The Delta Flyers - Explorers

Starting point is 00:00:00 Greetings, everyone. Welcome to the Delta Flyers Journey Through the Wormhole with Quark Dax and their good friends, Tom and Harry. Join us as we make our way through episodes of Star Trek Deep Space 9. Your host today are my fellow Trek actors, Arm and Shimmerman, Robert Duncan McNeil, and myself Garrett Wong, as well as we have a very special guest joining today. And that would be none other than Chase Masterson.

Starting point is 00:00:37 Yay, Hey, everybody. Thank you so much for having me. So glad you're here. It's good to see you, Chase. Good to see you. It's great to see you guys. I'm so happy to be here.

Starting point is 00:00:46 Yeah. I can't believe we finally get to the episode where your character gets introduced. I was so excited about it. Thank you. And the very first scene, too. That means a lot. Thank you so much. It's been quite a journey.

Starting point is 00:00:59 And, you know, I'm sure you guys will agree about your own track journeys. It's more than I ever imagined. Yeah. Yes. Absolutely. Yeah. Chase, in the very beginning before we started recording, we talked a little bit about things that are happening in your life right now.

Starting point is 00:01:16 There's a Patreon account or a Patreon something that's happening. Can you explain to us what's going on? Thank you so much. As most of you know, I founded a nonprofit organization in 2013, and I run it as a volunteer CEO, we're working nationwide for youth mental health, impacting the lives of over 500,000 children, teens, parents, and instructors. And I am very excited to say we are now making these tools available at home. Our program was created in partnership with YMCA of the USA, which is the largest national, international youth organization in the world. So it's really exciting that we have this

Starting point is 00:01:57 caliber of tools available for parents and kids. And we're starting a Patreon so everybody can have access to this work. The program is called The Heroic Journey. And our Patreon is the Heroic Journey. And I am super excited. We have a lot of different levels to offer. And just incredible skills like teaching kids and teens, healthy identity, teaching parents, healthy identity and resilience and mindfulness and self-compassion, how to be kind to ourselves and each other. We teach conflict resolution and other things for healthy relationships. And this work is what the world needs right now. So I would love for you guys.

Starting point is 00:02:39 Thank you so much. I'd love for you guys to check it out and take part and support this work so that we can get it out to more people. How does one go and join the Patreon? Thank you. So we are at Patreon, The Heroic Journey. Just do a search for the heroic journey or Patreon slash the heroic journey. and online, if you want to follow us, we're at Superhero IRL, because we're teaching kids to be heroes for themselves and each other. Wow. You know, it's so funny, Chase, because I've talked a lot about the hero's journey, like Joseph Campbell's, you know, and Carl Young's sort of investigations of myth and archetypes that people can model their lives from in healthy ways.

Starting point is 00:03:22 And I just love the name of your group. and the concept behind it, and it's so important. You're absolutely right. It's super important. And Chase has been doing this for a very long time. Thank you. It's really an incredible organization that she has started and ran, run, and we're very proud of her. Thank you so much.

Starting point is 00:03:43 And just, Robbie, to what you said, we teach kids to go on their own hero's journey. We talk about, you know, that refusal of the call and then all of the steps that we take in order to navigate life's challenges and, you know, enlist our allies and mentors and finally bring home the elixir, you know, and that's amazing. Thank you. And one thing that a lot of people don't think about in the hero's journey in that archetype, that that journey is that there has to be a loss. There has to be some pain along the way. And a lot of times people experience pain in their lives and they think, oh, I've got shame about this or I've, you know, I hate myself. There's a lot of that going on. Instead of that pain is what's going to give.

Starting point is 00:04:25 you the gift, if you can go through it. Push through it. Yes. It's in our challenges that we find our power. And then we can share that power and be there for other people. And the healing continues like wildfire. So that's that's what we're doing. Love it. I love. Thank you. So, Armand, I want to talk to you, since we're talking about charities and doing good things in the world. You're busy these days, right? Yes. Kitty and I and Jonathan Frakes and some others, John Millingsling, for instance, are all preparing for what we call, not necessarily what we call, but what our organization calls Purple Stride,

Starting point is 00:05:01 and that's a march in 60 cities around the country to raise awareness and donations to cure pancreatic cancer, a cancer that has touched all of our lives. In my case, my wife Kitty had it and is a survivor. Jonathan lost his brother to it. John Billings, he lost his mother. And we're preparing for that so far. We have raised, our team, which is Team Trek, has raised close to $107,000 for pancreatic cancer research.

Starting point is 00:05:35 Pancan itself, which is the overriding organization. The goal for this year is $17 million, which we do on a regular basis. Why do we need this money? Because the government is cutting back on funding for all cancer research, especially for pancreatic cancer research. so we can no longer depend upon the federal funds we have to reach out to people who have been affected by this disease who don't want to ever hear about this disease again get people to donate and and if you can't donate certainly find the the march nearby you

Starting point is 00:06:08 it's as I said we're in 60 cities and and march with us it's a joyous joyous occasion really and people who have been touched by this disease if you haven't heard of pan can please go to pankan.org and find out about the enormous amount of support, research, doctors, someone to answer your questions, please go to pankan.org. That's great. I mean, it's fascinating to me. I think about, I lost my mother to breast cancer in the early 80s. And the difference in, we haven't beaten this disease yet.

Starting point is 00:06:45 We haven't solved, found a cure, solved it. but the difference in medical knowledge between 1984 when my mother passed away and now is profound. And this kind of money is really important. Same with pancreatic cancer. We may not have beaten it, but I know the difference between when Kitty was fighting it, what Pankan has done to make things more accessible for people, pre-screenings, information, science. It's really important the work they do. And if I may add some numbers to verify what you've just said, when Kitty was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer, the survival rate was 3% incredibly low.

Starting point is 00:07:23 So she's a miracle that she survived 21 years. Because of Pankan, its research and its funding, we are now four times as likely to survive. So the survival rate is now at 13. Now, that's still not a good number, of course. But it is four times better than it was when Kitty was diagnosed. And we, with the donations that we will accumulate over the year, years, especially this year, we hope to raise that number to 100% so that no one should ever die from this disease. This disease that strikes late in its development, we see the

Starting point is 00:07:56 symptoms late in the development, and by the time people see the symptoms, it's usually too late to do anything. So if we can get some pre-tests, if we can find out markers that doctors can look for, especially if your family's been touched by this disease, that would be a remarkable success rate for for beating pancreatic cancer when is the walk armin when is it thank you for asking that's april the 26th and as they said 60 cities around the country if you're interested go to pancann.org there's a list of the 60 cities what time it starts which part of the city it's in i've walked not only in los angeles but also in kansas city and each time there have been thousands of people thousands of joyous people uh celebrating life well and i'll say i know for a fact the star trek community

Starting point is 00:08:42 The fan community has really stepped up and been supportive of this cause. And I'm so proud of our Star Trek community for doing that. They've made a big impact. And you have to, Aramond. And if I may, if I may, Robbie, I want to say thank you. Thank you to all those people that helped and contributed and gave us their prayers. Thank you both. Great causes.

Starting point is 00:09:05 We've got some birthdays, Garrett. We do. We do. Let's start off with saying happy birthday to Sean. Battershaw on April 22nd is his birthday. Happy birthday, Sean. Happy birthday, Sean. Happy birthday, Sean. Happy birthday, Sean. The next birthday we've got is Ryan Mayhew. Ryan on April 24th. Happy birthday, Ryan. Ryan, happy birthday. Happy birthday, Ryan. Happy birthday, Ryan. Happy birthday, Ryan. And last but not least, on April 26th, we have Shamba V. Cottum.

Starting point is 00:09:42 Happy birthday, Shambavi. Happy birthday, Shambavi. Happy birthday, Shambavi. Happy birthday, Shambavi. I have an extra birthday. Yes. April the 23rd. That would be William Shakespeare's birthday.

Starting point is 00:09:54 Happy birthday, Bill. Happy birthday, Bill, Shakespeare. Happy birthday, Bill. Happy birthday, William Shakespeare. Verily, a happy birthday to you, sir. Verily, verily. You know, from my own research, He would never have talked anywhere near that.

Starting point is 00:10:14 Those are sophisticated English accents, which he did not have. It is now time for our poetry synopsis of the episode Explorers, starting with Robbie McNeil and his limerick. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Verily, I will do a limerick now. Oh. A Bajoran solar sail voyage is revived.

Starting point is 00:10:41 A valedictorian shows up, and Bashir is surprised. Jake's writing passion is clear, but he'll delay it for a year. Thank God, Lita's finally arrived. Oh, love that. Bam, bam. Thank you. Yeah, so excited to see you in the show. All right, there's my limerick.

Starting point is 00:11:03 There's my limerick. Garrett, how about a haiku from you, so? Well, I'm glad that you included Lita in yours, because the haiku is so short. I had no time for anything. We all know that. It's very, it's very quick. You got to squeeze a lot into just a few words. Okay.

Starting point is 00:11:17 Here's my, here's my haiku for explorers. Cisco builds spacecraft. Bound for Denorious Belt. Doc and chief, drunk skunks. That was a fun scene. That was a good scene. That was a good scene. That's so good.

Starting point is 00:11:38 Drunk skunks. Drunk skunks. Yes. Yes. And now it's time for Armand's etymology of explorers. So the word explorer comes from the Latin, explore array, to search out, to investigate, and to seek to ascertain or find out, which is appropriate to this episode, seek to ascertain or find out. Interesting that it, yeah, it kind of stuck.

Starting point is 00:12:03 I mean, if you think about civilization over time, exploring and explorers has been such a important part of humanity. And so, yeah, that ancient Latin word has probably not changed a whole lot. No, you know, a lot of Latin words have come into the English language as well simply because it came through the French. When the French took over the English throne,

Starting point is 00:12:24 forgive me for the history lesson. When the English took over the French, when the French took over the English throne, they brought the French language, which is based more on the Latin than English is. English is a more of an Anglo-Saxon-based language, at least Saxon was. And so we have a lot of Latin words

Starting point is 00:12:41 because of the French influence on our language. Thank you for the history lesson. I love history. Next up, we have Chase with her poetry. She has a high co-coons. She surprised us with us. We haven't even heard it. So we are here on Bated Ears waiting to hear this.

Starting point is 00:12:58 Indeed, I'm so excited to be here. I wrote this just for you. The Flyers named Robbie and Garrett created a podcast with Merit. to continue to shine they explore deep space nine so make sure you subscribe and then share it oh very good excellent excellent excellent excellent included explorer in there too wow got to do it good good for you thank you limberts are not easy i'm very impressed thank you for adding some poetry to our our podcast today and joy as always jaces added joy Thank you.

Starting point is 00:13:34 Absolutely. More than just a Dabo girl, so. Absolutely. 100%. Now, I want to ask Chase the question before we get into the episode. I have a vague memory and you have to educate me if I'm right or wrong because my memory is a little faulty these days. Did we get together for your audition for this role? No, for my audition?

Starting point is 00:13:57 Yeah. No. In my research, basically Chase auditioned for a different role first. Oh, maybe it was the other. And that was Marda. She auditioned for Marda, which is Jake Sisko's girlfriend. Do you remember that episode where young Jake ends up in a relationship with a Dobbo girl? Yeah.

Starting point is 00:14:17 And that was played, I think, by Jocer. And evidently, that was what Chase auditioned for first. And in the notes that I read online, correct me if I'm wrong, Chase, I think that episode was being directed by Avery. And his comments were, well, if this person, if this double girl is going to be dating my 16-year-old son, I feel that this actress may skew or look a little too, not young enough, right? Yes. Is that something that was said? So basically, so basically, yes. I was auditioning for the role of Marta, Jake's girlfriend in the second season. And it, you know, I got down to the final two, actually. But they ended up casting the other girl because Jake was 16 and she was 19 and I'm not. So I thought, oh, how close and yet so far away. And then I was told they wrote the role of Lita for me.

Starting point is 00:15:20 Oh, yeah. And I mean, what a crazy honor. But I have to tell you, my story with Deep Space 9, actually with Star Trek, goes back farther than that to my class with you, Garrett. Yes. So Garrett and I were in a class of 10 people in a city of 12 million people. And three of those people were Garrett, Jonathan Del Arcoe from NextGen and Picard and me. And Jonathan would come to class on Monday nights and he would tell us about these places that he got to go to these conventions and meet the people who make the show possible, which is the fans. And I thought, wow, to get to do stories like.

Starting point is 00:16:01 that, get to travel and meet these people that, like, are so beautifully supportive of your work of the show, that's the show I want to be on. So I actually, like, prayed and meditated to be on Deep Space Nine when that came along. It's so wild. I actually was in some of these showcase classes. And that's where you can pay, like, at that point, it was $30. Now it's more like 100, where you can go meet these casting directors. But I was too poor. Or at that point, I was a single parent. I was new in town. I couldn't pay the $30.

Starting point is 00:16:36 So I told the woman at this casting place, if you let me take your classes, I'll make phone calls for you and build your business. So I did. And she gave me a limited number of classes. And because of those stories from Jonathan Del Arco, I picked Ron Serma to go to take his showcase class. Oh, wow.

Starting point is 00:16:56 Just so everybody knows, Ron Serma was the assistant casting director, who's actually the main person. He was the assistant casting person on Deep Space Nine and other shows. Yes. Yeah. Ron Serma was the gatekeeper for Star Trek actors. If you wanted to get on the show, you had to go through Ron. All right.

Starting point is 00:17:11 Let's talk teleplay. Teleplay by Renee Eshavaria. We have Story by Hillary J. Bader, directed by Cliff Ball. Now, it's interesting because when Hillary actually pitched this story to the writing staff, she wanted this to be an O'Brien story in terms of O'Brien's story, in terms of O'Brien. Ryan was the one that made the sales and sailed away towards the Cardassian home world. But then the writers are like, you know what? We want a father-son story with Cisco and company.

Starting point is 00:17:44 So that's why it was changed at the last second. And I think they made the right choice. It really, really changes. It's more impactful as a father-son story, I feel. Yeah. It works best. This episode works best. Excuse me, Chase.

Starting point is 00:17:59 but when the father-son's story is being told. Those moments with Jake and Cisco are so sweet, and especially with the theme of, you know, the theme of you won't always be here with me and let's make time while we can. Yes, very relatable, very relatable. Okay, guest stars, Mark Alamo, of course, has Golda Cot. Barry Hawkwold is Elizabeth Lenz,

Starting point is 00:18:26 and she was our validation. Victorian and I guess co-student with Bashir. But she came onto the scene in 93 where she booked two roles, Sequest, and Dr. Quinn Medicine Woman. Those were her two first roles in 93. I did a little research on Barry as well and found that when she sort of stopped appearing on television, she created an incredibly important theater company that became an international theater company, for which I applaud her. I've never seen her since we shot that episode,

Starting point is 00:19:03 but the fact that she went and did something that was close to her heart, bravo, bravo, or in this case, brava. I'm looking at her website, and Armin, you're right. It's a very interesting international, political, social stories and looks incredibly creative. While you're looking at that, you may see a picture of Jamie Cromwell, who appeared in one of her shows, I have great empathy for that, that she gave all the acting up in order to run a theater company. Yeah, very imaginative and kind of international. It looks like almost avant-garde in many ways, some of the work that she's done. It's, yeah, very interesting. And not gave all the acting up. It sounds like she's done some really wonderful things since then. That's true. Sorry,

Starting point is 00:19:48 yes, that's right. That's right. Yeah. Well, very cool. Thanks for bringing that up. I wouldn't have known that, aren't. I wouldn't know that either. And of course, the other guest star is none other than Chase Masterson as Lita. And I'm going to ask Chase now, what was your very first credit? It was actually midsummer night's dream on stage. I played Helena. It was a huge amphitheater, 1,200 people. Wow. And I did that. Thank you. I did that for Summerstock, just out of high school. What about film and TV? What is your first film or television role? I got my degree in theater, which I was very committed to and did a lot of really wonderful work there with language, Malir and Shakespeare and also like Jacobian tragedy and things. So I had heard,

Starting point is 00:20:32 I had heard that Ron Sirmah and the producers cast a lot of theater actors in Star Trek. And so that was one reason I also thought that I could at least try. And yeah, thank you. So I think my first professional job here was General Hospital, and I was brought on to break up Luke and Laura, which also had this wonderful Star Trek connection with Laura being Jeannie, married to Jonathan Franks. Chase, did you like doing the soap, or how was it for you? I did like it. The team was lovely to me, and they were lovely to each other. And, you know, you have to really just love that when people become a family and work well together. And that makes the experience just, you know, great. Let's get a little bit of trivia out of the way.

Starting point is 00:21:17 As I said before, Hillary J. Bader's original story featured Miles O'Brien, rather than Benjamin and Jake Sisko. It was the producers who decided that they needed a father and son episode. Renee Eschavaria, who took the story pitch from Bader, commented, Bader was talking about an old spaceship with primitive engines. I love the idea and suggested solar sales, and she loved that idea. Ronald D. Moore then added his own suggestions. Moore commented after Hillary's pitch, I wrote up a memo that said, let's make this about the Bajorans, and let's tie it into the treaty that was established in the episode Life Support and see a different side of Cisco, that he's really into something for a personal reason and wants to make it a father-son project. So they go out and bond on this ship as Jake is getting older, and Cisco realizes that Jake has other interests. He wants to be a writer, but ironically, the thing holding him back is he's worried about his dad. I thought that was a nice character moment. René Eshavaria did a wonderful job with the script. That's one.

Starting point is 00:22:15 little tidbit. The other one is the song Jerusalem, which was sung by O'Brien and Bashir during a drinking binge, was chosen by Columini and Siddig El-Fadil, or Alexander Siddig. They got to pick the song? Yeah. After the producer, determined that obtaining the rights to their initial choices, Louis-Louis, or Rocket Man, would be too expensive. Oh, that would have been fun, though. Can you imagine them singing Rocket Man? Oh, my God, That would be amazing. When I was watching the episode, I was really sure this was a song, Dear to Colum's Heart.

Starting point is 00:22:48 I just knew it was. Yeah, it did seem. It felt authentic. Yes, it did. I wanted to mention about the solar sales. I got to interview Buzz Aldrin in Huntsville, Alabama, at a NASA space celebration or something. And I remember when I was talking to Buzz Aldrin on stage, he talked about solar sales. He was really into the, you.

Starting point is 00:23:12 know, experimental science behind this, and he thought propulsion in, you know, with solar sales and some version of that was worth looking into. So when I saw this episode and I saw the solar sales, I immediately remembered that conversation with Buzz Aldrin and the realism of this idea, this technology is not just writerly made up. There's some real science behind it. As there is in many of our episodes, there's real science backing up the science fiction. Back to the song, Jerusalem, Alexander Siddig recalled Jerusalem was very familiar to both of us. It's like an anthem in England and something that drunk people might very well sing. In the script, Sisko named his ship the Baraka and explained to Cura that it meant good fortune in the Swahili language.

Starting point is 00:24:00 So I guess that's a scene that did not get included because I don't think they even talk about that. It's not there. Yeah. Yeah. It can also mean blessing or prosperity. This ship that he builds was actually inspired by the voyage of the Contiki. Do you guys remember the

Starting point is 00:24:14 Conti? Yes, yes, yes, yeah, yeah. And for those of you don't know that are listening, this was basically a deliberately primitive sailing craft that a Norwegian explorer, Thor Hayadar, used to sail from Peru to Tahiti in 1947, substantiating his belief that it was

Starting point is 00:24:30 possible that a pre-Columbian South American civilization could have settled Polynesia by making a trans-oceanic voyage. He proved it that it worked. It is like a Contiki episode, actually. It's very much a contiki episode. Yeah. Interesting. Production designer Herman Zimmerman and illustrator Jim Martin envisioned the Cisco's as sailors in space and intentionally made the set of the light ship similar to a sailing boat. René Escheravaria told Zimmerman and Martin that he wanted the ship

Starting point is 00:24:59 to have a Jules Verne look, a wooden cabin outfitted with brass. Indeed, some real sailing equipment can even be seen in the background at various points in the episode. Both men count this episode among their favorites to work on from a design point of view, and Zimmerman mentions it in the Star Trek Five Final Frontier Special Edition DVD. As Jim Martin explained, in reality, a solar sail would need to be several miles wide to propel a ship like this. So in the show, obviously, what we see is not miles and miles and miles wide. It's quite contained. Did Dan Curry design the look of the ship? Do we know that? Not the interior, but the exterior. The graphics, you know, I don't know how. I don't remember how they did it on Star Trek, but it was a co-production,

Starting point is 00:25:47 like a collaboration between the production designer and visual effects. Usually the production designer would come up with a look, a piece of art that sort of captured it. And then I think Dan Curry would figure out how to build that in a model or CG form. But it was a bit of a, I think, they co-proed that well kudos to both herman and and if it was dan to dan uh because the look of the interior of the ship and the exterior of the ship was phenomenal it was really gorgeous gorgeous and and the set i hope they kept the set for that ship because it would be a tragedy to have lost that yeah it doesn't list uh dan's name but it primarily talks about herman and jim martin so i think those two are the primaries on this project but yeah that whole jules verne slash steam

Starting point is 00:26:35 punk look is is beautiful it's wonderful a lot of people love that aesthetic and must have been difficult for cliff to put a camera in there and shoot and again kudos to cliff for um for being able to do that because that didn't look like an easy set to shoot on no no good insight yeah it looked like they pulled the side walls and would track back and forth a lot because it was so tight in there yeah claustrophobic indeed very claustrophobic yeah um another interesting little tidbit has to do with Chase, actually, is that when they did include Lita, Lita was originally intended to be a one-episode character. But the producers were so impressed with her performance that they wrote the character into another episode called FACTS. So,

Starting point is 00:27:23 and subsequently decided to add her to the list of recurring characters in season four. So kudos to Chase for taking something that was only supposed to be one episode, this episode, an introduction, and that would have been the end of Lita to parlaying it into something much larger. And they had tried. They had tried. We had had a couple of Dabo girls in the course of our run, and the only one really to last is Chase's character, Leader.

Starting point is 00:27:51 Speaking of Lita, the mythology I've always heard, and Chase can probably verify or not verify, is that Lita is named after the script coordinator, Lolita Fetchie. Yes, as far as I understand it. Oh, yeah, Lita and low Lita. Lita. Yeah. And they do those wonderful things, right? They put in those Easter eggs and, you know, cast and crew Easter eggs.

Starting point is 00:28:13 And that's always fun. On the day that we shot, I shot at the same time as Barry Hockwald. And it was interesting that Rick Berman came down to the set that day. And it was kind of a big deal. And somebody said to me, Rick never comes to set. He must be scouting out somebody to recur. They said it's either you or Barry. And I thought, oh, for sure, it's Barry.

Starting point is 00:28:36 She is so lovely and just such a lovely actress. And I just really thought, absolutely, I don't stand a chance here. It's got to be her. And so I was shocked. And also, what an extreme honor. But, yeah, she was so beautiful in that episode. I just have to say, I've always loved her work. Both of your characters were, you know, involved in Bashir's story.

Starting point is 00:29:02 And by the way, Chase, just so you know, Garrett and I have not watched ahead. We've never seen all these episodes. We're watching them for the first time. They have no idea what happens to you. I was going to say that the fact that they had Lita and Elizabeth, both stories connected to Bashir, I immediately said when I finished this episode,

Starting point is 00:29:21 I'm like, oh, they must be setting up a love interest around Bashir. And the fact that Rick Berman came down to watch that day, as you said, it was a bit of a sort of a certain thing, Survivor kind of or American Idol moment, it seems to me that, oh, let's write two characters in here, see who has more chemistry or who, you know, and then maybe that'll be the one that we recur. So maybe that's what was going on. You know, it's to Chase benefit that they voted Barry off the island. So it's absolutely fine that we have with Chase as Lita. I want to read two more things, guys. Director Cliff Ball commented, I think the DS9 episode I really enjoyed was a story

Starting point is 00:30:02 with Avery and his son, and they were on a special little ship that they built, and they went out in space. We built a marvelous set very small, and it was just the two of them. It was a great relationship show with some great optical effects, and I was able to come up with some camera movement inside of the set with cranes and stuff. I just enjoyed the whole thing. So Cliff actually loved this episode of all the different DS9 episodes he's directed. And we also have one other little tidbit here I want to read, and this is from Iris Stephen Bear. Bear was also extremely happy with the O'Brien-slash-Bashir drinking scene, and he felt that it was an important scene in establishing DS9's differing ideology from Star Trek the next generation.

Starting point is 00:30:44 Bear explained, that was a scene I pushed for. Every couple of shows, I'll have a scene that becomes a baby that I nurture. This one was just so human. It had friendship, it had vulnerability, it was funny, it was sloppy. It's that stuff that deep space not. had helped bring back into the Star Trek universe. The next generation was very serious at times. And I understand that it did a lot of wonderful things,

Starting point is 00:31:13 but it had a very self-important air to it. Finding things that work against that is very important to me. Nice. Wow. Yeah. That is powerful. Okay, doke. Let's jump right into this episode.

Starting point is 00:31:29 Let's do. We start in Quarks. and introduce Lita right off the top. We pan across all of corks, and my eye immediately went to Chase Masterson over by one of the tables. And not to Broyke, who's the person who's moving the camera?

Starting point is 00:31:47 Nope. Nope. I immediately looked at Lita. I don't know if you had a special light on you. I don't know what it was. Something was going on where it was like, you were just popping. You saw her.

Starting point is 00:31:59 In a wide shot. That's not easy to do. Thank you. That means a lot. That really does. You really popped in that very first shot. Yeah. Thank you. That's so nice. You were faking a cough. You go over to Bashir and fake this cough. So it's so cute. It's so charming. Thank you.

Starting point is 00:32:18 Yeah. And Bashir is clearly onto you, but still very intrigued. And he offers you a finalian toddy, which I want to try, by the way. Right? Yes. It sounds delicious. and it's good medicine. It apparently was. I have to say it's one of the things I really liked about Lita that she was clever in that way. Didn't go up to Bashir to say, hey, want to drink after work?

Starting point is 00:32:45 How about a finali and toddy? But really kind of met him on his level and did something that we all knew was, you know, a sham. But it was a clever way to say hello, you know? It's very charming, yes. Yeah, not just any pickup line. So, Lina's cleverness struck me as a fun thing right off the back. Dax interrupts you as well. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:33:09 Dax walks up. She's on to you as well. But she's like, please, go away. He literally tells her just to leave. On the pad. Pad is what he does. Because he says, like, hey, I've got this, the new immunology data that you asked for. And he types in there, go away, which is very funny.

Starting point is 00:33:26 It's huge letters, too. It's huge letters, exactly. That's like, what font would that be? I don't even know what size. thought that is, but a huge. But I also love how Bashir earlier when he's saying, well, make that too, Toddy, because I'm feeling a bit of a cough coming on myself. So he plays along with her perfectly. It's a very nice, you know, give and go kind of a scene. I love that. Yes. And Sid's elegance is so lovely. It's, you know, there's nothing rough about this. Did you get along with,

Starting point is 00:33:53 with Sid immediately? How was it the first time you worked with Sid? I did very much so. He was just lovely and warm and understood that this was my first perhaps only episode. And just was very, very sweet to me. It was really nice. How nervous were you? Extremely. I was extremely nervous, partly because I was a pretty new actor. And partly because Rick Berman was there. And, you know, there's a lot riding on that. And partly just because I just wanted to do a good job. You know, when you care, when you care, it impacts you. So, but I felt like, just stay focused like one thing about Lita I wanted to do was just to be to have a really light touch about her. I mean, I had to think about all the dynamics of the show and we already

Starting point is 00:34:42 had a Bajoran who had dark hair and brown eyes, which was basically me too. We had that in Nana. So I had to be very, I had to be really different. And I thought the way that I could be different was to have a very light touch and no nerves at all, just to be very even and calm and gentle. So that all was in play that day. And you also added a bit of an affectation to your voice, too. You changed that a little bit from your normal voice, which I thought it was pretty cool. Thank you. That was also because of Nana already being a dark-haired Bajoran woman. Yes. And I thought if I have that kind of same forthright energy, there will be two of us and why do they need two of us?

Starting point is 00:35:33 And so that was a mindful choice. And I just thought, you know, if I'm being brought on to have some lightheartedness in the midst of the rest of this dark background of war, that was just one of the ways I tried to accomplish that. Well, one of my earliest scenes to film on Voyager was with Armin. And Armin was the person that helped calm me down a little bit my nerves. So I'm wondering, was there anyone on set that helped? to calm you down a little bit.

Starting point is 00:36:02 I think that would be Sid. Yeah, I didn't have a lot of interaction with anybody. You know who is lovely? Judy the script lady. Oh, lovely. Yeah. Judy Brown.

Starting point is 00:36:11 And, you know, I knew everything cold, so I didn't need to interact with her much. But she just was lovely. She's very maternal, Judy. She's very maternal. Very, yeah,

Starting point is 00:36:20 very comforting and warm. Yeah. Who did your makeup? Do you remember? Yes, it was, for the prosthetic, it was somebody I never did. work with again, but Michael came and did my eyebrows. And I actually, I had to ask him,

Starting point is 00:36:35 I said, if it's okay, sir, could I ask for a little more red in my eyebrows and a little more definition? And he said, well, let, you know, let's try it. And they did. And, and, and then he said, she's right. So I guess knowing your face, knowing your own face helps. But I just also want to put out a shout to Lou Race. He was wonderful. First AD. First AD. And, yeah, I ended up hiring him for a film I produced, a really neat film noir feature that I produced years later.

Starting point is 00:37:09 And, yeah, we had such a great team on that show. Lou's a great guy. I heard Lou for a, was it a pilot or something that I did? I remember bringing Lou on, and he's awesome. Yeah, yeah, good guy. I've often thought about this. You came on the set. First of all, it's a lovely Disneyland set with, I mean, our set was one complete set,

Starting point is 00:37:28 the promenade was huge and was what it was. It wasn't cut up into sections. But you also had all these background people, myself included, who were strangely made up. That must have been a little bit not off-putting but different. And how did you deal with the fact that you were staring at people? Now, granted, it is human, but how did you deal with the fact that all these people were surrounding you were in strange costumes and strange faces at times. I always thought that was an interesting thing about Star Trek.

Starting point is 00:38:05 And it took me a while as a viewer to understand all that it meant. And I'll tell you very briefly, I found that. I learned that by watching NextGen. And the reason I watched NextGen is because I had a boyfriend who was such a Trekkie that I was only allowed to call him during commercials. that's very funny who's sorry now by then I was

Starting point is 00:38:36 acclimated to the things that the different races meant but it's one thing to see it on the screen it's another to be faced with it in your face when they come right up to you yeah yeah and then you look at it and you go Michael Dorn you've got this thing on your face

Starting point is 00:38:52 but also to have a big crowd scene like that too on your first day, uh, you know, full of all of this like major stimulation. That was interesting. How did you deal with that? I mean, well, you were one of those people, frankly, Armin. There were some makeup sometimes. I went, whoa, whoa, that's incredible. Um, but, um, but by then I was, I was used to it. But, um, yeah, in the very first, uh, episode I did on Next Generation, it was, it was, they were all the same. We were all four for Ferengi. So, uh, so we were the only, but, you know, The Cardassian makeup was always astounding to me.

Starting point is 00:39:28 And I knew how much they were suffering under all of that. And the costumes that they had to wear. And the costumes, yes. The costume was worse than anything. We all talked about the makeup, but the Cardassian costumes were horrible. Yeah. Really, I hadn't realized that. Oh, they're wetsuits.

Starting point is 00:39:46 Layers of wetsuit, yeah. So you are sweating like a pig under there, and there's no place for the perspiration to go. So when they would have large Clingon scenes and these guys had been in it for 20 minutes or so, they would have to pull these wetsuits off of them because they were suffocating in their own sweat. Wow. Wow. Wow.

Starting point is 00:40:09 Wow. Well, the end of the scene, Dax does throw out that the Lexington has arrived, or it hasn't arrived yet, but it's coming. And she knows what that means to Bashir and she leaves. And he chases her out into the promenade and asks about the Lexington. and when is it coming? Dax does reveal that she knows the medical officer Elizabeth Lenz is on board and we learned that she beat

Starting point is 00:40:32 Bashir out for Valedictorian. He seems very nervous about seeing her again because of the post-ganglionic nerve debacle that happened. He should have been valedictorian, but the post-ganglionic nerve. Gangliotic nerve. Every time they said it, it made me smile.

Starting point is 00:40:50 I just like that word. They keep talking about that pre-ganglionic. It's a running theme for Bashir. It keeps going, yeah. So my question is, why is he nervous about seeing her? It can't be just from losing out. There must have been, there seems to be in Sid's performance that it wasn't just that, although we never find out what that other thing is.

Starting point is 00:41:14 No. But there seems to be more than just losing out. To me it did. To me it felt like a real vulnerable spot for him, but later on, not to say. spoil later on when he explains he always feels second best that she is just somebody who pushes that button and i feel i could relate to that that you know we all have people in our lives that that have you know had better luck in their careers or whatever it is and just the name comes up and you just feel that that resentment that that failure that insecurity that's what i got from

Starting point is 00:41:50 this yeah like an older sibling kind of thing as well. So does this indicate that Dr. Bashir has a great sense of combat, and the combat's the wrong word, competition. Competitiveness. Is that something we're supposed to sense from this? I don't think yet, I think later on that, to me, that track that later on when he talks about it, it tracked that, oh, I see, it's his competitive nature and his insecurities, and she represents all of that. I think it's already showed his competitive nature in all the different racket games that he's been playing, right? He's very competitive from what I've observed.

Starting point is 00:42:31 I would agree on that. I think that he is competitive and lighthearted, but when it comes to his work, I think it really hit a deep spot. And what a wonderful way to show the layers of this character, the insecurity, is being beaten. And of course, it's lovely that he was beaten by a woman. Not that that matters in the 24th century, but now it's a really cool thing to see. Yeah. Did you think, Armand, that it was suggesting that he had a romantic attraction to her or something? When I think back on watching the episode, yeah, I think that that's what I got.

Starting point is 00:43:11 You know, every view or see something different. It could have been that. It could have been, uh-oh, it was a horrible breakup or, you know, something like that. I mean, he leaves Chase immediately when Stax tells him. And to me, that seemed to indicate that that there was another woman. It just wasn't his career. It was matters of the heart on something. Yeah, exactly.

Starting point is 00:43:32 I get that. Chase, is that your take as well, that there was a little bit of romance involved with Lenz, with Elizabeth? I think it's a nice layer, or maybe that he had hoped there would be. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just a little, you know, just a little thing.

Starting point is 00:43:51 again there's the there's the survivor competition of is it leader or is it elizabeth maybe maybe yeah and maybe sid didn't know and we were talking earlier about which of these ladies might recur maybe sid thought that elizabeth might recur in either case sid was going to luck out one way or the other it may be that he thought that too so maybe he was adding that to his performance because the truth of the matter is my experience i'm asking all of you as well but in my experience it was very rare for the directors to give us notes. So whatever we chose to do, that's what ended up on the screen. Right. Yeah. Is that your experience, Chase? Did you feel like you got directed by Cliff in terms of performance nuance or any of that? Do you remember? I didn't feel like I got

Starting point is 00:44:39 directed by him. It was my understanding, again, having not worked a lot in television before that, it was just my understanding that that didn't happen because of time, you know, except in rare cases, of course. Was that your experience overall? Partially for me because of time and also because a lot of directors, and I'm going to be very general, but a lot of directors came from technical backgrounds and didn't know how to talk to actors and they just didn't know what to say. So they would set up shots and they'd say go faster, you know, that might be a note or take a moment here, you know, so we can cut. So we can cut. Those were the kind of directions. You didn't get a direction of like, you know, this is a passionate, you know, romance brewing here. And I want

Starting point is 00:45:26 I want you to, you know, find a way to, to desire her, show her your, I never got anything like that. Nothing. Right. We had one director who was very good about giving the actor's direction. That was Avery Brooks. I bet. Because he was an actor. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Same for me too. Yeah. Very little acting direction from any director, unless they were an actor first so mm-hmm well the next scene is in cisco's quarters uh we go in and here we see the goatee the first time very first episode with a goatee on is it real that goate it looked like it was applied actually well it did look that way but i i would venture to say avery would not have worn an applied goatee i would have i i can't and chase can back me up here i i don't think avery ever did

Starting point is 00:46:16 anything that he wasn't 100% happy with. I think the reason why both Robbie and I thought it might have been applied is it was kind of bushy in a way. It was like that would have taken a few weeks. Exactly. It may be that the hair department did add some stuff to it, but not necessarily hair. Maybe just the way they manicured. Or some or gel or something.

Starting point is 00:46:39 Yeah. Something. Now watch. Everyone is going to pause right here and go watch the episode for his go tea. and see if it's a wig on his face or if it was real. I don't think I'm speaking a lie here, but I believe that he had wanted a goatee for a long time and they finally acceded to his wishes.

Starting point is 00:46:59 Terry Farrell mentioned that, that I think he had wanted that. Wow, as in from day one, maybe he wanted the game to you. I don't know, day one, but pretty close to day one. My goodness. Was it that it would look to mirror universe? Because everyone has a goatee, even me, in the mirror universe. So, I'm way out on the limb here.

Starting point is 00:47:17 I don't think it's that. But I'm way, you know, he never discussed it with me. So I don't know. Well, the goatee appears for the first time. Cisco's coming in. He's got a bag. He wants to toss down. We see Jake hide a pad very quickly.

Starting point is 00:47:29 Yeah. So we know something is up. Jake's got a secret of some kind. But Cisco has just returned from Bejor. He's gone to a library opening. And he's just inspired by this museum of a library. It's got the most extensive collection of artifacts. on Bayjor, and he particularly loved the history of these Bajoran sailor, solar sail ships,

Starting point is 00:47:52 that it's believed that they were the first interstellar ships that were able to travel, that Bajorans actually invented or were the first to have that kind of interstellar travel before Cardassians, clearly before humans, before Vulcans, anyone else, Bejor did it first, which is going to be a runner with the Cardassians. They don't like that. And that's a page right out of the Contiki book. I mean, that's exactly what Thor Hairedo was doing the same thing. I must point out, you can't grow, even in the 25th century, you can't grow a beard overnight, believe me.

Starting point is 00:48:34 Right. So he's been away for a while. If Jake hasn't seen this beard before, he's been away for a while. he's been away for a couple of weeks at least I'm thinking well how long has he been away who's been running the station he's been reading about ships and stuff and for two weeks or more probably more and that's never commented upon

Starting point is 00:48:54 it could have been a funny running joke like every single person who saw him like what that's right although there's nobody no that's not true they all they all encounter him I don't but everybody Terry Terry does Terry did They go to the, well, in the next scene, they go to the cargo bay because at the end of the scene with Jake, Cisco says he's going to build a ship,

Starting point is 00:49:16 just like the Bajorans did. And we cut to the cargo bay. He's setting up to build his solar ship, sail ship. O'Brien is there, very skeptical, not commenting on his goatee. By the way, you have a nice goatee, Armin. Thank you. So do you. You too.

Starting point is 00:49:31 Both. Well, mine's sort of a half beard. Mine's just laziness, Armin. it would take me 30 years to grow what Armin and Robbie have on my Asian face. It's not going to happen. My Asian face. You know what I love about this scene? O'Brien is talking to Cisco and Cisco says like, you know what?

Starting point is 00:49:52 I need a saber saw. And O'Brien's like, what? Don't you want to use a laser cut? He's like, no, no. I want to use the old school tools that the Bajorans did 800 years ago. And just the sound of that saber saw, I want a saber saw. well. It sounds amazing. Yes. A saber saw, isn't that just like a circular saw or I don't even know? No, I don't think so. Forgive me, I don't know for sure, but I think a saber saw is a saw

Starting point is 00:50:20 electric saw that goes back and forth. But I could be wrong. I'm going to look it up. You're right. It's a reciprocating saw like a jigsaw. So yeah, it's a pretty common. With two handles on each side and you just go back and forth. Well, I'm looking at some. I just looked it up. A saws-all is one version of a saber saw. A saber, so think of a saber is another word for a sword, right? Cutlass. A cutlass. It's actually closer to a cutlass than it is to a sword.

Starting point is 00:50:51 Cutlass, yes, thank you. I'm going to make this motion. That's what a saber saw does. Like, interesting. Okay. I, though, like to think that it's made from the teeth of saber-tooth tigers. Oh, I like to think. The fantasy version.

Starting point is 00:51:08 And you continue to think that. I will. Maybe they resurrected in the 24th century. And we'll all snicker behind your back. I did like that O'Brien is skeptical of this whole thing. He's the real engineer. Very skeptical. And we also learned that O'Brien thinks Bajorans like to claim credit that they invented

Starting point is 00:51:30 pretty much everything, which I never knew O'Brien had that perspective, that point of view about the Bajorans. But he's like, no, no, he's. He says that about Romulans, though, right? No, he says it about Bajorans, doesn't he? No, he goes, okay, with all, O'Brien, with all due respect, Major, you're beginning to sound like a Romulan. Kira, a Romulan, there's no piece of technology in existence

Starting point is 00:51:52 that they don't claim they invented before everyone else. Romulan. Oh, I thought he was talking about Bajorans. No. I don't know. Bajorans are more spiritual than that, right? Yeah. Yeah, that's what I thought, too.

Starting point is 00:52:04 That's why I was surprised, but I miss heard it then because I thought he was talking about Bajorans. That's more the Cardassian attitude about Bajorans that they think Bajorans are claiming to have traveled. Cardassians want to deny it. Okay, so Cisco wants to build his ship.

Starting point is 00:52:21 He's in the cargo bay. Miles says, why don't you just build a computer model? You know, do a holodeck version or a simulation. And Cisco says, no, this will be a lot more fun. And then we go to this montage of Cisco building a ship. And my note, I wrote down as, Wow, that was fast.

Starting point is 00:52:39 I mean, I know a montage is supposed to accelerate time. And I think we learned in the Elizabeth Lens timeline that she was coming in two weeks. Lexington was coming in two weeks. So he has built from scratch a spaceship in less than two weeks because Elizabeth's lens is not here yet. Yeah. I just want to add when Cisco says, why? Because it'll be fun. The look on O'Brien and Kira's faces, just classic.

Starting point is 00:53:10 They're just completely, yeah, they're completely beside themselves. They're like, fun. What do you? It just, yeah, lovely, nonverbal. Yes. I did like Cliff Bull's montage of Cisco building. Yes, that was very good. It was beautiful to watch.

Starting point is 00:53:25 Yeah, yeah. I love the fact that they got him a welder's helmet as well. Yeah. Love that. That was terrific. Yeah. Really nice character. character stuff from Avery in there, too.

Starting point is 00:53:36 Just the care and specificity. But the question does arise, why didn't he get any help? I mean, shipbuilders didn't do it all by themselves. They had help. Why didn't he get, you know, why didn't he get Chase to help do the welding, you know? I wonder if they wanted to amplify the sort of obsession, like the personal mission. Okay, so he's been away three weeks growing up here. He's now two weeks building a solar ship.

Starting point is 00:54:01 Who the hell is running the stage? Doesn't he have a day job? It doesn't he have a day job, yeah. If we're being real, how long do you think that would have really taken? I would say, I would say months. Yeah, months. Maybe a couple of years to hear of that. Especially with a jigsaw.

Starting point is 00:54:20 Yeah. With a saber saw. Didn't he ask for wood? He built a wooden ship to go into space. He didn't ask for brass. The ship has got brass all over it. It's beautiful. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:54:31 It is a very romantic kind of. It is that. session and the real, real wood and the earthy kind of thing. And model builders are very intense. So maybe, you know, two weeks. Well, we've got varying time estimates. I said several months, Robbie says a couple of years. Yeah, to get it done.

Starting point is 00:54:52 I love it. Well, we'll look up the Contiki and see how long that took to build. Yeah, there you go. If I may bring in my passion as well, when the Globe Theater was built in London, They used only ancient tools and ancient materials. When you go to the globe today, the one that exists today, it's all made just the way Cisco is doing it with old utensils and old materials and everything is put together the way they would have made it 400.

Starting point is 00:55:22 And how long did it take to build the globe? It took several years to do it. Like 10 years or something. Congratulations, Benjamin Cisco for building a spaceship. with the Sabresaw in two weeks. Anyway, we go back to Cisco's quarters. Cisco tells Jake that it's almost ready. One more week.

Starting point is 00:55:41 So he's only been doing this for a week, then. Anyway, one more week, he says, he asked Jake to join him on this trip, says it's going to take about four or five days to get to Cardassia, to the Cardassian sector. And Jake says, you know, sorry, dad, it's bad timing. He says, Leanne is coming back

Starting point is 00:56:00 to visit from Bayjore, And you can see Cisco says he understands, but you can see his disappointment in that scene, you know. And you can also see that Jake is not telling the whole story that he's using this excuse, but it's not the whole story. We go to the Bajoran ship now that Cisco's building, and we start to get a sense of this whole ship. Dax is there. Dax is very impressed. She talks about the detail that Cisco is put into the ship it reminds her of all the detail he put into uh jake's nursery so another connection with the father-son story that you know sweet that was sweet doesn't he talk about the gravity net or something yeah he says something about gravity in the scene he says it yeah they

Starting point is 00:56:50 would have had no no gravity in the ship but he put gravity in which it's a good thing because it would have them millions oh good oh right right that's funny Yeah, he said weightlessness makes him sick or something like that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Weightlessness makes the Paramount Accountant sick is what it does. Right, right. Dax talks to him about, you know, how disappointed he is that Jake isn't coming.

Starting point is 00:57:17 And this is a very sweet scene because Cisco reveals, you know, I think maybe I waited too long to do these kind of things that I should have done it when he was younger. And to me, as a parent, that's very relatable, you know. Yes. Time flies. And even as a son, I look back to my relationship with my dad and think, oh, why didn't we go do these things when he was alive, you know, so it's a very sweet scene. But Dax says there's going to be new adventures. And she mentions that she's been a father before many times and that she knows.

Starting point is 00:57:51 That was a fun sci-fi twist on fatherly advice using Dax to give some fatherly advice there. I thought it was really great. Yeah, that was. Yeah. We go back to Cisco's quarters. I call this the giant laptop scene. This is where Jake goes over at the computer. It is the biggest laptop I've ever seen in my life.

Starting point is 00:58:11 In profile, it's huge, right? I was like, is that a desktop or a laptop? What is that thing? It was so big. I think they're desktops. I think they're desktos. Yeah, it was a hybrid office desk and computer at the same time. It looked like a 1950s general electric, I don't know,

Starting point is 00:58:28 mainframe computer system on his desk. But nice that he had it as a kid. Jeez. Jake comes in, asks the computer if there's any messages. It displays it on the screen. It gets one from New Zealand. By the way,

Starting point is 00:58:39 I would smile if I got a message from New Zealand because I love New Zealand. For anybody listening, love New Zealand. Yeah. Right. Great people. After visiting one time, Megan wanted to move there. Same. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:58:51 Same. Before we get off of this, kudos to Sirak Lofton for his acting. The more I watch these episodes. Chase, one of the things I haven't shared with you, the more I watch these episodes, the more I just think Sirac is acting circles around everybody else. I just think he's terrific.

Starting point is 00:59:11 He is really beautiful. Yeah. He is terrific. Yeah. It needs to be said again, the relationship between Avery and Surac off camera is as real, authentic, beautiful as it is on camera. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:59:27 Yeah. Yeah. So good for both of them. But I think what's even more impressive is his youth, how young he is and his grasp of acting at this age. And understand, he's the only kid on the show. I know Nog is a kid, but he's not. He's, you know, all by himself with all these adults in strange makeup and strange costumes. Oh, yeah, yeah.

Starting point is 00:59:47 Remarkably unselfconscious, remarkably centered and grounded. Exactly. Sensitive. Cudos to Mr. Brooks who helped nurture that. Yeah. Sarak is like that as a person, too, isn't he? I mean, he's just lovely and centered and grounded and there's never a fake moment. He's never inflating himself.

Starting point is 01:00:09 He's just a good guy. He's a really good guy. Yeah. And have to give some of that to his mother, Miezer. Myezza is a phenomenal lady. I've never had a chance to meet her. No, me neither. Beautiful, too.

Starting point is 01:00:25 Well, we see Surrach a moment later peeking through a hole in a portal in the solar sailship he peeks in and Cisco's working and he's very impressed and he tells his dad he wants to come along if you'll still have me.

Starting point is 01:00:44 So that's nice. Very nice. Very wise for the character for the 16-year-old boy to say I realize my dad would want this and I'm going to give it to him, despite the fact that his girlfriend's coming back from wherever she's coming from and everything else.

Starting point is 01:01:03 I wonder, what do you guys think? So Jake decides to come on this trip. He's just gotten news in the previous scene. Do you think Jake comes on knowing that he's not going to go? Because he just smiled at that what we learned to be the news that he got into the, was he going to come on this trip to tell his dad, I got in and I'm going? Yes. believe he did know that. That was my take. Did you not think that, Robbie? Did you think that he

Starting point is 01:01:30 made that up? I don't know. It hadn't occurred to me until this moment, but he chooses after getting that news. He told his dad, and sorry, he can't. He was waiting. At this point, I would say he was waiting for the news and he made up the story about Leanne coming. Okay. I can't come with you, dad. I got to stay here. I was going to add that later he talks about setting up his dad and how much he's concerned about him. So I, because that seemed to be so, it came out with such ease when he was talking about it. I felt like he already had that in mind before. Or did he discover?

Starting point is 01:02:05 I mean, that's my question. Did he discover that? Did he decide on this trip with his dad? This is so great. I'm going to delay this a year and spend more time. So that, you've now chosen the missing scene for me. That's the missing scene. Yeah, I would love to know where he's at here.

Starting point is 01:02:20 interesting just yeah in it didn't occur to me before but right food for thought okay yeah yeah well we go to the replomat next and Bashir is reading a bunch of medical pads trying to cram his medical knowledge because he's very insecure about Elizabeth Lenz coming Dax is looking over his shoulder she joins him Dax says you know you're you seem really competitive with Lens and this is where he talks about no matter what he accomplishes that she's always going to be number one and he's always going to be second best he leaves on that note he doesn't feel resolved with it at all um dax tries to talk to him but he's going to cram cram his pads and medical knowledge so he

Starting point is 01:03:09 can talk about i guess whatever whatever comes up with this genius doctor interesting that he's still chewing on it it's not just about what happened it's about what's happening or or could happen, he's still got to prove himself. He still feels like he can or wants to. Because, Jason, I know what happens further on down the line. And what you guys have seen so far, it seems antithetical to Bashir's character. He's a brash young man who thinks he's the best.

Starting point is 01:03:38 And for him to stress over something that happened four years before, after all his successes on Deep Space Nine, it just seems we're going back to that Bashir that was naive, And I think just that part of the show I was not happy with. Do you think, though, Armin, that because he is given some clarity at the end of this episode, that this kind of monkey on his back is he can finally let go in this episode with Elizabeth Lens and what she shares about knowing that he really was the smartest if it wasn't for this little mistake? She could be the smartest.

Starting point is 01:04:19 I'm not putting down Elizabeth, but I just thought it was a side road that wasn't necessary or needed to be explained to me more. And again, if there's more than just the competition of who was the smartest in the class, then I could understand it because he acts very much like a guy who once had a crush on this girl. And now that she's back in his life and he wants to get the apartment clean. He wants to get the dinner right. He wants to, you know. But that's never mentioned.

Starting point is 01:04:49 No, it's never mentioned. That makes it worse, though, that she won up to him or in a big way. You know, I'm very competitive, but after four years, yes, I may still feel about it, but I'm not obsessed by it. I wish that in this scene, I wish that Lita had come over to try to get Bashir's attention. Yes. Couldn't even deal with it because he's so distracted by his insecurities. That would have been a nice moment. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:05:15 That's an interesting idea. I'll be honest. That's probably my only real knock on this episode. is that they didn't use Chase enough. It was like, wait a minute. You show her in the very beginning. You could have squeezed her into a bunch of other scenes in here easily, but you didn't.

Starting point is 01:05:27 So, yeah. Thank you, Garrett. I can only say this for the writer's sake. They will do that. Okay, good. We get to see more of Chase, so that's good. Yay. Yay.

Starting point is 01:05:40 Thank you. We go to the commander's office next. Dukot is called Cisco, trying to talk him out of this crazy voyage. Cisco says he has emergency equipment, he'll be safe. Duccott says, what if the marquee intercept you? What if they attack you or something? And Cisco reveals that he thinks Duccott just wants to, you know, keep him from doing it because it would prove the Bajorans, if Cisco does this trip,

Starting point is 01:06:09 it would prove Bajorans could have done this. And the Kardashians don't want that out there. So the Kardashians are trying to stop it. But Duccott finally does give up and wishes him luck. I feel like we're seeing a kind or gentler side of Duccott lately. This is this episode in particular. Well, I know Mark Alamo was always considered the fact that there was a good side to Duccott. And whenever he could display it, he would.

Starting point is 01:06:35 Well, I think he does in this episode. He balances his Kardashian mission and character with some real humanity, if I could say that about. of Cardassians. So here's another quibble that I have for just the very thing that you've been talking about. This could be a dangerous situation. That's what Dakot is telling it. Would you take your son on a dangerous situation? I thought about that too.

Starting point is 01:07:00 Yeah. And I thought there was some, even knowing what I know about what happens next, I thought there was some foreshadowing. Like, are you really going to trust your hugest enemy to tell you, to warn you? I mean, what is you really doing? Yeah, that's true. Well, he doesn't want it to happen. He's trying to protect the Bajoran history, excuse me, the Cardassian history books.

Starting point is 01:07:25 But it's also true. It is true. It's going to be a dangerous situation, and it is true, yes. Yeah. But it is going to be a dangerous situation. And I can understand why Cisco wants to put his life on the line. It really bothered me that he, as much as I love the relationship for them in this episode, I just thought I wouldn't I would ask my son for one thing are you are you willing to do this despite the dangers that might be an adult talking to an adult we could die I mean I wish that there had been a reference to Cisco saying you know I built this just the way the Bajorans did it but I also put a Starfleet escape pod in the back room you know yeah yeah so there's no danger there's no real danger here I'll either make it or if something happens I will you know the escape

Starting point is 01:08:13 Apod will be programmed to, you know, beam me out as soon as anything happens. And they do give some reference. He says, well, Kira can send a rescue ship in an hour. And Dukat's right. In space, a lot can happen in an hour. In an hour. No kidding. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:08:29 I think my takeaway for this scene is not so much about a Dakot who's kindler and gentler and concerned about Cisco's well-being. It really, to me, displayed the racism or speciesism of the Cardassians. It really just, I mean, that one, that one line from DeCon, I can't believe that a man of your intelligence would take stock in Bajoran fairy tales about ancient contact. It's like, what, the Bajoran, boo, Bajorans, Cardassian is the best of all. We're number one species. It's a very specious viewpoint. Right, which allows them to dehumanize and take over. Yeah. Debojuranize. Debojurinize. Is that what you said? Okay. Yeah. Very good. Very good. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:09:13 We cut out to space. We see this ship for the first time leaving the station. Beautiful. Beautiful. Beautiful. As it leaves, the sails are not raised yet. So my first question was, how, what is the propulsion? How is this thing moving if it's a sail ship built just like, did they give it a shove?

Starting point is 01:09:36 Did they shove it off? I don't know. I thought that too, but I thought it could be towed and then let go. the way a glider would go yeah or we've had rocket ships that were on the back of large planes and once the plane and then it just gets shoved into space yeah right maybe a rubber band yes that was the traditional bajoran propulsion launch system big rubber band i was going to go with it was propelled by hope and willpower that's what made it move and fatherhood fatherhood the sales get raised uh we cut inside

Starting point is 01:10:13 Jake gets it now. He really, he's looking out the windows. And what I wrote down that he says is, I get it, why you wanted to build this ship. He's looking out space. Cisco says, it's beautiful, isn't it? And then there's the fade out. And I actually agree with you, Robbie. I know it's a matter of time, but I wish there had been a little bit more time him appreciating the look, his point of view. stars are just the way we see stars they're not they shouldn't be moving that fast at all yeah um and he he's used to being on spaceships where the stars move very quickly or past you very quickly

Starting point is 01:10:54 the thing that we have all experienced where we've looked up in the night sky and just been awed by that presence i can understand why he says that to cisco and again it's the bonding of the father's son relationship it's a beautiful moment yeah i just wish it been a little longer that's yeah i wish it had been a little longer I also love this whole storyline of Cisco wanting to kind of get at the heart of kind of timeless exploration in a way. It's so Star Trek. It feels like, you know, DS9, now we're in late in season three. And again, I haven't seen a lot about, you know, any beyond this. But it feels like the show is really coming into its own in terms of a Star Trek feeling.

Starting point is 01:11:36 And just in so many ways, it's finding its version of Star Trek. in a really strong way at this point. Yeah. And it's been building the last season or two. But like most Star Trek shows, they kind of try to find their voice in the Star Trek Pantheon, and it takes a year or two.

Starting point is 01:11:56 It definitely did for us. It took us a couple, two, three years before we sort of found on Voyager, our voice. I feel that is happened now for DS9. With the Dominion, with all of that happening, the Gem Hadar, the founders, this kind of story, it's just running on all cylinders.

Starting point is 01:12:13 As Garrett quoted to us earlier about Ira's quote, that's exactly what Ira wanted to do was to have his own Star Trek. And there is a sloppiness to our show that is endearing after a while. Yeah. And instead of boldly going places to other planets and destinations, we boldly went into our relationships, into our psyches, into our own challenges. Yeah, so it should have been boldly going inward is what you're saying.

Starting point is 01:12:43 Yeah, yeah, yeah. And this story does. This story does with Jake and Cisco. It goes inward. A little note on the actual ship. David Livingston mentioned there was reluctance to use CGI on the show, but Peter Lawrence and finally sort of gave in. But, you know, their goal was always to use CGI to the extent that you might have a question like,

Starting point is 01:13:13 was that CGI? Like, so they didn't want to go crazy, crazy. Like, that's definitely CGI. So, but some CGI always helps. Was this ship CGI? Yes. Oh, it was the whole thing. I knew the sales were.

Starting point is 01:13:26 You could tell that was that was CGI. But I thought the ship was a model. Now, see, I didn't know. Are you talking about the interior of the ship? No, the exterior. I don't know for a fact if the actual, the vessel itself, you're saying that was practical, right?

Starting point is 01:13:42 And everything else was Cgen. I feel like that was practical. I think that. I think you're right about that. And the sales were CGI. Or CGI. Yeah. Interesting. It was beautiful. It was beautiful. Yeah. Hey, Garrett, have you been traveling this summer?

Starting point is 01:13:54 Oh my gosh. So much already. I don't always travel, but this summer's been insane. Trip after trip. You've been doing your impersonation of me. Yes. You know what doesn't belong in everyone's, epic summer plans, though? What?

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Starting point is 01:14:57 offer for first three months only. Speeds may slow above 35 gigabytes on unlimited plan. Taxes and fees extra see mint mobile for details well uh we come back from a commercial break jake's exploring the ship he asks about the bathrooms it doesn't understand how the bathroom works that is definitely deep space nine you don't talk about bathrooms on next generation we talk about bathrooms it's not the first time when it won't be the last either and cisco's like you'll figure it out i don't know if i want to i don't want to figure it out i don't know Cisco says you'll get the hang of it because jake is like how am i supposed to uh how are you supposed to uh how are you supposed to Or, because it's true.

Starting point is 01:15:34 How do you handle no gravity in the bathroom area? You're going to have to dodge. It's also like tight and there's no door and there's like, I don't, I don't know. It was barely, it's like a, it's like a sailboat bathroom. They're tiny. That is messy. Yeah. It's messy.

Starting point is 01:15:53 I don't. But it's going to go everywhere. Everywhere. Oh, okay. I like the moment, the bathroom. It's a funny moment. Here, Armands. Cisco takes a moment to really enjoy the silence and imagine how the Bajoran fleet felt.

Starting point is 01:16:08 So that was a nice moment of kind of what you were suggesting with Jake, of Cisco just enjoying the quiet when he says, you know, can you hear that? To quote Chase, it's a, it's very romantic, romantic with a big R. It's a very romantic sort of Jules Verne moment. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. All of it. This is the scene where Jake says he wants to tell his dad something, hands him a pad to read.

Starting point is 01:16:32 and he says i got it i have something to tell you but i want you to read this first read what i wrote yeah and cisco says watch the sales i'll go read and this too was slightly problematic for me i love the moment before he says that he says i have something really important i have to tell you and that would have uh started alarm bells in me if if i had a child that said yes i would want to and know what's important that you want and said i will read your book but tell me what it is that you want so that i'm not thinking about that as i'm reading your story yeah so i thought i wish that had come up after he read the story so yeah yeah that's a fair quibble i i think that's a fair quibble because it would be hard to read if if your kid has said there's something super important

Starting point is 01:17:27 but I'm not going to tell you. Yes, you are. You need to tell me. Especially at this very pivotal point of their relationship where Jake is really about to grow immensely. I have joined the McKee. I have joined them a key. Right.

Starting point is 01:17:44 Well, we cut to the infirmary. Bashir's there, nervously arranging. I love how he was like turning something. And no, that doesn't look right. It's like rearranging the furniture to make, you know, you got guests coming. I thought it was. funny. I can see Armand did not like this, but I did. I thought it was very funny. Odo comes in,

Starting point is 01:18:03 says the Lexington's here. Oddo doesn't come in. He beams in. He comes out of nowhere. Yes, he's just there. Has he been that he just, he's just there. Just there. Yeah, Bashir should have jumped. Well, these nosy neighbor moments, you know, with Dax and Odo and everyone going to Bashir, embarrassing. Chase, correct me, if I'm wrong, wasn't the infirmity right next to Odo's office? weren't they right to do you share a wall yeah I think they yes oh they did oh so he just he just went through the wall around the corner he's been he's dropping he doesn't even mention her name he just said he just says to bashir she's in quarks so everybody knows everyone knows yeah everybody knows

Starting point is 01:18:46 we go into quarks bishir's sitting there with miles he's very nervous doesn't want to go talk to Elizabeth Lenz, and Quirk comes by. He says he's made a bet that he's just going to exchange pleasantries and part, nothing, you know, nothing's going to happen. But this confuses me because later on when you collect on the bet, Armin, you're getting money. He said the odds are three to one or something and you're as if you won. But it seems like here you're saying, I bet that you're not going to. It wasn't clear to me either. I don't remember. I'm sure it's, in this script it makes sense and if I had gotten it wrong Judy Brown would have corrected me yes exactly

Starting point is 01:19:28 so I'm not quite sure what was happening there well born gave me three to one odds that you'll exchange awkward pleasantries mourn Morn gave me three to one odds that you exchange awkward pleasantries for a few minutes and say goodbye Quarks then says I'm betting that your charm will take you further okay the bet does make sense now thank you

Starting point is 01:19:51 It's with Morn Because I kind of The teeth got in the way Yes I love it So Morn's bet that they're They're not gonna So Quark's taking the side

Starting point is 01:20:03 When you see her You're gonna there's gonna be more to it than that Morn said no They're gonna just say hi and leave Correct Okay I get it She does stand up to leave Bashir sees that

Starting point is 01:20:14 He jumps up he goes to talk Or he waits for her to Come by and she passes right by him Doesn't even, he's a ghost. Yeah, it doesn't even, no. He does not exist. No, to her. Very confusing.

Starting point is 01:20:28 He does Toledo. Hello. He should have just come over, you know? Yeah. Got his attention in the wrong place. Come play dobo. Are you in the scene in the background in this one? No.

Starting point is 01:20:39 She should be. She should be actually. Thank you. Not only, not, no, you may not thank me when I'm about to say. Oh. Because she does work there. Yeah. Oh, she should be there.

Starting point is 01:20:53 Yeah, that's true. That's true. I mean, she should be there. I mean, we've hired Chase for the, for the episode. Let's put her in the scene. And probably even Lita knows that that Bishir is frustrated by his only being salutatorian. And so maybe Lita would have one of those moments like she's here. You're absolutely right, Armin.

Starting point is 01:21:15 It would have been a great idea to put her in there and for her to notice, even without dial. just to notice how Bishir's behaving and clock it. It would have added more texture to the story. So if there's a time machine that you come across Chase, you're going to go back and tell the first AD you need lead it in the background right here. I know, right? It makes sense. And then that's so hire me for another day.

Starting point is 01:21:38 And forgive me, Garrett. It's not Lou Rays' job to do that. For background? It's the directors. Oh, the direction. She's not background. She's a guest star. That's not bad.

Starting point is 01:21:47 It would have been a whole thing, though, because I was only hired for the one day. Okay. So what? Even so, even as a principal, it, it would probably be more of a writer's decision, producers decision. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. But, you know, Robbie may have better advice on that. Well, usually, if principals are not specifically scripted and seen, the A.Ds will not schedule them because they don't want to take advantage of, or assume that that character should be there. So if, if. And it hadn't. an extra day so that would change that would change your paycheck as well exactly i wasn't hired for a week i was only hired for the day i didn't know that so you okay yeah if this scene was shot on

Starting point is 01:22:30 the same day you were working you would not have been paid more money that's true she was there that's true and this scene and it would be the same rate yeah yeah considering that it was a big quark shot with a lot of people the bar shot with a lot of people in her scene it probably made sense that that was shot the same day yeah absolutely you're right Yeah, that makes sense. I hadn't thought it. I hadn't remembered. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:22:54 So you should have been there. Should have been there. Well, we're back on the sail ship. I made a note. It seems like they keep using the same space shot of the ship flying by. Two or three times, it felt like the same shot. They, you know, double dipped on that expense. That's fine.

Starting point is 01:23:11 But it was a cool shot. Yeah. I wish they had done something, even if they just digitally like blew it up a little, a little tighter. Yeah. something to change it so it didn't feel like the same but okay um Cisco finishes Jake's book in the scene at the top of the scene he tells Jake that this really shows promise he says you know it seems like you've been writing about some things that you haven't experienced yet or at least I hope you haven't and then Jake Jake teases him with a I can't talk about that um and for a

Starting point is 01:23:43 moment Cisco's fooled and Jake laughs I thought that was a really charming father son moment he's the McKee, yeah. Yes, yeah. And then, just as he's starting to tell his dad about the Pennington School, fellowship, the writing fellowship, a sail breaks. Uh-oh, crash, things go awry. We go to commercial, come back. Cisco sees that the mast has been damaged and he jettisons the broken sail,

Starting point is 01:24:12 which was a cool space shot. I like that space shot. He's starting to get worried. that they may not make it on their voyage. And Jake pipes in, well, you know, the Bajorans probably had the same kind of challenges. So this is just part of the experience. And Cisco says, you know what? You're right.

Starting point is 01:24:32 And they continue on. Let's get to work. Lay out the port sprit. I don't know. The word sprit to me kept, it just doesn't sound like a word. The port sprit. I know it is a word, but it doesn't sound like a word. That's my whole comment on that.

Starting point is 01:24:51 Sailor words are funny to me. Yeah. I don't even know what port or bow or stern. I don't even know what it is. Yes, you do. Only from the Star Trek cruise. Now, to this technology and this language as well, one of the things that I have a problem with all of Star Trek, that you've touched him on something, which is, okay, I can understand.

Starting point is 01:25:16 stand that he studied how to put the ship together. But the idea that he has the language down as well, and that he knows how to attack the sails. I mean, I know what attacking the sales means, but if you ask me to do it, I would have no idea how to do it. The fact that all of a sudden, everybody's an expert, somebody's on a ship, all of a sudden they can pilot the ship. He's on the sailboat, for one of a better term, and he knows how to do that as well. That's, that's when I sort of go, that's when it takes me out of the episode. Didn't he have,

Starting point is 01:25:51 he also had like ancient sailing tools. He had like a compass and a... Yeah, and what's the thing that you line the ship with the stars? It's a modernized version of that, but what's that called? I can't remember. They mention it in the episode.

Starting point is 01:26:06 And that too, where did he learn to do that? Where did he learn that? That's what I was going to say. Like, that is an art. That's not something you can just pick up in a minute. Well, he clearly. had a crash course from John Delancey. That's how it happens.

Starting point is 01:26:18 He knows it all. Q came over and gave him some sailing lessons. Yeah, that's it. That Q. He always just popped in. He does. We are in O'Brien's quarters right now. For the wonderful drunken singing scene that we get to see.

Starting point is 01:26:33 Love it. Oh, my goodness. How funny was this scene? I just, I don't know. There's a lot of talk about this online, about how people believe that O'Brien is secretly in love with Bashir. This is a Because of the beginning

Starting point is 01:26:48 Yes, because this is the beginnings of it This is the sort of like The awkwardness of it and everything But there's a there's a lot of a hidden subtext Going on supposedly in the I think it's as simple as Miles says You know people feel Black and white about you

Starting point is 01:27:05 They either hate you or they love you Yeah And when when Bashir says Well do you hate me or how do you feel And he says I don't hate you It's that simple to me It's not a lot of a romantic. I don't think so.

Starting point is 01:27:18 Okay. Why can't men say, I love you? Like, yeah. But do you remember that scene where, I mean, the line where Brian goes, really, now that is from the heart. And he goes, I really do not hate you anymore. That was that was awkward little. That was such a great read.

Starting point is 01:27:35 He was about to say something. It's a great reading. He was about to say something else, you know. I was wondering if it was supposed to be. I really do not hate you. And Colum put that Put that pause in there. Yeah, he separated it.

Starting point is 01:27:48 Yeah. To me, it was more of, O'Brien is, you know, not comfortable saying to another man, I love you. Period. It's just, and it's a shame. It's a comment on the toxic nature of masculinity, how it can stop men from sharing feelings and words because they're just, it's too hard. Forgive me, but it may be that he likes him as a friend, but he doesn't love him. Right. It could be that.

Starting point is 01:28:17 It could be just the obvious word is love, but he goes, no, I don't love you. I don't love you. I like you a lot. I like you. We get a long fine. You pass me the bottle. It's a bromance. It's not a romance.

Starting point is 01:28:30 Yeah. But if people want to see that, that's, you know, part of the beauty of fandom. People get to see things as they like. I saw things with Chiquote and Janeway. I was definitely a Chichote and Janeway should be together. guy. I was a J.C. Shipper. I saw it. They didn't write it, but I saw it. Well, there are clearly OB Shippers out there, O'Brien and Bashir, so it is what it is. I think they always wanted an O'Brien-Bashir relationship. And they had tried. They had tried. In my opinion, it's just my

Starting point is 01:29:05 opinion. The chemistry was never really there for that. Okay. Really? They said it. They were good actors. They did what they were asked to do. But it wasn't, forgive me for this. This is egotistic. Oh, you're going to be very controversial. I'm going to say, but it wasn't a Quark and Odo romance. Oh. Where you could see that they really genuinely had feelings for each other. I totally buy their friendship. I buy their friendship. But I think with Odo and Quark, because there was more enmity as well, that it played up. It made it richer. the subtext. It was more complicated for sure.

Starting point is 01:29:46 Yeah, and the subtext and the fun of the romance when it was there. It may be. I can't judge because I was part of it. But I will say about this scene, as actors, I think one of the more difficult tasks is to play drunk when you are sober, when you're acting. And I think they did a pretty good job because they did. Yeah, they did.

Starting point is 01:30:05 They could have made it comically drunk, but they didn't. They were like, okay, this is believable drunk. To me. to me. Yeah. Well, even at the end, when Bashir says, I'm going to go confront her. And he's sort of wobbling a little. And Miles says, no, I think you should wait.

Starting point is 01:30:20 You're too drunk. You can't even stand up. And they go back to singing. Yeah. All of that just flowed very naturally. It was nice. Back on the Bajorn ship, cruising along, Jake jumps in the hammock for the first time, almost falls out.

Starting point is 01:30:33 They set up a hammock. That seemed authentic, by the way. It seemed like Sirach was really falling out of it. He tells Sisko finally, he says, I think I'm going to turn down this fellowship. I'm not going to go to the Academy. And Pennington School. Yeah, the Pennington School. I'm not going to go.

Starting point is 01:30:53 And Cisco says, you know, when I went to Starfleet Academy, I was really homesick. I transported home. I'd beam into my living room every night. And it took about a week of going home every night. But then I started to like school. And I forgot all about it. I wasn't homesick. anymore. And he says to Jake, you know, you're going to get over it. And Jake says, it's not

Starting point is 01:31:17 homesickness. I'm worried about you. I think you should date again. You need to, to, you know, live your life and meet someone. And he mentions, I know a woman that I can set you up with. A freighter captain. A freighter captain. And they laugh. They laugh about Jake setting up his dad on a date when suddenly another crash bang crash and suddenly they're flying at warp speed so we see the stars flying by which was not on their plan yeah those were lovely tender moments though from Cisco about going home and the parallel for Jake is beautifully written yeah it is and I'm sorry to be a curmudgeon about this but I went that doesn't make sense it doesn't make sense if he's in San Francisco and he gets out uh yeah there's three there's a three

Starting point is 01:32:10 hour difference between San Francisco and Oh, that's true. Yeah. That aside, it is a beautiful scene. Yeah. It just, I just might cocked my head when I went, well, I don't think they could do that, but okay. We're at warp. How did we get at warp on a solar sail ship?

Starting point is 01:32:29 Exactly. But we're flying at warp and then suddenly it stops. Powers down, they say. Main powers offline, which I didn't realize they had power, but I guess they do have some power. Well, they had to keep the oxygen flowing, I suppose. Yeah, that's true. But they've lost powers down and the compass is broken. Sextent. I think it's called a sextant. There you go. The sextant. Yeah. Yeah. The thing that he learned how to use in 24 hours. Right. But that thing looked pretty sturdy, but from just one little bump, obviously, it's not that durable. It totally

Starting point is 01:33:03 fell apart. I was like, okay. Well, he built it in a week, so. Yeah. He built the ship in a And then he had 30 minutes to build a sextant. So he didn't really put a lot of time into it. Okay. Must be it. I did like that he pulled out a paper map. You know, we're so used to seeing computers and screens. And a diagram.

Starting point is 01:33:22 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that was nice in keeping with the whole Jules Verney thing. He sees that there's a tacky on Eddie through the sector. And it could have accelerated them faster than light speed. So it could have pushed them to warp speed. And they could be far off course. They don't know where they've ended up, no idea.

Starting point is 01:33:42 They even try to get a hold of DS9. They can't get through. That was scary. Yeah, that was. How convenient. How convenient. Yeah. And now they're farther because of the warp.

Starting point is 01:33:54 Yeah. They don't know where they are. They're somewhere lost in space. And Jake's starting to get worried here. He asks if they're going to come help. And Ben tries to reassure him. Yeah, sure. I wasn't very reassured by that, sure.

Starting point is 01:34:09 No. did not seem enthusiastic. No. They left that to Avery. The writers left that to Avery, and I thought he did that well. There was both trepidation and support. And reassurance.

Starting point is 01:34:20 Yeah. And reassurance. Well, we go to Corks. The sheer finally works up the nerve, the courage to go, talk to Elizabeth Lenz. But she doesn't even recognize him. She says she always thought he was an Andorian

Starting point is 01:34:33 ever since a friend pointed out somebody at a party. He's like, what? It turns out it's a friend of Bashir's or something. Like Bashir, he was walking with Bashir at the party. So when someone said, that's Bashir, they pointed in the direction of Bashir and the Andorian. And Elizabeth thought that Bashir was the Andorian. Very funny. That's funny.

Starting point is 01:34:55 Very funny. He asked about her adventures on Lexington. And to his surprise, she says, it's super boring. It's basically just a charting mission. And turns out that she's very jealous of his post on DS9. And she's very impressed with all his work on the Bajorin T-cell study that he's been doing in particular. And the scene ends with him inviting her to come look at the data at the infirmary. Oh, they do talk about speech.

Starting point is 01:35:25 Sorry, I skipped over that part. Yeah, because that's the, that's because the thing is when she says, I didn't realize that that was you. He's like, well, didn't you watch my speech? Yeah. She's like, no, I was backstage rehearsing mine. And so she never saw him at the graduation ceremony, which is very funny, too. Yeah. This is a reminder of assumptions we all make, right?

Starting point is 01:35:46 We think we know the story about a situation. And we have some, you know, response to that. We're angry or we're happy or whatever. And then you find out later on, oh, I was totally did not know that's what really happened. Yeah. And we beat ourselves up for missed opportunities when really it worked out. beautifully to our benefit all along. It did. I wish he had

Starting point is 01:36:11 had a moment where the writers might have saying, you know what? Yeah, it worked out to my benefit that I didn't. Because he did get the better. She tells him you got the better position. And after three seasons, he should say yes, this was, this was exactly what I hoped it would be.

Starting point is 01:36:27 So it recouped it for him. Yeah. And the writers got to get in the pre-ganglionic fiber again when Elizabeth says, you gave me quite a run for my money. If it hadn't been for that pre- anglionic fiber and Bashir's like, you know about that? So again, they get to say it. Over hope again.

Starting point is 01:36:43 So good. We also get Quark and Morin up on the balcony at the end where Quark says, I believe the odds were three to one. Three to one. You owe me. Give me my money. And of course, Morn is speechless at that. Yes, of course.

Starting point is 01:36:58 Back on the Jules Verne ship, Cisco's repairing the sextant, possibly. Sexton, yeah. And he wants to know about the woman that Jay wants to introduce him to Jake says she's a freighter captain and Ben says he'll meet her on one condition and he takes Jake's hand he says I'll do this on one condition that you go to Bennington and he holds it really tight I love that moment that sort of I don't know there was something about holding his hand really tight and Jake um says no that he says I I won't promise that because I heard that you can only write about things that you've experienced firsthand.

Starting point is 01:37:40 And DS9 is a great place to experience adventures. And I thought that was just a nice moment. It was. It was. All of that relationship, all of that writing, all that acting was just superb. Superb. Yes. It just took this episode to a really nice place in my heart.

Starting point is 01:38:00 I really loved that relationship and seeing the two of them bonding and loving. loving each other and what I knew to be the off-camera relationship emulated on-camera. I would also say for the show, for DS9, it feels like there's a really authentic optimism and positivity that there's been so much conflict often in the past, that there's something about the romance with the capital R of this story and the performances and the optimism of Jake saying you know DS9 is where I want to be there's a there's a

Starting point is 01:38:41 positivity to that that I don't know that I've experienced quite that vividly on your show yet and this episode for me really captured that that this is a great place to be I don't know if that was I were doing it if it was Renea Chavaria I don't know who brought that perspective but I'm

Starting point is 01:38:59 starting to feel it to go back to what I said before it feels like this is exactly where we want to be these are the people we want to be with, it just feels like it's jelling in a great way. That's really, really cool. I know Renee had young children at the time. I know that Ira had teenage son. I think Jesse was a teenager at the time.

Starting point is 01:39:19 So they're drawing upon those real experiences that they have at home. Yeah. And the writer's thoughts on writing were also really lovely. I think the you can't write what you don't know. You must write what you do know. And there was one point, I think, where Jake said something about, or maybe it was Cisco who said, it's not about thinking about writing, it's doing it. Just like you sit and you do it. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:39:49 So, and that's such a, it just felt like they were giving a little of their own experience in that. I could hear their voices in it. It's cool. Yeah. So you were talking about positivity, Robbie, which is a nice segue from my comment, which is, is there some negativity around? freighter captains because there was definitely something when Jake says, well, she's a freighter captain. And Cisco answers, a freighter captain. He puts a little bit of spin on that comment. I won't date a freighter. Is that like a officer? Yes, a bit of classism. I caught it too. Yeah. There was a reference to

Starting point is 01:40:24 Tom Paris when he had been, you know, kicked out of Starfleet. And then he was a freighter pilot for a little while. and then he was with join the monkee like it's a it's a definitely you know step below okay starfleet officer also who do we know to be a freighter captain han solo you know you want me to have in a relationship with someone like that uh which is antithetical to everything that cisco stands for he he likes organization he likes teamwork he likes that frider captain is is a maverick and And that seems like a strange idea. Talk about messy. Right.

Starting point is 01:41:07 Talk about messy. And I won't go into what I'm about to say, but this will pay off. Oh, do. Do. All I'll say is this will pay off. Okay. Okay. All right.

Starting point is 01:41:18 Well, Dukot shows up now. Three Kardashian ships arrive, and he congratulates them and says, you made it, congratulations. You made it to the Kardashiansians. Grudgingly. Yes, begrudgingly. Yeah. And they realize, he explains the Tachian on Eddie.

Starting point is 01:41:33 must have blown them past the De Norris belt at warp speed. They skipped right over it. Yeah, that was a problem for me. Was it? Yeah, what's the conflict? The conflict is not getting to Cardassian space. The conflict is getting through the De Norius belt. Oh, yeah, we just skipped over that.

Starting point is 01:41:51 The whole episode is about how difficult it's going to be to get through the DeNorius belt. And then somehow they just avoid it. They just, it's gone. It's just gone. They blew right past it. Yeah, they blew right past it. And how did they get to work? Warp speed? It was this...

Starting point is 01:42:04 Yeah, it was the solar panels. The Takion Eddie. Yeah. It seems to have, we have more, we have more edges. We have more surface than most ships or something, which one, wait a second, wait a second. We've seen the runabouts. They're not any bigger than that ship is. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:42:19 Maybe Takion eddies react differently on ships comprised of wood and brass. Maybe that's what it is. That's it. That is it. Okay. With the captain in it. With the captain in it. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:42:30 Well, to use like a sailing metaphor, what, it's like, If you get out in the Gulf Stream in a boat, the Gulf Stream carries you along, you know, on its path. So if you're heading in the general direction, you just take your boat into the Gulf Stream and then whoosh, you get flung up where you want to go. At warp speed? Yeah, faster than the rest of the Atlantic Ocean. But I went fishing once with my father in the Gulf Stream. We went, took his boat and went out to the Gulf Stream. And it feels like a river out there.

Starting point is 01:43:05 You can feel the ocean movement, the currents. So I wonder if this Tachian Eddie was like the Gulf Stream and sort of grabbed them and took them around the DeNoros belt. I'm not denying that they did it. I just felt really. But dramatically. I just thought, you cheated me. You cheated me.

Starting point is 01:43:22 You kept telling me that this was going to be difficult to get through the DeNorius belt. And then we just avoid it? Yeah. It's just gone? They warped right through it. Yeah. This final scene, though, is very funny. because I find the Cardassian government completely pivots.

Starting point is 01:43:38 Yes. They're like, okay, well, all right, it's no longer fairy tale. So we're going to go ahead and we're going to shoot fireworks out and celebrate this. And we're also going to let them know that their arrival coincides with the discovery here in Cardassi of an ancient crash site, a site that our archaeologists believe contains a remnants of one of the Bajorne vessels. Yes. And so, again, my feeling is they've always known about the crash site. Oh, absolutely. ever revealed it until Cisco made this journey.

Starting point is 01:44:06 And now they've got a pivot and go, oh, yeah. So very funny. So those ships were just out there waiting for them, or is that where they're stationed at the edge of space? They probably picked up on sensors that there was, yeah. And they were probably tracking it, I would think, because they didn't want this. Well, you know DeKat was tracking him the entire time.

Starting point is 01:44:26 He was like, okay, what's he had now? Chase's question is good. I can understand the ships tracking them. I can understand. I mean, they just entered. Cardassian space. I can understand it that they've got patrols, patrolling Cardassian space. But the fact that Duccott is on one of them, that begs the question.

Starting point is 01:44:44 Yeah, it's underhanded. But wait a minute. Was Dakot actually radio? Was he on a screen from his office? We don't know that. Thank you, Garrett. We don't know that. Maybe.

Starting point is 01:44:54 That's true. Yes. Okay. There we go. Well, there we go. Fireworks, celebrations. And Bajorans did it. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:45:02 Yeah. There's the end of our episode. We did our episode. Woo. What would your theme slash more of this episode be, Robbie? Mine is the romance with the capital R really got me in this. I loved it. I thought it was great. So my lesson is never lose your belief in the impossible.

Starting point is 01:45:27 Okay. I like that. Really good. Armin, what do you have? My theme is fate loves the fearless. If you're fearless, fate will provide opportunities. Well said. I like that.

Starting point is 01:45:44 How about you, Chase? For me, it would have to be seize the moment. You know, for Jake and Cisco, it was one of those things. For Lita, it was one of those things to just go do it. You know, he's a doctor. I'm a Davo girl. There's talk about classism, but why not? Why not give it a shot?

Starting point is 01:46:07 And then Cisco's whole journey with this impossible wood chip out in space. Give it a try. If you don't, you'll never know what you could have done. Carpe Diem, yeah. Yeah. So he's the moment. I like it. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:46:26 Yeah, for me, it has more to do with the father, son. relationship. So I really think the lesson here is for all of those parents out there to not gloss over those young years with your kids and really spend as much time as you can with that child or children that you have. Because they're not kids for very long. And once they fly the coop, they're gone. So it's... He's the moment. Like Chase says. Yeah, like Chase. Seize the moment. Seize the parent moment. Especially with the parent moment. Yeah. With your kids. Child moat issues, yeah.

Starting point is 01:47:01 What is our Patreon poll theme moral of the episode winner? The Patreon poll theme slash moral of this episode, as submitted by Andrew Cano, is the journey can be more meaningful than the destination. Hmm. Yeah, kind of a Voyager theme there in a way. That's really cool. Mm-hmm. Thank you, everyone, for tuning in to our recap and discussion of the episode Explorers.

Starting point is 01:47:27 And, of course, thank you to Armand for being here. And a huge thank you for Chase Masterson for joining us as well. Thank you, Chase. So much for having me. It was really fun. I can see why this show is a big success because you guys, no, I mean, it's a blast to hang out with you guys. Join us next time when we will be recapping and discussing the episode Family Business with Armand yet again. And for all of our Patreon patrons, please stay tuned for your bonus material.

Starting point is 01:48:00 So, you know, but uh, Thank you. I'm going to be B. B.

Starting point is 01:48:08 B. B. B. B. B. Bhop B. B

Starting point is 01:48:16 B. B. B. B. B. I'm going to be able to be.

The Delta Flyers - Explorers

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