait wait wait the series regular it's not a three-dimensional knob no you can i guess spin it with your finger but it's a touchpad i'm gonna watch that again i missed that it was pretty funny okay uh but otto enters with cisco confirms uh marissa was a filing clerk on galatep and he did teach at this military academy like he says um and then they uh they get the system up and running o'brien says it's ready so they look at this image dax pulls up this image from the bajoran archives it's only one

one image that they have because the Cardassians destroyed everything else. So they only have this one image. They run this enhancement program and when they zoom in on Marissa, it's not who they're holding in the cell. Clearly it's not. Yeah. And then Cisco says, well, look around at the others, the other Kardashians and enhance it. And the enhancement literally goes around.

It's so cool. It enhances and enhances like a 3D photo or something. was very cool. Can I just go back for a second? When you see, we noticed the image of the person who we think, you know, we'd look at it and say, oh, that's, that's not who's in the holding cell. Whoever they cast, that was the perfect casting of background actor because that person's face to me was the most uncardassian of Cardassians, if that makes any sense at all. Looking at him, he looked like he would be a meek file clerk. So I felt like, wow, what a great job. That was perfect. to that person would be Amin Maritzah to me.

And whoever cast him did a wonderful job. So small detail, but important detail. I also wonder if this enhancement that literally went around a foreground person standing there and enhanced the background. It's like AI. I had an AI moment there where I was like, oh my God, we're going to be able to do this soon. We're just going to be able to like see things behind things. You know, it was crazy. Forgive me for being tangential.

I was talking to Frakes a couple of days ago. And he used a term that I'm not familiar with. He called it volume. Do you know what that is? Is that what we're talking about? Volume is like, no, volume is like it is a particular brand name of a technology that is those giant screens that people film on. like the Star Wars series would film on a volume stage.

And what it does is it has a, like a satellite module on the camera. So as the camera moves around, the background that's being projected on this giant screen will move and adapt to where the camera is. So it gives it a very realistic kind of projection background. And the benefit to the actors, as I understand it, as it was explained to me, was that instead of us pretending to see a dragon coming right at us, rather we see the dragon coming right at us. Yes.

How amazing. It is amazing. Yes. They did that on the Orville. I directed the first couple on that show, the first couple seasons. The first season on the Orville, you know, where we would have, on Voyager, we had a green screen in our view screen. Probably in Ops, you had a green screen behind it.

So for everyone who's not familiar, a green screen is simply that. It's a green screen. that you project something on. I have a green screen behind me that has a projection on it. But so when the actors are working, all we see is a green screen. That's all we see.

Yeah, which was a blue screen at one point, right? It went blue screen and then became green screen. But imagine guys, if we had volume sets when we were filming D.S.9 and Voyager, where we could see the ships coming out of us. Aliens come. It would be amazing. Easy.

Easy for us. Yes. It would help our acting, definitely. We'd be focused. We all know where to look. We all know. Our eye line would match, actually. Right.

Yeah. Oh, my God. Yes, that's for sure. Okay. Well, they do this enhancement, the magic enhancement around the person in the foreground. And it is Goal Darheel. Well, it's not revealed immediately, right?

It's, it's, it's, Kira saying, no, that's him. And then as they look at the caption, they go, oh, wait, that's Goal-Darheel captioned. Yeah, really, yes. They're like, who is that? Who is that? Yeah, that's the guy we've got. What's the name on the, dock on the record.

Right. And it's gold or heel. Right. Yeah. Onion layers. Okay. More onion layers. Got to go back to the holding cell.

Yes. Got to go back. And you can buy this guy. You can buy Harris as the butcher. And it makes sense. Like the story that he's telling at this point, he's, he looks like, yeah, he looks like the evil camp leader. He's, his lies all seem to be reinforcing, um, he's, his lies all seem to be reinforcing, um,

something that's very believable that he would be pretending to not be the leader but the file clerk right anyway we go back to the holding cell kira tells him that they now know all of his secrets and she's going to put him in front of a war crimes tribunal and uh he just starts getting very animated in the scene he says there wasn't a war he insults her by saying the butjorns didn't even fight they just rolled over the passive and she's defensive saying that We were a peaceful people before the Kardashians came. And he keeps poking and triggering her with all of these insulting descriptions about the horrors of this camp and what happened to the dead people. This is where I use the word crescendo.

It was almost musical, his very horrific description of what was going on in this camp. And he's bragging about it. He's bragging to her. He's trying to egg her on. And in the end, he says, you know what? I've already won, basically. Because Kira says, well, they're going to sentence you to death. And he says, well, let them because they can kill me or torture me.

It doesn't matter because you've already lost. You can't undo what I've accomplished. It's upsetting even now. It's upsetting to hear all that. Is this the napkin scene maybe? This was the napkin scene, I think. Yeah. Yeah.

when he i think he uh extraordinary choice okay armin now tell us what did jim tell you oh he's not yet go through the whole thing and he's not going to tell us there's the right time i think there's something yeah he's got something i'll tell you i will also say that one of the things that jim did that uh again hadn't seen this before maybe i have and i just didn't recognize it that every time we got to the holding cell, there was always a large shot. We could see him from head to toe. And then as the scene progressed, it would come in closer and closer. For Kira, it was almost what you see now, it was T-shot. And it was almost always that. So we were always seeing what was happening behind her eyes, which was the right thing to do. But gradually, we would

come in on Marissa closer and closer and closer, which again, The camera movement was following what we, the audience are doing as well, trying to suss out, getting closer and closer, trying to figure out what's true, what's not true, just as Kira is trying to do. Although she has a prejudice which we don't have. Perhaps we do. Perhaps we want Kira to be right, because she is, after all, somebody we're familiar with. But we are trying to suss out what the truth is, perhaps like Cisco rather than Kira. And I like what you were mentioning, Armand, about the camera sizes and the head to toe and all that. Even at the very end,

we've gotten in real tight in this dramatic description that he talks about being cleansed by the blood of Bajorans. Like, it's a horror movie, he's describing. Yeah. And then she, Kira, leaves,

and he goes back to a wide shot as she leaves, head to toe, but then he pushes the camera in for, what are you going to do now, withholding. my medicine, like she can't get away. Even when she's leaving the room and the shot goes back to the wide shot, it still rushes back to him. He's still got this power and this energy that Jim captures beautifully with the camera. Yeah, good job, Jim Conway. Yeah, no kidding. Now, I won't

tell you my secret, but I will say something else that certainly, and you've already touched upon it once, but I found it fascinating and it has something to do with my secret. no he's playing with us okay all right you know I was the comic Machiavel on his station

usually all of us I think can agree when you're acting with another person on camera the tendency is to keep your eyes focused on that person because that's where all life comes from comes from the other person

you are watching their every movement to help your performance that's what you do you you rarely look away you rarely look away because that's that's your support system is the other person yeah all through this episode he is constantly looking away he's talking to her he looks away looks over there he looks over here you know he's constantly looking away which is psychological in the sense that uh not until you finish the episode do you realize that he's dealing with semi-truths and half-truths and lies. And so he doesn't want to look directly in the eye because he doesn't want to get caught.

Well, we don't know that watching the episode. All we know is he's constantly doing that. When I saw it for the second viewing in this week, I realized that's really a great choice. And something that Jim told me also plays into that choice as well. Part of your secret. Also, yeah, the secret. The secret, I know.

We're dying to know. It worked on two levels during, you know, while we don't know, it comes off as incredibly dismissive. He doesn't even have to look at me. Yeah. That's right. You know, and then when we know it works on that level, so it's just, it is, it's masterful. Yeah.

And, of course, going back to Nana, while all of that is happening, we are watching her eyes. We are watching her be affected immensely by what he's saying. And she is reevaluating her own opinions. It is really wonderful reaction shots in it. Yeah. And that's no secret. That's no secret. We go to the security office where Odo brings a drink in for Kira.

She is sitting at his desk. And Nanai, you're sitting, it's like you were, your body, was interpreting the emotional state of your character at this point. You're sitting back physically and emotionally exhausted in this chair having been

through now a few scenes, a few interrogations with him. I thought it was a great choice physically the way you were exhausted and putting yourself in the scene. Beautiful. And again, that's something that I remember daring to do. Like in some scenes where I dare, to sit in a chair not crossing my legs or not being aware of arranging my body in a typically

female way that I that the awareness of my body just didn't exist it was what I was going through so I came from inside out instead of the other way which in the 90s again it was like you as an actor a woman you are always aware of what your body is doing what your face is doing, do I look okay? So that was a huge freedom and a, like, I felt daring doing those things. Yeah, it was a great choice. And it said so much about where she was at emotionally, the way you were sitting. I love that Oda brings in this drink from Quark's private stock, by the way.

It's Maralcian seavale. It's blue. It's the blue stuff, yeah. Seavale. I love that. Sea veil. You should make a cocktail called the Seavale. sea veil.

Yeah. Yeah. She needs a drink. Oda brings her the drink. She admits how much she hates him. Yeah. She hates this man. And Oda says, you need to take a break.

You need to go lie down. She doesn't want to lie down. And Odo kind of casually says, well, just, you know, don't tell him any more about your personal history. And then she admits, why, I didn't. I didn't say anything about myself. And Odo's like, wait, I don't understand how he knew that you were a fighter with a chakar if you didn't.

tell him. It doesn't make sense. And she leaves to go talk with the prisoners some more. And Odo calls the computer at the end of the scene and asks the computer for any off-station requests about Kira's personnel files. So we know that Odo's onto some part of this mystery. He's got some ideas here. I do like the fact that the writers included this scene because we just come from this crazy scene where, you know, he is just going at Kira. that, you know, he bathed in the blood of the for Jorans and he, you know, this and that. And so this scene, even though we're watching Kira take a little bit of respite and drinking that drink, as the audience, we're also like, we need a little break too.

You know, we're all sitting back because, again, it's a great scene because now you're having a little bit of a professional conversation between two co-workers, sort of like, okay, this is the crap I'm dealing with at work right now, you know, and it's needed because it was so intense the prior scene that you have to have these scenes of that are calmer that aren't about someone about to die or someone about to do something so i love this scene and i don't know if it starts here i think it does the lighting turned darker in otto's office really all the scenes that follow it seemed to me now maybe my computer screen but um it just seemed like it became film noir is wrong but it became they became darker scenes in odo's office wow and the and the light

just was darker than i ever remember it interesting you had marvin it was in the dark but they were darker scenes you had Marvin Marvin was your guide the first two seasons yeah yeah also before we move on while nan slumped in the chair again we can see through the back windows of the of the just some background people going by looking in briefly but mostly on their way doing their own business life goes on it's having a life-changing moment and they're blithely window shop yeah yeah yeah well we go back in the holding cell akira comes back in clearly odo's a question about you know were you telling him about yourself landed for her because she comes back in and the first thing she says is, how did you know that I was with the Shakar? And Harris Hewelen's eyes start darting

around a bit. He's caught here. He tries to avoid, he tries to change the subject immediately. He tries to avoid answering the question. And then he ultimately says, well, it was just that brilliant filing system. I had your name in those files because we were tracking, yeah, from Maritza. But she doesn't really believe it. He tries to make up some story like, well, I read these reports, because they reassured me that I was doing a good job. If you guys were, you know, if the resistance was fighting this hard, then that just made me realize that I was doing such a good job. So he had an answer for her, but you could see that he was,

I felt like he was busted a little bit in that scene, which was great. It was this, his story is starting to crack and Keir is starting to take control here. And this scene ends with him basically saying, well, you've been interrogating me, asking me questions. I have some questions for you. And she doesn't avoid it. She thinks about it for a minute, turns around, sits down in the chair,

and we know that there's going to be questions for her that he's got. So, yeah. Yeah. Do you remember any of that scene? Or I don't know if this is all a blur for you of these scenes. No, it's weirdly, there are things that are like it happened yesterday. some aren't some shows i don't remember filming at all but i definitely do and i remember and it struck me how powerful compassion and curiosity is because my groundedness is kira changes

and i start as you say the the balance of the power shifts and it's because she's she She's taken the lens off of being certain, of the heuristics of who he is. And once she starts to question herself and him, it's, she's, now she's powerful. Yeah. Where she had none. She had none. And I felt like I noticed with your performance, I noticed that you were heuristics, the word you used, there, she was very reactive initial, like, you know, she went right to that, that racism,

that revenge, that vengeance, all of that. But as she starts sort of reflecting on what's driving her, she starts becoming less defensive. And it becomes, there was just an authenticity to this, this whole arc and the way that you played it that I thought was really wonderful. I loved, I loved that, that Kira was. reflecting on her part of this, you know, not just being defensive or attacking going after him, but she really wanted to know the truth. Yeah, it's such, it's so wonderfully written that it's such, it's such a journey about, you know, we're the only things humans that can think about thinking and adding critical

thought to the shortcuts we take in our lives. in our thinking and it's really it's it's an examination of that yeah of applying critical thought and saying wait a minute i may not be right wait a minute i can't be certain about this what do i really know i think it's you know it just came to mind uh i don't know if you guys remember i think it was in south africa after apartheid had collapsed they had these truth and reconciliation hearings, and they weren't about convicting anybody. They weren't about saying, we're going to put the bad guys in jail. It was about literally what they were called, truth and reconciliation. It was about both sides being able to come out and give their

experience and for both sides of that experience to be heard and reconcile on some level. And I love in this scene at the very end, Maritzis says, I've got questions for you, Kira, kind of in a truth and reconciliation way, of both of them. And she says, I don't care about your questions. He goes, really? How can you be sure? Or are you just afraid to hear them? And that was a great, that made me think of this truth and reconciliation thing,

because if you're afraid to listen to both sides of an experience, is ever going to come together. There's just going to be stuck in their own side of the story and keep repeating the same cycle of hate and vengeance and all of that. But when you can come together with with courage, which I felt Kira was doing, she was able to look at herself and go, let me look at my biases. Let me look at my assumptions. And yeah, it was great. There's a Mark Nipo quote that I'm not going to get quite right, but it certainly applies to this moment in in the show that to listen is to lean in softly with the ability to be changed by what you hear.

And that's what I see where Kira is. It's like she's listening and now she may be changed by what she hears. And this is even before she knows the secret, right? She doesn't know that he's, you know, his intention we learned later on is to try to bring some truth for the Cardassian side and for everyone to have some healing. We don't know that yet. Kira doesn't know that yet, but she's instinctually kind of going, yeah, we've got to have some truth here.

Ask me your questions. Let's really talk. Let's really be honest with each other. So next up is a very, very important scene as far as the Delta Flyers is concerned because It is the one scene where we have our beloved armin and the only scene with our beloved armin, with his only two lines, it's on the promenade, we're outside of Odo's office. And interestingly enough, in this, you know, and I'm looking at the script here, it says a bunch of pejorans dressed in labor camp garb are keeping a vigil outside Odo's office.

I did not get that. I did not realize that. They're wearing as if they're wearing cosplay in a way. Like this is the stuff we wore when we were in prison to sort of protest the fact that we were in. I had no clue that that was what it was. They just look like refugees to me. That's what I got. I didn't know it was labor camp.

But the labor camp has long been liberated. It's not like this happened yesterday. But then they were doing it as a protest saying like, look, this is what we wore. This is what they, we look horrible and we were grimy. And we're protesting, you know, to show that we were mistreated is what I, is what I'm getting from this description from the script. Anyway, Quark says, who are they? Odo says,

Survivors of Gallotep. They arrived early this morning and I suppose they're waiting for justice. And Quark says Galatep, imagine living through that hell hole, the pain, the sorrow. Do you think they like to gamble? Do you think they like to gamble? And that was it. Armand, please tell us what your memories are of this scene. Yes.

My memories are, I don't remember anything about it at all. It's a total blank. I said there are episodes that she doesn't remember. This is one, the filming of that shot, totally gone from my memory. I can only say, having watched it now twice this week, I went, not bad, a little bit less is more, as I'm now learning to say. And I did a little bit less, and I thought the joke landed because I did less. But I had no memory of shooting the scene.

I remember being affected by the episode when I read it and when I saw it. 20 plus years ago, but I have no memory of shooting this scene. Well, your timing was impeccable. Both you and Renee, I, you know, as you started this brief scene, the reverence and the seriousness with which you both seem to be taking in these refugees was the perfect setup, the timing for. Well, if I can get very serious, perhaps too serious, yes. A great deal of my family was wiped out by the Holocaust. So I had, I'm quite sure, though I don't remember shooting this,

I'm quite sure that I knew what the reference was. And I was in that space thinking about that. So not so much the joke, but the lead-up to the joke, how horrible it was. I think that's coming from a familiar. old place deep inside yeah yeah this must have been a very difficult episode for you to read most definitely when that script came out just thinking about the family the relations that you lost during that time was just it's horrifying i wasn't born yet so it's just family history it's history

these are great uncles great aunts these are people that are part of your family uncles not great uncles uncles uncles yes uh uh yeah uh the family of those families of those people, all of them wiped out it during the war. So, yes, when I keep saying racial prejudice, that's where I'm coming. Yeah. Yeah, Star Trek has taken on, I think, Holocaust metaphors a number of times. And I will say that this is one of the best I've seen. I agree. Nana, I think you did a phenomenal job of very... Of learning, as we've talked about just before, of learning, looking at her own prejudices,

at her own thoughts, at her own perceptions of how things should be and must be in realizing, wait, I need to reevalue those things. It's really, it's not so much what you say. It's those reaction shots. It's those phenomenal reaction shots. and the journey of those reaction shots that is masterful. Well, we go from Armin's amazing punchline, do you think they gamble, into the infirmary,

with another long shot of Odo heading into the infirmary, looking for Bashir, asks him to look into Amin Maritz's medical records that he did track a request from Maritzha, to about cure his file and he wants to see marissa's medical history and this was a bump a logic bump for me i'll be honest because i don't know why odo would want medical his i mean it becomes the answer but it feels very convenient that he he's like oh yes this guy wanted information so it must be in there must be something in his medical files that will open up this case just seemed a little easy it seemed a little easy whereas i feel like if what have he just said every any file that you

have on on on him instead of specifically medical would that have well it feels like otto going to search up bashear based on what he knows so far is already a leap for me i think it would have been better if bashear had come into otto's office handing him something else yeah and odo happens to mention you know i found out that this guy maritza um you know was looking into Kira's personnel records and it doesn't make any sense and then maybe Bashir being the doctor could say let me look into his medical file

maybe there's something I can it just seemed wrong this is my only small criticism I was like I don't buy this I don't buy Odo he's yeah it's too good he's going right for the answer and he wouldn't know that but anyway

it's a 44 minute show exactly we gotta get that that's what he solved it Bashir comes into his office. That really would have done it. That would have been better and made Bashir smart. Like, this is my specialty. Let me look at his medical. Maybe there's something there that could help you.

We needed you back there, Robbie. I would have loved it. So they skipped one layer of onion, Robbie. That was it, okay, for you, right? They did. All right. I'm done. That's my only criticism of the whole episode.

Okay. Fine. We go to the security office. Duccott is talking to Odo. On the monitor. So, yes, Duccott was talking to Cisco earlier. Now he's talking to Odo. And Duccott talks about playing games.

He misses these games with Odo. And Odo's like, wait a minute. We only played one game ever. And you cheated. So don't oversell this. I like that little detail about their relationship. Can you picture Odo playing a game? No.

No. No. Not at all. I can't picture Odo even. Not at all. He would say no to any request to play a game. People are like not interested. But the idea that Odo puts out that you can't trust Ducott, that he's a liar, a cheater,

then informs the rest of the scene when Duccott says, hey, I'm telling you the truth, believe me. Oda's already established. No, I can't trust you. You're a cheater. Right. So it was a detail that helped the scene, I thought, in a nice way. Yeah. But Odo kind of turns the tables here.

a little bit and uh because ducotte is saying you know i assure you gulda dark heel is dead lots of people viewed his body and uh odo does insist he needs these files like if you just give me the files um maybe there's something that can prove that you're not lying to me and uh so ducat agrees i'll give you limited access yeah not full just limited access but limited access go to the holding cell next kira admits to uh marissa that she killed a lot of cardassians and he says how many and she says something like i don't remember actually so he's kind of catching her in behavior that is just as morally questionable as his supposed behavior in a way you know she wait she can't remember how many people she killed yeah she's i didn't keep count and maritz is like oh i think you did so right

there that dialogue. Yeah. It is the chronic dilemma for the character of Kira that I always found delicious. She's either a freedom fighter or if she's a terrorist. It depends on which point of view you take. Yeah. And that's the whole argument in this scene is he's saying, she says, I was fighting for my people's existence. And he says, so was I. Yeah. We needed the resources. I, like, is that a reason to murder people? Mm-hmm. Because, you, You say you're fighting for your people's existence. It's a great argument. It's a great moral dilemma, and they're both kind of caught.

He points out we're both crossing it right now in the Middle East. Yes. No, most definitely. Yes. And those lines when Curis says, nothing justifies genocide. And Maritsa answers, what you call genocide, I call a day's work. It was like, oh, the writing here was just so impactful. Yeah.

And if he calls his murders a day's work, then what does that make? her murders that was just her job just a day's work so they're both kind of that lovely gray that that deep space nine did so well so little was black and white and clear that's right yeah you see in the scene that she's questioning her own actions that she's she's thrown by his what he's pointing out yeah and that's when otto comes in and he says he's got uh information on whoever this man is um he just says i may i have a word with you it's something important's happening yeah something important's happening it's weird because it says security office and then they were in the commander's office so oh no it was it was it was a hail he hailed her is that right from the security office saying

like hey dr prashear and i have done some checking i don't know why if the man in that cell wanted to be caught and then the next scene is in in cisco's office now yeah yeah so so odo's figured out that that this man whoever their prisoner is is that he's had a plan to get caught by design. They go into Sisko's office and they show Kira the death certificate of Goldar Heel. And she says she thinks it's a fake. Forged. It's forged.

It's forged. They must be lying. Odo says that Goldar Heel wasn't even at the camp when the Kallinora outbreak happened. And again, she's like, do you really trust these guys? Like they're faking, you know, she thinks they're faking everything. and Otis adds to it he says he put all his affairs in order he left money for his his housekeeper and he specifically picked this freighter that was going to bring him here yeah and uh and kira still wants him to be a horrible person she wants she's she's she's like he's admitted at all

just go ask him he'll tell you that he's the bad guy and that's when Bashir comes in with the news that he had some kind of cosmetic alterations. He was taking medication, plasticine medication or something that would help his cosmetic surgery that he had. It looked like Goldarheels. So there you go. A lot of the story gets spilled here and now we're finally,

the audience is kind of caught up to what's really happened. And this scene of Harris's, no matter how many times I watch it he takes me right to tears he is just heartbreaking he's so desperately wants to make things right

and he's tried so hard to make things right every angle he's tried yeah and it's collapsing he feels that that effort is collapsing and yeah Kira comes in she's very sympathetic with him now that she knows, she gets it.

Just talking about this scene is bringing me to tears right now. He's hearing a cheer, hearing to not talk about how it brings her to tears is bringing me to tears right now. It's such a moving scene. She tells him he knows that she knows that he changed his appearance to look like Golder Heel. He keeps wanting her to leave. Like now that his plan's falling apart, he's like calling for the guard, get her out of here.

He's panicking. Falling for the guard is the topping, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the cherry on top of his been looking away all the time he doesn't look at it at all when he's calling for the guard it now that he's been found out this the the reason why he's been looking away all this time seems to me to come to fruition there yeah i want to see her i don't you know take her away i get her out of my presence yeah all of that seems to have been leading to that moment for me yeah it's beautiful and he as he's trying to avoid eye contact. He starts trying to describe these horrors again, trying to,

you know, bring her back into his plan. And as he's describing the murders as they were leaving, they just kept murder, murdering more people. He kind of transitions to who he really is in the real experience he had. The Marizzo was a coward, but he cried. He covered his ears. He couldn't bear to hear the screams of death. And then he, our prisoners, earth starts crying he crumbles he breaks and she kira opens the cell she turns off the force field she says you're not responsible for this and he begs to be punished he says you know i want to be punished for this cardassia needs to face with truth and he's begging her he says my death is necessary but her answer is no it's not it's not necessary it's having another good person i love

this moment where she says it. Enough good people have already died. I won't help you another. Nana, in filming the scene, did he nail it on the first take? Or how many, was it multiple takes on this one? Do you recall? I think what I recall, there were multiple takes for all his stuff. And he was doing very different things.

But I think this one was pretty, from what I remember, and I could be wrong about this. I remember this one being just straight through. Now I will reveal the onion. Yes. Oh, yes. Please give us the onion. Now we get to know. The secret.

What is it? Because of what you just said. You said, I remember multiple takes, but I think this one was the take. Now, we don't know this. I don't know the sequence of how you did the scenes, whether you did them one after another or were interspersed. We don't know that. Now, this is what Jim said.

So again, in reference to the onion, Take it with a grain of salt. This is what he remembers. It's Rashomon. This is what he remembers. It may not be what Napa remembers or what even Harris remembers. But Jim said, which I certainly understood, was the Kardashian Maker was a real problem for Harris. And that the amount of time he had to spend in it affected his memory in the sense that Jim remembered.

distinctly, this is what he told me, that Harris had a real problem remembering lines. And that he, Jim Conway, had to feed Harris lines on multiple occasions. So when Nana says there may have been many takes, yes, there may have been many takes where Harris was forgetting the lines, understandable, I certainly get it, for all the makeup that he had to wear. Having heard that from Jim, and then I watched the episode a second time this week, and I went, and yet, even by being told the lines, he still gave that brilliant performance, yeah. Which only makes that performance even more phenomenal in my imagination. Yeah, and I do remember going to Jim, because, you know, it was, it was an important

episode for me. And I went, is, is it going to cut together? And he said, I think it's, I think it's going to cut together. Oh, wow. Yeah. And because he was seeing, you know, objectively his performance. And you're right, it makes it even more impressive. But I, from, but my impression is that last scene wasn't cut up. That last scene was, he went, he got through it. But don't forget, that's after eight days

of, you know, getting used to the whole thing. Yeah. That makeup. Yeah. I mean, I was Cardassian once, and I remember at the end of about 14 hours, I was like,

I can't, and I started ripping it off. I can't do it. I can't do it. I can't do it. yeah so you know try it for seven years yeah exactly i don't know how you did it i don't know yeah you you and rene in particular oh god how you did it yeah well harris is such an amazing talented actor that even if he was struggling with lines he was right there he was there still present and maybe maybe don't know and maybe extra on my part maybe the looking away uh although it seemed to be

cutting together and and but maybe the looking away was at times just looking for judy brown right judy brown was our script coordinator and if you went up and you couldn't remember your line you turned to judy and say what's my line oh it's possible that that might have been part that's why i said earlier the looking away is part of the might be part of the secret well you know there's something as actors we all know that if you go up it can do one of two things you can go oh and now the whole scene is blown or you go yep that's what's happening to me and i'm still back here and i'm still back here and i'm still back here and i'm sure that's what he did that's what he did that's what he did it just it didn't it didn't take him off somewhere else into the land of blame

you know of self-blame or regret it just he's it was like yeah and we're going to stay here until it's, until it's done, which is being a pro. Well, speaking of being done, we have one last scene. Oh, yeah. This is in the promenade. Odo is following Kira, who's escorting Maritsa out. He's going to leave the station and she's walking him out. He says there's no reason for him to go back.

To the military academy to teach. Is that right? Yeah. Kira says, you're an honor. man, Cardassian. Cardassian needs people like you, honorable people like you. When suddenly the drunk from the drunk tank runs up from behind and stabs him in the back. Kira drops down to his side and asks why he's not Galdar heel. The drunk says he's a Cardassian. That's enough reason to kill him. And she says, no, it's not. So clearly she has learned something from this experience. Beautiful

crane shot pulling out um i did i forgot this was my second problem the one stabbing in the back killing him seemed i don't know like like you should have been more like a like a um uh u.s prison shiving where it was multiple stabs maybe is what you're thinking maybe a more violent stabbing to kill him if that's the story we're telling which it felt like that's yeah the story he's a single yeah the single stab seemed more like tis but a flesh wound kind of a thing you know like just yeah a little bit, a little bit. Okay. Well, then, you know, if it was filmed now in the Game of Thrones era, it would have been a, it would have been a slit of the throat. Slow motion. But, and blood coming out. Forget Game of Thrones. Let's go back way further back. Sure. It's analogous to the stabbing

of Caesar. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. It's just one, it's one stab. I'm agreeing with you, there should probably be more stabs. But, but for me, it's the stabbing of Caesar. Get rid of the tyrant. Get of the time. Yeah. And you know what I thought? I thought, because it struck me, but I always thought this, this man wants to go and he's going to go, even if it's one stab, he's out of here. Yeah. Yeah. He wanted to go, definitely. Yeah, he did. And there's that one line, Robbie, where Maritsa does say, he says, before you get stabbed, he says, if they believe that I was Galdarheel, then my trial might have helped bring about a new Cardassia. And now you've told them that I was just a file clerk so in his whole mind his whole mission was he was going to be a martyr he was

going to show he was going to change his own country's viewpoints of who they were as a as a species you know yeah which is huge yeah yeah well there you have it do it what an episode moral for this episode. What is your moral or lesson? My moral, my takeaway from this episode was that revenge is blind to the truth. Okay. That when you're looking for revenge, you're blind to the truth. And Kira wasn't. She started that way a bit. She wanted, she even said to Dax, I want him to be a horrible person. Yeah. I want the satisfaction. That's it. Revenge is blinded the truth. Mine is broader.

I'm going to go a little broader. I'm going to say you cannot and should not judge a book by its cover. That's mine. Armin, do you have a theme or moral? Yeah. I think it says that all of us have some sort of racial hatred and vengeance towards other cultural groups. But one must explore, investigate one's prejudices. and come and understand them.

And if you're very lucky, come to forgiveness. Yeah, because guess what? Prejudices come from ignorance, from not knowing all the details about the other group. You just know a few things that you heard from somebody. And this is what Kira says to the stabber at the end was innocent. You know, you didn't know. But, of course, his prejudices wouldn't allow him because he hadn't heard that.

He didn't know. Yeah, he didn't care. Yeah. And for me, I would say that this episode points out the fact that the way our brains are set up, it's set for heuristics. It's set for shortcuts. We have the ability to apply critical thinking. And we must take it. And when we are certain and when we lose curiosity, we lose the truth. Well said. Very well said. Well said. Okay. So our theme from a poll by our majors, captains, admirals, and prophets is submitted by Elizabeth Bonnus.

And their theme, the winning theme, was ending a cycle of violence requires truth and reconciliation. Yeah. And it's all things we talked about. And forgiveness. There you go. Absolutely. Thank you, everyone for tuning in to this episode, and thank you so much to Nana Visitor for joining us on this recap and discussion of duet. And guess what, everyone who is a Patreon supporter, Nanah is joining us for bonus materials. We're so happy to have her there. So for the rest of you, thank you again for joining us for duet and tune in next time when we will be reviewing and discussing the episode in the hands of profits. And for the rest of you, stay tuned. for your bonus material.