The Delta Flyers - Emanations

Episode Date: June 22, 2020

The Delta Flyers is a weekly Star Trek: Voyager rewatch and recap podcast hosted by Garrett Wang and Robert Duncan McNeill. Each week Garrett and Robert will rewatch an episode of Voyager starting at the very beginning. This week’s episode is Emanations. Garrett and Robbie recap and discuss the episode, and share their insight as series regulars.We want to thank everyone who makes this podcast possible, starting with our Executive producers Megan Elise, and Rebecca Jayne, and our Post Producer Jessey Miller.Additionally we could not make this podcast available without our Co- Executive Producers Ann Marie Segal, Philipp Havrilla, Jason M Okun, Kelton Rochelle, Stephanie Baker, Stephen Smith, Sarah A Gubbins, John Tufarella, Brian Barrow, Chris Knapp, Daniel Adam, Eve Mercer, James Hildebrand, Matthew Gravens, Mary Jac Greer, Marie Burgoyne, Michelle Zamanian.And our Producers  Col Ord, Aithne Loeblich, AJ Provance, Ann Harding, Barbara Beck, Breana Harris, Captain Nancy Stout, Catherine Goods, Charity Ponton, Chloe E, Chris Tribuzio, Claire Deans, Craig Sweaton, Crystal Komenda, Dave Grad, Deborah Schander, Father Andrew Kinstetter, Gay Kleven-Lundstrom, Gregory Kinstetter, Heidi McLellan, James Amey, James Cooper, Captain Jeremiah Brown, Josh Johnson, Karel Hartlieb, Katherine Hedrick, Katie Johnson, Katherine Puterbaugh, Kelley Smelser, Laura Swanson, Liz Scott, Maggie, Mary O'Neal, Matthew Cutler, Mike Schaible, Máia W, Nathanial Moon, Nevyn Cross, Rich Gross, Richard Banaski, Ryan, Steph Dawe Holland, Terence Thang, Thomas Melfi, Utopia Science Fiction Magazine, Warren Stine, York Lee. Thank you for your support!Our Sponsors:* Check out Mint Mobile: https://mintmobile.com/TDFSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-delta-flyers/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Hey guys. Welcome again to the Delta Flyers. We are a weekly podcast that discusses episodes of Star Trek Voyager in chronological order. Your two hosts along this podcast journey are myself, Garrett Wong, aka Ensign Harry Kim, and Robert Duncan McNeil, who played Lieutenant Tom Parris. If you are interested in either an extended version of this podcast, or the extended video version of this podcast, both of which include added bonus segments. Check out our Patreon page at patreon.com forward slash the Delta Flyers and sign up and become a patron. Hello, Robbie. Hi, Garrett. How are you? Nice to be back.

I'm back. And for those of the, everyone who's watching, you can see my scar from my operation that I had in May. It's so funny. You just pointed that out. I've seen you since your operation. And I don't even notice that unless you literally pointed out. And I'm like, oh, yeah.

Really? It's so funny. Yeah. Well, the cool thing is the surgeon actually did the incision along the lines of my natural creases. When you get older, you get those crease lines in your neck. that's a good thing. I'm glad he did that because if he kind of went straight across and not at a curve at an angle,

it'd be more noticeable, probably. It's amazing what they can do with surgeries these days. Like I tore my ACL eight years ago. And I can't see any scars from that. I mean, it was definitely a tough recovery from the ACL replacement that I had. And it took me about a month before I was really moving, even semi-normal.

But now it feels totally normal. I never notice it. And the incisions around my knee are like, I can't even find them half the time. Wow. It's amazing. Okay. And for those of you listening that don't know what happened,

I had to have spinal surgery. My disc between the C5 and C6 vertebrae was completely bulging. And I found that out when I had to go get an animal. MRI after I had a big fall up in Calgary at the Calgary Zoo at night time. They have an event called nightlights, and I slipped on the ice. So I had some concussion type of symptoms, and I really wanted to see what was going on. And once I had the MRI, the neurologist showed me, oh, my gosh, you need to get this fixed. This thing is, this disc is so enlarged that it's pushing against the spinal fluid, blocking a spinal fluid, pushing against the spine.

So this is something that's affecting your mobility. I was having mobility issues. My hands were completely numb. So this was a surgery that had to happen. Yeah. Then it got postponed because of COVID-19. Then they had a surgery said, oh, gosh, this guy really needs it badly. So certain surgeries are allowed during COVID-19 time if they're vital.

And so they deemed my surgery a vital surgery. So I had it done on May 7th. Didn't you tell me Jerry Ryan had the same kind of surgery or something? Yeah, Jerry Ryan had the same surgery. I just saw her on the cruise ship, Star Trek Cruise, and she has the same scar right in the front. They went in through the front to deal with the back. So I guess they kind of moved the trachea over.

Yeah, hers was done, I think, back in January maybe when she had hers done. And it's funny because I actually was, I was so freaked out that I called, I called her the night before my surgery. And I was just like, hi, Jerry, it's me. I need to talk to you. She's like, what? I go, just talk to me about, you know, how long was it after the surgery that you were able to walk around and this and that?

And so I just got more details and just had a little a pep talk from her, as well as watching that video, which you guys contributed to that Megan and Aaron kind of put together of all the well wishes before going into surgery. That was wonderful. You were on there. Bob Picardo was on there. That was funny because he was talking about how he was actually going to perform the surgery in the videos. He said, I'm on my way to the, I'm on my way to the hardware store to pick up my necessary tools for this surgery. I go great. Kenneth Mitchell from Discovery did a little little clip on that video, which it was great. He actually said, he goes,

I find some weird enjoyment in the fact that you will actually be feeling worse than I do right now. So that, you know, was another thing that made me laugh and kind of lighten it up. But yeah, that conversation with Jerry really, really helped. All right.

So this week's episode, Eminations is the name of the episode. So for those of you who are our Patreon patrons, hold on, we're about to play a little game called What Do We Remember? And for everybody else, stay tuned as we go and watch the episode and come right back with our analysis and in-depth discussion. Hey, guys, we are back from re-watching the episode. And it was refreshing to see myself again, starring in my own episode.

Yeah, I know. You had a big story. You had a, I mean, come on. It starts with a close-up. I made notes of this as we went through, but literally, like, how many times can we start an act on Harry's face and then end the act on Harry's face and then come back on Harry's face? Everything was a close-up. Every part of it was a close-up. close up of Harry. Did you notice was, as you were watching, was there any usage of fish fish eye lens in this at all? Yes. Okay. A number of times, yeah. Because I remember. When you say fish eye lens, I think that's an exaggeration. He used, he used a wide lens. I think that

we shot on 35 millimeter film when we filmed Voyager. I don't think any TV shows shoot on anymore, but we shot in 35 millimeter film. And so the, the wide lens that David Livingston liked to use was the 14 or the 12 millimeter, which on a 35 millimeter negative is a pretty wide lens, but it's not quite a fish eye. Anyway, I think he used the 14 or the 12. So there was, there wasn't anything even more fish eye e than that lens that you're talking about? No. I recall that I was fighting him in this episode. Like, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I said, I said, listen, please, especially with that one scene when I, it just comes to me and I'm inside the alien, you know, transference facility or whatever. And I sit there and I go, why?

Because they're about to transfer me to another location. And it's just like close up on my face. And I remember David, the director, saying, listen, I'm really going to, this is so cool. I got to show you this lens. And so I looked through the camera and I was like, what? I mean, it looked like that when you look through a peephole, you know what I'm saying, of your apartment, you know, and at the people knocking at your door and they're just this totally distorted morp. It looked like it was even a wider lens than normal.

And I remember fighting him and saying, I think everybody, everybody fought him. He loved those wide lenses, especially the women really did not find it flattering at all. Yeah. It's not a, it's not necessarily a flattering lens, but it's, it can be a, an effective lens just in terms of feeling a bit like you're in a crazy house like a you know a fun house or a weird like reality is is kind of closing in on you in a weird way i i agree i agree 100% that it does add that uh that element of sort of you know that art house film sort of hey let's get this feeling whatever but i think you can evoke that without having to use some crazy lens that distorts the...

Well, he used it all the time. David Livingston used it all the time. He was the only director that used it so, so much. And Marvin Rush, our director of photography, really hated it. Not because, and Marvin didn't hate it necessarily because of the image on the film, the wide. Marvin, it frustrated Marvin because when you use a wide lens like that, all of your lights that you're lighting the actors with have to be further away.

because now you're seeing a lot more of the set, right? So you can't have lights on stands, you know, back right here and right here. They've got to go way out here to get outside, outside. And the lights that are hung up above, sometimes you see the ceiling so you can't use overhead lights. And particularly for women, because that wide lens takes all of that real estate away from Marvin. he hated that lens because he couldn't make the actors look as cinematic or beautiful because you just don't have anywhere to light from. Interesting. Okay, so there in lies the dispute

between Marvin Rush and David Livingston. It's not about the effect the lens has story-wise or anything like that. It's literally like, please don't use this all the time because now I can never light anybody. And David loved to use it all the time. So, you know, yeah, and that tension kept going and it built. Oh, yeah. Every year it built and built and built because David kept, you know, getting more episodes

to direct. And so just everyone knows, David Livingston was the supervising producer on the show. So, you know, his job wasn't the, as, you know, his first job was a supervising producer. Second job was he got a shot at directing episodes. And he did turn in a pretty damn good product. But over the years, that tension kept building and building and building. And I remember pulling Marvin rush aside one day. I was just walking towards a set. And it was after a particularly harsh,

you know, a day where there was a lot of, you know, words being spoken by Marvin towards David. And David really was very, he would sort of take the submissive role. He would almost be like, okay, yeah, sure. All right. Sorry, Marvin. Sorry. Okay. It's all right. I mean, he didn't really fight as much. And it was just so difficult to watch Marvin come down so hard on David. And I stopped Marvin one day, and I was like, hey, man, just for like, just the energy on the set, just to stay away from that negativity. Like, I just, please, it's so hard for me and for everyone to watch this kind of, you know, tension going on. Is there any way you can lighten up on him? And I remember I even got a little emotional about it, right? And so Marvin was like, Marvin's like, wow,

Garrett's crying over this, you know? I mean, this was something that really affected me. Well, you have to remember that David Livingston had worked on Next Generation and Deep Space Nine and he'd been around a long time. So they knew each other for a long time. So when we started, they already had that dynamic and that history. And I'll be honest, I remember the way you described David is kind of going, I'm sorry and being submissive. I think that was a, it was an act. Because David would go, oh, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. And then he could still do, he'd ignore. ignore what someone was asking or frustrated with. He completely ignore it and do whatever he wanted.

So I think he kind of created that bullying on himself or that frustration. He brought it on himself a bit. He did. He would do that act where he would try to pacify you in the short run, right? So it was like a short-term band-aid was put on the situation. It's called not being real. It's called lying, dishonesty, faking, pretending, avoiding,

codependent, people-pleasing. There's a bunch of names for it. But it's not real. It's not real. That tension, yeah, anyway. I like David. He frustrated me too over the years. Let's move on from that.

And I just want to just, let's, there is a request just, you know, from one of the fans saying that it'd be nice if we could just give a quick synopsis of each episode before we start talking about it. Oh, yeah. Here's my synopsis. I would say that still early in their journey back to the Alva Quadron, they find, Voyager finds a sign of some elements, discover some elements they think might help them in this journey to help the warp core and help them get back. So as they go discover it, they find

a burial site. And in an emergency return back to the ship from this burial site, Ensign Harry Kim is mistakenly swapped out with the dying person. So Harry accidentally ends up in the other dimension and Voyager is left to try to find him and the journey of the episode is how does Harry come back from this other dimension can he can he live survive it and and uh it's about the afterlife and faith and death and dying it's about those issues okay that's a good synopsis um just to clarify not elements but element because they talk about 246 elements known to Federation Science, at least Harry says that at the very beginning, and that we may have found the 247th. And now, if you talk about the periodic table, we have

118, I think, elements. So it's interesting to know that in the future in our time, in Star Trek time, that we have practically doubled. Well, yeah, I would expect that if we were to, if we were to travel into other universes like Star Trek time does that we would find other elements I wonder if on like the Mars rover I wonder if anything has been discovered or if we had the ability

to see about any other elements on Mars or something like that already I wonder although that's kind of in our universe you know it's kind of in the same like we may have to go much further away to find more elements But yeah, it's an interesting little detail of science there.

I also noticed that this episode had a lot of techno babble for Janeway. This was very heavy for technology. Janeway had to go rattle off some long-ass lines. I mean, when I talk about discovering that element, then she, I say the element appears to be stable. She says a stable transuranic element inside a natural environment. I mean, there's a lot of tongue twisters going on for Janeway. I think this whole episode is to the science is very concerned.

confusing. I got to be honest, this whole episode. I like, I love, actually, the exploration of faith, the afterlife, death and dying, all those issues. I actually love that idea. I really, I had forgotten about this episode and starting to explore that. I was like, that's a cool idea, but I felt like the science, often with Star Trek, the science sort of helps me understand the theme better. Whereas in this case, case, I think the science kept distracting me was too complicated. And we'll get there later on, but like when they talk about vacuels, vacuels keep opening. I actually looked up what a vacuil is.

Vacuil is a biological term. It's a membrane-bound cavity within a cell, often containing a watery liquid or secretion, a minute cavity or vesicle in organic tissue. That's a vacuole. I didn't understand it in the episode. They kept talking about vacuels in the wrong way, in my opinion. Like, that's not a vacual. A giant energy thing is not a vacuil because we're talking about a cell membrane.

That's what a vacuum means. Anyway, I found the science confusing from the very beginning. When you heard vacuil, were you thinking vacuum cleaner? Did that come across? A little bit. I was thinking about a vacuous space. Okay. I was thinking about like vacuous space or vacuum.

But they kept saying vacuil. I'm like, is that a real thing? So I found the science confusing, generally. Because that, to me, it sounds like a hybrid of vampire and Dracula. It's vacual. It's what it is. It's a vacula. Vacula.

But that would be Scott Bacula, a vacula. So there is an interesting, I just want to point out. By the way, pause for a second. Yes. Put your hat down. Put your hat down lower. look so you got a blue jays hat right toronto that's a toronto blue jays my hat town motto is a motorcycle shop in toronto shut up shut up we both have toronto hats on right now get off my lawn what you're

are you just serious get out of town get out of town get off my god by the way robert uh i just called you robert that is so weird i've never called you robert in my entire entirety of my life okay Am I in trouble? You're not in trouble. But Get Off My Lawn is a line from 100%. That independent film that I did that you came to the screening of, the all-Asian film. And the character that spoke that line is the young actress

who played on Gilmore Girls as the friend of the lead, the Asian friend. Yeah, so Keiko, again, Againa was the actress's name in that, you know, 100% that movie. Yeah, because she was, she was, she said something like, shut the front door. Get off my lawn. Like she was saying stuff, like, get out of it. You know, like it was kind of snappy, witty banter is what it was.

And that was Keiko's very first on camera, non-theater role. And I remember because she was, you know how it is when theater actors do their first film or TV. Yeah. They're way big. You know what I'm saying? They're projecting to the back of the house so they don't realize that that camera is so close up on their face that they just have to think the thought.

They don't have to like, you know, do anything extra. And I remember Keiko definitely was big when she was filming that film 100%. But, of course, when she got on Gilmore Girls, I couldn't be more proud of her and she adjusted her level of acting output. But when we were on that alien asteroid, So you go to the, you go to the asteroid, you're going through some caves, yep, you're looking, you got the, you got the tricorders out.

Yeah, it's very Halloween-y because they've got sort of like, you know, the cotton, you know. Yeah, and I want to say, like, Chikote, Chakotay, I don't understand. He's like walking, he walks right into the, into the spider web. Yes. And then he acts surprise. He goes, what the hell is this or something? What is this? He says, what the hell is this? And I was like, why did you just walk in? to it and then act surprise. Like, it's clearly his face was up and he's kind of aware that this giant spider web is there. Why did you walk into it? And then act like, whoa.

So that made me laugh. Yes, I would like to bring up this point right now that when it comes to like cursing, you know, curse words, like if you watch Discovery, all the new, the new Trek shows, Picard. They drop the F-bomb a lot. You know, they drop, you hear the F-bomb on the newer Star Trek. So you never hear the F-bomb on Voyager or TNG or DS9. But in this, you know, episode, I think this is the first time that anyone has said hell. And Chikote said, what the hell is this? And that was the most that we were ever allowed to say when it came to Cusswords was hell. And so I don't know if that's something that ever registered with you.

Maybe damn, didn't we, I bet Janeway at some point said. Damn, you think the day word? Damn it, let's, damn it, do this or something like that. Yeah, okay, yeah, I'm sure that's probably there, but there was no, there is no S word and no F word, you know, MF, none of that, no, no, we never went down. No, not on Janeway's ship, she could not have it. Okay, so the other thing I noticed is, besides Chukotay, purposely walking into a spider web in that acting surprise.

I noticed that the whole teaser started on your face, close up, ended on your face. The other thing I remember near the end of that teaser is when you guys walk out to that in the caves to that second floor kind of part and you're looking down at all the dead bodies, I had this memory of how difficult it was always to shoot on that second floor. We didn't, we had to get a crane. Like it was very, it wasn't easy. Okay. It was much slower.

and I remember whenever directors went in there and they would say okay let's go up to the second floor I was always like oh god the second floor it's gonna take forever because it's just not easy to shoot up there that was stage 16 stage 16 yeah stage 16 yeah it was kind of it was like a balcony up above so it was hard to reach so it was odd well you know how you just mentioned

about how the teaser comes in on Harry and then it ends on Harry So when it ends on me, when it ends on Harry in the cave, my note here is that I look like a doll, like a porcelain doll. My hair is perfect. There's rosiness to my cheeks. And I'm bringing this up because later, you know, once I get sucked into the vacuole and end up in the planet, I come out of that little cocoon coffin thing. And a vacuil is the wrong word, by the way. Perfect.

Vacue was the wrong word. And I come out, we can say energy vacuole. So instead of a cell vacuil, right? So it doesn't have to be liquid. It could be an energy. So then I come out and I go, and I jump up. And by the way, that's like a postcard that someone made of me, of like that look of shock when I first come out of that little coffin, the alien coffin.

They made a postcard out of that, CBS did. And for many years, people would bring that to my autograph table and I would have to sign that. Yeah, that picture of me going, oh, but my hair is completely disheveled, okay? It's down. Either way, you're getting ahead of me, but yes, when your hair's all messed up and then later on, it's like you went. It's perfect again. Yes, I made that note.

Yes. You did make the note. I went to the salon. I said, listen, guys, I need to go to the alien's salon. That's literally what I said in my notes. It's like, yeah, I need, when did you have time to go to the alien salon? That's literally what I said. That's funny. Okay. By the way, I got to say

you disagree with the commander early on. I did. Yeah, he says we should leave these bodies alone. And you're like, you know what, Commander, I respectfully disagree with you. That's very gutsy. It was gutsy. Because it is your first contact, your first first contact. Yeah.

And first contacts, I mean, we end up having a lot of first contacts in Voyager more than most any other series probably because we're in a whole new quadrant and meeting a lot of new alien species. but first contacts are a big deal. And I thought that was handled well in this episode that you really, when you were over there, and we keep jumping back and forth, but when you eventually get over there, you really try to be respectful of, what's his name, Hatil? Hatil.

You try to be very respectful of Hatil's beliefs and yet be honest with him. And I thought that was very well handled, especially for a character who is having his first first. contact. Yeah, that is that is true. And I do I did like the fact that, oh, back to me at my insubordination of comment of like I respectfully disagree. It's interesting that Harry takes that stance, especially since it is Chocote who invites Harry to come on the away mission. So it's sort of like, hey, come to my

party and then while I'm at the party I'm like, you don't get this piece of cake. So maybe that's maybe that's why you felt that you had the permission because he'd already given you permission and encouraged you to come and maybe you thought, oh, well, I'm going to see how far I can push this to kind of express myself. Yeah. And it's, it is nice that the Chikote character really, let's see, he puts a lot of value in burial grounds and not desecrating because he gives that story about how he took a rock from

someplace and he desecrated a tomb site or something in the past. And sort of, you know, drawing upon that notion. that native cultures especially are very, they're very cognizant of where they place their dead, how they, you know, and how they, how they revere that area as sacred space, as sacred ground. Well, I think that sacred ground, you said sacred ground. I did say, I know that is, see, look at that, man,

we're in the same wavelength, we're on the same wavelength, McNeil. I think that the native sort of perspective that Chukotay brings about honoring the rituals of death and things like that and kind of being open to different kinds of rituals. I like the fact that that native perspective is sort of brought in a bit because natives do really respect their ancestors. And that's a part of the native culture that I really admire. Because in modern human culture, most of our modern human culture,

culture, there's very little recognition and honoring of our ancestors, of our grandparents, and great grandparents, and the people that came before us that made our lives possible. I think Native people really value that and integrate that into their culture. I'm going to expand upon that, what you just said, because if you think about Native cultures, Native Americans, First Nations in Canada, Where did they come from? They came across the Bering Strait from Asia. And in Asia, especially, and I know, definitely within my own Chinese culture,

that there is that definite respect of ancestors where you go to the grave site and you pray to the ancestors. So I think that sort of is more of a... That's great. Yeah. I do have to say about Chiquet, by the way. He's very respectful. But notice that he had his tricorder out. He's scanning the shit out of this place.

And then he gives everybody a lecture on no tricorders, no scanning. I'm like, wait a minute, dude. You knew they were dead five minutes ago. You've been scanning him for the whole time. Is that right? Yes, he was scanning. I thought he didn't know that they were. That they were dead?

No, not the thing. He told Janeway. He said, he's talking to Janeway. He goes, yeah, we've got however many dead here. Some have been here for a long time, some 11 days. Right. And just came in 12. Yeah.

So he's clearly scanned them. He did scan them initially, but then he felt like, well, wait a minute. This is like me taking that rock from the sacred place. So then he closes it and says, let's just like do a visual. I don't know. I found it confusing again because I'm like, wait a minute, you just scanned all this information clearly. And now you're saying, you guys, we can't scan them. Yeah.

Or maybe if it had just been as simple as, you know, maybe we should stop scanning or something. Clarification. Because to me, it was like, wait a minute, if that's what you think, you should have stopped five minutes ago before you knew they were dead like i do get what you're saying did you find the beam out to be a little bit odd with everybody doing these like these moves right before the beam out of the cave did that uh no no okay no it kind of looked like our promotional photos where we have we're pointing and we're like doing this oh that's funny yeah that's what i that's what it reminded me up so it didn't bother me okay i i found it a little confusing that the dead body

showed up on the b side and and we hadn't really seen that like i knew that we're dead body around, but it just seemed conveniently like they were standing six inches away from a dead body when this happened. Yeah. That was a little confusing. So once I end up on this alien, you know, planet, one thing that I forgot is that these were the double nostril aliens, right? They have the two sets of them.

Yeah. Very distracting. Very distracting. And I remember that was something that when I was working with the actor that played Dr. Noriah, played by Jerry Hardin, who played deep throat. in X-Files, if you guys are X-Files fans. Every scene I had, I kept staring at his second set of nostrils, and I was like, don't look at the nostrils.

Don't look at his nostrils. Look at his eyes. Look at his eyes. Like, in theory, it should be a cool idea, but it was just distracting. It is. And by the way, when they beam back in and you're not there, and there's a dead body on the floor,

you can see that actor breathing the whole time. Literally. And this happens later on, too. I hope she's not listening to this. You can totally see her breathing. Sorry about that, but yes, I did not notice that. Oh, my God. And they literally say, like, she's dead.

Yeah. Like, if they just look down, they'll see her breathing and go, oh, she's not dead. Did you see her breathing because of, was the gauze stuff moving, or her chest was moving up and oh so they it's like they should have done a visual effect or moved her a little differently or something because you know you can't say yes she's dead when the audience can literally see and by the way this happens later on when patera ultimately dies she's still moving she's breathing yes she's dead dead oh my gosh you can and Janeway says you know uh let's send her back.

That's where she belongs and all that. She's breathing again. Like, you've got it. I mean, for me, in the theater, I remember, you would turn your, you know, you die this way. Sideways, yeah. Well, yeah, kind of on your side with your back. Or if you do a, if you do, if you have to die like this,

or you're filming it, if we're filming it, we might do a visual effect where we split, we split off, you know, split off the person who's dead and freeze frame that, and then keep the other people moving. So you have a real frozen, dead body. Whereas this one, a number of times, I was like, come on, she's breathing. I'm a little shock that David Livingston,

who is Mr. Detail, did not catch that while he was watching the monitor that she was still moving. That's a little shock. Well, you know what, back in those days, now we're all used to 75-inch TVs and, you know, 4K and all this back in those days the director monitors were about we're about this big they were probably about a 10 inch black and white monitor they were not even color they were video tap from the camera right would have a little a little video camera and the director would sit by two monitors

with the direct with the director of photography Marvin rush and the director looks at these two tiny monitors in metal boxes um and they're small they're like 10 inch monitors. So you couldn't see that sort of detail. You had to trust your camera operators to tell you, hey, I saw her breathing or whatever. Yeah. I was going to say that when Janeway, when when they're in this, when they're in sick bay and Janeway is talking to the doctor, Chakotay's there and the doctor talks about the biopolymer fibers basically being this, you know, it's extreated from their skin when they're dead. So it's basically their dead bodies, right?

They're dead organic material. And then he realized, and then the doctor says, well, basically, you've been strolling through dead bodies. And the look on Chakotay's face was just awesome. Oh, yeah. He started to turn sideways. And he's like, ooh, boy. You know, because, you know, Mr.

I mean, he played it well. But for someone who doesn't want to desecrate somebody's tomb or some burial ground, he just walked right through the bodies going through that wispy, spider web stuff. What was the doctor's line again about the fiber? What did he say? The body secret. Yeah, their body excretes this upon death.

It comes out of their skin from their, yeah. Right, yeah, right at that moment when he was doing that, I had brought in a snack. So I had some crackers and a little salami. And I'm sitting there taking a bite of my snack or eating. I'm in the middle, like, and he goes, their dead bodies are secreting this polymer.

I was like, oh, thanks a lot, Bob. You just ruin my snack, my rewatch. I always have to have a rewatch snack. Another thing I want to bring up, which is interesting that happens throughout Voyager. When we see, when Patera first is in the sick bay and Janeway's talking to her. And you got to close up on Janeway.

Janeway does this thing where she does this very quick scan of the other actress of her, I mean, Janeway's eyes go up, down, left, right. Usually they just do the left, right thing, but this time they're doing up and down and left and right. And I find that there's just some actors

that on their close-up, their eyes will do that rapid scanning thing, like an REM, rapid eye movement while you're awake thing. Do you notice that at all? Like, if I'm my close-up and I'm looking at you, I'm just looking dead at you.

I don't, I don't, I do not, you know, I don't go this way, I don't go that way. I just look straight at you. You know when you did go this way and that way, when you sat up in the bed, you sat up in the bed, and you went, like that. Yeah, but that was with my head too. Yeah, you like sat, it did like this. Okay. And for those on just the audio podcast, I sat up into a fish off.

close up and imitated here it imitated my look which was the best yeah yeah but I'm just saying typically I know I've noticed that throughout the years that Janeway that Kate will do that when she's I think Kate's characterization of the captain is she's absorbing information constantly maybe that's it she's kind of leaning into every conversation like what else can I pick up from your body language from your, from your tone of voice, from the words you're saying, what else can I pick up? She's very, very kind of leaning into just absorbing every detail. Yeah, because now that I think about it, when I look, I've seen her in other projects, not Voyager, and she, that doesn't happen. So maybe that is her character choice and she's doing that, like, you know, extra

examination of what's happening. So, okay. Hatil's wife, which I don't recall the name of that character. But when she came on screen for the first time, I thought it was Chase Masterson. I don't know if you got that vibe or not. I was like... Oh, that's interesting. It does sort of, yeah. It kind of looks like Chase Masterson. Lita, the Dabo girl from DS9. And I, you know, but it wasn't. So, I did notice when you got, when you went through the, what is it call the, vacuil, the subspace vacuil, the subspace vacuil. Yeah, when you, when you, when you went there and you were basically in their, their death chamber, um, David Livingston started using a lot

of Dutch angles and we don't we didn't do that often on our show explain that to the layman a Dutch angle is when the camera instead of being a level with the horizon a Dutch angle is tilted to one side or the other like a classic old horror movie like a fun house so a Dutch angle is is making everything seem like it's tilted sideways or off off balance so David started the using those wide lenses and the Dutch angles in that alien sickbay. He was doing that a lot. Yeah. And we didn't do that often.

That's not a technique that our show used often. It also makes it feel like a horror movie. Like, I felt early on like when the doctor came in, they called for the doctor and he came in, that I felt like we were a bit in a house of horrors, like, you know, which I think is an interesting choice. I wonder if it had something to do with the pacing. I felt like the, and I know it was a big Harry Kim episode, so don't take this personally.

But I felt like the pacing was too slow all around. I think the guest stars were really slow, I think. And I wonder if that was intentional on David Livingston's part to try to make it seem suspenseful, like these long pauses and slow. Sometimes in a horror movie, you know, things happen. Yeah. There's a lot of tension and suspense.

For me, it didn't play that way. episode has just played slow and I wish that it had been paced up faster. I hear you and I remember and I don't take offense to that. I remember like when I first I have that scene where I'm sitting on that alien biobed and I'm talking to the doctor and I am speaking kind of slowly and also very my tone of voice is lower kind of too and I and I sat there thinking was that a direction that David gave me? Because why am I talking like that? I was a little, you know, taken aback by that. And then Hatil's delivery was very slow. The only one that kind of was quick was Dr. Naraya, Jerry Hardin's character. He was just like, you know, okay, we've got to examine you. We have to

analyze you. We've got to take you to the other location. And basically, you know, I am the little green man, right? I'm the alien to them, which is such a crazy concept that I am their alien, right, that I've just appeared. And now that they're going to do experimentation and possibly, you open me up to see what makes me tick kind of a thing, right? Well, I tell you, this whole section, I started getting confused as the story developed, and you realize that Patera had brain cancer, so she was dying. And then you see Hatil with his accident and the brace he's wearing. I started getting confused, like, wait a minute, are these evil people that are killing,

like they're lying to them on purpose to get rid of the weak and the sick? like that's what I thought at that point in the story like oh these doctors know this is bullshit these doctors know that this whole afterlife story is not true but they're just tricking everybody to get rid of the week and the sick that's how my that's where my head went I don't think that was the story they intended no I don't think so either because I see where you can see it that everybody believed in this that's why I'm saying that the science and some of these details to me didn't make it more interesting. It made it more confusing. Like I thought I thought that's, you know, oh, we're going down the, they're lying to everybody to get rid of the week and the sick. Oh,

no, they're not lying to everybody. So why did they need to be sick or weak? Why can't it just be simply, yeah, our afterlife is so much better than life that even, even though I'm, my life is fine, I'm ready to go. Like, that would have been a cleaner story to me rather than, oh, I've got, or maybe have one of those characters, but it just seemed like everybody's got cancer or handicaps or like, yeah. I mean, Hiteal didn't look that bad off. He had the leg brace, which honestly, when I saw him with that brace watching this episode, it just reminded me of the movie Forrest Gump when Tom Hanks' younger self when he's a kid. He had that leg, like brace on when, when, when, when Jenny yells, run, forest, run.

But I could just see him, run, Hattiel, run. I just, that came in my head. I don't know why either. So I find it interesting that this race believes that the afterlife is not a spiritual transference. It's literally you go to another plane of existence with the current body that you have. You know what I'm saying? So they don't really think about your soul or spirit.

So this is really a good episode in that it just, it makes you ask questions. But I got to say like, yeah, I got to say like honestly, and I, and I hesitate to get into a religious conversation because that's always quicksand. But yes, I think most people have a general sense if they have religion or faith or that kind of belief in an afterlife. I never hear people discussing, oh, in the afterlife, I'm not going to look like this. It's going to be a whole different. They expect to see their parents and their grandparents and their dogs. Like the perception for most people that have that kind of religious faith is that generally I'm going to kind of be myself. And I'm going to recognize the people.

I'm going to be reunited with the people that I love and care for because they've gone to that afterlife. So I don't think it's a big leap for them to say, like, yeah, you're going to be in the same body. Like, it's just, they're just explicitly saying it. Yeah, that's true. Another note I have that when Janeway talks to Patera in sick bay, Kess is in the background, out of focus, sitting there doing some work. Beep, beep. She's like pushing buttons. She has the best sitting posture of any human being I've seen.

I mean, she's just like, I don't know, I mean, it's, it was really important. Thank you for saying that. I'm going to sit up even better. I know. I see now that I sit up now you don't, now you just see my nose, my single set of nostrils. Yeah, you need to I need a slouch. Yeah, I need to slouch a little bit. So what was the, what do you get from the, you know, what's the underlying meaning? What is the message that you would say that this episode kind of gave you? Well, to me, the theme of this episode is what Janeway says at the very end. And I wrote her, her line. down what we don't know about death is far greater than what we do know and i thought to me that what we don't know about death is the subject of this episode but in a way death is a stand-in for so many things that at this point voyager doesn't know about the delta quadrant doesn't know about so what we don't know about all of this experience is far greater than what we do know i thought that was the theme. It's like being open, it's like, what is that quote, you know, ignorant people don't know what they don't know? Like, you know, people who are truly ignorant think they know everything.

They think they've got all the answers. And wise people know that they don't know what they don't know and are open to learning something. So I think, to me, that's the theme. It's like being open to things that are unexplainable. being open to what Harry went through in terms of going to another dimension where that separation is a death experience. And he had that. He went somewhere where he had to die and be reborn. In a way, that's the classic hero's journey, like Joseph Campbell's hero with a thousand faces, the hero's journey of going on an adventure, a call to adventure. That's what Harry Kim did. He got this call. He got shot over to another dimension. And he had this.

experience where he learned something and he came up with a solution but he had to die in order to be reborn it's a great hero's it's a classic hero's journey that is a great story for me the the underlying message of something that that can help better our lives also comes from that last scene where jingway speaks to kim um but more so about her saying you know take kim's all eager beaver and he's ready to get back to work now and she says take two days off right And she's like, really? No, I'm fine. She's like, no, seriously, take two days off because her message is sometimes you've got to smell the roses.

You know, sometimes you got to, you have to really let things after you've experienced them. You've got to let those things kind of resonate through you instead of just skipping over it because you don't want to get jaded. That was the message to me. It was like, get jaded, man. I mean, stay, stay, be present, be there. And it's interesting because she said sometimes you experience something that is so, it's so extraordinary that you have to do things to help yourself process it, such as she said, paint, write, take some time to write. And writing, you know, in my life, whenever I've experienced difficult times, I've been given that advice from certain friends saying, you know what, whatever you're going through right now, write it down. Because in a weird way, writing is a form of catharsis.

You know, this is this way of almost self-analyzing yourself in a way, right? They are yourself, giving yourself a form of self-therapy. And I felt like that was sort of the underlying message for me that Janeway was just like, okay, just stop, pause, reflect. It's a great respect, you know? Great lesson. Yeah, great observation, great lesson. As an actor for this scene, when I'm reading through the script of, for the first time.

And I got to that point where I'm inside the alien coffin and the script says the cenotaphs is opera is turned on and the two little alien like, you know, tubial things come into my neck. And it says, Harry Kim dies. And the way they wrote it in the script was extra bold, all caps. Harry Kim dies.

And this is the first season. And this is my first job. And this is also my feeling like, I'm the first one on the chopping, block if there is a chopping block. So I go, oh my God. So I start flipping the pages of the script. Oh, I got more lines. I got more lines. I'm alive. I'm alive. I'm still on the show. Yay. So that was a big, that was a huge deal for me. And then also I just want to talk a little bit towards as an actor, we say that as actors, whatever role that we take on, whatever scene we do,

we always draw on a little piece of our life experience to help us act in the scenes. But clearly, as an actor who is alive, I have no experience of dying, right? So therein lies the problem. So now, as a young, in my 20s, early 20s actor trying to act like I'm dying, this is my very first, you know, death scene per se, and I'm sitting here thinking like, what am I, how am I going to go through this? And I just remember lying in that coffin and just thinking, okay, if this was really it, because this is a really very forward move that Kim is making, saying, like, let me take your place

and let's just shoot me out into the asteroid. Hopefully Voyager was still there, and they're going to go ahead and find me and resuscitate me. And Hattiel goes, but it's no guarantee. And I'm like, no, it isn't a guarantee. This is a huge deal, right? Huge, yeah. And even that point on the bridge. right before Harry dies, there's that scene where Torres says to the captain,

I think we should just leave, you know. And I remember getting a little emotional going, you're going to leave, you're going to leave, no, you know, it was a little shocking to me to hear that, and I really felt that. But as to get back to the death scene, I was inside that coffin, and I kept thinking, if I'm about to literally go through this very gutsy, risky, risky, unproven method of trying to get back to Voyager what am I going to go through? Probably my first thought is like wait a minute stop it just stop it stop it I'll just live on this planet I don't want to die you know I'll just stay here right right I just stop the process so but then I was like

no no so I was doing this you know this exercise in my own head where it was just literally it was frustration that I was in this in that situation to begin with and then and then also just scared, scared to, you know, scared to the point of just like, oh my gosh, oh my gosh, hyperventilating kind of just about to lose it, that I'm about to die. And then once the tubules went in, I remember, I remember, I think David Livingston, the director yelled out, you know, and Harry's dead or something like that. And then I, and at that point, I just sort of said, okay, just release everything, all the tension that I had in me, like, and all the nerves and fear and anxiety, just release it. And...

Just let go of everything. And I just sort of use that as my representation of death. So I think I did an okay job. I'm not totally. I thought it was great, actually. I thought it was great. I thought when those things came into your neck and it was so simple and subtle and it wasn't overdone, I thought it was great. I really did.

All right. Good. Yeah. I'm happy about that. I loved, by the way, so you died and then you woke up, then you wake up, then you wake up in sickbay. Were you supposed to be naked? Yeah, because underneath those sheets, those little the shroud? The shroud, yeah. Okay. Yeah, you're supposed to be. I guess when they beam you, when you get beamed out, the shroud gets left there because, uh, yeah, that was confused. Hiteel talked about,

I'm putting on these shrouds that have been passed down through generations of my family. Yeah, five generations. And I'm like, wow, they look remarkably new for being five generations old. I didn't understand. I also thought like, well, do the shroud just like flop down in the bed when they beam them over to the ask? That's what I think happens. I guess it has to. Yeah.

So technically you were naked. Yeah. Do you notice my makeup they put on me? They made me look kind of dead a little bit. Yeah. It was a different color makeup that they put on my face too. It was good. Did you have any notes on my nakedness?

Is that when you come in? Oh, body, body makeup. I did have a note. Do you remember having to do body making? So, like, they usually put makeup on your face to make, you know, the camera and the lights. Yeah. But when you, when you don't have a shirt on, then they've got to take, because otherwise it'll look like your face has makeup and your body's, you know. Correct.

I've shades lighter. Correct. And they have to put the same color on your body. And they got to blend it. They take these sponges in cold water. Yeah. And they put it on and it's freezing. And it's a different makeup.

It's a different makeup. It's a liquid-based makeup. because the stuff on our face that they put on our face was pancake. Remember that really heavy Joe Blasco brand theatrical makeup, which was just caked on our skin, which caused me, I don't know about you, but I had so much acne throughout those seven years just from my pores being clogged up. I think you probably didn't have a lot of zits.

They didn't have that much, and I would always say, like, I don't know, less makeup, less makeup, I didn't want to like. Really? Good for you. Good for you. Yeah. But you're right. When they did the body stuff on us, it was cold, it was distracting, and it was just, but they had to do it to blend it to your face. Yeah.

The only other note is another close up on Harry to finish the episode. Every time it's a close up on Harry. Okay. So, so that's our recap. All right, guys. Thank you so much for listening in on our discussion of emanations. And tune in next week while we discuss prime factors. ...