The Delta Flyers - Faces

Episode Date: July 27, 2020

The Delta Flyers is a weekly Star Trek: Voyager rewatch and recap podcast hosted by Garrett Wang and Robert Duncan McNeill. Each week Garrett and Robert will rewatch an episode of Voyager starting at the very beginning. This week’s episode is Faces. Garrett and Robbie recap and discuss the episode, and share their insight as series regulars.Faces:Lt. Torres is divided into two beings when a Vidiian scientist kidnaps her and Lt. Paris for use in his experiments to cure the phage.We want to thank everyone who makes this podcast possible, starting with our Executive producers Megan Elise, and Rebecca Jayne, and our Post Producer Jessey Miller.Additionally we could not make this podcast available without our Co- Executive Producers Ann Marie Segal, Philipp Havrilla, Jason M Okun, Kelton Rochelle, Stephanie Baker, Stephen Smith, Sarah A Gubbins, John Tufarella, Brian Barrow - The Destination in Louisville KY, Chris Knapp, Daniel Adam, Eve Mercer, James Hildebrand, Matthew Gravens, Mary Jac Greer, Marie Burgoyne, Michelle Zamanian, Jason Self, Megan Hurwitt, James Zugg, Mike Gu, and, Shannyn Bourke.And our Producers  Col Ord, Aithne Loeblich, AJ Provance, Ann Harding, Barbara Beck, Breana Harris, Captain Nancy Stout, Catherine Goods, Charity Ponton, Chloe E, Chris Tribuzio, Claire Deans, Craig Sweaton, Crystal Komenda, Dave Grad, Deborah Schander, Father Andrew Kinstetter, Gay Kleven-Lundstrom, Gregory Kinstetter, Heidi McLellan, James Amey, James G. Jones, Captain Jeremiah Brown, Josh Johnson, Karel Hartlieb, Katherine Hedrick, Katie Johnson, Katherine Puterbaugh, Kelley Smelser, Laura Swanson, Liz Scott, Maggie, Mary O'Neal, Matthew Cutler, Mike Schaible, Máia W, Nathanial Moon, Nevyn Cross, Rich Gross, Richard Banaski, Ryan, Steph Dawe Holland, Terence Thang, Thomas Melfi, Utopia Science Fiction Magazine, Warren Stine, York Lee, Dat Cao, Debra Defelice, Evette Rowley, Louis P, Oliver Campbell, Eleanor Lamb, Peter Patch and, Stephen Riegner. Thank you for your support!Our Sponsors:* Check out Mint Mobile: https://mintmobile.com/TDFSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-delta-flyers/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Hey, everyone. Welcome to the Delta Flyers. We are a weekly podcast that discusses episodes of Star Trek Voyager in chronological order. Your two fantastic hosts along this podcast journey are myself, Garrett Wong, aka Ensign Harry Kim, and Robert Duncan McNeil, who portrayed Lieutenant Tom Paris. If you are interested in either an extended version of this podcast or the extended video version of this podcast, both of which include added bonus segments. Please check out our Patreon page at patreon.com forward slash the Delta Flyers and sign up to become a patron. Very good. Very good. I'm just, it's it's you're getting more and more confident. In fact, you're getting so confident you said the fantastic host.

It did. Yeah. You're feeling you're feeling very, confident about this. I am. I'm still reading it off of my phone, but I am, I am feeling more confident. The day that I memorize this and don't even have to even even look at anything, I'm going to be super uber-duber confident. But it's a mouthful, so I don't want to mess it up. No, it's good. It's good to have, I think, I think our, we're finally getting into the flow of this thing now that we've been, you know, what episode is this? Like 14 or 15? Something like that. Whatever it is. We're like almost, you know, getting close to the of the first season. We're definitely in a groove. Yeah. We are fantastic hosts. And you're super

fan. Well, you're super fantastic because you're about to get a Winnebago. So I think that's pretty I know. It's coming soon. It's coming soon. Yeah, Robbie showed me during our little production meeting not too long ago, Robbie showed me some pictures of the interior of this, this Winnebago Motor Home. What is the name of it? What do you call it a motorhome? You can call it a RV. An RV, some people call them a coach. Some people, but motorhome feels like the right thing. Does RV stand for recreational vehicle? Yeah, recreational vehicle, but an RV could be a trailer that you tow.

It could be a, you know, a Volkswagen camper. It could be all kinds of things. So a motor home, motorhome suggests the, you know, this is a nice one. I mean, it's not, it's kind of in the middle. of sizes and right right you mean it's not it's not your basic right it's a nice motor home and I'm excited we get it on Thursday yeah so you in terms of like you know tears this is not the

AMC pacer and this is not the Rose Royce of cars you know no you're you're you're in the Ford Explorer of Ford Explorer of RVs it's just like yeah it's good right down the middle but looking at the interior I'm telling telling you, it looks very posh to me compared to what we had as trailers. And we had big, big, big trailers when we had nice trailers. We had nice trailers. We had very nice trailers that literally, let's see, we could have slept. Wasn't there like a bunk bed in ours? Didn't we have like a bunk bed in the bed area? No, sorry, it was two bed. It was two single beds, okay, in the sleeping area. The couch pulled out into like a queen or a double bed, right? And then there was a little kitchenette area. but that one we had carpet and we had like linoleum that was where the kitchen area was so it was kind of that plasticy kind of eh and there was a shower obviously a little tiny shower and a little toilet um but yours has kind of a shower did you ever shower did you ever like use the shower there i feel like i did like with makeup when we would have like burn makeup or things and i would just

jump in or even like stick my head under just to get dirt off if we had dirt I think I may have used it only once. I remember the transpo guys saying like, if you need a shower, we need to top off the tank for you because they had to fill up the water tank for us. And so sometimes that thing would be low, right? So I didn't really rely on it.

It wasn't that great of a shower, you know. But I did sleep in that trailer. I did sleep on it a mini-cadneux. I know you've mentioned that. Against the law, of course. You did. You broke, yeah. Yeah, I broke some laws.

Okay. So congratulations. to you on get on the very excited it's it's it's it's an exciting sense of uh upcoming freedom to travel and adventure like in my head this whole RV thing this motor home thing it's going to be an adventure especially during this time where I'm not working because of uh COVID and yeah um you know we may not be going back to work for a couple of months so yeah still we've been off for a couple of months. So, yeah, it's a nice way to travel and sort of control my environment, be safe, not get on a plane, all those things. You know what? I'm peeking and I see a T-shirt

and I just want to, oh, look at that. For those of you are just listening on our podcast, Robbie just sort of tilted his camera down towards his, the Delta Flyers crew t-shirt. Yes. Our merch store is currently up now. love this t-shirt, the quality. It's so comfortable. This is somebody that you've used before. And I love this design. Rebecca Sims, our amazing graphic designer and artiste. Also, my girlfriend. Rebecca designed this shirt, and it's wonderful. I love it. And we got a bunch of different designs that she's done. She did the caricatures of us on the website. Yeah. Yeah. This is like real official thing we're doing.

The delta flyer.org, I think that's where the address is. Is it? Dot org? Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. It's so new. I might have just given out the wrong address, but we'll double check when we go off and do the rewatch. This week's episode, Robbie, is called Faces. Yes. Yes, I'm excited about this.

I'm so excited. I couldn't even sleep last night. I was turning, tossing. you know, I just, just because, you know, we're going to have a special guest on later, which is great. We're having Brian Markinson. Faces reminded me of the title of the film, Face Off. Oh, remember that movie? Interesting.

And there are some similarities there, too. Well, yeah, there are some similarities. So then I did a little Googling to see who predated who. Face Off. No, no. Really? Face Off came out in 97. This episode that we filmed a.

faces, we probably filmed in, I'm guessing, early 95, okay? So I'm wondering, and then it premiered probably during 95 as well. So I'm wondering if the writer of Faceoff was watching this episode and thought, I can do something. Let's say, yeah. And so there we go. Maybe Face Off was born because of Faces. And it does have the whole, you know, in face off of taking off. a face and surgically, you know, opening it to somebody else's a surgeon, right, right. Do you remember who directed that film? That was, wasn't that, I want to say it was, John Wu? John Wu, yeah, I think it was John Wu.

Yeah, I think it might have been too. The great John Wu. Yeah, that's a great movie. Yeah, you might be right. Maybe there was an inspiration. I do feel like Star Trek, all the different series of Star Trek, have been inspiration for a lot of screenwriters and television. writers and actors.

I mean, I worked with Christian Slater on a half-hour comedy years ago. He was such a fan of the original series, and he was in one of the movies as a young actor, but he was such a fan, huge Star Trek fan. He bought the captain's chair from one of the movies or something, and he had it at home, and then he told the people in the half-hour comedy were doing, he wanted to put the chair in the show. Like, he wanted his character to be a Star Trek fan, so they had it. added on the set. It was amazing. It inspires a lot of people this series. So maybe it inspired

face off. Yes. I definitely think that's the case. Have you ever met John Wu? No. But this guy, I'm telling you right now, I've been a huge fan of his forever. And I've gone to film festivals before where his films were being showcased and where he was a guest speaker. One of the most oh God, generous, humble directors I've ever met. And so he gets up after the film screens and he says, I'm going to do my John Wu impersonation. He has a very low, gravelly voice. And he says, thank you all for coming to watch my film.

I want to tell everyone that I spend a lot of time in pre-production working on this. And if you have any questions about this film or filmmaking, there is an address, email address at the end of your program, you can see. You can go ahead and email me and I will answer you. And I'm thinking, what? So I'm jokingly thinking I would email John Wu and say, Dear John, I'm having problems with my girlfriend right now.

What do you recommend? Any questions at all? Yeah, any question. And he's like, well, if your girlfriend is not paying enough attention to you, maybe you should move on there plenty of fish in this sea. So don't think that this girl is the only one for you. So then I really, you know, got into this whole thing. I'm like, this guy's amazing.

So I had that meeting. And then the bottom line is, you know, he's like, my children watch Star Trek. They like you. Wow. And he's like, but these are the dates we are shooting. Do you think you have the time to do this? We would need this much time from you. And I was like, well, and you know how much time we put into Voyager.

We had no free time. We had like a week off, literally, so we couldn't make, we couldn't make the schedule work. Yeah. So that John Wu, Gerard Wong connection never happened, unfortunately. That's amazing that he's that open to civilians or anyone. No, to anyone, Robbie. And he said literally, if you have any questions about this film or anything to do with filmmaking. Oh, and the best thing was this, someone yelled out.

He goes, you're the master. I mean, you're the genius or something like that. He goes, oh, please, no, I am still a student of film. You know, I am still learning. Yeah, please do not call me the master. I am learning still. And I'm like, no, you're the master to me. So very humble.

All right. So on that note, for those of you who are our Patreon patrons, please stay tuned while we play a game called What Do We Remember? Everybody else listening to our podcast, Robbie and I are going to go rewatch this episode Faces and come right back with our analysis and our special guests. What do you remember from Paces? Did David Livingston direct this one, too? I feel like David Livingston directed it.

No? I don't think so. Oh, gosh. I'm not making, this is not a very good start, is it? That's okay. Wow. David Livingston didn't direct. Are you sure?

Okay. I'm pretty sure. Well, I guess the reason I think is David Livingston is because I do remember, like, visually, it was, there was a lot of cool shots. I just looked it up. It's directed by our favorite German. Oh, Rick Colby. Well, Rick also shoots very cool shots. David Livingston always did weird stuff.

That's probably why I thought it was him. Yeah. Okay, Rick Colby directed it. Oh, that's good. That's good. That's good. Rick was always great for our cast. He really was the actors loved when he directed.

He was our first director with the pilot. So, yeah, I remember it was a big episode for Roxanne. Yeah. I feel like, who wrote this? It couldn't have been Brian Fuller because he wasn't on the show yet. No. But it was somebody like that. It was like, it was the first episode, shockingly enough, that I remember, like, a lot of conversations ahead of shooting it.

Okay. I remember like Roxanne was talking. talking a lot about it, maybe because there was test for her to play herself for double, you know, he had to do some doubling, right? Didn't she have to do like, oh yeah. And she took her makeup, like she had no makeup in one and full cling on in the other, right? Yep, that's right. Yeah, so you remember this one pretty well. I remember that. I don't remember what I did. Well, I tell you what I do remember. Because Brian Markinson is a friend of mine in real life, I know that I had scenes with Brian because he told

me. Yeah. He told you that when you were directing girlfriends. Yeah, he was like, yeah, I was on Voyager. He was guest started on Voyager. I was like, oh, wow, what, what episode? He goes, a couple episodes of it. Faces was the big one. He goes, and I had scenes with you. Like, we had scenes together, big scenes. And I was like, oh. So I know that because Brian told me, but not because I remember it on my very big boy self. No. I did not remember my big boy self. He's like, we shared scenes together. We had milkshakes off camera.

Do you remember that? I mean, God. I really have, whatever. There must be like a vitamin or an herb that I could take for my brain memory. If anybody out there has memory herb suggestions. And when I say herb, don't go with the, oh, we're going to get more weed or maybe less weed. No, I don't need any of that. None of that joke.

But if there's a vitamin that'll help my brain stuff, please, you know, message us. You're a car, well, you know cars fairly well, I think. I know you know motorcycles, but what is that thing that you, that's, is it the inhibitor chip? Something that stops cars from going faster. Yeah. You have that in your head. Yeah, I have a memory inhibitor. A memory inhibitor chip in your head.

I think I do. That's what I'm thinking. Yeah, I remember this being, I mean, if you read the Netflix little tiny blur, but it's the shortest one of all. Paris, Torres, and Durst are imprisoned by the Videans, period. So that's it. So it's very quick. Paris, Torres and Ders. Oh, there you go.

Prisysed by the Videans. So that's Brian. All three of us are in prison, and then they take her an experiment on her or something. Yeah, yeah. But just this was a huge episode for her. I remember watching it when it premiered on 10. television and just sitting there and thinking, wow. Great opportunity for her.

A tour to force, a tour to force performance for Roxanne Biggs Dawson. And I just, to me, I just, I remember really getting into this episode. Yeah, I do too. I'm just looking forward to rewatching it now to to remember all the nitty gritty and all the details, you know, that I've forgotten since then. So that's it. Yeah, I remember the, um, the makeup was. I'd never seen anything quite like it because they take all these different aliens that they catch along, you know, out in the Delta Quadrant and they steal their body parts, right?

They harvest their body parts. And so I remember that makeup for the Vidians was just really one of a kind. I'd never seen anything like it. And that was very cool. Yeah. You know, and as far as alien adversaries, you know, go, these guys, they're right up there. You know, with the Borg and with Species 8472, with everything else that we encounter, these guys are right up there because, number one, they're very menacing or just difficult to

look at with all the crazy stuff going on, number one. Number two, there's so much more advanced than we are, right? Their civilization has been around so much longer than Earth has, and really their technology is leaps and bounds ahead of what we have. And so that that also makes them so dangerous because you don't know what can happen, right? Because we saw the prior episode. All he did was aim of his little phaser at Neelix, and Neelix's lungs were gone. He just beamed his lungs out in 2.2 seconds, and it was just like, what?

So very scary, you know. The horror movie sort of element of this is also kind of something that gets you to. so but in a good way you know yeah definitely you're glued to the screen yeah okay all right let's go watch let's go watch it and then we're going to come back here brian markinson is going to join us and we're going to recap what we see all right guys we are back from rewatching the episode faces and let's just give a round of applause to our guest mr brian markinson yes thank you for being here Good job. So happy to be here. Harry, good job in that episode. We have durst. Yeah, it was Durst slash Soulon. Sulaan, exactly. Szilon, chief surgeon of the Videon Solidarity. You went to

a lot of medical school to get there. A lot of medical school, exactly. Your parents must have been so proud. They were. Look, do you see everything's cleared up, a little bit of clear seal? And that's Just a little cream. No more phage. You look amazing. So this episode, just to recap, this story was by Jonathan Glastner and Ken Biller, teleplayed by Ken Biller, whether he's credited as Kenneth Biller.

I have a question, Robbie. Was Ken Biller on the writing staff that early? He was a story editor. He was a protege. I think he was a protege of Michael Pillar, who was one of the creators of our show. Michael had come from CBS Development. He was an executive at CBS. Michael Pillar, and then went into writing from the executive side of things.

Ken Biller took a similar path. Ken was working as an executive, maybe CBS, but I know he had been an executive and then started writing. And I think Michael sort of mentor him a bit. So he was a story editor the first season. Okay, got you. He became the executive producer showrunner by season seven. Correct.

But this season, first season, he was a. He was at the very very beginning. Yes, a lower on the totem pole for the bottom. He was at the bottom rung of writers. He's the story editor, okay. This episode was directed by Vinish Colby, otherwise known as Rick Colby. It was not David Livingston like I thought before we watched it.

It's Rick Colby. It's Rick Colby. Who has since passed away. I don't know if we talked about that. I don't think we have. Did you know that, Brian? No, I did. Yeah.

He was a lovely guy. He was a lovely guy. really was. For those that haven't seen it in a while, Faces is an episode where we're still stuck in the Delta Quadrant. We're trying to head home. And an away team of Durst, played by Brian Markinson, Tom Paris and Bologna Torres, has stopped to explore some mountains or something, I think she says. And they've gone to a different part of that planet. And now they're coming back to get us, but when they come back, there are no signs of them. They can't find any life signs on the planet where they left them. And in fact, the tunnels where they had left them

have completely changed. So they're baffled. They're like, how can the tunnels change? Anyway, what turned out is down deep in this planet are Videans hiding out. They have, as we learned in earlier episodes, Videans have incredible technology, technology that can create force fields that change tunnels. So that's what they're doing. They're hiding out down there. And there is a chief surgeon, Sulan, who was also played by Brian Markinson, who is from the very beginning, we see that Bala Torres is a prisoner, but she has been split. Her genetic makeup has been split into, and she's full cling on is one part of her, and there's physically another part that's full human, like Jekyll and Hyde, two sides of the story. And so,

Sulan is looking for a cure for phage and thinks Klingons may have it, which it looks like they do. And he not only thinks she's heroic and amazing, but he starts to kind of fall in love with her, have some feelings for her. In the meantime, Paris and Durst are trying to survive. And they bring Durst in because Sulaan has fallen in love with Bala, but he thinks he's too ugly and wants to be more attractive so he takes durst's face puts it on his face and he's like now do you love me balana and it's gross which we'll talk about all that um and uh and so he's heartbroken because his his really smart idea to steal somebody's face and put it on so the girl will like him which we've all done let's admit it um have we

Wait, inside voice. Chacote and the captain come up with a plan. Chacote, with the doctor's help, takes on a Vodian disguise and is beamed in in a very complicated sciencey way, beamed in quickly to rescue everybody, and there's a little shootout, and they are ultimately rescued. And the big part of the story is Bologna dealing with the two sides of her personality, coming to terms of accepting who she is, even the Klingon part,

which she's always kind of rejected emotionally most of her life. So there's some great performances by Roxanne and Brian, and it's a really an exciting episode. So that's anything else to add there. Well, I love how you conveniently leave out everything that Kim does to help out in this. He's the one that finds the micro fractures. He helps a lot in the science of it. He's the one that comes up with the transconders.

Breadcrums, right. And the breadcrumbs part of it, Robbie, that is Kim's warp particles because he comes up with this whole, you know, subspace trans- Well, he goes, yeah, he goes, breadcrumbs! And the Kevin's like, pardon me? Pardon me, Mr. Kim? I want to draw a light to your interesting pronunciation

of Brian's character in this. You pronounced it similar to Disney's Moulon, and you called him Sulaan, and I think it's... Slon. I think... Sulaan, I think. A boy named Sue, I mean, Sue. Sue Lawn.

Sue or Sue Ann. Sue Ann. Sue Ann. The L is silent. I think I'm from the South, so I give it a little extra. You get it. Sioux Lawn. Su Lawn.

I don't think I ever said it. No. You did say it once. You said it in the beginning. You said I'm, you said, I am Sulon. That's right. I am Sulon. I think I said Sulon.

You did have a very theatrical accent, though, in this, which I was very impressed with, the two characters, and I thought it was really well done. What was your experience or exposure to Star Trek before you were cast in this role? Well, like everybody who was a child of the 60s, as a kid, I saw the original series, and was a fan, but not.

I don't think I would have considered myself a Trekkie. And then Rick and the gang would bring me in. I did an episode called Homebound from NextGen. And so I had, they knew me, they would bring me in. I think I might have auditioned for Neelix when they were casting this originally. they would bring me in for, you know, like anything, anybody that they could cover in prosthetics. So I got to play those roles, being a, you know, Robbie and I come from a similar background. We're New York theater boys.

And so, yeah, so that's, that's what it was. But the whole Shakespeare, the more standard, it had to do with the fact that, that I was, you know, I had false teeth. I was in a plastic bag for all intents and purposes. I was blind. I had opaque contact lenses in. And so I just, you had to over-enunciate. It was difficult to hear myself.

So I just sort of pretended I was doing serenone. Did you have to loop or do ADR for that role because of the mouth of the teeth and things? I don't recall, I don't think I had to do much. I mean, those guys, they're such pros. And there was not much. I don't know how much looping you had to do. I don't believe I did.

I was, I did have a tendency, maybe I did, because I had a tendency with those teeth in after a while. Yeah. You have to sort of spark a little bit. Extra spit. I wondered about you. I wondered about Roxanne when she was in the Klingon because of the big teeth. Yeah, you could tell that too.

Yeah. And normally, there is kind of a bit of a, like a, the spit, you know, you can tell when someone's got mouthpieces in. It didn't, you were, your enunciation was great. The, the speech was very clean. And same with Roxanne. That's why I wondered if you guys both had to ADR quite a bit of that. No, I don't think we did. And I, you know, I said to Rick when I came in, because I was, it was weird.

because I was cast as Sulan. What dirt, like I read for Sulan back for Cephexas because they needed, they knew they needed to cast a guy that they were gonna take his face. They were gonna take his face. Yeah. So yeah, so, so there you go. I just, I asked him first if it was,

if it was cool to sort of take that. Yeah. You know, and he was an educated guy. yeah for sure so why not I I thought it was wonderful I thought it in terms of status you know sometimes when I was when I when I when I acted and when I direct you know I use status as a tool to play with with characters who's high status who's low status and something about that that archetype of the educated surgeon you know head surgeon all of those things with the language the way you were speaking it.

It sort of gave him some status and some import that I thought was a great choice. Well, thanks. I'm glad it came across because I was deaf and blind for, I was Helen Keller for a lot of it.

I did one episode that comes up in future seasons threshold was the name of it, which is one of the most hated episodes of all Star Trek. But I turned into a lizard and then I kidnapped the captain, turned her into a lizard, and we had lizard babies, and then we abandoned them on the planet. But anyway, I had the same, like, completely covered like you did. In fact,

because I was turning into this lizard in real time on the show, they put these bladders in the prosthetic so that the head would go. That's wicked. They had tubes that went to the floor, so Not only was that thing on my face, but all I heard was, like, that's what I heard. I couldn't hear the other actors. I had to look at their lips because all I heard was these airbags going, yeah, all that acting school, all that training, and really you're just trying to be heard.

And a quick shout out to the great Michael Westmore because, I mean, I got to, you know, that was very exciting for me to be able to sit in a chair and have them throw plaster on my head for three hours. Yeah. And he was there doing it. He's a master, yeah. A legend, yeah, yeah.

Just to elaborate a little more on what you said earlier, Brian, about you had that experience with TNG. There's definitely a group of actors that were brought in to constantly audition for all the Trek projects, such as Tim Russ was one of these people, you know, has done many different incarnations of Trek. Jeffrey Combs has done every trek known to man, practically.

You went in for TNG, they brought you in for Nelix. So there is this core of actors that I think that the Trek management or the bigwigs would always call up and say, let's bring him in for this. Yeah, I did Deep Space Nine too. Yeah, yeah. Doran's directoral debut. Oh, really?

Yeah, yeah. Was he nervous? Was he all? He was nervous. I betty. Yeah, it's nerve wracking. In that generation, our generation, the Voyager, the Deep Space Nine, TNG, TNG, Enterprise, all of that. There definitely was sort of a type of actor that the studio liked to hire.

Now, it's funny, I just started watching Picard, I'll be honest. I just started watching Picard, and it's really interesting. I'm fascinated by it, actually, but it's really interesting to see Patrick Stewart. who sort of is one of those actors of that old generation, that type of actor. Well, theater trained, yeah. Theater trained and obviously a legend as Picard. But many of the other actors

that they're bringing in around him are not the same type of actor that would have been hired back in the 90s. So it's kind of interesting, like sometimes it works and sometimes I'm like, wow, you feel the change in management, you know, that, Creatively, they've kind of shifted gears

to a different style, and so it's interesting. But yeah, back then there was a type, for sure, type of actor. For sure. Did the producers and the writers ask you to watch the earlier episode, Phage, which introduces the Vidians as preparation for your work as Sulan?

Did you do that? They did not. Really? You know, but Gary, you know why they didn't. You know why they didn't? Yeah. They did not have it done, like... Oh, was it not...

Oh, it wasn't even ready at the time. They wouldn't get those episodes done. Ah, okay. I mean, how far before... I'm bad at math, but it was only three or four episodes before Cthexus, right? Okay. So it was probably still in the midst of post-editing, no effects were done. It just wasn't...

Because the two guest stars that played Videans in that episode have a very similar type of voice quality to... what you end up evoking on this episode. It's much more stylized, more theatrical, and also lighter in tone in tone. Like I found the one Vdian headguard to be so standing out from everything else because he had this very low resident,

almost like Klingon like voice, right? And then everyone else is talking like this, you know? And that's how the original Vdians were that we met in Fage. They had very theatrical and almost voices colorful. But they were weak also from the phage. You know, the voices came up as being affected by that. From the outside, looking at that, looking at the episode this morning. You're welcome. Yeah. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not big of watching myself, no matter what. I've done

like 400 something, you know, and it's very rare that I watch it. But, you know, I saw a weak man. I saw a man who was even though educated in terms of in terms of stature in terms of the way he carried himself that it it wasn't prideful it was more subversive in a weird way you you had you had your head cocked often to the side which I thought was interesting that you know and the way that the makeup sort of fell in with it I don't know if it was conscious or unconscious but it fits what your choice you were describing was. Mainly because because Roxanne was on the table. Yeah, that's probably.

We had to do that. And so as opposed to, yeah, it looked, you know. But I felt it was a little bit with the makeup and the disease and all of it, it just felt a little bit like weight heavy, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, but that's, it was simply because so I could look at her in a way. And Rick never said anything. I'm one of these guys.

Yeah, no, but I'm one of these guys. I try to be as subjective as possible and not direct myself and trust who's behind the camera that if I'm doing something strange, they'll say, hey, don't do that. Yeah, yeah, good. The casting process, was it pretty quick? Were they just like, okay, we're going to have you come in, read for us and let's do this?

Or did they just offer it to you right off? It was very, very simple. It was Junie. and Brad? Yeah, and who else? Who's the perspective? He had specs. I think his name was Brett.

No, Robbie McNeil. No, what was his name? That guy's name was Ron Serma. Ron Serma! Wow, Gary. I'm going to be both you and Brian's memory banks right now. Yes, thank you. You're younger, more virile.

better-looking version. So Junie and Ron were there, right? And then what else? Yeah, and producers were there, and they knew me. So it really was just a quick read, and then I think I was cast. Probably within a day or that day. Yeah, something like that. Yeah.

They moved pretty fast. The name Durst, who decided, does anyone know who came up? Because the only Durst I know is Fred Durst, the lead singer of that band, Limp Biscuit. One of the writers, a big Limp Biscuit fan? Is that why they chose Durst? I mean, I was Ken Miller wrote it, I wonder. Yeah, who knows? I mean, did you remember, did anyone come up to you and say,

well, you know, we decided on the name to be Durst because fill in the blank. No. We find out your first name in this episode. It's Pete. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. I think I say it, don't I?

You do. You do. Hey, Pete. They talk about that they're in the Avery, that you guys, that we are in the Avery system, which I wonder, was that a nod to? Avery Brooks subtly? I don't know. I mean, that's... I don't know. You know, the captain's log in the very beginning. So I don't know. I just threw that out there. Yeah, it's interesting, like, you know, to think back in the context of what was going on back then.

And, yeah, some of these names or some of those little details. Like, you know, a lot of fans know this, but on the, all the buttons on the ship are usually three letters. usually. It's like three letters plus three. So six letters altogether. Three and then a break and then three. The letters are the first three names of a crew member's first name and the first three letters of the crew member's last name. So as you look around at the buttons, you can go, oh, there's R-I-C-B-E-R. That's Rick Berman. There's K-E-N-B-I-L. That's Ken Biller. So they're all, every button on the ship has a meaning, was built into the crew list. you know, our grips and our electrics and our writers and our everybody.

Little Easter eggs for... A little Easter eggs. So I'm sure that... Yeah. I'm sure the names that they picked for this stuff had to have Easter eggs that, you know... I would imagine. You shouldn't... You should stop bringing schlub actors on and get the producers' writers in here.

No. Give you the real skinny. This is good. This is so good. All right. Anything else, Brian, that you can think of before we get into the story in the episode, like the casting, the getting the makeup developed or, you know. No, yeah, it was mainly for me, it was pretty quick

and it was the joy of sitting in there with tubes stuffed up my nose talking to Michael Westmore for three hours. But I had no idea. They didn't even show me photographs of A D. And they just said heavy prosthetics. Yes, yes. Was that the heaviest, even if that the heaviest prosthetics you've had of all the I've done? I've done a few, but that was, that was way up there.

What was the hour count for getting that whole thing done? Was it three, four, five hours? How long? They got, they got better and better at it as, as they do. But I think it was two and a half, three hours. It seems about right. Yeah, they, yeah. Did you do the life cast up in the shop, which was. down that alley and you go up the stairs and then yeah so yeah they would do a lot i mean and that paramount man i mean it's like that workshop's been there for ever yeah so that for any cinephile yeah and anybody i mean i don't know if did they shoot all the original there too didn't they or did yeah yeah so that who knows i think it was desi lou i think they were on the

other side of the lot. Desilu studios, yeah. Yeah, Desi Lou used to own, Desi Lou bought RKO studios, which used to be on the Gower side, Paramount. And then there was a wall, and Paramount was on the other side of the wall. And then when Paramount bought Desi Lou, they took the wall down and had a big studio. Just like Berlin. Yes. Finally, the wall at Paramount fell. The wall is down. Freedom. Exactly. You had guys scrambling it over and shot all the time. As soon as that first shot started with Roxanne, revealing her Klingon look, I thought the whole teaser was one shot.

Rick Colby did a beautiful job of revealing, you know, making it cinematic and he was just a super talented director. I thought as soon as that first shot happened, I'm like, all right, I'm in. It's dynamic. It's cool. look at her, she's a Klingon. And so reminiscent of Mary Shelley's Dr. Frankenstein really creating his, you know, and then and how, and I love Brian how at the end you're like, Belana Torres, you know, wake up.

I mean, you almost, we almost whisper that. And it's just, you know, you didn't take the old over the top, wake up, you know, I am Dr. Frankenstein. I mean, it was just, it was just the right amount of cadence and voice breath that you had. and it was brilliant and it really it sucks the viewer in and it's just right there you're like it's a beautifully fluid shot if you can tell a story in one as Robbie knows yeah tell it in one man yeah I mean why wouldn't you I just thought the shot was great I loved yeah what you did there in the background letting it all play as is one thing and being very mysterious yeah we don't the the shot if as I recall you never you don't see me right no just you just see a piece of me and it

It's all about her. It is. And that must have been shocking for the fandom, too, hey? Yeah. To see where are we, what are we doing? It's, I remember Roxanne was very anxious about this episode. Okay. She did not have confidence that this was a good episode.

Really? Yeah. Her work in the scenes with you will get to him, I think, is those scenes are beautiful. Yeah. Beautiful and human and full and rich. Do you think she was more anxious about playing the full Klingon self? I think maybe about she didn't want to go into all the makeup and do all that.

She knew that doing the evil twin shots where you've got to do doubles and stuff. It's just a lot of, but I don't think it was the resistance to the challenge of the hours and the work. I think it was a resistance to like the characters' feelings about racism and race and, you know, it was a lot about that. I don't know that she wanted to shine a light so hard and so, you know, concretely on that. But I think she was wrong. I think her, I think, and I think by the end, my memory is by the end of shooting it, she was actually very proud of the work she was. did and I think she saw the value in the story and boy is it resonant now hey I mean yeah yeah like watching it today how can you not feel in those monologues and in those those speed

the scenes with the two of you very moving stuff yeah I just I just want to say I think that the anxiety that she had was that this story was really hitting home for her a lot as be because I'm going to say this I'm going to go out on a limb here her maiden name is is is she's of Puerto Rican descent. Her mother and her father are both Puerto Rican. Her last name is Caballero. That's her last name. But she's never in the seven years that I was on the show,

she never really talked about, oh, you know, we had this great Puerto Rican, blah, blah. She never made reference to her own ethnic background. So I almost feel like there's a little bit of, you know, and this is something that I faced as well, being Asian American and she's Puerto Rican American, is that as an American, and this country has traditionally kind of marginalized those that are people of color.

You know, we definitely feel like there are people that have made me feel like a second class, third class, and sometimes a fourth class that is in with their comments and their racial epithets. And I think maybe Roxanne also dealt with the same thing. So as a child, I was always trying to be less Asian and more white, you know, and just sort of like distance myself from who I was. And I think I'm going to make this same guess that Roxanne really try to distance herself from her Puerto Rican, her Latina background. And this episode is exactly all about that. You know, it's about her talking about growing up as a Klingon with her Klingon mother on that colony where they were the only Klingons.

And they were different. And one of the things I remember my mom telling me when I came back from preschool, a kindergarten, whatever it was, and she said, how was your day? I answered her question with the question. I asked my mother, why am I different is what I said as a, you know, four-year-old. So, I mean, this is, you know, this is a huge theme in this episode. Yeah. And so I really feel that maybe the anxiety she had was when she was reading the script. She was like, oh, my gosh, this is kind of like my life, you know, in real life, you know, dealing with that.

Too close to home. Or maybe I'm wrong. Like for me, I'll talk about, oh, Chinese New Year's coming up. You know, I'll make some mention about my ethnic, my cultural background, but she never. said anything about her own so that's what makes me wonder if that's why the anxiety well i think there's a little piece of us in every character we do especially if you're a series regular it's natural the writers start to write to the actor you know yeah everything that that this episode pivots on in terms of shame and race and and acceptance and fear and bearing your fear and courage uh you know it this is a throw

back to that 60 series where moralistically everything. I was so impressed with it. Yeah, I was too. Now, you know? I do remember, though, Roxanne was very, she was resistant. And then I remember it's the only time, and I did a lot of scenes with Roxanne over the years, but it's the only episode I remember Roxanne before shooting day coming up to me and saying, hey, can we talk about these scenes and maybe read them and rehearse them?

And I'm trying to, and I remember seeing her script, and she had so many lines crossed out and new pitches. Like, we never changed dialogue on that show. Like, the script was, you said every of this, that period. And I remember specifically on that episode, Roxanne had rewritten a lot and crossed things out. And I don't know if she won those battles, you know, I don't know, but I knew that she was, it was part of her process to say,

let me, let me rework this so that it feels better. And now I'm going to go tell the writers, can we do this? And I believe she got a lot of those changes. That's what I was going to say. I mean, you know that that struggle is part of the process. And that banging, sometimes you have to bang your head against that wall for a while. But on the other side of it, we get this beautiful text. very, very, very, very, very for this performance filled with gravitas that she brings in those scenes, really remarkable.

Yeah. And both you guys were there. Was that her stunt double that would be in scenes with her or her stand-in? Who was that other person? I forget the woman's name, but there was a double that did the cling-on, full cling-on for the wide shots when it was 50-50. And I noticed, I remember, because I was shadowing, I was, I was going to work and watching Rick Colby directs because I was interested in directing. So I remember being there for some of these scenes. Okay. How'd that work out for you? I'm still trying to learn. Okay, go ahead.

How John Wu of you? So if you notice, I remember Marvin Rush talking about this, that when it was the wide shot, and the double would come down and move around, they were lighting it darker so that you wouldn't see the double. And if you look at the cut in those shots, the full clingon version of Bologna is a little in shadow so it protects for those wide shots where they have the double. There is one shot where they chose for an over,

over the, would you say full clinging on? when you say you never go full cling on but they did but they did but as opposed to going over the double they they shot the close-up of her profile profile and you could see that they had different and the lips were also a little bit different too yeah yeah there was a few shots in there where you could tell it was not Roxanne in both right but but you know that's seen in the cave where they're talking back and forth to each other. And usually it would be a single, single, single. But there was one point where Roxanne, full Klingon,

is about to leave and she's pissed off. And she starts mouthing. She says the line. And obviously, Roxanne had to loop that part. So it was literally the double saying the line. You know what I'm saying? Because now it's a two shot. You see full Klingon fake Roxanne, walking out.

And she's up up, so I thought, oh, wow, they actually included that and they had to have her loop. But it wasn't jarring. I mean, we've seen it a thousand times. And I thought that it furthered the story. And I bought it. Yeah, I bought it too. I did. So, Neelix has given Tuvok some soup, some traditional Vulcan soup.

Oh, yes. And I just got to say, why is Tuvok such a jerk? Like, Neelix is, he's so proud of this soup. he's made this from his, I mean, yeah, so he made it a little too spicy, but Tuvok didn't know that yet. Like, why not say, thank you? Like, why not be nice? Why is everybody so mean to Neelix all the time when he's just trying to make people happy? It didn't bug him, though. It didn't bug Nelix. And at the end, that wonderful part with Johnny Phillips sitting there, Ethan Phillips is sitting there and he takes a sip of that. He drinks it. He drinks it out of the bowl. And that whole like, oh, yeah,

just like home or whatever. Just like home. And then he burped or something. which was classic, right? And now we know, now we know that Rob, that Tom Paris loves P, B, and J, peanut, butter, and jelly. And then... Awesome choice. We know, and then, of course, for Chikote, what do they do? They say that his favorite is corn salad.

So is this another, a stretch at him being Native American and having, at Mays, as we call it? Yes. I mean, what the hell? I mean, Brian, you haven't been part of my whole first season of this show. and ranting about the horrible offensive stereotypical racism that they threw at this character of Chakotay. Chkotay. Without any real tribe or real authenticity, the props looked like bad souvenirs from

Disneyland. Like, you know, it's just very stereotypical. And it's just like whatever they decided, like in one part, they're referencing maybe one specific tribe. And then all of a sudden, you see stuff from like Inkin and Mayan, you know, and it's just like there's so many different elements that they just throw out there and just like, hey, whatever. And I have to say what is so incredibly refreshing that we have to go back into the 90s to see what a beautiful, beautiful tapestry that this franchise has always weaved in terms of race and gender. and it was great to see, it's great to see Kate Mulgroom.

You know what I mean? It's like they were ahead of their time in terms of that. Not that I don't disagree with. Sometimes you get hand-fisted trying to do the right thing. Yeah, it's always important. I mean, I guess the lesson for me here is like, you're right. They did so many good things in the 90s that were ahead of their time. And so they were imperfect.

We're always going to be imperfect, but we keep trying. We just kind of keep trying to be better and do better. Absolutely, man. I mean, here we are. Brian, thank you for being glasses half full on that and bringing up because it's so true. Because Robbie is sitting here, he's half empty on the whole thing. But it's out of context, and I did want to just bring a different perspective because I haven't been with you guys this season. And just to see it, that's one of the first things I noticed.

It's like every character. Every character, there's just this, it's the world that we live in, not the world that is where you guys live in right now. It is true. I'm in Canada, pal. It is truly the most diverse of Star Trek cast of that time. More than T-D, more than DS9. You know what I'm saying?

If you think about that. Across the board. It was literally, Star Trek was just like, watch this, guys. We're going to have all the main characters of all these people of color that you never see, you know, and we're going to showcase it. So as bad as the Chocote representation can be and as offensive as it is from our eyes in 2020 when we watched this still for 19 mid-noughties, boy, that was groundbreaking. It really was.

So we do, yeah, thank you for bringing that up, Brian. It's true. Sometimes we have to look at the glasses half full. That's true. Yeah. All right, I'm moving on. I'm moving on it. All right, we got to keep moving.

We got a long episode. Let's go. Let's go. So Janeway, I noticed, has gone back in this episode with her hair to the big, poofy bouffant bun. Like for a while it was changing, like the first season, every episode,

it was a different version of an updo. And they were all better than this one. This is the matronly grandmother. I call this the bun of steel, is what I said, the bun of steel. And I would joke about how I would say at conventions, I would say that,

you know, if someone said, Oh, Captain, the turbillift doors are broken. I say, stand aside, let me do it. And she bends forward like a battering ram and uses her head to, you know. Yes, it's a weapon. It's a weapon. So I don't like it either.

Not good. I was, yeah, very disappointed that we went. I mean, I know that that particular bun, I guess, you know, was the, was the survivor. Because it kind of, that was the most common look, I think, right, for the first couple of years. It kept resurfacing. like a cockroach. You just can't get rid of them, right? It just keeps going out. Yeah. Yeah. That particular bunch. She had some others that were, like, last week on, was it Cathexus, whatever last week was, she had a really cool, like it was tight. It looked feminine. It looks,

it looks sexy, but it was strong. It was like, it was good. It was good. Robbie. She wasn't, she wasn't vain about that stuff, hey? I mean, this is, they just threw this on her. One day she show up and they'd try this, you know, and Robin, we should start making designations, like Bun 3A, a Bun, four, you know, we should have different bun designations. This is ridiculous. There was an executive name Carrie McCluggage. I don't know if you remember that name, Brian. He was head of Paramount Television.

Yeah, he was head of the Paramount Television group. And Carrie's big thing, he had perfect hair himself. And his big, like the big, most important thing to him always was hairstyles on his TV shows. Yeah. He said if you can't get the script right, if you can't get, you know, if all things are wrong, just make sure one thing is right. Get the hair right. So he was all about hair. Everyone's hair had to be. And he always had opinions. And I think that it was Carrie McCluggage probably just not feeling like, you know, satisfied with any of these looks. Can we, you know,

he probably had notes like, can we see a different bun? Yeah. It sounds like he had a bit of a finish. Maybe. Maybe he did. I'm just saying. Yeah, everybody's got their thing. Everybody's got their thing. Mine's baseball hats. Yeah. You don't want to know my. How funny would that be if we found out after the fact that Kerry McCluggage has all the wigs of Janeway at this house like that. And he's just taking them. He's like, oh yes, here's this one. I love this one. And then he's like this hair finish guy. All right. So then we go to the bridge. You go to the bridge and there's a and they're they're heading back and is it Tuvok that sees the caves that moved or is it you? You're always discounting the fact that Kim did.

I know. I'm always trying. I'm pretty sure it was Kim. I think it was Kim. But the point of this is so yeah, the caves are moving and then you scream out, Bradcombs. And she's like, what? Tourette's. I'm sorry.

Yeah, you have a Tourette's moment. Yeah, following Nelix. But you come up with this idea, which is very, very clever. So again, you're coming up with good ideas. Thank you. Subspace transponders, drop those down to help facilitate an emergency beam out if we needed. I mean, it was, I just remember this episode, which is mouthful of techno babble for Ensign Kim. It was like, bleh.

You had one line there on the bridge, and I meant to write it down and quote it. It was a very difficult line, but I didn't because I was into the episode and I was watching. But I was like, oh, that's, that's a good one to use as an example of very hard technical battle. You did. You had a bunch of it. Yeah, you did rock it. It was tough.

All right. So, bun of steel, yep, breadcrumbs. And then we went back over to Sulaan and Roxanne and Balana. One thing I noticed that was very interesting was Roxanne really transformed in. to, I noticed her Klingon, her performance of a full Klingon. The tempo and the cadence of the words, the way she broke things up was so different. And I was not a fan of Star Trek when we started this show. I would not have known if they had asked me to play a play on. I just, I'm, I'm curious, I don't have the answer, but I wonder what Roxanne did to model. To model.

that performance on, you know, because it really was transformative for her as an actress, and she did a great job. Yeah, I thought she did too. Yeah. I would venture to say she probably did a lot of research. You know, she's very thorough. She probably researched it. And also the cadence changed because of the teeth, too.

You know, that sort of lent to the different delivery and the pacing of her lines. A dialogue was partially because of those teeth. But yes, she did embrace her cling-onness. full as anyone would have, right? So, very impressive. So I had one note that I wrote down talking about the contradiction and the juxtaposition of the high-tech

and the antiquated. So here we've got these Videans who are like, he has this incredible genitron. But he has to, he has to, he has to, he has to. I was like, well, that's an cheesy name. But also, he has to aim it like a dentist's x-ray machine.

It's like, don't you have buttons, remotes for that? Can't you just go and then it's there? But no, I had to bring it out. Turn your head. We're going to get your right bite cuspid. Maybe he wasn't really the head surgeon. Maybe he was an orthodontist. I think he was an orthodontist.

Maybe he was a little to the left, please. It's exactly right now. don't move now he goes out of the room and hits the button yeah oh my god well throughout the sea there's a couple of those those things you're talking about you know yeah it's like it's like you're you're a thousand years in the future and and yet they haven't cured male pattern ball that was a cool set though I remember when I was shadowing because I didn't have any scenes I guess at the very end but I didn't really have any scenes in that set per se

but I was watching and observing Rick Colby and I was just so impressed with that set and in fact I think I made a note about the prison set when you were doing the role of Durst and you were in the prison set that was a great set too it was really the way that they had the grates

in the lighting and I just I always from a from a just a broad strutely I always enjoyed the episodes where he had those kind of really textured, dark, you know, sets as opposed to these sort of brightly lit, you know, main street of a planet that looks like a shopping mall. Those kind of sets were not like... How many stages did you guys have? Because you would, because for these sort of special set

pieces that they would create, I mean, those guys, it's amazing. They would build it, tear it down, and move something else in. Yeah. They usually built our swinging. sets, things like that, either on stage 16 or nine. We used to have the room to build a corner of that. That's where a sick bay was and engineering. And then there was a corner that eventually became the holiday. Just all swings, yeah. Okay. So they bring swing sets over there. Yeah. I love the scene when you guys are being herded into the barracks area. And that one Videen guard shoves Brian in the back like that. And he falls into it. And just, it really, reminded me of like a Scooby-Doo card, like Scooby-Doo and Scrappy-Doo, because like the height difference

and you turn around, and Scrappy-Doo is always trying to get into a fight and Brian turns around and tries to tussle with the guy. And then Robbie says, just remember, they're the ones with the guns. That's one of my do-overs. My son saw me do that. My son's train and boxing. And when he pushed me and I went back at, they were like, can I say what they said? How G-rated is this? It's like, dad, you fight like a bitch. I was looking at it. I was like, yeah, I'm more of a lover than a fight. That was a nice shot, though.

The way that that shot sort of developed and we, you know, the camera sort of panned over and all that action happened. Then we ended up at the bunk and it sort of came under my arm. I was, you know, my arm was up high and we're kind of looking around. like this, and then it pushed into a profile close-up, ultimately, and then that became the coverage. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I just, I, again, I thought that was a master class that Rick Colby taught in terms of

directing and the shot design and staging and all-camera movement. Yeah, he did. I remember, like, I would take notes, and I watched that episode as he directed it, it was just, it was a master class, very well done. I mean, I love, and I love that when a director can construct. a shot that tells a story and then it and and it transitions from a master so we know where we are into coverage the it's and and he did that all through this episode all throughout yeah so the rescue team comes down you're going to you're going to leave some uh you're going to leave some

uh breadcrums and and so you see chikote and tuvok sort of walking across this cave and it looks massive. You see foreground rocks and then all of a sudden, Garrett, you step into the foreground and a close-up and you're punching some buttons and setting your what are they called? They're called subspace transponders. The subspace

transponder. But my takeaway from that moment was a couple of things and I think I always look at things like a director these days, but we had one set of caves. It was basically like that room where the transponder

were getting set down and it had a little balcony and then we had a short exit at one side and a longer exit at the other and that was it and we shot the same case for seven years and so I was very impressed because I remember the size of that when I looked at Rick's shot again the way he designed the shot makes it look like this massive beautiful underground thing and it's not it was not that big like he was showing every inch of If he had turned the camera a little bit, you would have seen off the set. Over the seven years, Ensign Kim has done a lot of sticking stuff onto walls and bulkheads and turning them on.

And I don't know if it happened in this episode, but many times that double stick tape didn't do too well, and I'd stick it on, it would just fall right off. And I had to cut, do that again, you know. So there was, you know, there's some fine art to getting this just right. Yeah. And a lot of, Kim. Especially in rocks. I mean, because, you know, they're.

It's not a totally flat surface. Yeah, it's not a smooth surface. That's right. The other thing I noticed about those caves is all that dripping water. Did you notice dripping water around? No. There was a lot of dripping water early, and then it sort of stopped later on, but in that first sequence that was dripping water everywhere.

Okay. And I was like, I wonder why they did dripping water. And then I realized it's the same caves week after week after week. So they would change some detail to make it seem like a different set. So this week, you know, there was dripping water. Next week, they might add cobwibs everywhere. Right. Could they light it?

Could they light it differently? Yeah, they may light it. Blue, very blue in this. Yeah. They'll do things exactly like that. Like it's got to be some, they have to come up with something week to week or else you start seeing the same little 20 foot caves and the same colors. The barracks are so damn close to the operational controls.

And it's, there's no, there's nothing like shielding. There's no type of like protection from like any prisoner can walk up and just start tapping away, which is what Balana does. And it's like, geez, these Vdians, how advanced they are. Wouldn't they have just hit a button that said, force field, you can't come in here? Yeah, they would have done that, but they left everything wide open. Even a sign that said keep out. Keep out.

Yeah. Anything. Beware, beware of Vidian. dog is what it should have said right there, but no, there's nothing. And then that whole scene where, Robbie, you're sitting there with Bologna and the Vdian guards come in and you're, and you're like, hey, she's just taking a rest. She's sick. And then he's like, well, then we'll take her back to the barracks. And you're like, no. And then Belauna says, but this is the funny thing. Belana turns to you and says like, it's fine. It's fine, Paris. Maybe I can figure out how to, you know,

get into the controls and contact the ship. And she says it right in front of the guards. The guards are right there. And I'm like, don't you know how to go, Soto Voce? Can you go a little bit lower in voice? Telling Robbie what you're about to do, which is clearly being heard by the guards, which are like one foot away from you. So that was one of my little weird things I noticed. I loved what Roxanne did with the human version of Bologna.

It was so vulnerable and so you just empathize so authentically with what she was doing because it was such great work she did there. And yeah, I thought that vulnerability, and it made me think in a bigger picture as we've been watching so many episodes. Every time you see, you know, in this first season of Voyager, every time they allow, the writers allowed a character to really go deeply in some vulnerability, like the doctor did with Kess and some of those things, or Kess gets vulnerable, or Janeway gets vulnerable, whenever a character gets vulnerable, that character grows for the audience. exponentially. And so this was such a great opportunity. Like without this story, I think Balana may have, you know, grown for the audience's experience and feeling close and attached.

It would have been a much slower process. This just like shot her so deeply into the hearts of the audience, I think, because you just see that vulnerability. And everything was, he allowed it, number one, for the two of you to be close. There was never any need to project anything. So you had this little private conversation that we were able to eavesdrop on, which was amazing. I think I put it down here.

I said, great scene, Roxanne, Robbie, touching on the shame in reference to race and appearance. And I just want to go back one sec because I think we passed over it. It really hit me. I said, it said, I have infected you. And I said, hard not to feel the resonance of the phage, COVID, a guy who's out there trying to find a vaccine. There was something, what I love about this is that there's no, it's not like good guy, bad guy.

Yeah. That we were sort of let in on this being's need. And I just, I felt, again, with everything that's happening now, I felt like that was very resonant for me. Yeah, I'm so glad you brought up that moment because I didn't write a note down. And the reason I didn't is I was, it was such a kind of shocking moment. I think I was literally taken aback because, of course, I know Bilan is not going to die. Because I couldn't remember this episode, I was like, oh my God, I forgot that you had infected her with this horrible. And there you are looking like a monster and looking, you know, the makeup. And I feel like the Videans were the best

villain that we created in seven years. I wish they had become our arch nemesis throughout the whole seven years because it's the kind of villain that has a I think we talked about it a little before the show Garrett but like there's a horror

quality to it. There's there's a there's a just a tragic sadness to what they're going through and then for him to say you know how will you know doc if I if I can survive it oh because I am infected you with the face.

What? Yeah. It blew me away. I also wrote down extreme excruciating joint pain. Yes, you did. Which in my age, all of our ages, that all felt joint pain. Excruciating joint pain. Okay.

And? Exactly. No, I was just going to say that if they ever make a, you know, if they're ever able to do a Voyager movie. would be great to bring back. And Brian is still alive at the end of this thing. So he could definitely Yeah. He's broken. Brokenhearted, but he's alive. You killed your love is what happened at the end. Yeah, yeah. I didn't get any chance to experience that voracious sexual appetite you were talking about. Now, that was awkward to me. It was. That was a little awkward. It came out of nowhere, too.

For me, I was like, wait a minute. What, she's not, oh my God, she's saying. It happened so fast. Yeah. Well, I mean, she's trying, she's trying anything to get, to get loose, right? She's thinking if I can seduce this guy right now. There's another one of those contradictions. So we've got these incredible shackles.

And just by shaking the table, the bolt can shake loose. Oh, but I dare to think about what would a Videan phallus look like? I mean, would there be 17 versions? I mean, like pieces of fallaces of all these aliens. I have one right here. You have one right there? Wow. And he pulls it out.

That's amazing, Brian. Amazing, yeah. Kept it all these years. And then here's the other note I have, Robbie. Yeah. So when he comes and steals Durst's face. Yes. Why didn't he take you?

Like, you're so much better looking. You've got this beautiful blonde-haired God, Adonis. No, we're going to take the small Jewish guy. That'll do. That'll get her. That's what I said. What did I put down here? I was like, why didn't they take?

Why wouldn't they take handsome Paris's face? And Paris volunteered. You saw him. I know. I'm the senior officer. Don't take Durs. Take me. And then they're like, no, we want that guy.

We want him. Stupid, stupid, stupid race. No one. You told us to go get the best looking guy. Well, will this do? You were a very handsome young man. It's funny to see both of us.

I mean, yes, we were. Now, Brian and I became very good friends, maybe five years ago on a show called Girlfriend's Guide to Divorce where we sort of reconnected up in Vancouver, but crazy to look at young versions. We were all hot

young things. Right? Did Nancy watch it with you? Did you, Nancy's as well? No, Nancy. Nancy was, Nancy's on vacation with her girlfriend. She'll be back in the next couple hours. But she has seen it. She has seen. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So she's in the midst of Girlfriend's Guide to Vacation right now is what she's doing. Okay. So there is a, I'm going to digest for a moment, digress into looking at old things. Just a couple of days ago, there's a director named Paul Lazarus. Did you ever work with Paul? I've worked with Paul. Paul was a theater director in New York. That's how I first met him.

And then he directed a lot of comedies and TV shows. And I heard from Paul about a week ago. He said, hey, I was cleaning out my house. I found this videotape that was the production of Antigone that I directed with you at Lincoln Center in 1985, I've got a videotape of that production. Do you want to see it? And I was like, absolutely. So I just watched it a couple days ago.

And it's just crazy, this old VHS crackly thing of this production. Like, how lucky are we to have some, like our lives still recorded? I mean, I guess a lot of people do in their own home movies and things like that. But I just felt like how lucky that Paul had found this one of my. classmates from school. I forgot she was even in the production and there she is as a young, you know, we're all our young 20-something, 21, 22 years old. Oh, that's amazing. Going back to what Brian was saying about why didn't they take the handsome, good-looking, Mr. Paris. This is, Brian, this is a comment that I've heard a lot at conventions. Fans will come

up and say, the Voyager cast was just too good looking. And it's really weird because when I watch, you know, when I watch Roxanne on screen without her cling on makeup, she is, is a really attractive woman. She's a stunning woman. And if you look across the board, right, if you look across the board and you're looking at Chacote, he's a really good looking Latino guy. You're a good white dude, right?

Janeway is that she has a really pretty face, you know, for an Irish-American. Across the board, we, you know, I didn't, I never thought of that of us being like the best-looking cast. But in reality, they really cast some people that really are very handsome face-wise. You know what I'm saying? But more than anything else, you guys also had.

They cast actors. They cast actors that had some gravitas, which was like, which is always what I, I get it. Yes, they're great looking. But back in the day, you look at the original show, William Shatner was held up as they were all beautiful, right? I mean, they were all. Yeah. So yes, I agree with them, but so what? so what can you can you be too good looking i got to say not only were you good looking

brian but you're very sullen i'm going to say sullen okay no now you've got me all confused garrett su lan su land yeah he was very sensitive he was very sensitive he was he was i think he was yeah almost two almost too sensitive i wish i think going back going back I would have liked to sort of spined him up a little bit. Oh, okay. So you go steal Durst's face, which is really your face. Yeah. And I feel like they hired an actor who could look like Durst,

and then they put a whole prosthetic of your face on your face. Yeah. Was there any of your real face there? Or was it because it seemed raised up? No, no. What they did was they just did a life mask of me. Yeah. whatever that was.

And they just took that prosthetic of Brian's face and put it right over, right over the face. That I did not know. I thought that was your actual face peeking out and everything else was put around it. No, that was actually a prosthetic of your face on your face. I was much thinner than that bloated mask. Oh, dare you, Garrett. It was, I could tell, it was, look, and it was split over here, it was all kind of, yeah, it was like, it was like wide and flattened and, and like, like I am now, but not that, exactly. I'm sorry, Brian, please forgive me.

No, please. This is so much fun. So we go back to the ship and then, and then they've done some analysis and they realize that when this thing changes, there's a micro, fissure and we can maybe again i'm going to say captain janeway makes a risky choice i'm really i've had enough of her lately watching these episodes she's putting people at risk let she's like maybe if we time it right we can beam somebody through a microfisher and we'll have to change the amplitude of the transporter beam and yeah you may these guys may be dead and now you're going to kill somebody else sticking them through a microfisher in a in a amplitude party i don't know robbie robbie

without my notes i'm so sorry all i can do is criticize your pronunciation of things but is it is it fisher or fissure i'm gonna say fissure no i'm gonna say fissure microfisher like microfisher i'm gonna say fissure okay if you what you know what robin you want to juz it up you can juge it up. Yeah, I'm going to juge. I'm going to go with some jush. Fisger. Okay. Fissure. So, so, they go through the microfisher. Yes. And they catch, um, some fish. No. And then Chocote. Yes. Yes. Gets turned into a Vodian. Vodian Chacote. I totally forgot about that. I forgot about that too. Yeah. I did. So Chichote had to put on this stuff. Mm-hmm. Put Yeah, I never remembered that.

Yeah. And who'd have thought that Tuvark was so good with a needle and thread? Yes, exactly. All of a sudden he brings it like, I just whip something up in the back. They're like, damn. Except they even said, they said some, there was some joke about being a tailor. Yeah, it was. Yeah, Paris says it.

Paris is like maybe you can be a, didn't you, do you say something? Yeah, I think so. He said maybe you could be the tailor or something right now. That could be your other occupation. And it fits perfectly. was so good. Who knew he was such a good cosplay creator, right? I made a note about, and I may have mentioned this already, but just how seriously Roxanne took all this. And I remember her, she had a ton of questions. She would, she drove Rick Colby crazy. I'll be

honest. Colby was like, he was so frustrated with her. And I think now, now I have a memory of Ken Biller being on the set. And that is such. a rare memory on Star Trek that any writer would be there. Yeah. But Ken was, as we said earlier, bottom rung. So he was a junior guy, so he's got reasons to want to be there and look out for his script and make sure it's done right. But I remember Roxanne talking to Ken on the set.

I remember them huddling and rewriting things and Ken having to go to the hotline. Remember, we didn't have cell phones really. I mean, I guess we did, but there was a stage phone that was literally a red color on the wall and you would go pick up the red phone and as soon as you picked it up, it would start dialing the production office. Yeah. And so you could call the writer. So if you had

a question for the office or for the writers or anything, you'd go over to the wall, you'd pick up the red phone, and it just starts ringing. Yeah. To call the president. Yeah, and I remember Roxanne did that a lot. this episode. Rick Colby was apple. He was very frustrated around them. Yeah, we talked a lot when we were in the chairs and I had worked with her before.

We did an episode of a series called Equal Jones. What? You remember Equal Jones. Oh yeah, yeah. Incredible. It launched a ton of people. So we had worked together before and but I do I do remember that she, I absolutely, I absolutely remember that this was, that she had lots of questions.

Lots of questions. But it's, it's a revelation for me because was, that wasn't her normal M.O., was it? No. No. So this, obviously, she was shocking the monkey a little bit with this. Yeah. I mean, she, she always was prepared and professional and she did her work and her, you know, her homework. But this was like nuclear version of that.

nuclear version of that. This was, this was beyond any kind of preparation. This was constant second guessing and, um, it was a huge episode for her and, and she really had to lay herself open. Yeah. So by the way, they're in the caves and, uh, and Klingon cooks a rodent, she says. She said, she said this rodent. It was clearly, Rebecca looked at it. She goes, that's chicken. That's a chicken breath. Come on. Our bone was slow. Yeah, we all know that is not a rodent. Not only does it taste like chicken, but it looks like chicken, too. I made the same note when I had notes, and I said that, boy, that rodent must have been so big.

It was similar to the Princess Bride, where the R.O.U.S.'s rodents of unusual size. It must have been massive. We got this whole breast of chicken that you're eating. Fantastic. So the ladies come back and they start playing with the computer and, uh, The warning goes off, and there's a little bit of a shootout Chocote shows up, and then Doc. I'm going to say Doc. I'm not going to say, S-U-L-A-N, because I don't know how to say it.

So the Doc comes in, and he fires his weapon, but Bala, Klingham-Belana dives in front and is mortally wounded. And that, like I said, clearly before Brian, I felt this doctor was sensitive, and he was emotional and he was vulnerable and and uh i felt all of that so so well you did such great work to bring that kind of empathy for that character as evil as he was i my heart broke for him and then when you killed this woman that you had strong feelings for and that scream was just heartbreaking so it was an exercise and trust to when you can't hear yourself yeah you can't really see you just sort of, you, you really just sort of throw the stuff against the wall and hope that something

sticks. Yeah. Well, it worked. It stuck. It was good. Hey, we did skip one thing. When, before the cave, before they eat the chicken, that's really, the rodent that's a chicken, I loved when Klingon Balana throws human Balana over her shoulder. Oh, yeah. Just triumphantly walks sound like, look at my prize, is my human self. I'm going to take this damsel in distress away. It was great. I love that shot. It was a good point. Yeah, it was good. Oh, did you notice the very end scene where Boulana is talking to Chikote?

And they have the close-up on the Chakotay, and they come in with that native flute music at the end. I don't know if you caught that. Don't get me started on the native stuff. You're just pouring gasoline on the fire, Gary. There was no flute. There was no flute. It was a violin. Sorry.

Okay, good. I loved all the stuff of the disintegration of Boulana and it's sort of smacked of Freud and the ego versus the id and all that, all that great stuff. One thing in that scene when they throw Boulana back in or they grab her. What's with like the Vidin, Shecky Green? He says, we're going to give you a shower and a hot. meal. Oh yeah. Where are you taking me? Shower in a hot meal. I didn't I didn't know if that meant like that was like a code for last meal like you're gonna organ yeah the organ transfer. Yeah well like well yeah because in it snacks of what are we talking

we're I'm taking you to the Holocaust to the gas yeah yes yeah a little bit of that but but it was that or it was like you know walka walka walka walka it was It's Fossey Bear. Yeah. I don't know. It, yeah, it bumped me too. I don't know exactly why, but it's, when those kind of things happen, you're like, your radar goes up.

And then here's one more question. Yeah. What about Durst? Like, what? Like, Durst is dead. One of two people and. I know they never talk about it. Nobody pours, you know, some malt liquor on the ground for Durst.

I know. Nobody says, oh, there's, it's like everybody's. I know. You're right. I'm going to say, cheers and here's to Durst. I feel, yes. Last week, we watched Kethexis where Durst was introduced. Yeah, seen on the bridge, one scene on the bridge where the director had decided to stage us all kind of huddled in a corner.

It's a foreshot. It's like Durst, Paris, Kim, and Janeway, and we're all. We're all, and you can see that like we were told to like find the camera and And so we're all sort of, like, leaning over this way or that way. Yeah, if I turn this way, in my head to be right here. Yeah, it's how to work, yeah. Every actor's dream, though, man, to be on that bridge and actually get hit by something and have to do the, the same. I thought that, yes, I had such trouble with that.

I thought I was, I was asking you, like, what, like, what do you, what do you move? What do you, like, I think, I think I remember us talking about that, like, because you were nerd. And we had, we had, we've gotten reprimanded for bad shakes after the pilot. We did. We got sent a whole tape by Kim Friedman. Next generation doing shakes and, and, and, and, and Faser hits. DS9, DS9. DS9.

DS9 clips, yeah. Kim Friedman and she just told us, you know, I'm directing your episode when you come back from break after shooting the pilot. None of you know how to shake correctly. It was a really aggressive letter. I got a, I got to, that's insane. If I could, if we could, if any, Anyone could find that letter. Oh, I wish I had that letter.

You could find that somewhere just to be able to show... I must have fired up the softball league, huh? But I tell you what, though, when you... I remember that on the bridge, when you said, like, how do I do this? It made me feel so good. I felt like a veteran all of a sudden. I'm like, oh, let me explain. Watch this.

Yeah. Brian, one thing that I asked, Robbie, when we first started this, I asked him, what was your first impression of me when you first met me? And I'm going to tell you what mine was of yours. And so I want to ask you, Brian, when you can came on the set. What were your first impressions from Cathexus when you were first introduced when you first met? I mean, obviously, you would work with Roxanne Dawson before, but you'd never worked with the rest of us as far as I've concerned. Is that correct? No, no, I don't believe I'd ever

worked with anybody else. Okay. It was a, it was a fan, I mean, you know, it was a fantastic set. I really loved it. I will say I remember this conversation that you and I had, Garrett, which it warms my heart. I still tell it. Because we were, how many episodes

in? We were... 12, 13. So, so I was asking you, like, how is it? How is the marathon going? And you were like, oh, it's great, it's great, it's great. But, you know, I'm I'm waiting like when is the other shoot going to drop like I'm nervous that I'm not that I said dude

you're gonna you got seven seasons of this I called it I said I said you don't really do you not realize the machine that you're now a part of you were like well I'm you know I'm worried I don't know I'm gonna have to go back and get work or you know and I was like dude you're you're at Star Trek I remember that conversation so I was I was anxious and anxious about the future is that what it was you were anxious about the future like i don't like i mean this is i love i love this i don't know if it was your first regular role but it is it was yeah yeah and so you had no idea of what um what what's next like yeah like i i love the feeling of this and they said dude you trust it you got at least seven seasons i you guys were incredibly welcoming i i feel like

the sign of a of a great set and and I've had a one and a two by my name before and it when you when you're one of those people you have a choice to welcome um your day players and your guest stars in um or you can be very standoffish and there was nobody I never felt that I never felt that in any of the incarnation so if a fish smells from the head they were doing something right because you guys all were very very welcoming there was there was still laughter it wasn't a heavy set like i've worked on madman i love that set but it's a heavy set yeah there was a real sense of camaraderie um you guys were still early enough in the run where nobody was like uh got this everybody was trying to to make this thing work what is this thing. So yeah, it was, it was, I enjoy coming to work every day. Awesome.

When you talk about sets and series regulars having a choice of either being welcoming or the other way to standoffishness. I obviously have never experienced a standoffishness, but in terms of, I had a friend of mine who said he was working on ER and he said that was the most standoffish set he had ever been on. Like none of the series regulars talked to the guest stars at all. It was just like, mm-mm, we don't have time you. So that to me is definitely a very foreign concept to think of all the series regulars being standoffish like that. So I'm happy that we were very open and welcoming to you. And I always felt that our set was, had open arms policy where we never, we never treated anybody

like crap. All the bad stuff. All that stuff is all based on insecurity. And if, and anyway, I understand it. I never take it personally because I, when I, I show up on a set, I show up, you know, just I'm so happy to be there. I love working. And when I, when I don't see that, it's, it's an aberration more than, you know. Gotcha. It should be, it should be a wonderful experience every time you walk on. Every podcast, we talk about the underlying message. Gene Roddenberry really, he had the, you know, the overlying synopsis where they go down the planet, this happens, yada,

but there's always something that moral yeah some moral you know a lesson to learn exactly so what is the lesson i i think the theme for me is in balana's story and it's i think it's to have true awareness of all the parts of ourselves and to be able to accept all the parts of ourselves is the only way it's like balana has a line she says i've never felt so peaceful at the very end when she's back on the ship she says She says, you know, after what I've been through with my twin, I've never felt so peaceful at peace in my body, in my life. So I think that's the lesson.

It's like you have to not only find a way to accept the parts of yourself that you may not like, but you've got to find a way to love it and accept it and come to terms with it so that you can have peace because otherwise you'll never have peace. That's my lesson. Brian? I think that's beautifully put. I would say the same thing, that it is about a reclaiming those parts of ourselves that brought us shame until we accept those parts of ourselves

that we cannot move forward, we cannot be whole. And also there's something to be said about bearing one's fear. there's a fantastic play that George Bernard Shaw wrote about Napoleon called The Man of Destiny and he has this fantastic speech in there and it's all about that that every human being has these fears these doubts and what makes us heroic is not that we don't have them but that we in fact have them acknowledge them are responsible and bear them. So that was very resonant for me

throughout this entire episode. Yeah. What about you, Garrett? I'm going to say you guys were so eloquent in your responses that I'm going to pass to you guys and just, you know, I agree with that. I mean, really, that end scene

when she's talking to Chocote, she talks about, I feel incomplete, you know, without my other Klingon half. You know what I'm saying? So, and then she spent all that time, trying to get away from it and ignoring it and sadisticing herself from that, you know, that uncouth Klingon side of herself. And now she realizes at the end of that episode that, hey, that's part of me too, right?

We all have our good sides and our bad sides, but that's what makes us who we are. And you're right, both of you. If you don't embrace that side of yourself that you're ashamed of, how can you move on? How can you be a complete human being? So thank you for both of your eloquent answers for me not as much. And I have a part two. And the part two is breadcrumbs. All right.

So that is the end of our show. Thank you again, Patreon patrons, for our recap of faces. And thank you for our special guest, Mr. Brian Markinson. Without you, this show would have not been as good. Oh, yeah. This is a great one. This is a really fun show. Very good show.

Thanks, Brian. We'll see you guys next. week. All right. See you guys next week when we review later. Jitrell. See you guys.